How can you not be moved?

[theboss]

My girlfriend and I just watched the entire funeral mass on C-SPAN. (And before I forget, God bless C-SPAN that spares me from Anderson Cooper).

Ratzinger's homily was beautiful and moving. The mass of people was amazing. The effort needed to deliver the Eucherist was remarkable. And seeing all those world leaders of so many faiths and so many races gathered together gave me hope.

But the one thing that got me and especially my Polish-American girlfriend was the fact that two million Polish people were there waving their flags and honoring their countryman. It's amazing to think that at the beginning of this Pope's reign, none of them could have made the trip to Rome. Now - with this Pope's help - they can travel freely, worship freely, and play a vital and leading role in the world community. It is - dare I say - miraculous.

And speaking as an Italian-American, I just love the Italian people. They just get it. They know how to live. They know how to celebrate. They know how to worship. And they know how to mourn. Nothing about the applause or chants seemed the least bit forced. The ceremony was solemn when it needed to be and celebratory when that was appropriate.

I'm not Catholic but I did feel a stronger connection to my creator today than I have felt in some time. And isn't that the role of a priest, pastor, or rabbi? To bring us closer to God.

I'm a cynical man by nature so to feel any hope for humanity is a little alarming for me. But I felt it today.

God bless his successor. It's got to be like going on stage after Sinatra. But the tests ahead can be dealt with later. Today, I just want to reflect on what the world had, what the world lost, and what we were left as a gift.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Did Bush take communion?

My sister said she was the funeral and thought she saw Bush getting communion.

[sellitman]

3. He ate Pretzels not Holy Wafers

[begin_within]

5. I thought Bush was a Methodist. Or did he suddenly convert? You can't...

...receive communion at a Catholic mass unless you first have been baptized as a Catholic, and have gone through the necessary preparations for your first communion, and are in a "state of grace" at the time you receive communion, including being absolved of your sins and having done the necessary fasting. Did Bush do all of these?

[Cleita]

11. Even if he did all the above, does puking up the alcohol

your drank the night before count as fasting?

[begin_within]

32. ha ha!

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. He was sitting next to a nun

[solinvictus]

28. I notice Bush has his "serious" face on...

He is so fake, much like his doped-up wife.

[Clark2008]

52. She's only called a nun because, living with him, well...

she don't get none.

:P

[Virginian]

55. He looks like a real approachable guy -- NOT!

With that face, he doesn't look like someone you could have a beer with.

[theboss]

14. That would be impossible

Non-Catholics aren't permitted.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. And how do they prove they are Catholic?

Last time I went to Mass, no one asked for a Baptism certificate at the Communion rail.

[Indykatie]

2. Thanks for Sharing

I didn't watch the service but have seen pictures and yes I was moved. I'm not Catholic but found the world's attention to the Pope's death touching and appropriate.

[The Gigmeister]

4. It's truly been a real "Moving Experience".

The Pope represented peace and love. Two things we progressives are **Supposed** to hold dear.

But then I see all the hatred being spewed forth...


The world is what we make it. And I for one, do believe the Pope made it a much better place. May he rest in Peace and be at the side of God for eternity. He's earned it.

[newsguyatl]

6. except towards gays

of course, they're "evil" in his eyes.

[The Gigmeister]

7. Ugh...

...Don't speak for the Pope. I trust he did that just fine himself.

[newsguyatl]

16. he did pal, and that's what he said

[The Gigmeister]

27. The man had convictions and beliefs, and he stuck to them.

For that I respect him.

The man did more good for this world than just about any other person. I'm not going to dismiss him based on him opinions of gays.

[mondo joe]

34. Jesse Helms had convictions too.

Having convictions doesn't impress me.

[Bluebear]

46. Precisely what Bush adorers say about their leader

"Right or wrong, at least you know where he's coming from!"

:crazy:

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Then what about his failures regarding pedophile priests?

He promoted Cardinal Law after he covered up criminal acts and merely transferred offending priests to other parishes. The pope's stance against homosexuality was bad enough, but once I add the way he ignored the pedophile scandals, I can't call him a great or even a decent man. And I haven't even mentioned his archaic and damaging stance on birth control.

He allowed priests to continue molesting children!! For God's sake, how can anyone condone that?

[newsguyatl]

50. yeh, bush has his convictions and beliefs too

what's your point :eyes:

[MissWaverly]

9. I too am saddened by the anti-gay stance

but I am glad to see that there is still genuine religion in the world, there are many in this country who spout religion while they plot the most mean spirited things that I have ever seen in my lifetime (like the EPA study of pesticides using 1 year old toddlers in minority neighborhoods in Florida, they planned to pay the parents and give them a camcorder).
I believe that tolerance for gays will come from the people, whether it's in this country's courts or in the churches, it will come, soon it will consider ludicrous that we ever did it in the first place.

[Eloriel]

18. and women, who are just one tiny step up from evil --

they're not good enough to be included as spiritual leaders in the Church, an attitude which helps subjugate slightly more than half of the entire population of the planet. If you're "not good enough," if you're somehow defective, then disparate treatment of you and all of your gender is not only okay, it's virtually required.

And I personally consider his/the Church's position on birth control (and abortion) nothing less than evil. It's not the same kind of evil I attribute to George Bush and his Family, but it's SO harmful to fully half the human race -- the less powerful half -- that I can come up with no other suitable word to describe it. Such a position relegates poor (and usually uneducated) women the world over to further impoverished lives of hopelessness, along with their children as well. The quality of their lives, their daily health and that of their children, their educational level, their life expectancy -- all of that means nothing to the Church and this thankfully now dead Pope. Women are merely breeders (of more little Catholic laity), about whom that burning question, "Do women even HAVE a soul?" was a matter of controversy and concern not all that long ago, such vile, worthless creatures were/are they.

Ptooey.

And yes, the Church's and THIS pope's position on gays is equally reprehensible/evil.

[newsguyatl]

24. hey gal !!!

so good to see you here... i don't come here often anymore, but i'd swear the true liberals are nowhere to be seen anymore it seems. if it's not some thread about prayer and god almighty, it's another about the dems needing to move to the center...

so i'm especially glad to see you!

hope you're well!

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Princess Turandot]

43. Do you know very many Catholic American women who do not..

use birth control? I've never met one. According to the UN, 70% of South Americans use birth control. In countries where HIV is spreading at the greatest rate among heterosexuals, there are very few Catholics. Those are also the same areas of the world where populations are exploding. There are even countries, well at least one, whose President stood up at one of the World Aids Conferences and announced that he did not think HIV caused AIDS. Rumour has it in many a country that men simply do not want to use condoms, especially ones that Asiatic prostitutes deal with. And I doubt those boys raping women & children in Darfur wore condoms or ever gave a thought to the Catholic Church.

I completely disagree with the teachings of the Church on birth control and have never followed them. It's not that hard for others in Western countries to do the same. It's governments in impoverished countries where HIV infection and population is on the rise who have the responsibility here. It's one thing to disagree with the teachings of the Church, but to ascribe the impact of similar things done or not done by other governments or religions to Catholicism where Catholicism has limited impact, isn't logical to me.

I'm a Catholic female who has never felt that women mean nothing to the Church. I believe that the Church needs married clergy, but if they don't ordain women, it just doesn't excite me. I don't see that as a definition of being a second class citizen or worse. You apparently do, but that's a personal not a universal viewpoint.

Since I think the Pope also was quite outspoken abt heterosexuals who have sex outside of marriage, I don't think he was particularly singling out gay people in that regard. You do. There are gay people here who do. But it's something I find hard to get worked up over.If having sex outside of marriage is something that sends me to hell, so be it. I'm taking my chances that it won't. But I don't see someone else's opinion on that (like my mother's opinion for example) as defining that person as evil.

There are a hell of a lot of people in this world who have done or do nothing to make the world a better place. I don't think John Paul II is in that category. You're welcome to think that he is.

[Eloriel]

12. Let me help you out a bit about this pope

Some Reflections on the Recent Papacy of JPII
by Matthew Fox, Ph.D.
http://www.opednews.com/foxmatthew_040405_pope.htm
discussed here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=117682#117723

From the Matthew Fox article (which is must reading, IMO) and lists some things he found problematic, including:

A prolonged effort to render fascism fashionable. This includes the rushing into canonization of the card-carrying fascist priest who founded the Opus Dei movement even though this man actually praised Adolf Hitler and also denounced women and has been accused of sexual abuse of six young men who are alive today.

The taking of Opus Dei under the hand of the papacy granting it legitimacy and power within and without the Catholic structure.

The conscious destruction and systemic dismanteling of the Liberation Theology movement and the very vital base communities it spawned in Latin America in particular--a move which has opened up Latin America to an onslaught of Pentecostal and right wing religious huckstering. The demise of the Catholic Church in Latin America is now well underway--pentecostals are sweeping away the population--now that this papacy (with the encouragment and support of the CIA) has destroyed liberation theology and replaced it with opus dei bishops and cardinals.

The effort to eliminate theology and replace it with ideology by spreading fear among theologians. The expulsion from the priesthood of three prominent theologians on three continents in the 1990's sent fear into the ranks of theological thinkers since. Those 3 theologians are Leonardo Boff from Latin America; Father Eugene Dreuermann from Germany; and myself in North America.

The sorry appointment of ideological Yes Men as bishops and cardinals and with it the scandalous pedophile priest situation where the scandal is less about individual priest's crimes than about the cover-up of these crimes by churchmen who, lacking either moral integrity or intellectual smarts, moved these criminals from parish to parish and from diocese to diocese. (One legal commentator points to a Vatican document on dealing with pedophile priests as "an international conspiracy to obstruct justice.") Three close bishop friends of this pope in Europe were themselves forced to resign for sexual misconduct.

Even more curious, is the elevation of one key American churchman, Cardinal Law, head of the Boston archdiocese where the U.S. pedophile scandal first went public, to a plum parish assignment in Rome this past year.




MORE, if you're man enough:

The Pope Who Revived the Office of the Inquisition
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=118069#118118
Link: http://www.counterpunch.org/connolly04052005.html


Thomas Cahill - The Price of Infallibility (Pope JP II)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x117802
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/opinion/cahill.html

[REP]

40. "Is The Pope Crazy?" - Katha Pollitt, The Nation

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031103&s=pollitt

There are many things to be said against condoms, and most people reading this have probably said them all. But at least they work. Not perfectly--they slip, they break, they require more forethought and finesse and cooperation and trust than is easy to bring to sex every single time, and, a major drawback in this fallen world, they place women's safety in the hands of men. But for birth control they are a whole lot better than the rhythm method or prayer or nothing, and for protection from sexually transmitted diseases they are all we have. This is not exactly a controversial statement; people have been using condoms as a barrier against disease as long as rubber has been around (indeed, before--as readers of James Boswell's journals know). You could ask a thousand doctors--ten thousand doctors--before you'd find one who said, Condoms? Don't bother.


But what do doctors know? Or the Centers for Disease Control, or the World Health Organization, or the American Foundation for AIDS Research (Amfar)? These days, the experts on condoms are politicians, preachers and priests, and the word from above is: Condoms don't work. That is what students are being taught in the abstinence-only sex ed favored by the religious right and funded by the Bush Administration--$117 million of your annual tax dollars at work. The theory is that even mentioning condoms, much less admitting that they dramatically reduce the chances of pregnancy or HIV infection, sends a "mixed message" about the value of total abstinence until marriage. How absurd--it's like saying that seat belts send a mixed message about the speed limit or vitamin pills send a mixed message about vegetables. Anti-condom propaganda can backfire, too: True, some kids may be scared away from sex although probably not until marriage; others, though, hear only a reason to throw caution to the winds. According to a 2002 Human Rights Watch report on abstinence-only sex ed in Texas, a condoms-don't-work ad campaign led sexually active teens to have unprotected sex: "My boyfriend says they don't work. He heard it on the radio." Why is the Bush Administration giving horny teenage boys an excuse to be sexually selfish? You might as well have high school teachers telling them using a condom during sex is like taking a shower in a raincoat.


Now it seems the Vatican is joining fundamentalist Protestants to spread the word against condoms around the globe. "To talk of condoms as 'safe sex' is a form of Russian roulette," said Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, head of the Vatican's office on the family. On the BBC Panorama program "Sex and the Holy City," Lopez Trujillo explained, "The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." That latex has holes or pores through which HIV (or sperm) can pass is a total canard. A National Institutes of Health panel that included anti-condom advocates examined the effectiveness of condoms from just about every perspective, including strength and porosity; according to its report, released in July 2001, latex condoms are impermeable to even the smallest pathogen. Among STDs, HIV is actually the one condoms work best against. "We're all a bit stunned by Lopez Trujillo's lack of respect for scientific consensus," Dr. Judith Auerbach of Amfar, who sat on the NIH panel, told me. "Where do his numbers come from?" Is Lopez Trujillo, who even suggests putting warnings on condoms like those on cigarettes, a loose cannon such as can be found in even the best regulated bureaucracies? According to "Sex and the Holy City," in Africa, where HIV infects millions--20 percent in Kenya, 40 percent in Botswana, 34 percent in Zimbabwe--Catholic clergy, who oppose condoms as they do all contraception, are actively promoting the myth that condoms don't prevent transmission of the virus and may even spread it. The Guardian quotes the archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, as saying: "AIDS...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Thus is a decade of painstaking work to mainstream and normalize condom use undone by the conscious promotion of an urban legend.

...

It's bad enough to argue that condoms are against God's will while millions die. But to maintain, falsely, that they are ineffective in order to discourage their use is truly immoral. If not insane.

[Goathead]

8. The Vatican and John Paul II especially

are and were staunch anti-communists. The CIA used to only recruit from Irish Catholic Universities because they felt they could find people that would be loyal there.

[Eloriel]

10. I am moved to utter

desperation. Is there NO END TO THIS? Can I not even come onto DU and escape the Pope-a-thon? I turn on the 10:00 news with Aaron Brown. WRONG For at least the 3rd time in as many weeks Newsnight with Aaron Brown was given over to overtly religious programming (probably actually more since I haven't exactly been keeping up with Brown since the first 2 occasions).

I absolutely despair of escaping theocracy since so many people here are clearly helping make way for it if not actively promoting it. I absolutely despair of DU regaining its equilibrium. I absolutely despair of EVER being free again of having religious content and discussions rammed down my throat-- and I despair of people, including DUers, "getting it" why that's needed and necessary in a fucking SECULAR SOCIETY, which we apparently no longer are.

[Cleita]

15. Well, on the bright side he will soon be entombed. RIP

eom

[theboss]

17. DU - to my knowledge - is not a religion-free zone

And faith is a centerpiece of a lot of Democrats' lives. So, something like the death of the religious leader of a billion people has a tendency to make some of us reflective and talkative.

I'm sure within a week we can go back to talking about peak oil 24/7 again.

[rockymountaindem]

25. Then why did you click on this thread?

Mourning the leader of one's faith does not make one a theocrat, and talking about God does not make one a fundamentalist.

Your wishes to shut down religious conversation are equally tasteless as a fundamentalist rant.

And in case anybody is wondering, this is not unique to the United States. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has had just as much Pope funeral coverage as any US network.

[The Gigmeister]

30. JFK was a Catholic. Do you hate him too?

Democrats CAN be religious, you know? As a matter of fact, MOST are!

Deal with it.

[NAO]

31. I would not have believed it, but it is actually worse than Raygun

The media worship fest surrounding the death of Ronald Raygun was sickening to the extreme. I did not think it could get worse than that.

Well, folks, it has. CNN playing hours and hours of coverage of the funeral borders on the ridiculous. There is other news happening in the world.

Bush and the Republicans are certainly trying to capitalize on the Pope's death with their "culture of life" talking points, as documented by Jon Stewart.

But now I am starting to wonder if the Catholic Church is not also capitalizing on the media phenomena. How much would it cost to buy that many hours of air time on CNN? Do you suppose there will be an influx of Catholics - either repentant apostates or new converts - as a direct result of the media coverage of the Pope's funeral?

[theboss]

33. I was actually wondering how this will affect attendance at mass on Sunday

I wish there was a good way to measure those types of numbers.

[More Than A Feeling]

36. I don't think we ever were a secular society.

A secular government? absolutely, althought the future of that is uncertain. But nowhere in the constitution does it grant the right to a secular society. Private entities are free to put up all the religious paraphernalia they want and be as religious as they want to be, in private and in public, as long as they aren't committing a crime or infringing on civil and other rights laid out in the constitution. Just as you have the right to not believe them and ignore them and ask them to stop, and if they do not, treat them accordingly, within the bounds of the law.

[Swede]

19. There were holy men and women of every faith there.

Muslim,Sikh,Buddists and Jew. Protestant and orthodox all came to honor this man. He was a good man,but a man,fallible like we all are.

[theboss]

22. I agree with everything you said.

I'm not Catholic so I have no stake in the argument that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith. In fact, I quite disagree with that belief.

But a quarter century ago such a diverse turnout was unthinkable. Does anyone think in 1980 that Iran would have sent a representative? Heck, a Polish representative was practically unthinkable then. A Jewish representative was unthinkable. But it happened.

I have some optimism that maybe the world is not quite a crazy as it appears at times.

[bonito]

20. Hope, that word keeps me going,

Its one of only a few that I can feel inside, beyond that there is more that can't be spoken, but felt and known.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Please stop. I also have Italian ancestors, but what went on in Rome....

...was simply outrageous. The man's policies condemned to death millions of people infected with HIV/AIDS, and condemned millions of unwanted children to a life of misery.

He's just another hardline fundie.

If you want to treat this guy like a rock star, you're welcome to him.

[DerekG]

37. Talk about devolution

There is much to admire about Popes John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul I, but this man--the scourge of liberation theology--will get as much adjulation from me as that butcher, Ronald Reagan...NONE.

[Technowitch]

23. Thanks for sharing, but...

I'm a Wiccan bisexual woman in a committed lesbian marriage, seven years and counting.

And that man, that religious leader they buried this past day, called my relationship with my wife an evil thing. A sin. A moral wrong.

The homilies, sermons, and all the rest of it do not move me in the least, because in the eyes of that man, I am doomed to eternal torment and suffering when I die.

That's how I can not be moved. I hope only that in the afterlife, if there is one, he comes to a greater degree of compassion and understanding.

I forgive him for what he's done and said, but I shall not forget.

He was a man, like any other. He died -- just like the hundreds of thousands who die each day, forgotten and unmourned.

[kentuck]

26. I am naturally repelled by such productions.

Just like they did with Reagan. But I'm not a Catholic.

[jayfish]

35. I'm Just Thankful...

that I didn't see even a minute of it. I am truly blessed. O8)

Jay

[Ladyhawk]

38. I didn't either. Yea!

I don't know whether to love or hate my TV-less state.

As far as I'm concerned, the Pope has a mixed legacy. His hatred of gays and birth control were reprehensible. His hatred of the war in Iraq was laudable.

Unfortunately, most organized religion is based upon dogma that does not allow the individual to use his or her own mind. That in itself makes me distrust religion and those that adhere strictly to dogma. The more I learn about religion, the more I'm glad to be religion-free.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Since you asked.

I didn't watch it, didn't feel the need. I doubt I would have been moved, with maybe the exception of noting dignitaries and ceremony.

AS far as feeling closer to a creator because of a preacher? Well, to each his own. My understand was that rabbis, priests, ministers were supposed to help you understand religion, not be an intermediary to G-d, or whomever. YOU choose how close to G-d you become, as no "holy" person can do that for you.

As for some others opinions, I thought this was an open discussion board? I have never seen so many impromptu 'monitors' since joining DU! It shouldn't matter if it is a "pro" Pope thread or an "con" Pope thread, as long as people are respectful, one should be allowed to post where ever s/he wants and with whatever opinion. The "why did you click on this thread" is stupid! It is as stupid an argument as would be "why did you create the thread if you didn't want dissenting opinions?"

Just because someone doesn't agree with your take on religion, spirituality, or lack thereof, doesn't make the person a "basher" or you "persecuted!" (This last part was a general statement and not a direct post to the OP.)

[Disturbed]

41. The man had convictions and beliefs, and he stuck to them.

Yeah and the Catholic Church was silent during this man's reign who also had convictions and beliefs that he stuck to.

[LdyGuique]

42. While I appreciated the medieval tradition and solemnity of the occasion,

and, while this past few weeks has given me a fresh respect for the integrity of Pope John Paul II (PJP2), watching the funeral was a stunning example of "men in control."

First -- every single person intimately involved in the funeral were men -- celibate men -- men who has deliberately eschewed the counsel or wisdom of any woman. While PJP2 may have venerated Mary, it made little impression on him in terms of believing that women are equal or as valid as men. Nuns do not give counsel, do not perform masses, and are obedient to the male hierarchy.

Even the choir was all male.

The heads of state -- all male, some with wives carefully veiled. Since they were not inside the church itself, the ritual or tradition to be covered did not apply -- it certainly didn't apply to all of the ordinary pilgrims who also attended.

While I appreciated the ecunemical aspect of the service, there were no women present amongst the ranks of the other churches, either. Not a single political or theological dignitary was female.

Only Hindus have a delightful pantheon of female deities.

Women want to know why they are 2nd class citizens all over the world? Take a look at the religions that are currently dominating the authoritarian structure.

[Piperay]

44. I agree

I know many here disagree but I was touched by it.

[SoCalDem]

45. No one lives forever, he had a great life and all funerals are sad

because they remind us all of what's ahead for us.

I was raised catholic, and I never really bought into the whole "Pope" thing. Some old guy across the world telling ME what I could and could not do, just didn't "cut it".

The Vatican is a WEALTHY enclave for a bunch of old guys in fancy dresses who like to boss people around.

The fact that the church claims to love poor people, and encourages them to be so "fruitful" has always apalled me. As with most things, it's about the power and wealth of a few, at the expense of the many.

Was I glad he died? Nope
Did it "move" me? Not really ( I saw lots of pomp and circumstance and display of great wealth

For people who believe, and thought the pope was the best thing since Wonder Bread, they had a gigantic dose of what their "offerings" go for each week, and I am sure they were gratified by the glory of it, and I am happy for them.

The media lapped it all up like kittens at a saucer, and I am sure they all enjoyed it..especially Chris Jansing who has been in Rome since "the pope took ill" .. That's a plum assignment Papal DeathWatch...3-4 weeks in Rome with an expense account.

Cynic that I am, I do not expect others to agreee...just my .02 :hi:

[mr blur]

47. By not buying in to all this stuff

I mean no offence intended to anyone but to an atheist all of this seems absurd. Glorifying someone for what he is rather than who he was/what he actually did doesn't seem that far removed from all the millions who seem to worship Bush no matter what he does. I'm afraid that the very thing which gives you "hope for humanity" makes me feel quite the reverse. And before anyone accuses me of saying something which might upsets their feelings - you asked a question and I'm responding.

[Disturbed]

48. Reading the posts again and thinking about

the millions who are enthralled by the Pope's death makes me feel that most humans are akin to sheep. Maybe that's why Jesus refered to his flock. Sure, belief in religion does comfort many people and gives them a sense of wonder and hope but when people persecute others for not believing what they believe or trying to force laws on others that aren't
basic to most societies, I grit my teeth.

When I think about Vatican I know damn well that Jesus would never feel comfortable amid the pomp and wealth there. Can anyone really picture Jesus wearing those silly outfits and hats and having people kiss his ring?

[JanMichael]

51. Beautiful Mass for a hider ofPedophiles

What moves me the most is that people are caught up in the really neat Catholic pomp and circumstance...and listening to people whine on and on about Poland! Communism! Saved (very few) Jews in WWII! and cannot be bothered to even look up what the man actually accomplished.

That is the absolute power of Religion, the opiate of the masses.

Light up your pipe, and see if you can be moved some more, my friend. But, save some of that opium, because you are going to need it for the horrible future that this man did NOTHING about.

Stephanie

[leftofthedial]

54. Y-a-a-a-a-w-n

think of all the money that was spent

are there no hungry people? no sick people? no social injustice anywhere?

some religion.

[Misunderestimator]

56. What, pray tell, were we left as a "gift?"

The legacy of a man who called gay people evil? The legacy of a man who indirectly help spread HIV infection? The legacy of a man who allowed pedophile priests to hide under the cloak of the church? The legacy of a man who oppressed women with his words and edicts? I'm glad I missed the charade.

[JanMichael]

57. Zip, that's what we're left with, ZIP!

This moaning and crying over this man has left me absolutely perplexted.

I blame the new media and globalisation for the hype and beautification of this most mediocre of reactionaries.