If you could choose, would you WANT to be American?

[Maiden England]

Because I have that choice in front of me at the moment, and I'd be very interested in seeing a debate for and against that choice.


I am a British citizen, I moved to the US 3 years ago, to be with my US husband. I've been eligible for citizenship since December, and back when we were planning on me moving over here, doing all the immigration 'stuff' I'd always assumed I'd naturalize ASAP. Then I moved here.
America wasn't exactly what I expected to be honest. I don't think I realized just how different it would be in attitude from the UK. I wasn't expecting a country so polarized between left and right, with such strong religious influence - of course we live in the south, so thats probably not representative of other areas, but still, its what I have to live with. I wasn't expecting to be so bitterly dismayed by and distrustful of America's political leadership. My experiences have also been tainted by the fact that I've been unable to find work, even though I have an advanced degree. That in itself has led to much unhappiness. All in all, I've been quite underwhelmed by the American Dream thus far.
If this were England, I'm sure I wouldn't hesitate for moment to believe that change for the better could be accomplished. But I don't have the same inherent love for the country of my birth, here in the US. I know there are good reasons to become a US Citizen, from being elligible for Social Security benefits, to the security of my status in this country. Perhaps most importantly, the right to vote, and perhaps, following on from that, the right to bitch about the current state of affairs. I guess it doesn't help it feel like 'home' when you have no say in the people who run the country.
In the face of that, though is the fact I'm scared by the direction this country is going in, I'm afraid I'll take the oath, and I'll be handed more of an American nightmare, than a dream.

So make your cases fellow eloquent DUers. The pros and cons, the fors and againsts. Why this country is so great, why this country is so terrible. Not only would it help me immensely, but I think it could be a really enlightening debate in general.

[bushisanidiot]

1. Hell YES! I love this country.. but the LEADERSHIP sucks!!

the repukes are destroying what america once was, but I think it's still fixable. we just need to vote the dems back in..

[Catholic Sensation]

2. yes

[eallen]

3. The more passports, the better.

What is the nature of your choice? If you become a naturalized citizen, will you no longer be a subject of the crown? That makes the choice more difficult.

But if it means becoming a dual citizen, then where is the harm?

[BlueEyedSon]

4. Can you keep your BritCit status? nt

[Maiden England]

20. Yes, I cannot lose my British citizenship

I'd would be a dual citizen if I naturalized. But still, I hate to think of it as a 'backup plan'. I'd rather be sure that I was naturalizing for the right reasons. If I felt for a moment, that I'd have to bail and go back to the UK, then I wouldn't be honestly taking that oath.

[BlueEyedSon]

22. Go for it... collect the whole set!

[mogster]

52. You should.

Unless you plan to leave for Britain again, of course.

Thanks for the post - it describes very accurately my impression of the US. Only that I've never been there ;-)

Great country, despite the differences that split the Am. people. I am very impressed with the people I've met on the net since 'coming' here, all of the Dems/libs and some of the republicans as well. Or ex-republicans as they call themselves now.
Difficult to say, from a personal security point of view, where the US is developing, but if the US ain't democratic the world ain't democratic, so I feel very much akin to the purpose of the democratic movement out from that pespective.
But it's a bit stiff to decide a citizenship from such high flying perpectives; do you feel good about where you live and the people you meet daily?
If the answer is yes, I can't see why not?

Edit: typo

[bryant69]

5. Tricky one

I don't know if I can really look at it from your perspective. If I had my choice I would choose to be an American, but I can't say that what I would do for myself is what would be best for everybody.

I love my country and I love my fellow country men (in general, that is. There are a few individuals I could do without). I think that even with the current rot in the Republican Party, and the Capitol there is still a lot of strength and goodness in the American People.

That said I'm not you, and it does seem like we are going through tough times. I think the dam is close to bursting on the current version of republicanism - but there's no way to know for sure. So as far as encouraging you to take that step, i'm not sure about it.

Bryant
check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[chicagojoe]

6. America is a Great Nation that is currently under Bad Management

We are now accepting resumes in a search for new management.

[H2O Man]

7. Of course.

I think that people have the choice. I'm proud to be an American.

[burn the bush]

8. of course. It's the only choice for me. I love America

I just hate that she has been raped by bushco.

[liberalitch]

9. yes....

but you are not wrong to feel the way you do?
after all I'm biased.... it's like asking me if I would pick the same mom if I had a choice.

I wish my mom were president.

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. I wish your mom were president.

[liberalitch]

16. She's purtty cool...

75 and a true wild eyed liberal....
She built a bill board in her front yard and everyday post new anti-bush things on there. The civic league keeps trying to stop her (she lives in a freeperhood) but as she has been living there since 1955.... since before many of the idiots were born.... they can do nothing!

she loves to say: "Encumbered by idiots.... we press on."

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. Oh you have to post some pictures for us.

[Cleita]

10. If we were still a Republic,

under Constitutional law, I would say go for it.

I don't think I would if I were you right now. If things turn around you can always apply later. It's never too late to apply for citizenship.

[BurtWorm]

11. If I could choose?

No. Not with the country the way it is and the way it seems to be going. I don't see what the advantages to being American are as opposed to being anything else. I'd rather be a European right now. If I could figure out how to move there and stay there, I would.

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. Yes

It's not really a matter of the country being so great or terrible compared with any other. In my case it's a commitment to the creed established in the Declaration of Independence, particularly the preamble. Sometimes the U.S. does better than others but I like being a part of that ideal. Besides, I think the U.S. desperately needs my help right now.

[Steel City Slim]

14. Without A Doubt!!!!!

I love America! And even as fucked up as it is right now, it's better by far than any other country on the face of the earth.

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. It is? How so?

And other Countries "on the face of the earth" just might take offense to that. I really don't understand this America "is better by far than any other country on the face of the earth" mentality. :shrug: I think any other country that doesn't go around bombing other countries who did nothing to warrant that action, just because it can, are better than 'Murica at this point. But that's just me. :silly:

[earth mom]

27. I feel the same...

America has not achieved what the founding fathers set out for it to be. And while the melting pot is a wonderful ideal, unfortunately, we're not all on the same page as to what this country should be. The neocons and fundies are ruining this place and I have seriously thought of leaving many times this past year and probably will when Dh can retire-which means retiring early!

To the Opening Poster, I'd say don't become a citizen until you are 100% sure and feel some sort of affection for this country. You can still get social security benefits as a "legal alien" with a "green card".
Good Luck! :)

[Steel City Slim]

29. In Response To Your Question

1. If you don't know how much better we have it, you are either uninformed (or misinformed) about what life is like in other countries, or you have been spoiled into oblivion by how good you do have it. Or both.

2. I don't much give a fat flying fuck if somebody in some other country is offended because I think America is the best. I would expect them to feel the same way about their country. And if they don't they should get up off their simple sorry dead asses and do something to change it for the better.

3. Just because the current leader is a dip wad and his policies are fucked up doesn't mean the country is fucked up.

4. Now let me ask you a question, and since I answered yours, I expect you to have the courtesy to answer mine. If you don't think America is the best, what are you, personally and directly, doing to make it better?

[BurtWorm]

33. Life is better in most respects in Europe right now.

By almost every standard: health, life expectancy, democratic representation, separation of church and state.

The US is in decline in every respect that makes life worth living. And I don't see how it can be reversed, short of another cataclysmic economic depression that levels all playing fields.

[Telly Savalas]

36. What the fuck are you fucking talking about?

I lived in the U.S. for the first 30 years of my life and have lived in Canada for the last 3 and would really appreciate it if you would explain to me how much better off I had it in the U.S., cause I'm just not seeing it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

43. How do you know

"how good" I "have it?" And I think this says it all.

2. "I don't much give a fat flying fuck if somebody in some other country is offended because I think America is the best."

And I really don't think you answered my question, you simply stated that you feel I am either uniformed or misinformed about how other countries don't measure up to the Great USA! or I am spoiled into oblivion by how good I do have it or both! :eyes:

The current leader is a dip wad and his policies have fucked this country along with those who support him and his fucked up policies.

Oh and btw, I think your "America is the greatest" attitude is self serving and uninformed or misinformed.

I'm am not one of those who needs to feel that my birth place has to rank as the "best" on the face of the earth. I think that is an arrogant attitude.

[Steel City Slim]

45. So....What Are You Doing To Make It Better?

[yvr girl]

46. If you're comparing America to 3rd world countries, sure it's much better

But I think you are misinformed if you think life in America is better than ANY other country.

Don't get me wrong, I think America is a good country and I think the idea of America is wonderful. It's just that the idea hasn't panned out as it should.

Many other countries have higher levels of education, better health care (and by that I mean distribution of health care), social programs etc.

I think arguing about which country is the best is stupid anyway. If you pick any 'Have' nation they are going to have strengths and weaknesses. If you can't recognize your weaknesses, you're never going to improve them.

[Maiden England]

49. I'd agree that america is better than some countries,

without a doubt.

but I'm not from some 3rd world country, or from some assbackwards hole.
I'm from the UK.
I do know this, no one country is perfect, to compare the US to other 'enlightened' democratic nations, honestly, while they are very different, there isn't that much to make one better than the other. Just different. Different strokes for different folks.
However, one of the things I do detest about living in the US, is the arrogance of some people. Its one thing to be patriotic and proud of where you live, but another to become arrogant about it. That in itself is a very 'anti-British' trait. Thats one of the traits of Bush, that serves to un-endear him further to the world.

I feel things would be much better in this country if more people could accept responsibility for their failings, and their countries failings, and begin to work to put the right. Its the 'we do no wrong' or 'its not my fault' mentality projected by not only Bush, but by so many in the US, which is severely hampering any ability to improve things.

[Steel City Slim]

62. The Best By Far

I also said that I thought everyone should feel that way about their country, meaning the British should feel that way about England, the French should feel that way about France and so on for every country. And if they didn't, they should get up and do something about it. The "do something" remark was intended for those with negative attitudes about America. Maybe it was too subtle for them. Maybe they just wanted to attack someone who admits they love America.

The patriotism the neo-cons espouse is a false patriotism. There is more to patriotism than waving the flag and yelling "Yeah America." I know we're not perfect, I know we have faults. And everyday I try do do something to make America better. I can't do much, and I can't do it alone, but I do what I can. That is my type of patriotism. Those who pack up their bags and run away to another country (I am not referring to you), those who throw up their hands and ask "But what can anybody do?", those who sit and whine because the person they wanted elected lost are all useless. None of that helps, none of that makes anything any better.

[yvr girl]

64. Your 'Best by Far' attitude is dangerous

I'm all for loving your country. I love Canada without reservation, but I also see her weaknesses. That doesn't make me unpatriotic, it makes me realistic.

When you encourage the 'Best by Far' attitude it leads to an unwillingness to change, it leads to arrogance and hubris. I'm sure that George W. Bush is sure that America is the best country in the world.

I applaud you for doing your part to make your country better. It matters. Patriotism that is based in reality and truth is much better than blind devotion.

[BurtWorm]

21. How is it "better by far than any other country on the face of the earth?"

In what possible way?

[Steel City Slim]

32. In Response To Your Question

Please see my response to #19 as that person asked the same question you did. Also Please answer the question in #4 of my response. Thank you.

[cire4]

44. Wow....can you offer any proof for such a statement???

Saying that America is "far better" than any other country on earth really is a dangrous statement to make if you can't back it up.

And before you call be "uninformed," I have lived in other countries before and my experience is that America is no better than many other countries in the world (i.e. the standard of living is more or less the same, if not better).

[Steel City Slim]

60. Dangerous?

[malmapus]

15. Good question

Its weird how a few years ago I would have said "of course I would" without thinking.

But ever since 2002, my thoughts really have changed to where I have to think on the question at hand.

At first it was the economy, I had found myself out of work and it literally was almost a year before I found a new job. Then the beating of the war drums with false accusations of WMDs in Iraq. I felt in late 2002, early 2003 that I was riding on a rollercoaster, unable to jump off before it goes over that first big hump.

Then after we were in this mess, I felt for sure that come 2004, my fellow Americans would see how wrong this man was to be our President and vote him out and turn us back to the right direction.

It was those elections that really threw me through a loop. I literally was sitting at my TV with a sick stomach almost keeled over. I couldn't understand how this idiot got another 4 years, and then the GOP gaining seats in Congress!!??

I really lost faith in the American people, well half of them at least.

It sucks to, because I gave 4 years of my life, and more since I still have problems I'll carry with me for the rest of my life, to this country in the military. So I feel I have a personal stake in what happens here. Yet here I am, actually questioning if I would want to be an American.

If there is a chance that things will change in the future then yes I wouldn't give up being an American. But if this country keeps going down the same road it is right now with no turning back, then no, I'd give it up.

[mmonk]

17. I am American and I may be forced

to not be American when the rightwing justices take their chair. So it's not a matter of what I want but a matter of what they want. If they end ADA, then they want my son not to have any legal protections resulting from his disabilty, therefore they do not want him. If they do not want him, then they do not want me and I don't want to be here anymore.

[sui generis]

23. I have to agree too

I believe in staying and fighting, but there comes a point in our lives where we also deserve to have a life and to not have to sacrifice it completely for our ideals.

If it's legal to persecute people in this country merely on the accusation of being gay, then it's time to leave. I'll be in the army on the other side of the border when it's time to meet the crusaders coming to free the holy land of Canada from the infidel.

[mmonk]

40. You too, eh?

Oh Canada....

[DemBeans]

18. this is an interesting topic

The main reason I'd advise you to get your citizenship is, as you mentioned, to obtain the right to vote. Of course, I voted and I still live under an oppressive dictatorship, but at least I know that I worked hard to get him out of office and I can hold my head up high.

I grew up in the south and I urge you to put off your decision until you've had a chance to travel a bit in our country and see the diversity that exists here. Life is viewed through a different prism there and I can imagine you're still experiencing culture shock, but I'd avoid judging your American experience based on one region. You might need a bigger sampling size :)

Good luck with your decision - keep us posted.

[rfkrfk]

24. How are things, in the UK ?

In the '70s, there was a BBC documentary
series about life in the British Isles...
'Monty Python's Flying Circus'

The UK is very nice, I understand your
heartache at leaving.

[RethugAssKicker]

25. Its not just the current administration

Granted, the current administration is abysmal, but it is also the American people that are allowing this to happen.. especially in the South... but not just there anymore...

I have lost much of my faith in the American people, and now realize that many are as ignorant, and some more so than the administration.

I can not tell you how many times, I hear how we should just level Iraq and Iran (i.e. NUKE EM). And, the bible fanatics are not such a small minority as one may think...

But, I must say, get out of the South. There is no hope for any intellectual conversation down here. I know. I moved from NY about 15 years ago to Georgia. Although I love the climate and my job(s), my social life is a dismal failure. Too many rednecks and ditto heads down here for me... and they are very dangerous people. They will hurt you if you speak up loudly and aggressively. And if you're a person of color - you're really in for it.

Don't give up your British citizen.... Go for dual (if you can)

[Rockholm]

26. Yes.

Only a disruptor would no, in my opinion.

[Fleshdancer]

30. America has incredible promise

America is still very young. She has the temper of an undisciplined child and the short-sightedness that naturally comes with youth and arrogance. The way the neocons are currently running the country is parallel to parents who have no boundaries set for their children. I see her as a child I once shared custody with and right now, she's the bully child who is way out of line. However, even with her bad behavior, I love her too much to stop fighting the custody battles because I fear that without my presence and discipline, she won't mature.

I think Franken was right that many people on the right view this country the same way that a 3 yr. old views his mommy - that she can do no wrong. We can't put America on a pedestal this way. In a Democracy, we are the parents, not the other way around and I fear what could come of a country that has no rules and no discipline.

On the bright side however, America is still very young. Giving up on her potential is like giving up on a 5 year old because she/he is going through a horrible phase. We take for granted the huge milestones she has succeeded in so far...revolution, ending slavery, industrial age, the New Deal. Children accomplish extraordinary things early on...talking, walking, learning how to read, etc. Whether you're a parent or a patriot, you have to concentrate on the successes when things are going bad and know that there are many more to come. If you don't you'll lose your sanity.

I guess the best advice is to always remember that you help control the outcome and that trying and failing is always better than apathy.

[Maiden England]

35. thats very eloquent!

America is having the 'terrible twos'! I like that analogy.

[Fleshdancer]

39. thank you!

Many moons ago, I had the opportunity to visit Spain. While sitting in a crowded cafe, I noticed an elderly man at another table staring and smiling at me. Apparently I looked very "American" because he knew instantly where I was from. We ended up sitting there and talking for hours. He visited the States as much as he could and he considered America to be his second home.

He told me how America is beautiful because she is young. She's full of promise and hope but was very naive. Spain on the other hand, is much older and very wise but lacked the promising future that young America has. I was 16 at the time and his words are still with me today. He'll never realize how much that conversation changed my outlook on my country and the world. I still think he was smiling at me before the conversation started because he knew how fitting it was to have an elderly Spaniard tell the young American the difference between our two worlds.

Becoming a parent myself helped the evolution of my analogy. The work is just as hard and just as thankless as being an average, everyday citizen in this country, but just as important.

[Maiden England]

50. I have a feeling....

that if I do take citizenship, as I hold up my right hand and swear the oath, I'll be thinking of your anecdote as I do it....

Thank you.

[Fleshdancer]

63. that is hands down the nicest thing any DUer has ever said to me

I respect your decision either way, I know it's a hard one. At the end of the day, do what makes you happy and think of my theory when American life becomes unbearable...Goddess knows I do. :)

Thank you for the kind words.

[efhmc]

31. No, I am ashamed and embarassed daily by this country.

[LiberallyInclined]

34. If i could choose, i'd be a kiwi

even if you choose become an American, RETAIN your Brit citizenship.

but above all- MOVE out of the SOUTH.

[marions ghost]

37. well this is a good question for debate....

Obviously since you married an American you might want to have full citizenship rights--that's the purely practical side of it, unique to your situation. The rest of your conflicts you do share with MANY Americans--ie. the natural desire to live in a country that works instead of a dysfunctional place, the sense of betrayal by the US government at every level, the unfavorable comparison with England/Europe, the lack of employment opportunity, the hyped-up political polarization, etc -- all those issues are our issues. There aren't too many of us here who could do a good job of selling someone like you on America at this point. (And if you think that the problems are concentrated in the South, well do some travelling around...you'll probably find that many of the same issues apply everywhere).

Make no mistake. We are in a watershed era in this country. Everyone will have to decide what they stand for, what they think is worth fighting for. No American citizen can take our "freedoms" for granted anymore. I resent the fact that we have to do this work now as I definitely have better things to do in my life span, but I'm afraid that is our position. It is a matter of trust, and our trust has been trampled. Our Democracy has been hijacked and we are living a Machiavellian nightmare. The question is--do we love this country ENOUGH to fight for it--at home!? Whether we can stop this downhill course, whether we can create something new and better remains to be seen. But there is hope. There is opportunity. People are waking up. It's gonna take work and pulling together. All is not lost yet.

You are getting on a roller coaster just by being here, sloppyliberal. You did not come to a Utopian dream--you came to a very volatile place at a very uncertain time. There are no guarantees. Maybe your contribution will be to keep saying that you have a dream (that America can be better or more like England at least)-- to help dispel the downtrodden, put-up-with-it mentality.

[Maiden England]

56. One does not take on such responsibility lightly

I believe that is my greatest fear, I know I can't naturalize and then forget about my civic responsibility to my new country. Like you say, it will take hard work by all of us, to steer America for a better course.

I suppose if I were born here, I wouldn't hesitate to pull up my bootstraps and get to work, that is the attitude of my husband. But to take it on of free will, is not as easy to do.

[Touchdown]

38. Honestly no, but hindsight is 20/20

I've kind of gotten over the auto-pride in the USA, and see it as just another chance of dumb luck that I was born here. Don't get me wrong, I still love this country and try in my little way to make it better than I found it, but given what has transpired over my lifetime, and what I see as getting worse before it get's better here, I'm thinking it might be preferable to be a Hungarian.

To grow up under a decaying communist regime isn't the most ideal way of growing up, but once I turn 24, and the wall comes down, a whole new world of possibilities must seem like opening your eyes for the first time. I envied the new world the central Europeans went through in the 90s and continuing into today. The sense of hope, the involvement, the newfound freedom. In the USA, it all seems passe, and judging by our voter turnout, jaded. No fire left here. Democracy seems petrified here in the Good Ole' USA. In Central Europe, and even Eastern (Ukraine), they seem to be opening up. Here, we're shutting it down, in no small part to the poor education system which seems to churn out those who reward apathy and greed over citizenship. I hate my job, but all my coworkers can say is..."But, it's a paycheck, so you should be thankful" as if being a cog in the machine for my pieces of silver is all that really matters.

In the end, home is where you hang your hat. It's happiness, not territorial boundaries and colored flags that matters in human endeavors.

[Dorian Gray]

41. Really?

When I married a British man, he wasn't eligible for Citizenship until he had been her for over 5 years. Have the rules changed?

[Maiden England]

54. 3 years as a PR married to a USC

wins you a fast pass to the American Dream.....

I know its been like that since at least 1998, when we first started looking into it.

[Quixote1818]

42. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are Brilliant. Thats what we are

supposed to be about. We have a solid foundation but we are going through a rough period where our leaders are not standing for what we were founded upon.

[moondust]

47. Not my first choice.

I've often wished I had been born in Denmark or some other small country where life is more life-size/real, there is much less hype and self-serving spin/manipulation, much much much less militarization and aggressiveness, and no pressure to be the world's #1 this or that. I'd rather live without the gun culture and without the car culture of the U.S. I prefer kinder, gentler people. Canada or Europe would have been better places for me.

[Drewskie]

48. wife

I want a british wife too.

[Bouncy Ball]

51. I'm not so emotionally invested in a country that I can't imagine

being from somewhere else.

I wouldn't mind being Canadian or British, for example. Perfectly nice countries!

[walldude]

53. Wow, I'm suprised to see a few

"America is the greatest" posts here. I live in the U.S. but my work takes me around the world. I have visited many other countries and America is no better or worse than many of them. I actually felt more comfortable and safer in places like Austraila, Amsterdam and London than I do at home. Hell I felt safer in Singapore than I do here. I still call this my home, but like my car, it needs some work. Just like anywhere else. Also I find people in many other nations to be a little less selfish, a little more friendly, and a lot less uptight. It's funny, when I come across a "Murrika rulez love it or leave it" person the first thing I ask is have they ever been outside the U.S. and 99% of the time the answer is no. Patriotism, born of ignorance of other nations, is wholly irrational and pointless.
If I were you and was going to stay here I would get my citizenship. Not for any of the benefits but because studying for the test will give you a full understanding of the brilliance of the U.S. Constitution, the founding fathers and the way America is supposed to work. Most people who take the citizenship test know more about how our government works than your average U.S. born citizen. Of course all this is MHO.

[crispini]

55. My mom, a Brit, took like 20 years to decide to become

a citizen. It's my take that she really felt -- because all of us are pretty rooted here at this point -- that it was time. I'm not sure she's particularly thrilled about the whole thing, but I believe she was worried about -- some legal thingy having to do with inheritance in case my father died?

Anyway, take your time on making your decision, it's a very personal thing. I'm pretty disgusted with the US myself at this point, although if you read our history esp. Thoreau, Emerson, the founding fathers, etc., then you realize there are a lot of good ideals that our country is based on.

And, you do get to vote. That's a wonderful thing.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

57. I think most of the American people are almost as bad as the leadership.

They are either apathetic, ignorant, gullible or they don't give two figs about anybody else (ie. the innocent Iraqis who have been killed in Iraq are just collaterol damage).

There are some "aware" and "caring" people in this country but they are a small percentage in my opinion. Of course, I have almost always lived in Republican areas so maybe I have a jaundiced view of my fellow Americans.

If I had the opportunity, I would move away in a heartbeat. This country disgusts me. I think we are also headed for collapse in this country eventually.

[CJCRANE]

58. I wouldn't have minded being American in the 90's...

There did seem to be an energy and vitality about the country then.

Even though I'm British I almost felt as though Bill Clinton was my President too.

[rockymountaindem]

59. Most definately.

America is my country, and today's dark skies don't necessarily preclude the chance of future sunshine.

[depakid]

61. I sure wouldn't

It's become a badge of shame both here and abroad.