Thinking out loud -- help me work this out?

[CornField]

I've had one of those "bumblebee" ideas buzzing around my head for a couple of weeks now. Every so often it gets close to being a complete thought, but then it buzzes away again.

Here's the gist:

The primary advantage the republicans have over the democrats is organization. Republicans have fostered and tended to their church connections and have used them to their advantage. Most church-going folks are in the building at least once per week. Most churches put out a local bulletin *and* most denominations have their own bulletins/newsletters.

Most people who go to church state that it is as much for social reasons as it is for spiritual ones. Such people want friends who share the same values system; want their children to have friends being raised in families which have similar beliefs. Through church affiliation, individuals branch to sister charities (often run by their church or a group of churches) which include food pantries, helping hands, low-income child care, tutoring, etc.

If the republicans had hand built a system of communication and manipulation, it would not serve them any better than the American religious system. Very few who attend church on Main Street actually get involved enough to participate in county, regional, state or even national conventions. (I was raised in a protestant Christian church. My father was a Deacon, my mother was a avid volunteer, my brothers and sisters all attended -- two of my brothers grew up to attend seminary and are now ministers. Even with all of that, I only attended ONE national religious convention.) It is a true case of the bottom rung of the ladder reacting to the top rung, without really knowing what the top rung is doing and why.

Remember the stuff with Ralph Reed and Jack Ambramoff? Ambramoff funneled money from the American Indian Tribes his firm represented to Reed's firm (Century Strategies). Reed then used his influence to ignite the Christian bases where casinos were either currently operating or being considered. Basically, the individual congregrations in those areas were USED and MANIPULATED by the higher-ups within the denominations.

Having a system of communication... being able to hold political rallies at least once a week under the tax-free guise of religion... is a hard system to beat. Still, I think there is a way.

The democrats need:
* A group/organization which meets regularly
* A membership which is loyal
* A membership which shares at least 2-3 core beliefs with the party
* A group/organization which isn't necessarily political in nature
* A group/organization which can branch out into other areas of the communities they serve
* A group/organization which has already taken the time to organize itself -- locally, regionally, on the state level and on a national level

Do you know where I'm going yet?

Many, many years ago when Unions (yes, Unions!) were first organized their purpose wasn't just to organize labor. Unions were a major social force in our nation. Democrats need to help Unions return to their roots -- Unions need to once again become a major political and social force in this nation. It would be a win-win situation.

[SheilaT]

1. One of the problems with Democrats

is that there's a perception that most, maybe all of them, are godless atheists. In reality, they are nearly as likely to be churchgoers as Republicans. But they're far more likely to belong to a denomination which allows them to think for themselves more often.

(Actually, I'm of the opinion that ALL religions are essentially cults, and that they ALL require giving up thinking independently, but some denominations are simply more overt than others in these things.)

You're absolutely right about how Republicans -- and more to the point conservative Christians who currently control the Republican party -- have built their base over many years.

Somehow we have to take back religion in our own way (although I'm obviously not the one to do that). And we have to find a way to get more of those who identify with Democratic values (which is actually a majority of people out there) to understand that it is the Democratic party which serves their best interests, not the Republicans.

Personally, I don't see that happening until things get much, much worse.

Sorry to be so negative, but it's what I honestly think.

[CornField]

4. I'm saying that for us to win the religion fight - we need to abandon it

Only those democrats who are Christian will have any pull within their own congregations. Those of us who are pagan or atheist or agnostic or whatever have ABSOLUTELY NO PULL with the Christians in our nation.

What we need to do is circumvent the churches. And, not to be alarmist, but we need to do so quickly. Remember the whole "Faith-Based Initiative"? Where will Americans be forced to go for help if the New Deal is dismantled?

We need an alternative social force which stands up for everyday Americans WITHOUT religion. We need the Unions -- and since they have been dropping memberships, they need us too.

[nashville_brook]

16. i think you say it better here -- :)

"We need an alternative social force which stands up for everyday Americans WITHOUT religion."

Lets rethink "unions."

when you define it as a social force unconnected with religion, it opens up the possibilities. think of all the ways people come together -- UNITE

art and music (anyone remember the 60s counterculture?)
food supply (co-ops, farmers markets)
housing and community concerns
schooling
work
healthcare

these are ways that people naturally unite to fill needs -- we need to take them back.

and by "take them back" i mean democratize them. UNIONIZE.

it's a great start and a powerful metaphor.

[Hugin]

18. Very good...

Below I was trying to think of a list of
common concerns...

Your list is great!

art and music (anyone remember the 60s counterculture?)
food supply (co-ops, farmers markets)
housing and community concerns
schooling
work
healthcare

The 'art and music' item stands out... The arts are
invariably the first victim of a rigid ideology.

[nashville_brook]

29. and also the first to rebel

imy husband is a rock musician and we've often commented on how the music scene seems to get better in repressive times. satellite radio is a godsend! thank you underground garage!

i also worked in the christian music industry (something i swore i'd never do) art directing one of the big mags -- the xtian music industry is such a SCAM. having this network of venue and audience is really unfair. add to that the notion that kids HAVE to purchase xtian music or else they are going to hell. yikes. it's just freakin wrong.

i've often said that BARS shouldn't be the only venue for indie musicians -- but it's near impossible to make a living as it is. but what if there were Community Unions that threw events in the local park where families and kids could come out.

there's something here -- in all of this -- that i think KIDS are the key. we have to unionize families and neighborhoods because that's who needs it most and where we can find natural affinity.

[Hugin]

32. I think Community Unions are a wonderful idea.

I'm old enough to remember when unions worked like unions...

There were student unions which encouraged students to get
together and work as a whole.

Yes, KIDS are the key.

For this type of thing to work... Somehow people need to be
pried away from the Corporate Media. (Using a crow-bar I guess)

People need to re-discover the joy of first person interaction.
To learn that they aren't alone... There's many people looking
for something to do and some way to contribute.

[CornField]

33. The GOP has grabbed hold of "family" values -- we should grab "everyday"

"Everyday Values"

People need to eat -- every day

People need healthcare -- every day

People need to make wages -- every day

People need clean air -- every day

People need clear water -- every day

People need security -- every day

People need emergency services -- every day

Etc.

[radfringe]

38. once again, with feeling and louder

be it religion or "values" - repugs have NOT DEFINED THE TERMS.

they sling warm-fuzzy-emotionally-charged rhetoric around - accuse people of hating america or hating christinity because they disagree. they have wrapped themselves in the flag and secured it tightly around their waists with a bible-belt.

but the consistently fail to DEFINE THE TERMS.

WHAT DO THEY MEAN BY VALUES? WHAT ARE THOSE VALUES? WHOSE VALUES ARE THEY REALLY SHOVING DOWN OUR THROATS? WHAT DO THEY MEAN BY CHRISTIANITY? WHICH VERSION OF CHRISTIANITY? ARE MY OR YOUR VALUES AND RELIGION THE SAME AS THEIRS?

before you can have a debate or discussion of any substance - the TERMS MUST BE DEFINED.

DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS
DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS
DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS DEFINE THE TERMS

[CornField]

39. I thought I did so above

???

[radfringe]

40. you did

but my post was aimed at what the DEMS (as a party and political entity) need to do

sorry for any confusion

[blondeatlast]

47. I've often thought about this as I'm spending another hot Saturday knockin

on doors.

Bring Dems TOGETHER. Picnics, social events, open houses.

Instead of singling Dems out with door-knocking campaigns, bring them together.

Why we haven't learned this from the labor unions is beyond me.

But then again, I'm not that radical, but I wish the Dems would NEVER send another damn intern to run my district. I simply loathe them for their inability to listen to the locals.

Something great for the kids will always bring them in. I know a lot of non-sectarian churches are doing this now.

[fishwax]

24. unions and the religions can even work together

I think yours is a nice idea and that unions should definitely be a social force. In the town I grew up there was a devastating strike in the town's major industry which lasted for several years. That union was definitely a social force, and enveloped not only members of the union but also family and friends.

I'm not entirely sure we should abandon religion, though I do understand you're argument there. But eventually the two can even intersect. Once during this ordeal our local Catholic church had the opportunity to bring in one of the luminaries from the Polish solidarity movement (I don't think it was Lech Walesa, but it might have been his successor Marian Krzaklewski) who had wanted to visit the area. The church was PACKED with union folk and friends, and most of them weren't Catholic. It was beautiful.

In keeping with your "just talking it out" theme, it seems like a lot of churches will have similar goals to the unions in terms of standing up for working people and poor people. When unions are a social force, as you're talking about and as was the case in my hometown, that makes "taking back the church" a much more realistic proposition.

[CornField]

25. I'm not thinking that it never will happen

I just don't think the "taking back" of religion should be our primary focus. I believe that will happen when Christians can see (through actions) the difference between lip service and real commitment.

I need to do some more reading about the birth of the Unions. If I remember correctly, many of today's social & ethnic organizations sprouted from either the Unions themselves or the Union leadership. (For example, the NAACP was one such organization. It came into being through people who found common ground within the union and wanted to work together to fulfill a need.) And, if you look back at the birth of Unions I think you'll find that they were born of many different political beliefs, joining together for the overall betterment of society.

I'm not saying that we can get every one of our issues on the backs of the Unions. I do think we can take a handful of core issues and build upon those. They have what we need -- organization and people. We have what they need -- numbers & issues.

We can be and should be a community that takes care of its own -- without reservation or stipulation.

[CO Liberal]

2. That's Why Republicans Are Anti-Union

They've attacked the unions for years because the unions have supported Democrats. That's the whole reason behind the push for school vouchers - to break the Teachers' Union.

[Hugin]

3. Interesting point...

Unions and working people.

Instead of building up our religion... Maybe we should
concentrate on the wallets and lunch buckets.

Good strategy.

[ewagner]

5. Good...we're finally thinking

instead of just reacting.

Your post gives us a good platform to discuss the options and I really appreciate that.....

first instinct is to try to beat the repubs at their own game....mobilize within the more liberal christian churches and create an "our church people against their church people" scenario. That's damned dangerous....

The next instinct is exactly what cornfield suggested, use UNIONS as an alternative to churches. Not a bad idea. But remember, the union movement in the nation has been decimated by layoffs, outsourcing of traditional manufacturing jobs and also splintered by the Repubs with their "moral values"/divide and conquer routine.


Sooooooo..........

in order to make it work, the first step is to rebuild the union structure....strengthen them....

how?

I don't know....

more discussion is welcomed.....

[Hugin]

7. First step...

Organize people based on common needs.

Who says unions must be based on the jobs they hold.
It can be anything where a group of people are interested
in protecting their collective welfare.

Credit "Unions" for example.

[nashville_brook]

17. good one! i've worked in finanacial services, and

you think the repukes are pissed about Unions -- you should hear the talk about CREDIT UNIONS! you would think it's the end of the world that people get better rates in small banks. they are working OVERTIME to overturn some of the legislation that permits credit unions to offer money for cheap. as a matter of fact they raised the amount of money a small bank has to have on hand to somethiing like ten-fold a large credit corporation like Citibank has to have. talk about an upside down world.

credit unions are cool because they keep money in the neighborhoods where the money is earned. that strengthens our cities and improves quality of life in urban areas. it gives the little guy just a smidge of advantage. ergo, they must die -- according to the bush crime family.

revolt -- community credit union for everyone!

and what would a HEALTHCARE UNION look like?

[Hugin]

19. 'what would a HEALTHCARE UNION look like?'

Well, formerly (before so-called reforms) it looked
a lot like Medicare/Medicaid. But, the prescription
drug bill pretty much gutted their ability to bargain.

*sniff* *sniff*... I smell a Fristula.

[nashville_brook]

30. could there be independent healthcare unions?

a cooperative model of healthcare service distribution?

way out in the deep end here.

[Hugin]

31. Sure, I don't see why not.

That's what the HMO's were supposed to be... Turned
into some kind of a monster eventually.

But, I still believe in the premise.

[Hugin]

6. Kick

Kind of at a crossroads here with the NC action.

I agree... To win the religious battle we must abandon it.

[leftofthedial]

8. definitely

Workers in this country are oppressed, exploited and hated by the ruling junta.

[Hugin]

9. Recommended... n/t

Help... Pondering needed.

[ewagner]

10. Unions aren't th only

institution capable of organizing and bringing about change. Political parties themselves are supposed to focus people with common beliefs.....

maybe we need a NEW kind of institution though....what do you think?

[Hugin]

14. I agree...

Perhaps moving away from established institutions or
collecting existing institutions under new circumstances.

[Just Me]

11. We really do need to build a stronger network. *nominated*

Maintaining a regular and active communication line is the backbone to expanding and strengthening such a network. It's not as if there's nothing to work with,...good grief, there are literally thousands of independent organizations which share core beliefs and common causes. It's really a matter of creating a communication chart linking all those organizations and setting up the most efficient means possible to exact a consistent, active and meaningful communication,...well, and some hard work *LOL*.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. not to 'generalize' or sterotypte...

all 'republicans' or 'fundementalists'- but it's been my own personal experience that the kind of 'gathering' you refer to (mine was a very ...intense evangelical, bible church) usually 'weeds' out any folks not willing to 'buy the package'-

For example, i became very involved with a family from another church that believed STRONGLY in 'hands on' missionary work- Doing things for folks in other countries that improved thier 'physical' lot in life- "Bikes for Haiti"- shipping all sorts of 'cast off' and donated bikes to Haiti, where transportation often meant 'work' and hence food- actually going there and training folks in maintance as well. i wanted 'our' congregation to let this family speak and present thier 'vision' and was told that it wasn't the 'kind' of 'work' that 'spread the gospel'- that began a REAL eye-opening for me- which went on, and grew, and eventually i saw that there was clearly 'no place' for me, and my 'free thinking' or 'against the accepted dogma' that the congregation had adopted- They didn't 'ask' me to leave- (though they did ask some people to leave, who didn't 'fit') but i could no longer sit in silent submission-

That's the problem i believe with non-fundementalists- We tend to embrace that 'evil'(sarcasm) notion that there are many points of view that have validity, and deserve listening to, and sometimes becoming enlightened by- so, i'm not sure how we get 'free' thinkers to join a 'herd' mentality as easily, or effectivly as what i hear you desiring-
there MUST be a way- but i'll be damned if i can figure it out-

The pre-war protests of people from very diverse backgrounds, ages, and places, SHOULD have had more 'clout'- i don't understand this world- i don't understand how denial, and lying are so tolerated by so many otherwise 'good' -'intelligent' people.

[Hugin]

13. To get them together they must have a 'common need'...

Health care for instance... Most people need it at some
level and logic says as a group they have more bargaining
power.

It's also something people of diverse personal views can
work together to achieve.

Things like that.

'fair pay' is another.
'credit reform' is another.

Let the self-interested get together and work on their
self-interests.

I agree that for some reason the Fristers get together
to politicize everything.

"If you're not with us you're against us." and all of that.
I doubt you'll ever get rid of that mentality. What I do think
is possible is directing that fervor at "real enemies" such
as predatory credit practices.

[Finder]

15. What the conservatives have done...

is make elections ISSUE BASED rather than platform based. The strategy works because the potential voter focuses on one issue only. If someone is not normally into politics there is no way to get them to back a candidate unless there is an issue that is important to them. Overall, the average American is apathetic. Religion is effective to bring an issue to light since most issues being touted these days are based on religion precepts or issues that have been hot buttons in the churches themselves.

I agree Unions were the stronghold of the Democratic party in the past but again, because of the issue(workers rights), not the party platform.

Fact is, whenever a movement--be it churches or unions--gains momentmum and power they become the sandbox of corruption.

Just look how the latest pet issue of the administration is failing. Social security is not a religious issue. Young people may like the whole idea of having private accounts but their apathy will not get them to any polls. Of course setting the churches against the program set up by so-called godless commies/socialists gets the attention of the misinformed extremists, but most see social security as a positive.

Mainstream Republicans have welcomed the increase in power of the party but they are not thrilled with the conservative agenda and way they have hijacked the party. It really isn't a Repub/Dem prob but a Conservative vs everyone else issue. If I was in the Dem leadership I would call their bluff and let them bring the whole Jesus thing into the light. After a few battles, which the conservatives would lose, they will go back into their corners.

Perhaps taking away the property tax exemptions is the way to go. The Dems could make the point that if ministries and clergy can own private jets and drive in chauffeured cars they can afford to pay taxes. Like the rest of us, they can list the charitable contributions and get exemptions that way.

[ewagner]

22. Calling their bluff

is a good idea.....

I wonder what would happen if a line were drawn in the proverbial sand and christians had to take as stand with either the moderates or the extremeists?

Interesting proposition........

[Hugin]

20. Kick

Organization/communication is critical right now.

[Hugin]

21. kick

Coming up for the third time... Then it's time
to swim with the fishes.

[Sapphire Blue]

23. One such organization...

ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, is the nation's largest community organization of low- and moderate-income families, working together for social justice and stronger communities. Since 1970, ACORN has grown to more than 175,000 member families, organized in 850 neighborhood chapters in 75 cities across the U.S. and in cities in Canada, the Dominican Republic and Peru.

ACORN's accomplishments include successful campaigns for better housing, schools, neighborhood safety, health care, job conditions, and more.

ACORN members participate in local meetings and actively work on campaigns, elect leadership from the neighborhood level up, and pay the organization's core expenses through membership dues and grassroots fundraisers.

ACORN has constantly challenged the traditional notions of what a community organization is, and its family of organizations includes two radio stations, a voter registration network, a housing corporation, and several publications.

http://acorn.org/

[Festivito]

26. The primary advantage is from illiscit funding and willingness to steal.

The vast right-wing conspiricy is not for conservative control, it's for war profit. Zealots are pawns. Easily bought pawns.

Buying Rush and the other pundits is easy for them now. Give small stipends to new pundits, supply up-to-the-minute spin, and harass anyone not following RW scripts.

Buying politicians has alwaya been easy. Sprinkle with well-meaning morAns feeding them "special" reports. Throw in a few fancy parties. Done.

Buying zealots is easiest. First get unsuspecting secretaries to give out the mailing list -- for something like a pro-life isssue. Then invite them to Promise Keepers for indoctrination. The ministers will have to repeat the populist messages, or attend hundreds of complicated questioning. Add some watchers who will attend off and on several churches making visible donations.. a cross, a swingset "for the kids" and zealots WILL NEVER BELIEVE A DONOR WOULD BE A PLANT, becuase he donated. And when he likes what deacon Qui-et says, you'd just feel his humility.

For every dollar we pay in tax, Bush borrows an additional 25 cents, a 25% tax increase, net tax increase. The raise goes to his rich buddies and destroys SS giving more to his rich buddies, while raping our resources until the day he and his buddies rule us and live from global investments.

It's illicit money. We have truth and trial lawyers who'll lose money if we get universal health care.

But, still, we can organize.

[CornField]

27. Are you saying that dems simply aren't evil enough?

Or maybe that we won't be under-handed enough?

I agree that the republicans have both used and manipulated religious people to their advantage. This is not, however, what I'm proposing at all. I do not wish to use Unions... at least, not in the realm of use/abuse. I want us to form a truthful and mutually beneficial alliance.

[ewagner]

28. To some extent,

the previous poster was right in saying Democrats aren't evil enough... although he/she didn't come out and say it directly. We don't think the same way Repubs do....we are not so hell bent on winning that nothing else matters...(that's probably why we're Dems)

No matter what group becomes the vehicle for liberal/progressive ideals, we're going to have to be more Machiavellian about our tactics...

[Festivito]

37. Naw, Good can triumph over evil.

Actually I paralelled your assumption that the "primary advantage the republicans have over the democrats is organization." Instead I say that the primary advantage Republicans have over Democrats is illicit money.

Republicans buy organization. And they buy destruction of other organization.

We need to out-organize them faster than they can replenish their illicit money supply.

Unions? Okay. A union/lobby for people. (It seems we need to lobby our own representatives.) A place for discussion? Great. I'd love to see it work long enough to have good effect.

Pointing out their inconsistancies and responding to their lies has not been working.

So, where do we start?

[CornField]

45. I'm going to start by doing some research

I have a friend who's been with the UAW since the beginning of time (at least it seems). I want to pick his and other "old timers" brains about the unions, their beginnings, and so-forth.

I know here in our little piece of Iowa there are eight unions I can name off the top of my head. What I don't know is if those unions are connected at regional, state or national levels. (For instance, are the local pipe fitters union and the local electrical journeymen union both a branch of some larger national organization?)

My knowledge of unions has been how they relate to women's studies/history. I think I need much more generalized background. If anyone is interested, I'll report back.

[Festivito]

46. Do well, learn well, and be well.

You may find unions to be a tricky quagmire. The connctions between unions, cities, and states may exist, but, the actual communication may depend on personalities, culture, and history.

They can be infiltrated in order to disrupt the flow of good information or to push bad information. So, many are needfully wary.

The bane of all such egalitarianism is the small group's ability and avarice to take a little from each to accumulate much, and to then continue.

No one can outline all the pitfalls ahead.

Good luck.

[CornField]

34. Kick

for the evening crowd. I'd like to get more ideas swirling around.

[suegeo]

35. Something interesting I read about Islam

I hope I don't insult someone by repeating something I probably misread, and misunderstood, but here it goes anyway.

Before Mohammad established Islam, he traveled alot in trade caravans and he surely knew about the new Christan religion and its Virgin female icon. He saw that religion could organize people and could be used to get people to act.

To get his own people organized, Mohammad set up a religion where people would gather 3 (?) times a day to pray. Then, the praying men would be naturally gathered to discuss other things. So according to the author of the report I read, Mohammad came to a similar conclusion/observation as this thread's author did.

I also read that Mohammad was largely bankrolled by his very wealthy wife and that she was very instrumental in the man getting his power. Her wealth might have been a remnant of how property got passed down (through the female) before the boys set up their patriarchal system where they owned women and childrn. Again, I'm showing my ignorance here. And also, I read this a long time ago, so I'm forgetting alot.

Again, I don't mean to insult someone's religion because I am so ignorant of history or the religion. I'm just picking my brains about stuff I read a while ago.

As for a solution to the craziness I see in society:
I think we need to encourage a more female centered society by empowering women, including the right to choose whether to be pregnant or not. This includes changing FROM a male-oriented, "there is not enough of things for all of us" TO a female-oriented "the earth is our mother, there is enough for everyone." This was basically an idea from pre-historic times, when property passed down through the female, because the boys just couldn't be sure if the kids were his or not. But a woman for damnwell sure knew if she birthed a child or not, so property could definitely be passed down through a child she knew was hers.

I'm not suggesting Amazon-women type stuff, just a better balance between the male/female. As it seems ying/yang is pretty whacked right now.

If I can find the article in YES magazine that explains this concept better than I can, I will re-bone up on the author's thesis. And maybe post it here, if I find the time and don't forget.

ON EDIT: The article is "Beyond Greed and Scarcity", Yes magazine, pps. 34 to 39, Spring 1997. The archetype that should be encourgaged is the "Great Mother" archetype. And we should be pro-Godess, rather anti-godess like we've been for 5,000 plus years. There's more to the article, but I wanted to get this in before this posts' editing session ended.

Here's a link to the article. I'm reading hardcopy and the electronic version on the net --thanks Al Gore-- seems to match.

http://www.transaction.net/press/interviews/lietaer0497.html

Oh and we should also take what we know about individual and group psychology and use it to better our lives, and not to terrorize and manipulate the shit out of people who don't know as much about psychology as us. (Dr. Steven Cambone, shame on you.)

[CornField]

36. I'm glad you found the link

I agree that everything seems to be off-balance lately.

[bobbieinok]

42. in any small town there are a nearly infinite number of women's groups

lots are church related....but there're book clubs, mothers' clubs, LWV, AAUW, etc

Eugene McCarthy's wife wrote an autobiography that contained a lot of info about his race for the presidency in 68....she talks about how the strategists kept looking for local groups/wanting to create local groups and never noticing all the women's groups already in existence

[bobbieinok]

41. the granges---the rural centers of populist politics at end of 19th centur

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PowerToThePeople]

44. Bah, how many times does it need to be said

NO amount of organization will help us. Voting reform is the ONLY way we will get back into it.

That said, this Tuesday is my local democrats meeting in town. Looking forward to it.