Can we discuss Opus Dei please?

[LibraLiz1973]

Tonight on Chris Matthews there was a segment about Opus Dei.
Basically all I have ever read about the group is what was in the DaVinci Code.

on tonights show they had a Father from Opus Dei do some talking. He tried not to sound nuts. But then Pat Buchanan started talking. He says his nieces & nephews are Opus Dei and some of his friends. He then goes on to say how great Opus Dei is. Immediately I realize.. if Pat Buchanan is pro Opus Dei it must be really bad.

Then the Father from Opus Dei starts talking again. Basically Chris is asking about the rumor that Opus Dei wants a pope who is a member of Opus Dei now. And the father says "If you can find a Pope who was closer to Opus Dei than JP2 I'd like to know who it is". Turns out the popes main man, Joaquin Navarro-Valls is Opus Dei. And the Pope made the founder of Opus Dei a Saint.



So I did a bit of surfing on the web & started reading some articles. First of all, I find it hard to believe that there are only 80 million members of Opus Dei in the entire world. That just seems off to me.

Does anyone have any on line Opus Dei stuff I can look at? Point me in a good direction, because now I am interested!





http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/06/eveningnews/main686116.shtml

[Tweed]

As a Catholic....

I'd rather not.... :scared:

Let's just call them 'Kansas Catholics' and leave it at that.

[MuseRider]

14. Kansas Catholics?

Boy that really does explain a lot. Having just fought a battle with them and lost big time I want nothing to do with anyone who could be refered to as a Kansas Catholic!

[deadparrot]

1. Oh, it's a cult.

Been to a couple meetings. A friend of mine was asked to go ot an OD summer camp by another girl, and her mom wouldn't let her go after looking at the place's website.

Official site: http://www.opusdei.org/

Opposition sites: http://www.opusdeialert.com/ and http://www.odan.org/

ODAN is for people who have "survived" it.

[Up2Late]

2. You mean the Opus Dei, the Secret Society...

...the our Supreme Court Justice Tony Scalia is a part of?

Eh, Fagettaboudit.:hide:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. The spy Robert Hansen was Opus Dei, too.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. You mean 80,000, don't you?

That's what it says in the piece (and would explain your surprise at the low number).

I think its membership is by invitation - it's for high fliers, rather than just anyone who wants to join.

[LibraLiz1973]

35. Your totally right. It was 80,000

but I kept thinking it had to be at least a million.
so I typed million instead of thousand

[Tweed]

4. Is Opus Dei controversial?

That question comes from their FAQ section. Anyone that is Frequently Asked "Are you controversial", is controversial as hell!

http://www.opusdei.org/art.php?w=32&p=300

[Alpharetta]

5. 80,000 members, not 80 million

[LittleClarkie]

6. Are those the ones trying to excommunicate Kennedy, Kerry et al

But no pro-choice REPUBLICANS like Guiliani?

[oasis]

11. Good point.

[Warpy]

13. yeah, pretty much

I remember reading about them a couple of years ago. I was skimming through a site that thought they were just peachy and discovered that although males and females live apart, the males are supposed to decamp for a few hours a week so that the females can come in and clean up after them.

Any organization that uses women as unpaid domestics for males who are too precious to do their own shitwork is beneath contempt.

[BeatleBoot]

7. Why start two threads bashing the Pope?

Here's your last one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3437081

Nothing wrong with it, but why start TWO threads?

It would be cool to see it all in one since, in essence, its all basically the same subject

[Dookus]

18. how does this thread bash the Pope?

Or is ANY questioning of ANYTHING Catholic pope-bashing these days?

[BeatleBoot]

25. Here's how

==================================================================
on tonights show they had a Father from Opus Dei do some talking. He tried not to sound nuts. But then Pat Buchanan started talking. He says his nieces & nephews are Opus Dei and some of his friends. He then goes on to say how great Opus Dei is. Immediately I realize.. if Pat Buchanan is pro Opus Dei it must be really bad.

And the father says "If you can find a Pope who was closer to Opus Dei than JP2 I'd like to know who it is".
====================================================================

I think I just read: Opus Dei is nuts and Opus Dei was close to el Papa, therefore one can infer that el Papa was nuts.

But, like I said, there’s nothing wrong with it. Go for it.

My point was – just put it all in one thread.

And if you don’t want to do that fine – it was just a thought - a suggestion.

I ain’t gettin’ huffy about el Papa, trust me.

[Dookus]

27. back in my day

bashing meant taking a bat to somebody's head.

Now you have two degrees of separation from a POSSIBLE criticism and call it bashing. I'm not buying it.

[BeatleBoot]

31. Then don't "buy it"....Back in my day....

Criticism was no big deal. So go for it.

Criticizing the Pope was not my argument, Dookie.

So go for it.

The person just started two threads with the same intent within just a few other threads.

That's all.

[LibraLiz1973]

36. I like the pope... not bashing him! lol

Sorry you read into it that way.
ALso- the pope not being embalmed thing was NOT a bash on the pope.
That's just insane. It is a legitimate question about the Vatican officials who decided not to have him embalmed to see if he was infallible.

[deadparrot]

24. Eh? Bashing the pope?

Where?

[flakey_foont]

8. Opus Dei ??

isn't that the real name of Sheriff Andy Taylor's boy?

[LittleClarkie]

12. No, it's a penguin cult

badumbum.

[lala_rawraw]

10. Simple, Catholic Moonies, much like the Evangelical Repubs...

Only with self mutilation.

[asjr]

17. That is the impression I got from CBS. They must not have

high regard for themselves to self-mutilate. Must be really big sinners.

[Goathead]

15. They did a piece on them on NPR

They interviewed a woman who was in Opus Dei and had apparently been "brainwashed" into being a servant or slave if you will, for the upper echelon people in the organization.

[sundancekid]

16. the list of forbidden authors and books will give you some idea too

look here for that info:

http://www.odan.org/forbidden_books.htm

[whistle]

19. This looks like a fairly detailed link....

http://www.rickross.com/groups/opus.html

[Up2Late]

40. Yes, That site (Rick Ross) Keeps track of every group...

...that anyone has ever suspected of being a cult.

Here' a few more good links, I don't see Opus Dei though.

<http://www.howcultswork.com/>

<http://www.cultwatch.com/>

[LeftyMom]

20. Here's a site I read a while back

It has stories from people who've left Opus Dei and they're disturbing and sad.

http://www.odan.org/

[Eloriel]

21. Here's a little more info

This is Matthew Fox's take on them (from a superb article outlining some of what WASN'T absolutely fabulous about JP2):

discussed here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=117682#117723

Some Reflections on the Recent Papacy of JPII
by Matthew Fox, Ph.D.
http://www.opednews.com/foxmatthew_040405_pope.htm

snip

A prolonged effort to render fascism fashionable. This includes the rushing into canonization of the card-carrying fascist priest who founded the Opus Dei movement even though this man actually praised Adolf Hitler and also denounced women and has been accused of sexual abuse of six young men who are alive today.

The taking of Opus Dei under the hand of the papacy granting it legitimacy and power within and without the Catholic structure.

The conscious destruction and systemic dismanteling of the Liberation Theology movement and the very vital base communities it spawned in Latin America in particular--a move which has opened up Latin America to an onslaught of Pentecostal and right wing religious huckstering. The demise of the Catholic Church in Latin America is now well underway--pentecostals are sweeping away the population--now that this papacy (with the encouragment and support of the CIA) has destroyed liberation theology and replaced it with opus dei bishops and cardinals.

The effort to eliminate theology and replace it with ideology by spreading fear among theologians. The expulsion from the priesthood of three prominent theologians on three continents in the 1990's sent fear into the ranks of theological thinkers since. Those 3 theologians are Leonardo Boff from Latin America; Father Eugene Dreuermann from Germany; and myself in North America.

-- more --

I included 2 extra paragraphs because I think they're so good putting this pope in context politically, but then the whole article is excellent and worth reading, IMO.

Anyway, one of the U.S.'s most prominent thoelogians calls them fascists. That's good enough for me. As a matter of fact, I've come to understand if you scratch ANYone who is rabidly anti-Communist deep enough you basically find a fascist underneath, whether full-blown or merely fascist-friendly.

[DemGirl7]

22. I think I read that Kansas Senator Sam Brownback has some connections

with them, I believe it was mentioned quickly in "What's A Matter with Kansas"

[femme.democratique]

23. very apt description...imagine why Scalia and Hannity love it!

"Opus Dei is often accused in the world press of being a political organisation. In accordance with its Constitution is chiefly interested in the governing classes and in it does seek to acquire political influence. But such influence does not imply a particular political ideology, and in fairness to Opus Dei, during my fourteen years of membership I did not detect any party political intention. Its members do, however, loosely share a spread of political attitudes which vary in emphasis with time and place. These result from its uncompromising anti-communism, its fundamentalist religious outlook, its international business enterprises, and its long affiliation with the business and military classes of Spain. It is therefore, very attractive to the far right. Opus Dei is indeed at bottom a religious organisation, but with various deviant tendencies which I shall attempt to describe. "


http://www.odan.org/tw_inner_world_of_opus_dei.htm

[jean]

26. after reading all this...I wonder how the Da Vinci movie will portray OD

what a shame if the book version of OD is edited out.

[KamaAina]

28. Are any of the papal succession frontrunners Opus Dei?

Basically Chris is asking about the rumor that Opus Dei wants a pope who is a member of Opus Dei now.

I must confess I haven't exactly been following the potential succession like I would, say, the New Hampshire primaries.

The order certainly did fare well under the just-ended papacy, though, and 114 of the 117 voting cardinals were appointed therein.

I need hardly expound on a potential "Popus Dei"... :scared:

[KamaAina]

32. To answer my own question, it appears that some are at least influenced

by Opus Dei, which is primarliy a lay order.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901021007-356046,00.html

Of course, it is the 120 or so voting-age (under 80 years old) cardinals alone who elect the Pope. And though Opus Dei claims just one such member — Cardinal Juan Luis Cipriani Thorne of Lima, Peru — its influence can be found among an array of other cardinals. Some, like Vatican Secretary of State Angelo Sodano, would be more likely to play kingmaker inside a conclave because of their pivotal vantage point in Rome. Others, like Mexico City Archbishop Norberto Rivera Carrera and recently named Milan Archbishop Dionigi Tettamanzi, are thought to be candidates to become the next Pope.

Tettamanzi is among the favorites... :scared:

[LibraLiz1973]

37. Hmm. They kept showing a photo of

an italian cardinal who they said was very Opus Dei friendly & said it so often I got the impression he was basically IN Opus Dei

[understandinglife]

29. Trace them back to the Spanish inquisition; you'll find all you'll ever...

....need to know to want to keep yourself, your family, and anyone whom you care even remotely, as far away from them as you can.

Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

[KamaAina]

30. Opus Dei founder Escriva was a fascist

this is the guy recently elevated to sainthood!

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s695691.htm

Last weekend saw the canonisation in Rome of the Catholic Church's latest saint: Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer. Born in Spain in 1902, St Josemaria Escriva is famous as the founder of Opus Dei, an organisation officially dedicated to "finding God in work and daily life". But the new saint comes with a controversial past, as does the organisation he founded. Escrivar is reputed to have been a fascist sympathiser, autocratic and abusive toward his critics, while Opus Dei has been accused of secrecy, paranoia toward outsiders and cult-like recruiting practices. This week we take a look at the history of Opus Dei and its founder.

Details or Transcript:

Stephen Crittenden: Welcome to the program.

Today, the controversial canonisation in Rome at the weekend of Josemaria Escriva, the founder of the Catholic movement, Opus Dei. His followers called him ‘Father’, and he described his inner circle as his ‘Apostles’. Some have called Opus Dei a powerful agent for orthodox revival within the Catholic Church. Others see it as an ideologically conservative secret society – a conservative sect – which has managed in a few decades to infiltrate the heart of the Vatican, which has unsavoury connections with international finance, with ultra-conservative political regimes such as Franco’s regime in Spain, and Pinochet’s in Chile, and even with the CIA.

Meanwhile, their new Manhattan headquarters building has two entrances -- one for men and one for women! Truly, these guys are bad news.

[Igel]

33. I don't know anything about them, but I'd rather not have as my

only claim a work of fiction.

I'll add that when I was in the Boy Scouts in the '70s Opus Dei was one of the bejillions of religious groups that had a Scout badge. So it's open to teenagers.

Oh, and the self mutilation is completely optional, and a small portion of it. But I think I got that tidbit from a newspaper.

[seemslikeadream]

34. deeply secretive, often dishonest, oppressive and psychologically damaging

...

Finally, let's look at Opus Dei, the flagellate lay Catholic cult. Members are expected to mortify the flesh with devices such as the cilice, a "spiked chain worn around the upper thigh for two hours each day," to whip themselves to the point of drawing blood, to sleep on the floor once a week, and perform various other practices of physical and mental self-abuse. But consider what former member John Roche says in "Whips, Spiked Garters and Bloodshed - My Terrifying Life in Ruth Kelly's Religious Sect", which first appeared in The Mail on Sunday January 23 (Ruth Kelly is the UK's new education secretary): "Many members are upright Christians but the ethos of its higher levels is deeply secretive, often dishonest, oppressive and psychologically damaging to its members and families."


Justice Antonin Scalia, you may recall, is Opus Dei. How does the mortification of the flesh jibe with his bizarre message last Fall to an audience at Harvard University: "I even take the position that sexual orgies eliminate social tensions and ought to be encouraged"? In other words, could Opus Dei be another secret society in which those who have attained the highest degree are privy to a secret wisdom, which inverts the teachings of the lower orders?

After having progressed through flagellation and mortification - which without a supposed spiritual purpose resembles nothing so much as simple sexual masochism - could the final lesson of Opus Dei be, like that of the Hashshashin, Nothing is true, and everything is permitted?

more
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/04/whats-up-is-down-what-isnt-is.html#comments

[lovuian]

38. It seems to be mainly male

I haven't seen any women in it???

[leftofthedial]

39. The Catholic version of snake handlers

hand me a vipuh!