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Pulling it all together: Illegal Immigration and the MInute Men

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:45 PM
Original message
Pulling it all together: Illegal Immigration and the MInute Men
I thought I had better repost with the intentions more clearly stated since some people think I, and others, have been advocating illegals entry. We're not.

Is there a problem with illegal immmigration? You bet. But it is not as dire as people are believing. No, I did not drink the "kool aid". There is a problem. But treating illegals like shit isn't going to stop it. Also, historically, EVERY time there is a recession, the group of imigrants that are immigrating at the time are blamed for it--for "taking away American jobs". There are other illegal immigrants as well. Only one poster mentioned the temporary visas LEGALLY giving Indian workers the right to work here for only a fraction of what Americans earn. If I were to ask most peple what the top immigrants coming here illegally were, I bet most people would say that the vast vast majority are Mexicans. Someone said "83%" Which isn't true. People seem to believe we are being overrun by Mexicans, and it's not true. People compare them to parasites, ants, floods...any of those names ring a bell? Look back and see what they called the Chinese, Italians, Polish, Irish...whoever happened to be the scapegoat at the time. But America doesn't have to worry. THe precious whiteness will be saved.

And saying "well I only care because I care about the illegals" is like Southerners saying that slavery protected slaves from evil Northerners. Mexicans don't give a shit about their living conditions. Do you think they would risk everything they do if they didn't NEED to? They'll work in such conditions even if they only earn 100 dollars a week because that is 10 times what they earn at home. Sometimes more. Even if conditions ARE horrible, they are still better than before. So the "for their own benefit" doesn't work. The conditions would have to be very very very poor to be worse than where they came from.

The legal immigrants aren't a drain on the economy, don't take jobs from Americans, don't lower wages (because they aren't afriad to report bad employers), don't bring down the environment and don't live off of welfare. And if you are complaining because you see Mexicans everywhere, the odds are that he or she is legal. Yet when people complain about how many Mexicans there are everywhere, they lump every brown person they see together and think "illegal".

I guarantee you, if Canadians were coming in, nobody would allow people to stand at the border with guns. Nobody would stand for them being called "ants" or "parasites". And if you saw a bunch of white people together, "illegals" would not be the thought that crossed your mind.

People defend these minute men. Not their freedom of speech, but their actualy mission. Why? This same method has led to bloodshed before on more than one occasion. You never hear about it because who cares if a couple of illegals go missing. But look it up--google it. Why do they have guns? The only reason is to terrify the illegals. This is NOT what their mission statement is. They claim they will not do anything but call the border patrol. They will "detain" illegals. How? How do they plan to keep people from leaving without physically harming them? They can't. They have no power without their guns and THAT is why they are carrying them. People who only intend to "call" don't bring guns. Either people are being purposely naive in believing that this group will be different from every other group or they just don't care. Would you let the KKK walk into Harlem and keep guns if they said that they would just "call" if they saw a crime? This group has bigots in it. It has white supremacists in it. Do you think they'll hold back? Would you let a group of soldiers that admired the torturers at Abu Ghraib watch detainees unsupervised?

I am familiar with the border. Yes, I live in Indiana/Chicago. But my family lives in Harlingen TX and right on the other side of the border as well. I spend a lot of time there. There aren't waves and waves of people coming in. You can see people TRY to get in, but they are turned away again and again. People will say "we have more immigrants than ever before" but that is like George W. Bush saying he had more votes than any other president. As a percentage, we do NOT have more immigrants than before.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. well said
though look for people to ignore your thoughtful post and instead attack you...*sigh*

i wonder how many of these people have actually had a real conversation with any mexican immigrant, legal or otherwise.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I guess it's not as much fun without an inflammatory title?
:shrug:
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think outsourcing has hurt Americans more than illegal immigration
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 01:51 PM by Selatius
I'm talking comparatively. At the end of the day, it's the same masters who are outsourcing who are also illegally hiring these workers. Also, the US has helped to undermine the economies of many nations thus creating a pool of the underclass willing to immigrate and then be used illegally by private and corporate entities. It works for these masters. They're making great money at everyone else's expense American and otherwise.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I agree.
It is the companies that are to blame. There are loopholes that allow even the Indian Computer programmers to work for 3/4 the wage. Those should be shut.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Ding...ding...ding!
We've got a winner. Evidence, much of it posted on DU the last few days, would point to the fact that undocumented workers contribute more to the economy than undermine it.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Depends on what you mean by "improves" the economy
If you mean that slave labor improves the bottom line of corporate fat cats then you would be correct. If you mean that it improves the earning potential of the average American worker then you would be wrong.

There is no labor shortage in this country, there is if it exists at all a job less recovery currently. The economy as measured by productivity is producing more output for fewer workers employed. If the Clinton years were any indication a tight labor market benefits the vast majority of people in this country. There have been times in the past when there truly were dire labor shortages in this country such as WWII, but I cannot see such conditions arising in the foreseeable future.

The choice posed in the original post between combating labor influxes and outsourcing is a false one. There is no reason we cannot tackle both these issues simultaneously. Beyond tariffs there is very little the government can do to stop multi-national corporations from operating in other countries. Politically it is very hard to out do special interest groups. Sugar tariffs cost millions of people increased grocery prices every year but agricultural lobbyist are very good at what they do. Clearly the United States should not become completely protectionist. I see little logic in attempting to grow rubber trees, coffee or bananas in a climate otherwise unsuited to them. Nor should we favor American wood products against otherwise cheaper Canadian imports. Neither free markets nor political corruption are appropriate ways of approaching trade. Governmental policy should be set by complex economic modeling that attempts to provide the greatest good to most people.

Economic populism on the left and racism on the right are the only factors that can overpower the special interests. I don't agree with the paleocons but much like the Iraq war the two sides may come to the same conclusion by different means.

From a purely selfish standpoint I neither support immigration nor outsourcing. Given the fact that our current capitalistic system is unsustainable why should we be in such a fervor to export to the rest of the world? Our great affluence is derived from our massive consumption of the world's energy and mineral resources, not any sort of unique Yankee ingenuity. Increasing the demand on resources is in no way compatible with the long term survival of our civilization. Sustainability starts with negative or neutral population growth. The United States has a negative rate of population growth without immigration. Of course if you own any sort of real estate you naturally desire an increase in population to assure yourself a positive return. This is true of most publicly traded corporations as well, since you will more likely make a profit when you are growing vs downsizing. A shrinking demand leaves a company with costly fixed assets like plant and equipment. As I see it population growth is an impediment to implementation of needed socialism in the world. I would like to make these choices now while we still have some oil left.

The European Union is facing serious demographic challenges of its own, but in that case immigration is the only thing that can support its rapidly aging population. The European model however at least attempts to regulate the number and type of people they let in to work or live. Free markets unregulated do not promote social equity. Usually as is the case now the rate of wealth concentration exceeds the rate of growth, so somebody is getting screwed. Severe and progressive taxation taxation policies could address this but the chances of this happening are non-existent. Not when Republicans control all three branches of government, your own party is trending right and half of all Americans are morons on a variety of subjects.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree with you a lot on what you say.
I don't really want to expound on what I don't right now. It's miniscule anyway. I was specifically referring to the fact that the majority of undocumented workers do contribute payroll taxes that we will benefit from and that they won't. They don't use a lot of the government services that legal residents do because they can't. They do shop and contribute to our economy.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I think the problem is our whole system encourages exploitation
We compete and try to exploit each other in the world instead of cooperate to survive. Somebody's going to get stepped on, and somebody's going to end up on top, and it's going to cause disturbances such as wars for control of resources or the deprivation of entire populations in 3rd world countries for economic gain.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yes, you are right.
It's a perversion of the free market system so revered in conservative circles. What is perverse is that a real free market system isn't about exploitation but development of the full economic potential of a society. Exploitation only represses true economic development for everyone except an elite upper class.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Exactly
I don't care if business is exploiting the people here or abroad, the result is the same. Huge sums of money in the hands of a few, poverty for everybody else. The solution to both problems are labor and human rights laws in other countries, so they can begin to build a middle class and not need to come here if they don't want to.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. great post and this part explains it all
I guarantee you, if Canadians were coming in, nobody would allow people to stand at the border with guns. Nobody would stand for them being called "ants" or "parasites". And if you saw a bunch of white people together, "illegals" would not be the thought that crossed your mind.


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. But, but, but...
CANADIANS habla Anglaise!!!! ;-)
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think you know my answer to this.
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 02:00 PM by Maestro

:applause:
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. very good post
too bad more people don't recognize the dichotomy you point out between people's support for the Minutemen in the south as compared to if they were doing the same thing along the northern boarder . . .
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. The same folks "protected" white womanhood from black men.
Now they're "protecting" "murka" from desperate brown people robbed of their resources by predatory corporations. They are pathetic, cowardly, bullies of the same stripe that torture animals for a laugh.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's sad that it will take someone being hurt or killed
before people realize what kinds of vigilantes they are at heart.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. It has already happened in the past in 1999
and caused by the mother organizations of these very same people. I am preparing a post on it. There is a lot to pull together, but it will shock you.
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Before that too (30's)
have you ever heard of the Fimbres Apache Expedition? There was several small bands of Apaches that hid out in the Sierra Madre long after Geronimo surrendered. They would survive how they could and occasionally raiding a rancher's property when they had to. It exploded in the 1930's when after Fransisco Fimbres killed some Apaches and they kidnapped his son. All over the country the ads were sent out promising something like a "gentleman's safari" to hunt Apaches. The Mexican govt. would not let them cross the border, and Washington quietly breathed a sigh of relief.
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Yes!
It's the obscenity that is NAFTA.

Do people really think that these immigrants leave their families behind and risk their lives to come here because they really want to? Even the legal immigrants are far from the homes and people they know and love because it's the only way they and their families can survive. Tack onto that the fact that so-called "free trade" agreements have made it possible to make a few people rich while continuing to support poverty levels among the majority of the population. NAFTA was the cause of much of the land being returned to indigenous peoples being taken back again to allow multi-national corporations to come in and rape them for their resources. Add to that much of the land that is now the southwest U.S. was stolen from these people to begin with.

How would anyone here like to leave everything behind and immigrate to India to get their job back at a fraction of the salary?

And unless someone is 100% Native American, they are the children of immigrants who came here for the same reasons.

It helps to put yourself in someone else's shoes before criticizing.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Great post! And not a RW reference yet on this thread!
;-)
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. a people divided
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 04:26 PM by suffragette
Great post. I absolutely agree with what you say.
As this situation has developed, I keep thinking back to a book I once read and thinking about current legislation being pushed.

Many years ago, I read an excellent book called "The Autobiography of Delfino Cuero." Delfino was a member of the Kumeyaay/Diegueno/Kumiai tribe. Why so many names? Delfino was a member of one of the tribes that lived in the border region and which were split by the border. Delfino describes how some of the tribe ended up on one side and were now Americans (though with no documents since many had no US birth certificates) and how others were now Mexican. She also notes how members of the tribe who went to visit relatives in Mexico were not allowed back in the US because of the lack of documents.

So, past history, right? Not really.

From http://www.sandiego.edu/lrc/broaderborders/indigenous.html
Indigenous Peoples on the Border

Indigenous peoples who have been on the North American continent much longer than Mexico, the United States of America and Canada are adversely affected by these countries’ international boundaries. 

The Jay Treaty and the Treaty of Ghent protect the right of tribes whose lands are bisected by U.S.-Canadian border to cross between the two countries. The same protection was not explicitly guaranteed to tribes divided by the U.S.-Mexican border. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo separated the Kumeyaay Indians of California from the Kumiai of Baja California. The Gadsden Purchase separated Tohono O'odham and other tribes in Arizona from their relatives in Sonora, Mexico. 

For many years, indigenous peoples crossed easily between Mexico and the United States, because they were known to border agents and secured inexpensive border crossing cards. Growing restrictions on immigration to the United States over the last decades have made it more difficult for tribes to maintain cross-border ties. Immigration and customs agents often question the border crossings of tribal members, who may lack the  documents and finances necessary for passports and visas.

The Texas Band of Kickapoo Act of 1983 was passed to allow the Kickapoo to cross freely between Texas and Mexico, where they reside.  In recent years, the Tohono O’odham, the Cocopah, and the Yaqui people and the Kumeyaay in California have lobbied to secure their rights to travel across their ancestral lands.


Here's a link to another good article on the situation:
http://www.americaspolicy.org/borderlines/1999/bl62/bl62oview_body.html
Native Communities of the Borderlands: An Introduction

Ironic, isn't it? Who are the immigrants here?

Onto the legislation aspect. The House has already passed a vile bill called HR 418. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:
They attached it (based on an agreement made to Sensenbrenner) to the supplemental budget bill. The Senate is now deciding whether or not to leave it attached (easier to gain passage) or detach it, at which point it would have to be debated on the Senate floor or reattached to something else. HR 418 (aka the Real ID act) has some atrocious parts to it, among them giving the Homeland Security Secretary power ABOVE the law to build barriers and fences along the border (Sec 102), severely restricting the rights of immigrants to gain asylum (Sec 101), empowering bail bondsmen and bounty hunters to pursue, arrest, and detain immigrants (Sec 105) and limiting legal rights to review of the cases (Sec 105, see especially http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17529&c=206).

By capitalizing on people's prejudice, fear and resentment, they are pushing through another bill that limits judicial power, civil and states rights (see the de facto National ID part of the bill (Title II), and basic human rights. If this gets through, the Minutemen are only the beginning. Imagine them with a financial incentive to do this.

edited for typing errors
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Your data overestimates the number of illegal mexicans in the country
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 11:23 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
It is some of the worst data I have ever seen. I have seen the INS report and it does not say that 66% of Mexican immigrants are illegal aliens. Your own post contradicts itself. First you say that there are 30 million Mexican Americans. Then you say that out of that there are 15 million illegal aliens plus 5 million "children of illegal aliens" (which by the way, last time I checked were known as "citizens" if they were born here). You say that this means 66% of the Mexicans here are here illegally. Then you say only 3 million Mexicans are here legally. What happened to the other 7 million?

It is misleading to post those numbers under the heading of INS.

The "minute men" tactic has been tried before and it has ended in blood before. Ask your minute men friends this: Why do you need a gun to call border patrol?

On Edit: I checked the link on your profile. The site is riddled with errors. Some are simple mistakes and some are so far off the mark there is no way the author could have researched at all. The site also links to CIS, one of the most radical, right wing, anti-immigration (particularly Hispanic immigration) sites around.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. rather see border patrol beefed up
Look, our laws should be enforced. I am not sure why we should all take our shoes off before getting on a plane, while just anybody can walk across our southern borders without being challenged. I heard an interview with an embedded KFI reporter with the Minutemen. Apparently they are in a very big drug trafficking area, and their communications systems keep getting jammed due to the people involved in drug traffic. I am wondering if we don't have such lax borders because of CIA involvement in drugs. I agree that the Minutemen is not the best response to the situation, but I feel it is a little bit like a protest movement. The economics of having more or less immigration can be argued from now until doomsday. If it is beneficial for us to have more immigration, then pass a law that allows it!! Don't allow in any and everyone that wants to sneak across the border, when they include drug traffickers, potential terrorists, etc. This is not a racial issue. The fact is that people are not streaming over the borders from Canada in the same numbers. I would say increase border patrol everywhere and then hopefully the Minutemen would just stay home.
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TroubleMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. The problem is not illegal immigration - the problem is greed and ...
hoarding wealth.

Here's what I think:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3397764

We all live on the same planet.

A person without a job in Mexico hurts me the same as a person without a job in the USA.

A suffering child or starving family anywhere to me is the same...it doesn't matter what country they're in.

We need to work at worldwide economic equality and keep people from hoarding wealth. We shouldn't be fighting "illegal immigrants" for the scraps that the super-rich leave behind.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. This reminds me of something...
"People compare them to parasites, ants, floods...any of those names ring a bell?"

Yes: Tutsis, Rwanda.

A most excellent post.
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