What will come first, the CRASH or the REVOLUTION?

[passy]

What will reach breaking point first, the economy or society?
1929 or 1917?

[Freedom_from_Chains]

1. That's a tough call. Only time will tell. n/t

[rooboy]

2. The crash.

And if there was television in 1917, Russia would probably be humming along quite nicely with the Romanovs being interviewed by Sean Hannitski on "The Bear News Channel" :)

[LaurenG]

3. Whichever one comes first I feel

The other will follow closely on it's heels

[passy]

19. But would a revolution and change of government be good news.

The independent economists would surely say that a US without * would probably be doing better than one with.
Trickle down economics is just a stupid concept that only the rich that it benefits believe in.
Look at what these rich people do, they get tax breaks that they spend on themselves buying luxury stuff that is rarely ever made in the US and if they own manufacturing companies they outsource all the jobs overseas to make bigger profits.
That is simplifying things, but just the size of the budget deficit is enough to scare any economist.
A *-free economy is bound to be safer.

[bush_is_wacko]

4. There is a small revolution taking place right now. BUT

IMO, the typical American has to be on the verge of losing everything before they take the time to ask WHY they are on the verge of losing everything. There's gonna be a crash. I just wish I knew how to avoid being involved in it! I have a hard time moving retirement accounts and 401K's out of the market "just in case." And really, where the hell ELSE would I put them? I'm not gonna be stuffing money under my mattress and I'm not sure it would do me much good in the event of a crash anyway.

[passy]

7. Just do what the rich are doing.

Actually I don't know what they are doing.
Probably investing in soup companies or stocking up on petrol or gold.

[mcscajun]

12. Where else? International funds.

I have a friend who's done just that and her investments are ticking along quite nicely right now.

I'm very nervous about the current market and the dollar slide, as I think anyone is who's been paying attention. Money in the mattress? Never.

[passy]

15. At least make sure you keep the mattress...

...when they come to repossess your house.
Actually does anybody know what is better during a crash, to have debt or savings?

[mcscajun]

41. Nobody touches my mattress!

:)

If you don't have debt, they can't repossess your house. I still have some, so they could. Not that they'd want this old wreck, but they can have it; I can see families consolidating and living under a common roof again, as was somewhat common decades ago during the Great Depression.

In general terms, I can't ever see debt forgiveness during or because of a crash, and even if your creditor goes under, somebody assumes his position as your creditor. Bad news for debtors in bad times is the standard. So savings is definitely better, just keep an eye on all your savings, investments if you have any, and the institutions that hold them for you. Be prepared to pull out if necessary.

All that said, a little hard currency (gold, etc.) isn't a bad idea either. Not that I have any.

[bush_is_wacko]

23. Your right. That is where to invest it, but when do you pull it out?

THAT is the key here. I'm afraid I'd be stuck with no access. Of course in all honest, I'm afraid leaving where it is will wipe it out completely. I don't even have that option ons some of it anyway. It's NOT under my control.

The reality is though, when the crash comes banks will do the same thing they did before. They will close their doors and tell everyone to go home because their money ain't leaving those accounts! Either you got your money out before the crash or you suffered along with the rest of the country. It's all a guessing game, but I'm pretty sure Greenspan just put the Bush administration on notice that it's GOING to happen SOON.

[mcscajun]

42. See my post #41

It's a tricky business, to be sure.

[SlowDownFast]

46. What particular statement(s) or action(s) leads you to this conclusion?

quote- "It's all a guessing game, but I'm pretty sure Greenspan just put the Bush administration on notice that it's GOING to happen SOON."

What "notice" are you referring to?

[bush_is_wacko]

54. Greenspan made a statement this week with regard to the deficit.

He has once again changed his direction with regard to the effect out of control deficits are having on the economy. THIS time though, he really didn't beat around the bush (excuse the unintentional pun here) and he did NOT later dedicate any praise to the administration with regards to this issue. I read the statement in my local paper, but I'm sure it is also available on line somewhere.

It has been like a yo-yo to follow this man's economic judgment calls from month to month, but for some reason, I got the impression that he was NOT going to back out of this OR later revise his assessment. Just a feeling really. Sorry I can't be more specific.

As far as PNAC goes. THAT is a subject so incredibly complicated I would take up pages and pages to explain it. Google PNAC or even look through DU archives on them to find some really good links to the information. It is really far better to read the information from reputable sources than for me to tell you what I think or remember about them. In all honesty, I would most certainly mix up facts , names, dates and conjecture at this point. I am already way on board with the PNAC is taking over the world theory and don't even bother to read the terrifying implications for the most part anymore. They really ARE that terrifying. I think they could lead to insanity if you were to concentrate solely on the ramifications of what they are attempting to create. Basically ONE global society with ABSOLUTE financial and military power over every citizen of the world. Bush Senior referred to a "new World Order" and a "thousand points of light" in his speeches. What he was really referring to is PNAC's "global economy." Junior does the same thing with his "spreading democracy" rhetoric and "axis of evil" bullshit. The reality is they are attempting to rule the world the same way Hitler was, but with technological advances and the invention of the CIA and other secret agencies and the combination of wealth distribution around the world they have a FAR better likelihood of succeeding than Hitler did. BTW, they have been working at this since BEFORE Hitler. At least as far back as WWI. Every attempt they make they get a little closer to realizing their goals. IMO, it may be too late to do anything about it this time.

[AntiFascist]

55. Excellent post on PNAC!

...bypassing all the tinfoil and conspiracy theory. It's not too late though: divide and conquer.

[passy]

56. then these people have crap economists

the last crash brought about Hitler, Stalin and FDR.
The kind of people who do not really fit in the PNAC scenario.
I think the problem on the world front is that Old Europe is led by a bunch of idiots who have no guts.
Blair is *'s lapdog, Chirac is a corrupted SOB and well the Germans are still feeling guilty about WWII.
My new slogan is "the East is the new West", the world in the future will be ruled by the majority, the Indians and the Chinese. About one human out of three is one or the other.
The US has destroyed itself with its useless wars, utter dependence on oil and its enormous budget deficit.
When the crash comes you can expect your new boss to be Chinese and his secretary to be Indian.

[bush_is_wacko]

60. Just read about PNAC. You have part of the picture to be sure...

But you need to understand PNAC WANTS to collapse our economy and EVERY other economy. That is the only way to create their new "global society" and their new 'global economy." Economy collapses DO bring about Hitler's and Stalin's. That is ALSO a part of the goal! THEY have been and will continue to be the backers of Hitler's and Stalin's from now until they get that "global economy."

It doesn't matter who the next Hitler or leader is going to be, only that THEY will be able to place that person anywhere they see fit and back that leader with everything in their power. Financial, military might, you name it. Our dependence on oil has been the deliberate act of politicians who know full well what it will do to our economy.

If the goal is to collapse the economy, everything you just said makes sense to THAT end. It is NOT just the US either. It truly is a "global" goal. PNACer's are everywhere and they DO hold GREAT political power.

Check out the Bush family. They have been involved in supporting the bad guys all the way back to WWI as I mentioned. I think the history likely goes back even further than that. But understand THEY aren't necessarily the people behind the plan, just the face PNAC wants to show you.

[femme.democratique]

37. Why do you assume that other countries will be immune?

I have news for you. If the US, the largest consumer economy on the planet, collapses - we're taking the rest of the world with us. Our economy is responsible for the international economy running smoothly.


Buy guns and gold, palladium, platinum....

[mcscajun]

40. I'm not assuming they'll be immune. And long term, nothing will be safe.

But right now, international funds are outperforming most domestic investments.

[nashville_brook]

22. can you switch to group real estate investments?

i forget what the type of fund is called -- it's not like you go out and buy property, you buy into a fund that buys property.

at least with real estate there's security. the bottom won't totally fall out and you won't lose every penny.

i think too, being aware of a coming economic supershitstorm, we can do other, creative things to make the ride less uncomfortable. co-operative community structures can be planned now to brace for things later. forming groups that can share child care and do microinvesting are good starts.

[bush_is_wacko]

25. Real estate is NOT going to be cash money IMO when the bottom drops out.

I really get the impression this "crash" will have different, more profound and across the board ramifications. The hiding money under the mattress thing really did save some people last time, but I get the impression the world market for American money will NOT even exist from all I read.

I'm not sure other countries will be interested in trying to rebuild America by buying up property either. I know it sounds insane, but I get the impression the goal is to crush America as a super power. 911 was the first "mission accomplished" goal. Invading Iraq and sending all our troops there was the second goal. All that remains now is to crash the economy and strand our troops in a foreign land at this point.

America then leaves itself completely broken and unable to recover. I'm thinking along PNAC/global-economy lines here. If the goal is to create a new "global economy/society" they have to make sure American money cannot override "global" money.

I have a hard time explaining this because it is so complicated, but I hope I sort of explained my fears.

[nashville_brook]

27. i'm right there with you

i totally get the PNAC evil vision. i also think they have screwed it up which leaves us open to economic threats.

shoring up money that is already invested in our cancerous markets is way less desirable than actually having a few dozen acres and the ability to self-sustain thru cooperative, community-building inititatives. local farming. co-operative business. room mates.

[bush_is_wacko]

35. Yep, that's sort of how i see it.

I am lucky enough to have a MASSIVE family of self-sustainer's. I'm talking biological family not communal. My honest opinion at this point is the "survivors" of the next crash will ultimately be those with the ability to grow things and hunt things and defend that existence. The "end of days" theory the fundies are currently pushing around doesn't actually mean the end of the earth like people think it does. It means the end of the "industrialized" world we have created over the centuries. Without a doubt I believe there will be war and famine and that PNAC will have all the financial and military power they want. But I also believe those that find a way to live outside that world will ultimately "survive!"

Yes, this sounds INSANE and I realize that, but I think it is ALSO insane to think power hungry "global world leaders" have any desire or have given any thought whatsoever to what ordinary nobody's are going to do in their "new world order." Other than that they are to be used as slave labor but are perfectly expendable otherwise. They don't even attempt to hide their contempt for "ordinary guy."

[nashville_brook]

43. what some folks call survival, i prefer to look at as, just better

tribes. urban tribes, whatever.

when i was in college i did a creative thesis one year on something i called The Homeboy Theory. it was a bibliographical resource and call to re-imagining self-sustaining life. my thought was you could very easily form small urban co-opts. microbusiness aimed primarily at sustaining a social group.

at the time i was in an emerging music/theater/publishing community. social life centered on a handful of music clubs and food was never a problem b/c people working in the restaurant side of the business. i'd like to take this to the next level one day with a recording label now that we are all settled down.

on another note -- i just returned from seeing part of the extended "family" in florida, and i'll be damned if they weren't on this wavelength. had quite a nice network of child care, food, and money-making enterprise.

evolution -- it's what the theocrats don't want any of.

[bush_is_wacko]

47. Are you a fan of the Ishmael series?

My all time favorite books! Real truth about human existence and what and why we have become the way we are is too be found there. Daniel Quinn is the author. I don't think of it as "survival existence" either really. It is the way humans were meant to exist. All the other has been nothing but a miserable failure at human existence. When humans realize that tribal communities are there only real hope at birth to death security they will have returned full circle AND reached the only possible UTOPIAN existence they have any real chance to atain. The minute we turned over the food and the belief that our happiness depends on human "managers" we f'd up!

[nashville_brook]

66. i will look up on amazon!

i loved Richard Callenbach's Ecotopia and Starhawk's tribal novel, The Fifth Sacred Thing.

when i was in graduate school our philosophy and sociology departments seriously took on the question of community and attempted to form a pragmatic vision of new comunalism. one of my professors had been an early member of The Farm here in Tennessee. after many years, the farm turned out not to be the utopia he had in mind. i think the problem was the living in close quarters. so we about to "find the contours" of the social/economic model for an urban, suburban collective. we are like bears, we need our private space -- our personal nest. opening that up causes all kinds of problems. i'll leave it at that.

something i've noticed over time is that people/ couples who all move to another city and end up living close are more successful over time than loners. i grew up at the beach in florida and my next door neighbor moved down (retired) with a number of other couples who moved at the same time. 30 years later they still hang with the other folks, eat with them, share a history, greive with them -- it's the stuff life is made of. family: which means you can count on these people for "intimate" social/economic support. the world isn't us against them -- 100 percent competition. the successful combine resources effectively in a sharing model. another great book is The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler.

it's all coming back to me -- i'm going to have to work on this for it's own thread. we had such hope in the 80s. we saw transformation and said, "yeah, cool." Not, "oh shit, not again."

[BamaGirl]

69. Wonderful book

I love The Fifth Sacred Thing and her other fiction book Walking to Mercury (think that was it?). Unfortunately, I let someone borrow them. Borrowed books never return. x(

something i've noticed over time is that people/ couples who all move to another city and end up living close are more successful over time than loners.

This is interesting. We got out of the Army here and later when two couples we are good friends with got out, they came back here. (None of us are locals.) We don't live particularly close, but we definitely keep each other sane here in fundie-land lol. ;-)

[nashville_brook]

70. i think you know what i mean by "successful"

after i posted this i thought, "that could be taken the wrong way."

by successful, i mean that as these folks age they remain in happy, committed relationships and seem to enjoy better health and state of mind.

one of the cool things about the military is getting this sense of extended family with couples you're close to. maybe your kids were the same age, or adults worked on the same missions -- it builds an "intimate" life beyond the genetic family.

i don't know what i'd do without all our friends who moved to nashville the same time we did. not that it's such a big city, or impersonal -- it's the everyday stuff. dog-sitting. people helping out when someone gets sick. kids that play together. holidays together. taking each other to the gym or having weekend nights in the backyard. i know these folks have made my life richer and i only hope they feel the same.

[BamaGirl]

71. This is exactly it

not that it's such a big city, or impersonal -- it's the everyday stuff.

The 6 of us have been "together" about 9 years now, all off active duty the last three. My husband is the only one still in (Guard now). So as a group we've done childbirth/c-sections, fertility treatments, cancer 2x, civilian transition, deployments, surgeries, all kinds of car and house repairs, not to mention group house hunting lol. I'm very close to my family, but none of them are close. There is no way we would have stayed here if our friends weren't also here. And no way I would have survived the last two deployments sane without them either lol.

[nashville_brook]

72. this has been such an inspirational chat

idea i worked on back in college coming to life in such simple ways. there's got to be a Chicken Soup book in this. or one of those little inspirational bathroom books.

funny too how much of the "stuff" that makes family has to do with health and womens' health in particular. childbirth, childcare, etc. it takes a villiage. always has. our urban culture presents opportunities for anomie and family alike. it's up to us to choose which.

last thanksgiving i sent out an email to my tribe "family" to honor our bond and give thanks for our friendship. everytime i talk to someone i sent that out too, they remark on how true it is and how empowering it is CHOOSE your family. most of us are pushing 40 and facing those "family of origin" issues. you aren't stuck with the one you are born into, and the better you are at re-making family, the better environment you will create for your children, so hopefully WE'LL be there in their tribe when we are old and fragile.

[barb162]

67. I understand what you're saying; it will be very different

the other countries are laughing at us right now, spending ourselves into oblivion with that stupid ass war. As soon as we go down the toilet, they take over, all they have to do is sit back and watch now. We cannot resurrect ourselves as no one will want to lend to the biggest debtor nation in the world that can never pay back all the bucks. So they won't lend. I suspect also that the Mideast will start to demand a different currency for oil rather than a fairly worthless dollar.

[Unions]

30. Do what I did

$10,000 converted to Euros and placed in a bank in the EU just in case. That way if the economy goes to sh*t in this country even more I'll have some money that's worth something.

[enid602]

63. Euros

Why is putting money in a foreign bank account preferible to investing in a foreign bond fund. Consisting of Euro and other non-US, developed world assets, these funds should rise or fall depending on fluctuations in the dollar.

[bush_is_wacko]

64. I have thought about doing this, but I have also considered the fact that

Euros may drop just as quickly once our bottom drops out.

[FreedomAngel82]

58. I agree

I think there will be a crash for sure. It will come fast and out of nowhere. The Bush administration has hold on the media so nobody will know about it unless you keep up with everything. The average American is so busy with their day-to-day life. Only I wonder when it'll happen.

[Warpy]

5. No revolution while the majority is comfortable.

They're already suffering cognitive dissonance. The economy's near the tipping point, and once it totters, anything's likely to happen.

I doubt we'll see violent revolution, though. At least I hope not.

[passy]

17. It totters easily when it's on stilts.

The near 0% interest rate has built a society that depends on cheap debt. Just imagine if the interest rate reaches between 5 to 10% will anybody be able to keep their houses or cars?
And when you're on stilts the fall is even harder.

[Telly Savalas]

45. And if the fall comes people will just point fingers...

at undocumented workers, gays, or some other easy scapegoat. Think 1933, not 1917.

[greendeerslayer]

6. Crash

A 1917 would require a political movement. We don't have that.

[passy]

9. Yes you are so right.

At least before 1917 there was some signs of public opposition to the royal family and political parties to express the people's views.
And they also had charismatic leaders like Lennin and Trotsky.
To most people Michael Moore is the closest we have to an opposition figure, that says a lot.
Even if there is a crash who will be the next FDR?

[Doctor_J]

10. Next FDR? Many candidates

Dr. Dean, Barrack Obama, Barbara Boxer, Thom Hartmann, ...

[nashville_brook]

24. don't be so quick to dismiss the michael moore's of our time

his brand of activism -- his basic message -- is that everyone has the ability to speak truth to power. he's not a leader in the sense that he acquires power to use on behalf of the needy. he demonstrates that any one with a sense of outrage can speak truth to power. and that speaking up is a political act with power.

old school leaders centralized power.

to many people, DU is a collective of opposition. that's not something we had in 1917.

we has to escape the morass of MSM propaganda. they have stolen our ability to have an accurate picture of our majority. don't despair. we don't need no damn lenin or trotsky. we have video cameras, blogs and the numbers. we are getting more organized everyday.

in the end, there is going to be no viable solutiion but to prop up the economy with WPA-like solutions. i'm not panglossing over shit -- i just think it's a mistake to ignore the strengths we have now as opposed to then.

[passy]

49. I'm not dismissing Michael Moore

I just meant that it was a shame that some guy from Michigan with no political experience is what is needed to wake the American people up.
It just shows that the days of politics as we know them are gone.
Politicians don't talk to the people, they spend their time talking to lobbyist and corporate sponsors.
I admire what Michael Moore is doing, although I'm still pissed off about his silence over the stolen election, but he has to become prominent again to be out there, to be seen.
What ever he decides to do he will have a massive following, all he needs to do is hint at election fraud and things will begin to come out in the open a lot faster.
If he promised the money he saved this year from *'s tax cuts, to a whistle-blower that would be a good first step.
Also it would be cool if Olbermann had Moore on his show with some damn good video footage from election day.
I'm talking mainly about the election because I think that it is the great ticking time bomb that could change everything very quickly.

[Cerridwen]

8. Crash - too many people still buy the "economy is fine/recovering"

message even though they don't see it in their own life. Apparently "they" consider themselves the anamoly and are waiting for the "recovery" to "trickle down" to them.

It won't be until a major crisis hits everyone around them that they realize it's not just them going through tough times.

Cynic that I am, I don't see a revolution happening even then as most people will be so busy trying to survive, they may not think they have time to "fix" what's been broken.

[passy]

13. Just before 9/11 the economy was doing really badly...

...and people were hearing about it as the media was still somehow half decent at covering these things in those early post-Clinton days.
And * was never doing anything that made the front page back then that would have pushed out the bad economic news.
9/11 allowed them to rewrite the rules on a number of issues.
If the crash comes it will just make things worse for everyone, allowing * and his cohorts to introduce a true dictatorship under the pretense that it is the only way to save the country.

[mcscajun]

11. The economy, absolutely.

Things will have be horrendous economically to cause any real social breakdown or revolutionary change in this country.

[passy]

14. Not unless you find a scapegoat.

The equivalent of the Jews under Nazi Germany or the communists in the 1950's.
I wonder who it could be this time?
It certainly won't be the neocons who are truly to blame for the mess we find ourselves in.

[mcscajun]

38. Well the Jews in Nazi Germany were set up as scapegoats

for the disastrous economic situation that Germany found itself in during the time of Weimar Republic, so first we have to have the crash. My point still holds. Yes, there will be folks looking for scapegoats then and, in some respects, that's already started with the surge in anti-immigration stories.

[AG78]

16. Well

The process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event --- like a new Pearl Harbor.

[passy]

18. Would irrevocable proof of election Fraud be catastrophic?

[AG78]

20. Not in this reality

Nothing tops 19 Muslims flying planes into buildings.

Election fraud? That's just lefty commie crap coming from the socialists that are trying to turn America into a secular anti-Christian haven for international laws to determine the amount of manifest destiny true Americans are allowed to conduct.

[nashville_brook]

28. why not? if the theocrats have come to power thru fraud,

isn't it a classic narrative that popping their bubble would lead to rapid cultural change?

i can easily imagine an un-masking that would lead to vast ridicule and irrelevance.

[nascarblue]

33. There already is proof...

The media will not report it though. The media along with the politicians and the corporations are running things... And their main goal is to keep Americans passive and scared while they drain the worlds resources along with every single citizen's money.

[nashville_brook]

26. actually, it has been the trademark of revolutionary movements

be they intllectual, technological or social -- that they happen rapidly. that's the power of a revolution. it catches like fire. suddenly everyone's a hippie. or everyone's making a mint on the internet. it is more likely that we are so intrenched in revolution at this moment that we fail to see the enormity of the change.

i think you could say the theocracy movement is one such revolution -- waiting for a backlash. rapid cultural change -- correction. you have to hop on the zietgeist and ride.

[mcscajun]

39. You'll get no argument from me on that.

Which is why I tell kids in their 20s now that at least they'll be lucky enough to see this awful business turn around in their lifetimes.

[AG78]

59. Hope you're right

I'm 26.

But the author's of that statement were thinking about American hegemony when they wrote it in 1997.

The Michael "Universal Fascism" Ledeen's of the world never go away. There will always be people, groups, or giant political movements that just want power.

[nashville_brook]

44. think of the ways a technological advance in healthcare

would re-wire society. not even a tech advance, just a social advance.

stem cells research could provide such an advance.

or energy advancements like being able to generate power and sell it back to sustain your consumption. this shit is out there. ideas topple tyranny as much as collective action.

[JanMichael]

21. Check out Maurice Strong: Crash.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3522537

[donsu]

29. Cleveland has crashed and should be ready for revolution

wouldn't you think?

[bobthedrummer]

31. We need to restore our US Constitution and prosecute traitors in BFEE.

Nothing less.

[nascarblue]

32. the crash

[LdyGuique]

34. I agree with those who say, "crash"

A crash of the economy and the entire rotten structure that is supporting it will be the only thing that will cause most people to re-evaluate what is actually happening both in the U.S. and throughout the world. However, it doesn't mean that everyone will come to the same conclusion.

If revolution were to happen, it would involve several major factions who would hold polarized viewpoints as to both the cause and solution to the crash. Since we have necons in power with a strong penchant for fascism, I could see martial law being declared and a suspension of the Constitution and its freedoms. There would be little or no attempt made to mitigate the hardships, unlike the era of FDR. Traditionalists, which includes fundies, would push for stability at the barrel-end of a gun. Meanwhile, those with more anarchist tendencies would also pick up the gun. Meanwhile, other factions, such as the survivalist militia movements would focus on racism-caused reasons. And, so on . . .it could get really ugly before it got better.

[nashville_brook]

48. clampdowns sends patriots underground

where we can do the most damage to system. as soon as people realize they can jump off the wheel and survive just fine; things will change fast.

it's not the best book on the subject, but it's a good start:
The Two Income Trap: why middle class parents are going broke
by elizabeth warren and amelia warren tyagi

[passy]

50. But where is the military in all that.

Usually in countries that experience troubled times, the military plays a large part in restoring order, be they on the side of the rightists or the leftists.
But how would the military react in the US today when half of them are getting their ass shot in Iraq or Afghanistan. I doubt that they would take the side of the neocons. I think Rumsfeld has pissed them off to much for that.

[solinvictus]

52. One would hope, but...

the military was given psychological tests back about ten years ago asking if they'd fire on Americans and many, of course, answered "yes". It's hard to say where the military would fall, I imagine most military and police will desert to protect their own families.

[solinvictus]

36. The crash..

then comes the burn.

[leftofthedial]

51. crash

[AnneD]

53. The crash......

if most Amurican were using their brains, we would have have a revolution by now. You have only started hearing negative MSM (and they gloss over) since the stock market dropped, dollar dropped even more, wages flat, threats of inflation, and gas prices went up. The deficit-they haven't paid attention to that for over 5 years. There is such a disconnect that it WILL take a full out crash to wake people up.

The revolution will not be televised.........

[passy]

57. Things are accumulating

the stock market, the delay and bolton hearings, the nuclear option, the SS failure, the hanging threat of election fraud being discovered etc...
If all of it was televised in would flood the TV news.

[Speck Tater]

61. Read "The Long Emergency" It leaves no doubt which will come first

The crash, but probably not the crash the OP is thinking of. Things are going to get much worse than most people re willing to imagine.

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. The Crash. ALL people have to be ticked off enough,

affected by the crash themselves before they will wake up and smell the coffee. We've had 4+ years of this bullshit. The sheeple don't seems to be sprouting brains yet.

[passy]

65. Kick for Sunday

I would also like to add: the opinion seems to be that the Crash will come before the revolution, should will be readying ourselves for what is to come and its aftermath?

[barb162]

68. the crash will come; there will be no revolution