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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:17 AM
Original message
any mention of impeachment or revolution gets instantly shot down
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 05:51 AM by mopaul
not by all, but by most. just suggest impeaching bush for any number of treasonous acts, and you are instantly explained away.

'well you can't impeach bush, it's just flat out impossible, your suggestion is moot'.

and just try to suggest the notion of taking our government back from the neoconazis and the explaining away begins. 'they control it all', 'it's pointless, they've gotten too powerful', 'people just aren't in the right mood for a revolution'.

or, 'let's not go off the deep end here, let's go through the proper channels, write our congressmen and wait till the next election, and rest assured, america will right itself'.

but all it took to impeach the last legally elected president was a little white sex lie. boy are we impotent! all we can do is stand around and look stunned at bush's piracy, tyranny and genocide, drooling and in awe.

and the assholes stomp all over us and laugh at our lack of action. the world looks on in amazement and wonders why we are allowing it.

we're doing everything except something about it.

---from the dictionary: REVOLUTION:

a : a sudden, radical, or complete change b : a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed c : activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation d : a fundamental change in the way of thinking about or visualizing something : a change of paradigm <the Copernican revolution> e : a changeover in use or preference especially in technology <the computer revolution> <the foreign car revolution>
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Revolution Will Not Be Blogged.
When it happens, don't look for it online.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. okay, tell us how impeachment is possible within the next three years
Which Republican house member will bring forward an impeachment resolution? Which Republicans will serve as prosecutors against Bush? And give us a sense of how you think the numbers (votes) will add up for impeachment. And what about conviction? Who do you have tapped to carry out conviction proceedings? Or is it enough to go through the motion of impeachment for the purpose of public humiliation as the Republicans did to Clinton? And what will their grounds be?

Of if this is to all happen after 2006, have you calculated how many seats are in play and if there is a possibility of gaining a Democratic majority in both houses in order to carry out successful impeachment and conviction proceedings?

Revolution is a completely separate subject. Why have you put them in the same sentence, with no differentiation in your arguments about the two? Which model of revolution do you think the US might follow?

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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
37. if you get an issue that is new/clear cut
and its taken first to the press, and the entire left hammers away on it. I believe Republicans could be shamed/pressured into voting for an impeachment trial.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Quite possible indeed.
Except for the first part. You will not get a "new/clear cut" issue that anybody cares about. Bush will serve out his term, and then, if we haven't gotten over the hopeless fantasy of ousting him before then, and start to concentrate on what we have to do to elect one of our own, well, there will be another Republican in office after him.
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. ousting him isnt the only objective
Pushing an impeachment trial on Bush would show clearly how many people in this country believe he is a criminal. Give weight to the argument, by making it a topic of conversation. As it is now, because the left doesn't push the issue, its not even up for debate at the dinner table. Push it for debate, get the media talking about it. Make the Republicans integrity the subject on every news outlet.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. Never happen - there are NO "honerable" repukes.
ALL repukes loyalty is to their "party" first and foremost - the country be damned.

If bunkerboy was caught sodomizing little boys on stage in full view of everyone - they would still not reprimand him - probably same lame excuse as "wanting to spare the country from the ordeal" crap they used for raygun and king george I.

Never happen.

These repukes have no shame. They prove it over and over.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #69
104. Even if there were some republicans who wanted to
they'd be torn apart by the neocons. Their political career would be completely over, so you know they won't risk it. Only way they would is if the democrats are back in the majority again and the only chance we have of ever getting Bush and company is if we gain back seats next year. That's why we all have to do our best to get people to go and vote in the 2006 elections and vote straight democratic no matter what.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
72. I believe that if handles correctly (grassroots)
election 2006 will be the key....especially if it becomes a DEM blowout. THAT is a message, and election 2006 is also THE revolution..

Disclaimer in advance - My personal viewpoint only,with no facts whatsoever to back my opinion up in any way. :)
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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
83. The Ukarine showed us how to do it!!! The neocons even loved them for it.
Americans just don't have the guts or the discomfort to take to the streets anymore. Blacks fought a good fight and their cause was instantly overtaken by women's rights (and I am not against women's rights, just observing history) and RW-activists. They showed us how when they were desperate and we were ashamed. Now they are disillusioned and we have no shame. Even the insurgents in Iraq are taking a stand. We have stolen elections, and there was no RW criticism of the judges who handed Bush the election in 2000. Now they want to execute those same judges. We are a sorry lot--and notice I said "we."
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #83
100. well that's great
but it's not impeachment. As for forcing a government to step down through popular protest, do you have any ideas on how to make that possible?
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #100
127. My guess is it'll be tthe International Community. Hague. War Crimes.
If this Admin. endangers the rest of the World enough, if our dollar crashes WHEN International investors pull their investments in us... we will no longer be a formidible force. Eventually the World will notice...if they haven't already.
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #127
174. Um...the Hague? We're not part of the ICC. The Hague has no more
authority over the US than I do. Actually, they have less. I can vote.
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. How are you going to impeach him right now?
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 05:32 AM by Meeker Morgan
Get half the pubs in the House and Senate over to our side?

As for Clinton, the pubs controlled the Senate yet the Senate did not convict him. In a perverse way, the failure of that phoney-boloney impeachment set a precedent for not impeaching Bush.

Concentrate on the 2006 election unless you really want a revolution.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
58. If the neoCONs' treasonous activities are exposed,...
,...the whole Republican party would be knocked out of power for forty years IF that party failed to take action.

Impeachment, indictment, imprisonment ARE possible in spite of the obstacles.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
79. No, they aren't.
Our only hope is the next two elections. So far, Bush has not committed 'treason', as defined by the Constitution (look it up). Having an anti-progressive agenda is not treason. Lying is not treason. Torture is not treason. War crimes is not treason. Stealing elections is not treason. And we haven't even made a good case (defined as one that convinces the American public) on any of the above.

Work on the election. Abandon the Bush-bashing. He can never be President again after his term is over with. But another Bush can, or a Cheney. Forget the past, he cleaned our clock and there is nothing that we can do about it. Work to prevent it happening again, not trying to make the last 2 elections come out right.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #79
123. How about his Saudi Arabian friends who took down the WTC?
Sounds treasonous to me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #123
129. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #129
144. Apologies?
No!!! I just want the Dems to get serious about winnig an election. I don't think this kind of talk is.

And remember, Cassanra was always right. And unlistened to.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #123
143. Prove that
Bush had anything to do with it. We are not responsible for what other people do. Did Bush even know any body directly involved?

But, you've missed the point. Unless you can establish a direct connection, and you can't, this is the kind of wild talk that makes the voter laugh at us. Get serious, and get busy.
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Milspec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #79
171. Thanks forgethell
The "out of touch with any sort of real American reality" posts were scaring me.
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Meeker Morgan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
89. So what is a neocon ...
... as distinct from a Republican these days? I mean politicians in Washington, not deluded voters.

We will win in the end, but these guys will never impeach him. Not if he strangled an infant during a press conference.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
95. Hello?
They flat out lied about the Iraq war and when they got caught they just turned right around and: 1) blamed 'bad intelligence' 2) denied that WMD and al qaeda links were why we had to go to war 3) announced a new set of bullshit reasons for continuing the war.

The f*ing media didn't f*ing blink. No WMD no Problem. It is all about freemon and moxy.

The rethuglicans and their allies the dlc-demothuglicans are not going to suddenly have a change-o-heart.

Heck look at the man-whore non scandal. Look at Tom F*ing Delay. Get a freaking clue. THEY DON"T CARE AT ALL. I swear that junior could be caught in bed with a dead juvenile male baboon and the FuckedMedia would not find it worthy of mention and some rovian spin would be slimed to take care of the pesky 'blogo-f*ing-Sphere' complaining about underage homo-necro-bestiality in the white house. Judy Woodruff's scraggly neck would be all stiff and all as she squawked the latest talking points on order. Big Tim Russert would be asking about just how much like reagan and the pope saint bush will be remembered as.

They ain't gonna save us and they are getting all primed to shoot us down like dogs if we try anything like a ukranian revolution. Are you ready for that?
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MrNiceGuyDied Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #95
125. great post n/t
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #95
163. Not only did the media not blink...
they praised Bush for bringing democracy to the middle east!! That is like praising a doctor for a successful heart transplant when the patient needed an appendectomy!!

I cannot believe how fucking lazy and ignorant the media has become. They swallow all of the bullshit that they are fed and never think to dig deeper and maybe find out "the truth".

Oh heavens, the am'urkan people can't handle the truth.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
105. I agree
2006 is the most important thing right now. It means we have a chance. Talk to people about issues that matter and tell them why they should vote democratic and the only way we'll ever have change in this country for the better is if we all work together with our democratic reps and the republicans can get rid of the neocons.
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jukes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. our founding fathers wd be ashamed
it's past time to take our country back.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. BTW, who was doing the impeaching last time...?
... same folks that are in power now, and for purely partisan purposes.

The question is never does Bush deserve it (the answer is, of course, emphatically, yes). The question is of its likelihood. That's what others (and myself) suggest when the subject comes up, because, in the current environment, it's politically unrealistic. One of the worst things one can do is waste time and energy on the politically impossible.

What changes that? Changing Congress. Voting the bastards out of power.

My hope right now is that it won't come to some kind of revolution (mostly because I get shivers thinking about a lot of crazy people running around with guns). Besides, most of the public is too occupied with their own lives to actually get up off the sofa and take part. Maybe those Laverne and Shirley re-runs are really absorbing, y'know.

In the midst of the depression in 1932, it didn't take a revolution--it just took a majority of people to be aggravated enough to throw the bastards out. And that's where I think we're headed--it will take some bad times for it to hit home with the average person, that they've been taken to the cleaners, that they've been lied to and abused, all to fill the pockets of the wealthy in the country. When they figure that out, they will get angry and throw the bastards out, but probably not until the bad times poke them in the chest a couple of times, hard.

Cheers.



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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. why does everyone automatically associate revolution with violence?
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 05:43 AM by mopaul
a : a sudden, radical, or complete change b : a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed c : activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation d : a fundamental change in the way of thinking about or visualizing something : a change of paradigm <the Copernican revolution> e : a changeover in use or preference especially in technology <the computer revolution> <the foreign car revolution>
-------------------------

........nowhere is violence mentioned in this definition of 'revolution'............

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well, it's either that, or you have to have popular
support.

So, which route are we going?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Maybe because they've always been violent...
... I don't know, but I'd have to say that the major revolutions in the world came about through violence, including our own.

For the most part, sudden change in government (which is the definition of revolution: "an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed") doesn't come without resistance to that change by the existing government. That resistance most often comes in the form of violence and repression.

And, in this country, given its general tendency toward violence, I think the result of revolution would be a violent and repressive reaction by government--especially from the administration we have now.

It's an assumption, as you say, but a reasonable one, based on what this country is.

What I would rather see than violence is perhaps a sophisticated version of civil strife--mass slowdowns on the job, strikes, lots of monkey wrenches in the works. But, truthfully, I don't think this administration would notice--and if they did, the result would be more repression.

The real problem today is that too many people believe the Republicans are acting in the people's best interests--that's why they keep voting for the bastards. That why I say that hard times are far more likely than genuine revolution.

Cheers.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. revolutions don't happen in dictionaries
all historical events that are known as social revolutions were violent. Revolution comes when people have no other way of effecting change, when they are shut out of civic participation.

So true, the Pepsi revolution wasn't violent, but the French, Mexican, Russian, and Iranian Revolutions were.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. no one died the day the soviet union fell
the russian people surrounded the russian white house, over 3 million strong and pushed the fuckers out, and not a drop of blood was shed.

as an example
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Maybe if we catch them while they are sleeping...
:D

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. For heaven's sake
Open a history book. If you pick any one hour or day in an entire revolution and pretend that meant no one died, you're simply lying to yourself.

Shelia Fitzpatrick has a very nice, brief introduction to the Russian Revolution you can pick up at a discount book seller.
Remember one thing, all revolutions involve counter-revolution. They are part and parcel of the same process.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
42. Could this country come up with 3 million people?
Marching to Washington in a peaceful manner to remedy the rotting corrupt government we have in place today?

Can anyone imagine what would run through the minds of all those in their comfortable prim and proper positions, if they seen millions of people ascending upon them to hold them accountable for their corruption and dereliction of their duties?

Would the wealthy among those outraged at our government help cover the cost of the logistics for those without means?

If the logistics of this can be achieved, how many million would it take to strike fear into those who claim to represent us?
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #42
64. The comfortable don't make revolution
and never have. It's absurd to expect they should. People engage in revolution only when no other option is available.
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Griffy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
75. EXACTLY.. had we MARCHED on JAN6th.. Kerry would be prez!
When you show up in person it matters.. when we all show up.. its a revolution... the masses gathering is a show of power, but without a media to spread the truth we had no gathering (I was there only 1000+ or so ppl). By '06 we will have media and truth.. if AAR is an indication, there is a market for the truth! Look at us, starved for truth by the MSM I would bet most of us barely watch TV much anymore...

Nay sayers are scared.. its scary to put your body on that line.. to stand up for what you believe. So if you dont think it cant be done... or you think they won.. get out of the way! Because others are planning to stand up for whats right!

I think we will fight in the media and word of mouth to bring awareness to Americans as to whats really going on. I think we will win... and if we must.. we will march on DC... its only a matter of when, 2 years or 10.. but we will be heard!
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
57. maybe not the day they fell, but there was plenty of bloodshed prior
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 12:53 PM by Snivi Yllom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Soviet_Union

As the Soviet Union moved towards disintegration in 1991, the huge Soviet military played a surprisingly feeble and ineffective role in propping up the dying Soviet system. The military got involved in trying to suppress conflicts and unrest in the Caucasus and central Asia, but it often proved incapable of restoring peace and order. On April 9, 1989, the army, together with MVD units, massacred about 190 demonstrators in Tbilisi in Georgia. The next major crisis occurred in Azerbaijan, when the Soviet army forcibly entered Baku on January 19-20, 1990, removing the rebellious republic government and allegedly killing hundreds of civilians in the process. On January 13, 1991 Soviet forces stormed the State Radio and Television Building and the television retranslation tower in Vilnius, Lithuania, both under opposition control, killing 14 people and injuring 700. This action was perceived by many as heavy-handed and achieved little.

At the crucial moments of the August Coup, arguably the last attempt by the Soviet hardliners to prevent the breakup of the state, some military units did enter Moscow to act against Boris Yeltsin but ultimately refused to crush the protesters surrounding the Russian parliament building. In effect, the leadership of the Soviet military decided to side with Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and thus finally doomed the old order.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. there was plenty in 1917 as well
and surely the OP must know that.
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LdyGuique Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
78. The government of the Soviet Union
was far more repressive for decades with a huge loss of life. The Soviets had agents accompanying the few who were allowed outside of the USSR to specificly prevent their defection to other countries. Here the prevailing attitude is "love it or leave it."

Nothing like the internet was allowed for free expression, not even opposition media. No books were published against the Soviets from within the USSR.

This is not to say that the U.S. doesn't have a range of problems or issues that are repressive; it's just to comment that the issues that drive a revolution aren't bad enough to cause a popular uprising that is strong enough to bring the entire country to a halt.
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
106. There was no military action? Really?
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 11:15 PM by Lone Pawn



You may have missed the part about Russian tanks sieging said White House.

:eyes:

Basic history here.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #6
47. Perhaps because
the only revolution this country has ever seen was violent.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
50. self-deleted. moved.
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 11:06 AM by Discord
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
70. True - remember the Philippines & Russia & the East Block.
Only one major differenct - they SUFFERED for over 50-60 years for it to come to that.

Americans are too fat and lazy and COMFORTABLE to ever consider it.

Only when a people have NOTHING TO LOSE - do they consider revolution.

And the amerikkkan sheeple are too damn comfortable in their McMansions & SUV's to give a damn right now.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
97. General Strike
Non-violent and ties everything up in knots. Need maximum coordiantion for something like that. Used to be an old IWW ideal. Something like this would be most feared by the corporate elite and it's why they work so hard to divide us with wedge issues.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. They control it all.
They've gotten too powerful.

People don't give enough of a shit for a revolution.

Yeah. Basically.

What exactly are you proposing?
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. i'm proposing action
and i'm not advocating violence. and no, i don't have a big plan all worked out, i can barely type and drink coffee at the same time.

just something, anything is all. any kind of action would be good.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Well, what? nt
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. so tell us how. you haven't answered my question above
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. is there a time limit?
what is this...jeopardy?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. LOL!
I gotta go to sleep... I'm a nocturnal rat, you know. ;)

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. not at all, but if you advocate change you should have something proposed
unless of course the point of this is simply to blow smoke.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. you have proven my point
that we are all living under the illusion that there's NOTHING we can do to stop these maniacs.

it's an illusion.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. so enlighten us
what's your solution? If you've got ideas, I would love to hear them.

And I never have maintained there is nothing we can do. Rather, I choose to devote my time to what I believe to be possible. I could sit on the porch and wait for Santa Claus too, but it's probably not the best use of my time.

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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. some refuse to be enlightened by my glorious ass
and i'm not going out of my way to reach them. if you don't want a revolution, fine. why ask my crazy ass? me and you are in the same boat.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. so basically you've got nothing to offer in terms of action
understood. We have repeatedly asked for ideas, and you have given none. Being defensive doesn't cover up for the fact that you have suggested no strategy for action.

One guy doesn't make a revolution. Revolutions are social movements. Read the Fitzpatrick book, do some reading on the French Revolution and theories of what makes a revolution possible: Barrington Moore, Theda Skocpol, Che Guevara, there are countless others. Looking a word up in the dictionary doesn't make you a revolutionary. Revolutions are waged with blood, with the sacrifice of human life. It's not something to be taken lightly. There are specific social and economic circumstances that give rise to revolution. If you do some of that reading, you will learn something about whether pre-conditions in the US are ripe.

Lastly, revolution is only one form of social movement. There are many others, also effective. What they all require are ideas and work. Sitting back and accusing others of not participating in your imaginary revolution doesn't cut it.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. He makes awesome cartoons!
:shrug:

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. that's valuable in itself
I love cartoons, and they can convey important political messages.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. i love it when you scold me
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. didn't you just scold all of us for being reactionary sellouts?
and not going along with your revolution, that you neither define nor offer a strategy for? That in fact was the implicit charge of your OP and some that followed. I ask how you think revolution or impeachment can be brought about, and you accuse me of being defeatist. Looks like the politics of distraction to me. Accuse the rest of us rather than offering a plan.

I share your goal of wanting to change the system. But it's essential that we work on HOW we can do that.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. and YOUR suggestions are welcome as well
i'm too stupid to offer any, seriously.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I can tell you what I'm doing
and it is by no means any kind of definitive solution. I'm working to get Democrats elected. Call me bourgeois, but that's my tactic. I've also joined my local Democratic club, where I'm going to serve on the Executive Committee, and the DEC, where I'm going to serve on the Candidates committee to help identify progressive candidates for local races. I worked like hell for Kerry and I'm going to do everything I can to see a Democrat replace Jeb Bush. Now this isn't especially fun, especially the Democratic party committee stuff, which is frankly like having a root canal without Novocain. But I want to see a party that responds to the concerns of the people rather than corporate interests and party hacks. I'm not going to change things from home, so I'm doing what I can.

There are lots of other ways to make a change: issue campaigns, like voting reform--soooo important. Whatever one does, it needs to be planned. It's not that we wouldn't love Bush out of office, but I'd really prefer to work on building a strong Democratic party that can gain and hold party for years to come.

Others on DU are active in a variety of ways. You might check in to the activism forum to see what's going on currently.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. But what good is all that
If they still control the voting machines?
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #45
62. that's why winning the governorship is central
and local supervisors of elections races. We got rid of Theresa Lapore in Palm Beach county. Voting reform is also important, but since so many of the activists are insisting on paper ballots, I can't work with them to produce something I know is a bad idea.

If people using voting machines as an excuse not to do anything, that we have already submitted to tyranny.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
155. I have not yet submitted to tryanny
I have just lost faith in democracy. I'm waiting for the rest of the country to wake up and demand their country back, by any means possible.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #155
160. we can't wait
we have to take action. Waiting allows them to further their hold on power. It simply is not an option.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
148. You won't ever get much of a response to that one.
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 09:00 AM by TheWatcher
Because no one has an answer.

But there is one.

It's going to be folly, more than likely.

When the Democrats fail by "just that much" in 2006 and 2008, Maybe people will finally face the fact their vote doesn't count.

Until then, "Bush Got More Votes", and other such answers is what you are supposed to accept.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #148
161. so your strategy: make sure the Right tightens their grip on power?
because when you insist any action we take is futile, you contribute to strengthening Right wing dominance. The Christian right has gained power because they have been working on it for thirty years. If we want to prevail, we need to act.

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #38
117. I've decided that acting locally is very important.
Unfortunately, I'm sort of just "feeling things out" at this point. I have to do the surgery "thang" this month and the moving "thang" in June...TWICE!!!

I'm hoping I have something to offer if I get involved. Older people who have been working in the local Dem Party for years already have all the spaces filled and because I haven't worked with them, they don't really listen to much I have to say. I haven't earned their respect, yet. And really, there's no reason they should respect me. I have to earn it. I'm intelligent and eloquent, but I've only ridden the donkey for a couple of years. There's a lot I don't know. Still, I hope I'm strong enough to get involved when the time comes.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. in my area the party activist are all seniors
and they definitely need new blood. It takes time to earn a place, but we have to keep working on it. I agree that local action is essential.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #120
126. I really have no clue what to do...that doesn't help. :D n/t
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
113. If you love it, pay attention. You could learn something.
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Dave Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
48. Perhaps we could all write
letters politely asking every representative to step down.

:7
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
21. not by me. I hold out hope that things will turn on shrub and impeachment
is possible.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. if people REALLY think we are powerless, then we will be
we need to think differently now, our nation needs us.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I agree with that basic premise
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 06:32 AM by imenja
We are NOT powerless to change things. But using our power requires being smart about it. Most importantly, we need to devote ourselves to something that actually benefits the American people. Why assume impeachment does that? Have you thought about the chain of secession? Impeach Bush, we get Cheney. Get rid of Cheney, Hastert is next in line, and with Hastert comes Delay. Check out the Presidential Secession Act.

So is the point change or vengeance? I personally don't want to see Hastert or Delay in the Oval Office.
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. no, vengeance for clinton is not the point, duty is the point
it is our DUTY to overthrow a rotten government.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. and how does impeachment overthrow the government?
It gets rid of Bush. Full stop.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. ...and brings in Cheney.
What's the point of impeachment???
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Most Revolutions take place...
when things are real bad but then look like they are getting better but then they do not. I don't feel there will be a Revolution in Amerika because most Amerikans will not fight the Govt. Right now Amerika is deeply devided and is getting more so every day that the Bush Junta is in control. It is more likely that violence will break out among extreme groups of the right and left than any concerted effort or overthrow the Govt. The Dem Party may have some differences with the Republicans but they are still both corporatist in nature and Capitalists and most Amerikans will uphoald the status quo no matter how bad the ecomony gets. The two wars are not of great concern.

The system must be changed by the people pushing for a multi party system. Research the multi-party possibilities.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. ... though, too many parties might get you a Berlusconi. n/t
:(
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. or a Lula
I can think of worse things.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
121. Eu gosto de Lula!
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
39. it won't happen....
not because it shouldn't (impeachment, that is)...but the public doesn't have the stomach for it. At this point, politically it would hurt the democrats chances in 06. The only thing democrats and progressives should be worried about are the mid-term elections.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
43. MoPaul...there are far too many "centrists" at DU
I have fond memories of quite a few of them shouting down anyone who dared disparage Kerry during his terrible run for President...if you could call it a run anyway.

This is the only revolution people like that understand...




Good luck rallying the centrist sheeple to the cause...it won't happen until they lose everything. Nothing short of a total shock to their system will wake them out of their slumber.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
66. so what's your non-centrist solution?
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. Given the state of affairs in America there isn't much choice...
The Constitution provides us the ability to dissolve the government if we see fit...the time is ripe but there are far too many people who want to keep plodding along with both of these corrupt parties.

I find myself in a rather odd place this late in my life. Once I was a member of the Republicans but discovered they were full of crap. So I moved on to the Democrats and discovered they were full of crap. Here I am now having more in common with the anarchists...

Strange days indeed...

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. we need strategy and action
we cannot afford to throw up our hands. The consequences of doing so are far too dangerous.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Indeed...but I am not proposing that we just throw up our hands...
and I don't believe MoPaul is either.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Here's my beef
If y'all are going to call us centrist or some other pejorative for not following your idea of revolution or impeachment, you need to suggest some sort of strategy or proposal for action. Otherwise, it's empty language than does nothing more than insult people.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. Well, here is the deal...
I followed along with the centrists Democrats plan...it didn't work...neither in 2000 or in 2004.

Do you think the Democrats are going to change between now and 2008 and would it even matter with the specter of electronic voting aiding the Republicans?

So what would you do? Stick with your plan that doesn't work? Or try something different?

It is the height of idiocy to keep repeating an action that doesn't work.

Would you agree?

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. I say take over the party
so we dislodge them from their centrist cowardliness. The Christian Right has gained tremendous power in the Republican party through hard word, through decades of working their way up through the party and putting pressure on politicians. We need to do so the same.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. That is certainly one way of doing it...
However, color me skeptical...of course my plan isn't exactly much better.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. what is your plan?
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #96
134. ?
Dear Sir or Madam...you are exhibiting behaviors of several other Democratic party defenders I have run up against here. Despite the fact that we have been discussing this for almost a day you are feigning ignorance suddenly as to what we are talking about.


If you wish to continue the conversation please drop the pretense of not knowing what I am talking about or "what is my plan".

I don't suffer silly trolls.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. a troll?
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 07:49 AM by imenja
because I asked you what your ideas for changing things are? That is a first. Is it really such an impossible question? Do you really have so little to say? Let me guess. Complaining and not doing one solitary thing. God help this country. No wonder the right dominates so effectively.

It really takes a lot of nerve to criticize people who do try to change things as trolls simply because I ask you what your plan is. When people sit around and complain, insist change isn't possible, and offer or contribute no tactical solution, they do the work of Karl Rove and Tom DeLay better than the right wingers themselves do. You have a fucking lot of nerve calling me a troll. With so many on the left committed to making themselves as useless as possible, The Republicans don't even need activists. You do their job for them. And you accuse us of being centrists? If you don't put your politics into action, pretending to be on the left means NOTHING. Worst yet, in this thread and others like them, you actively work for right wing domination of government. The young people reading these posts who believe you, will decide action is pointless. They believe they can't accomplish anything, so they go watch television or head to the bars. Is it really necessary for you to work so assiduously for Republican control of this country? Don't you think they are accomplishing that well enough as is?
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #135
145. All I ask is...
That you drop the stupid questions...trolls ask stupid questions...if you aren't trolling it is an easy thing to do...

You know full good and well what my point is...it doesn't need to be spelled out and in all honesty it shouldn't be at least not in a public forum.

You and I just have different views of accomplishing the same goal. You are still in the belief that we have some semblance of a democracy in America where people can be voted into office and make a change.

I don't share that view...not anymore anyway.

If we were to continue down your path there are MAJOR obstacles in the way.

1. Campaign finance reform - All funds should be from the government. No private contributions AT ALL. Everyone gets the same amount of funds and FREE air time on the airwaves that the public owns.

2. Electronic voting must be abolished.


Until these two things are addressed your movement is at a standstill. Big money crushes the Democratic Party...not only in fund raising for the Republicans but buying off the Democrats and getting them to betray their base.

The Democrats have betrayed their base and will continue to do so.

I don't fault you for continuing your support of them. Mostly because what I propose takes more guts than sitting at home and voting once in a while. Not everyone has that kind of intestinal fortitude.



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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #145
147. I'm not a mind reader, so it is far from a stupid question
I read all of your posts in this thread before asking that question, and then you respond in an entirely inappropriate and insulting way. Since you had not made clear what your ideas for action were, I could not possible divine them. Your response was stupid, not my question.

I agree in general with the goals you outline above: campaign finance and voting reform. To imagine, however, that can happen outside of the context of the Democratic party makes zero sense. Unless of course you plan on joining the Republicans ans lobbying them to make those changes. Both of these suggestions are political ones, in that they have to do with campaigns and elections. They involve Congress. The party is where you have to advance them.

The Democrats betray the base for two reasons: 1) I don't believe we have much of a base. The left isn't really a Democratic base since many spend more time attacking Democrats and pledging the demise of the party than working to change it. Without a reliable base on the left, the Democrats play to the middle. 2) the party is dominated by those willing to put in the work. In my area, they are senior citizens. I'm one of only three people under 60 involved in my local Democratic club. The County DEC also has a median age of about 72. As a result, the principal issues of concern to Dem politicians here are those than concern seniors most directly.

If you want the party to represent you, you need to pull your sleeves up and get to work. The problem is people think it's going to happen magically. It took the Christian Right 30 years to achieve their power in the Republican party today. Activism and change require time and hard work.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #147
152. You don't have to be a mind reader...
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 11:40 AM by lateo
All you have to do is read this thread starting with MoPaul's first post.

"It's like a finger pointing away to the moon... <slap>
Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."
-- BruceLee, EnterTheDragon (1973)

You don't believe that change can happen outside the Democratic Party?

Wow.

Wow..

I don't know what to say to that sort of talk.

http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?DontLookAtTheFinger
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #152
156. Immaculate legislation and armchair revolutionaries
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 07:11 PM by imenja
Of course change can happen outside the Democratic party, but you mentioned campaign finance and voting reform. They require legislation. How do you propose to accomplish that without the Dem. party? Do you plan on finding Republicans to sponsor such legislation? Or will it be immaculately conceived, appearing spontaneously on the law books one night while we sleep?

You have offered no strategy. You instead denounced us as "centrists." What I see here is yet one more of thousands of posts complaining about the party yet offering no other concrete alternative. While you offered no options until your previous posts laying out legislative goals, MoPaul imagined two scenarios. Impeachment. That would be nice if the only thing we cared about was getting George Bush out of office. Even if it were possible, impeachment will not change the government. It merely moves personnel around: Cheney, Hastert, Delay, and on we go. And of course the numbers work against it. As another poster put it quite simply: we can count. We know a little about civics and the votes necessary for impeachment and conviction. And like any congressional action, it requires legislators, both Democrats and Republicans. Impeachment cannot happen outside the context of either of the parties. As for Revolution, let's hear your plans for how you plan to make that happen. Will you sacrifice your own life for that cause? Because social revolutions are bloody affairs. Despite the rather fanciful notion that revolutions need not be violent, history demonstrates the opposite. That is, of course, if the goal is a social revolution. If your model is the Pepsi Revolution, that is another matter. Drink up.


The comments in this thread bring to mind a quote by the great historian of US slavery Eugene D. Genovese: "Nothing could be more naive--or arrogant--than to ask why a Nat Turner did not appear on every plantation in the South, as if, from the comfort of our living rooms, we have a right to tell others . . when, how, and why to risk their lives and those of their loved ones." (_From Rebellion to Revolution: Afro-American Slave Revolts in the Making of the New World , p.1).

So when you ask what I see in terms of plans that you and MoPaul suggest, the answer is hot air. If you don't like how things are going, propose concrete strategies of how we can change them. But when you dump on those of us who do bother to work for change, and even worse discourage others from acting by arguing it is all futile, that pisses me off. The Right holds power because they are willing to work for it. They don't just sit around and shoot their mouths off. Until the left is willing to devise a strategy for action and work as hard as the right does to bring that about, we will be shut out of power. And those of you who post threads talking about how pointless everything is enable continued Right Wing domination. Frankly I'm fed up with it.





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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. All revolutionaries...
began their career from the armchair...

Myself and MoPaul aren't your enemies...we are just two sides of the same coin. Why don't you save your energy or redirect your anger where it will do more good?

Maybe if you are successful there will be no need for talk of revolution.

I find it pretty amazing that you think I would discuss this sort of action in a public forum and then get indignant when I don't.

Anyway...we can always agree to disagree...





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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #158
162. I still don't know what action you are talking about
because I haven't heard you discuss anyway.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #162
166. I'm sorry...
but as far as I am concerned this conversation has long out-lived its usefulness. There was a time in the past when I would have entertained such idiotic questioning but those that came before ruined it for you.

I am just surprised how similar you are to the others...it makes me think that you are probably one of them but you just changed your DU nickname.

It is like a sad case of deja vu that I am seeing this again...in such replicated detail it is stunning.

Anyway...good day to you sir or madam...and good luck on your mission.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #166
169. I'm sick of the left forming part of the army of Republican domination
Edited on Thu Apr-07-05 05:17 PM by imenja
It's not a difficult question to answer if you have something to say. If you want to encourage others to engage, you need to tell them what you think is useful. Your failure to do so after repeated requests makes clear to me that you have nothing to say. Like thousands of others, you prefer to complain about what others do rather than suggest alternatives. Political activism only takes a desire to make change happen and a willingness to do something about it. There are all kinds of ways to exert change both within and outside of political parities, but you are somehow unable to suggest a single option. You rather dump on those of us who try. So here we have it: a wall of noise and defeatism. Karl Rove's dream come true.

And I have every right to get angry at everyone who assists the Right in their efforts to control this country. When you discourage others to act and offer no alternatives, you are actively contributing to their domination. Ask yourself if you really want to become part of the army of the cultural right-Republican tyranny, because that is what you are doing in this thread.

Because of the thousands of DU posts like yours, I posted this thread expressing my outrage: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1709306

I've come to realize that the greatest enemy we face is the indolent left.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. It sounds like...
you have some issues to work through...good luck with that...

If you are having anger problems you may want to seek professional help.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #170
176. if you have plans to encourage action, post them
on another thread if you like. But when you actively discourage action, you work for the Republicans. That's it. Real simple. If that truly is your goal, keep it up.

And if you're not angry about the state of the country, you're not paying attention. I don't like what the Right is doing to the nation and I don't like the indolent left's enabling of right wing domination.

And if you're a fan of revolution, you shouldn't look so disdainfully upon anger. What do you think fuels social revolution?
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #176
178. Show me a post...
Where I have actively discouraged action...there isn't one. Anger is but one of our emotions...I neither fear it nor deny it...there was a time in my life when anger ruled me.
And then I got help with it...there is no shame in that. It led me to a greater understanding of how to use and channel my anger...when I need to.

You seem to be spraying your anger at anyone who disagrees with you.

Not healthy...and a complete waste of energy.

But like I said before...I'm done with this conversation...

I will reply no further.

Good day to you and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.
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MrNiceGuyDied Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #91
131. Thieves, liars, and cheats
corruption + collusion + nepotism = Hard work ???

Don't fall for their bs. Playing by the rules is always harder than cheating.

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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #131
133. Yes it is and...
given the level of corruption we are witnessing I think it is rather naive to think that it can be fixed by merely getting new people elected.

Perhaps it could work that way but I think it would take so long that , in the end, nothing would be left.

I see the middle of the road Democrats as just a bunch of cowards and spineless cretins. They will go along with the Republicans because they ARE afraid to fight.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #133
138. what do you expect?
if you aren't willing to work to change things, why should you expect anything different? Why would the Democrats consider representing your interests when you devote yourself to ensuring Republican domination by telling progressives that any action is pointless? Your so-called leftist ideas mean nothing if you don't put them into action. The indolent left is the right. They accomplish the same thing: right-wing domination.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #138
141. Did you see the other thread where...
the DLC is threatening the "liberal" wing of the Democratic party?

The DLC said (sic) "fuck the base" we need to project the idea that we are tough on terror.

Which doesn't make any sense to me...we can protect and support the base AND be tough on terror. Its as if we are living in an alternate universe...the Republicans ARE NOT tough on terror but there are elements within our party that defend the idea that they are.

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. So why let them? Why not do something about it?
There is nothing that says the DLC has to exert power, except for the fact we let them because we're too lazy to put in the work ourselves.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #142
146. I agree...
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 08:44 AM by lateo
Why does the DLC have so much moxie withing the Democratic party? They are in the minority but it would seem that they rule the roost.

Here is the thread.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1704557

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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #131
136. so what's the alternative?
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 07:37 AM by imenja
It worked for the right. It can't work for us? Why? Are you we intrinsically less capable? Or is it that people are unwilling to put in the time or energy necessary to do anything? The right dominants for a reason. And that is because we on the left him. and all this bullshit about how taking action accomplishes nothing is Karl Rove and Jerry Falwell's wet dream. When people sit around and complain rather than do anything, they might as well be out working for the Republicans, cause it amounts to the exact same thing.

You may be right that the whole exercise is pointless, but if that's the case, It's not because of the people willing to put in time and energy to change things. It's because the rest of the so-called left do nothing but bitch.
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MrNiceGuyDied Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #66
130. take back the media
protest TV stations.

Stand behind the weather guy when he's "live on the street" with a sign saying TV LIES. Do it at sporting event like john 3:16.

Get good seats and hold up your sign.

the right pretends to hate the media too so the thugs shouldn't get in your face the way they might with a Bush lies sign.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #130
164. I'm with you 100%. That is crucial
So how do we get some rich Dems to cough up the dough to start buying television stations?
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
115. In my experience, only sheep who follow a different sheep actually
use the word "sheeple."
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #115
151. I respectfully disagree
I use the word and I don't follow a different sheep, either.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
44. Impeachment must begin in the Senate.
The repukes control both the House and the Senate. Lately they have been issuing public verbal threats to federal judges with impunity as well.

Combine these facts with the realization that (literally) 18 "protesters" outside a dying womans room demands national mainstream media SATURATION for 3 weeks because it supports a conservative agenda.

Meanwhile, several hundred thousand people can protest the bushtapo, or it's policies and not receive more than a single glance by the same media because it supports a democratic agenda.

Realistically, it is good to talk about impeachment, but the likelihood of pulling it off is nil.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Please, basic civics, no wonder its hopeless.
Impeachment begins in the House, not the Senate. Its a two step process, the house votes to impeach, then the senate holds a trial on the charge.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
73. Yes it does.
I was thinking about the trial which is held in the Senate. Either way, I do not think it would fly. They control the House, the Senate, the media, and are actively threatening the Judiciary.

All of these elements are crucial to an impeachment. I give the effort a snowballs chance in hell
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
157. In actuality, Impeachment should begin with mainstream media. There
Edited on Wed Apr-06-05 07:15 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
has to be direct very publicized pressure to put a fire under the Congress to take action. Their job or **'s.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
46. And they should be shot down.
Constructive change will only brought about by realists, not by people off in a dreamland fantasy.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
49. So which Republicans will you get to vote for impeachment?
Revolutions are notoriously violent.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
51. I'm with you
I would love to see people take to the streets and demand that democracy be restored.

I've lost faith in the democratic system since 2000. I believe not only were the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections were stolen, but the 2002 Florida gubernatorial election as well.

If we take to the streets and it leads to violence, then so be it, but something needs to be done. If they can do it in other countries, why can't we do it here?

I'm through with the whole getting involved attitude because I tried that, and frankly, I found the democrats to be too soft. It's in their nature, this whole "turn the other cheek" mentality, "let's not stoop down to their level" attitude.

It's a losing mentality. And what good does getting involved do if they own the voting machines and control the vote?

We're up against people who have no rules, no morals, no ethics so it's impossible to fight them on a higher moral ground.

This country is still young and I believe revolution can happen. I don't think it will happen anytime soon because most people don't give a fuck about anything other than their own personal life. Very few people are willing to take a real stand.

But I believe the pendulum will swing so far to the right that it is only natural for it to snap back, and don't be surprised if it does so violently.

The problem might be that we spend too much time on the "internets". We discuss these things in theory instead of going out there and taking the bull by the horns.

The internet has proven to be a great tool in uniting democrats and liberals and progressives, but maybe it has made us too passive.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. why 2000?
Why not 1960 or any of the hundreds of fraudulent elections at local, state, and the federal level before 2000?
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #65
154. Because before 2000, most politicians were essentially the same
Big promises to the people with big commitments to their lobbyists.

In 2000, the robbery was just so blatant, and the shrub's action after he was selected so reckless, that it made all the previous fraudulent politicians seem downright honest.

We expect our politicians to be lying, cheating thugs. We just want them to be a little more discrete, out of respect for our country.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #154
165. there have been far worse cases of fraud in US elections
Most of the 19th century, for starters. I doubt Daily ever ran a clean election in Chicago. 2000 was a travesty of Democracy. But if you use that as a reason to give up, you might as well actively campaign for the Republicans. They win because they don't give up. They fight for power and they take it. We need to surpass their level of commitment and organization.
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Discord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
52. Because voilence isn't a requirement in the literal sense of the
word itself, but is a necessary requirement for a sucessful one.

The gov't you would be opposing has a standing military, local and federal police, and a generally RW general malitia.

Oh, and guns... lots of them... and big ones too.

They have the means and resources to quell any rebellion quickly.

I'd love to see some radical non-violent changes in this country... but it just ain't gonna fly.



On the other hand... I would love to see an impeachment being filed.

Mainly to shame what the Repukes are doing, bring media attention to the charges being brought against him and his cohorts, and give them something to worry about besides their steamroll tactics on pushing their agenda.

It would be a very worthwhile distraction to the RW machine.

I wholeheartedly support an impeachment, even if it was bound to fail.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
54. Regarding revolution.
You really need to define your terms. By revolution do you mean completely replacing the constitution, or do you mean Democrats regaining the majority?

Also a revolution is bloodless, or nearly so, if the public is united. The US public is NOT united. It is deeply polarized. About half of the population really does support W. Your revolution would not be able to move among the populace like a fish does in the sea. You would have about half the people ready to shoot YOU !!! So no bloodless revolution.

I have been hearing the revolution BS for about 40 years. It was bullcrap in the 60's and it is bullcrap now.
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
55. Well, impeachment is dumb, and revolution is illegal.
Impeachment is an absolute mathematical impossibility without attaining a majority in Congress. So whining about it and getting all dramatic (Start Drawing Up the Articles of Impeachment! as so many of our more sophomoric members begin their posts) is nothing more than a form of mental masturbation.

Revolution is illegal and subjects those who engage in it to the death penalty. Therefore it is simply impossible to take seriously anyone dumb enough to try to organize one in a public forum like this.

Of course, impeachment and revolution are so dramatic and appeal to the 100% doctrinair types who don't beleive in any kind of political compromise such as is necessary to get elected, and its so much more fun than the drudgery of actually going out and getting involved in politics in order to help elect a democratic majority.

But I guess thats the appeal, masturbation is much more pleasant than actual work.
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. It's ALL about what 'we' are told
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 01:02 PM by OxQQme
Impeachment would be good. A solid statement that 'we' won't take anymore. But reality say's the MSM will spin it to their advantage.
Framing words into the airwaves is where the revolutions is


Truth is the revolution
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Who 'we' need to mass around
in the millions, and point our fingers (not guns) at, is the corporate offices of GEWestinghouseLockheedABCNBCCBSFOX. Large enough masses that it can't be spun into just a few 'whackos' on a Sunday. Use the MSM's power against itself. Aikido style
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. Okay, I like that kind of revolution, like the scientific revolution.
Not necessarily guns in the street, rather a revolution in the way people see things.

I am waiting, and I am also confident it will happen. Unfortunately it may take trauma to open people's eyes. At this point, we probably, as Nader said (and I reviled him for it) we really do need to see the full measure of what kind of disaster these republicans can cause, before the masses of people turn against them. Hoover produced Roosevelt.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
61. I am with you!
Personally, I don't think we have the power now to impeach. After the 2006 elections, then we shall see! However, I think the first part of the revolution should be reclaiming the media!!!! We have to STOP the propaganda!! Many people call MSM and others on their bullshit and we are starting to make headway (sometimes). If we regain control of the media, then we can shed light and the roaches will start to scatter. I am with you!
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
68. War is over if you want it
John Lennon wouldn't fair too well in today's climate, would he?

Despair seems like reality.

Still the mind and the subconscious is where change begins.

I hold in my mind that justice must prevail. That Bush must be ousted before 2008. I don't know how. I don't know who. But if I didn't have a flicker of that hope, illusion, dream, fantasy, necessity-whatever you want to call it-I couldn't go on.

I think if nothing else, we must hold in our minds that possiblity of change is not an illusion but built within the seeds of those that have the power right now. They will bring upon their own downfall. Fascists always do. They have hubris and sheer stupidity working for them.

We all know it must happen. I still think 9/11 is the key to their downfall, since it's been the key to their success.

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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
71. A suggestion: NOBODY on DU uses a touchscreen in 2006
I don't care if it's Diebold, ES&S, Sequoia, etc. No touchscreens. Insist on paper only. If they tell you that you can't have paper, insist on paper anyway.
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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #71
99. Amen. Sit-ins at the polls--millions of us--is the only way.
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #71
107. Wow! We...WON'T VOTE! THAT'LL WORK!
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #107
168. If you can't guarantee that your vote is accurate...
...demand to use a machine that'll tally it accurately. Simple.
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #168
173. And they say "It's very accurate. We can't go around making exceptions
for every paranoid who walks in here."

And then we go and blog about how unfairly we were treated for two weeks and about how the Republicans have 95% of Congress for two years.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
74. I agree with you...
I've been keeping my fingers crossed that someone will find a way to impeach. There must be some great legal minds out there who may be able to figure out a way! I'd say a successful impeachment would in effect tie Cheney & Cos hands and they wouldn't be able to accomplish diddly squat! :bounce:

Calling all great legal minds: we need your help!!!

That being said, I've found that far too many people are just too damned comfortable to do anything to rock the boat. People might not like * but they don't want to hear just how bad he really is. The real truth is just too damned scary or too far out for them and ultimately they just tune it out to make it go away.

A revolution will only occur if we have a Depression, a Draft or WW3.
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. There's only one way to impeach
It requires the House of Representatives. Anything else is illegitimate by defintion.

So, if you want to impeach, the solution is obvious. Win the House. If you want to remove, win the Senate.
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
111. Wrong on that last point.
A revolution will only occur if the government falls. Draft will lead to riots or protests. WW3 will lead to lockstep acceptance of the government. Depression will lead to protests and a mass voting-out of the government. But as long as the government is strong, there will be no revolution.
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
76. There ya go again
next thing you will expect the government to actually follow the law.

Mopaul, you are an impossible idealist. You probably even expect politicians, both Repubs and Dems to actually be honest and work for the public good rather than their own profit.

Oh well.

Why do you suppose that the founders of our government placed a system of checks and balances to keep the different parts of the government from absolute power? It is because it is the nature of the beast to seek more and more power. Same with people. Politicians do NOT work for us. Never have, never will. It is only a system that can check the power grab that people, any people, will attempt if they are not held back.

The enemy is not the government per sey nor really the politicians, it is the loss of the 'system' that is causing the problems. What is really needed is a very inefficient government so busted up inside, always in a internal war with itself, that provides the best form of governance.

Because if the beast does become efficient, who is its real enemy? The beasts enemy is the people, always. That is who is dominated by the beast, the people, us.
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
81. Ah, revolutions
Just about every revolution since France has been a disaster. They're notoriously bloody and brutal. Plus, there's the added benefit that NOTHING CHANGES. Sure, the faces and names of offices change, but that's about it. It's replacing one group of aristocrats with another.

There is also the interesting fact that revolutionary leaders are usually the first to die, or be marginalized, in their struggles. Very rarely do the leaders survive the first generation of the aftermath.

There's also no natural right of revolution. Even if one were to borrow from the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson does say explicitly that when one seeks to supplant one type of government, there needs to be another type ready to go. Nonetheless, the idea of a natural right of revolution is usually found on the far right, not the left.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
84. Because we can all count. n/t
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
85. Democrats are part of the problem..
Right now, the current paradigm for a Democrat is Alan Colmes; a deferential milquetoast who would wet himself at an actual confrontation. No one is expressing the righteous outrage that we all should feel, more importantly, no one in the House or Senate with a (D) after their name. True, Kerry suddenly got a pair after the election, I suppose he vacationed to Oz and petitioned for balls. Boxer has surprised me with her eloquent and vocal rage at the Bush administration. Unfortunately, while the leadership is either selling us all out or haggling over Bush appointees, nothing is being done or said about core economic issues that affect American workers. Even here, if one makes the tangible and real connection between illegal aliens and depressed wages, there is a large faction who appear to be so "progressive" that they would have America become a third world nation. It appears that workers matter for not in this party.

I am sick and tired of it all. We do need a revolution, hopefully a peaceful one. Let a few months pass, let the prices of regular hit $3/gallon, let the Bush Economic Miracle take hold among his faithful and we'll see then. I believe things are only beginning to get bad.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #85
140. WTF is on your avatar?
Why not start listening to him and start working to change the party? Colmes as a "paradigm." How thoroughly ridiculous. The Democratic party don't represent us because we aren't willing to put in the work necessary to change the party. It's the responsibility of every one of us to take action rather than complaining about the party because they haven't set a Messiah to save us. Politics is not a spectator sport.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #140
175. I am...
but I'm so sick and tired of the lack of action on the part of our elected officials.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #175
177. I hear you
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 12:51 AM by imenja
but we need to get progressives to run for office. That's one of Dean's great contributions. DFA identifies and supports progressives.

At a local democratic party meeting tonight, an incredibly dynamic political hopeful gave a speech that earned him a standing ovation. He had the kind of ideas that we've been wanting Democrats to articulate. He's going to run for office in 2006, probably a US House seat. The party will change, even if it means replacing the politicians we now have in office. Democrats have far greater potential than individuals like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton. What we need to keep in mind is that this is a long term struggle. It's not just about the next news cycle or the next election. It's the future of our country.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
87. The impossible just takes longer.
It never hurts to try for what you want. Just don't take the naysayers with you.
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nytemare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
92. If stuff like the pub reaction to Schiavo and gas prices stay up
in 06, we might see a big change. If gas prices stay this high, everything else will have to go up too. Problem is, our wages won't. In Europe, they pay much more for fuel, but they also have great public transport systems, and make a lot more money.

So, I am hoping people will be pissed enough to vote for change. :shrug:
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #92
112. Um...since when does Europe make more money than the US?
US per capita GDP was 32% higher than the EU average in 2000...
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nytemare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #112
132. I am talking of the workers incomes
In Germany and the UK at least, the salaries are much more liveable.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
93. YO, mopaul, Here is some solid impeachment commentary. AMF Bush!
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trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #93
102. We should try for an amendment ... even if it doesn't pass the fact
is that there have been a lot of actions that have happened under this administration that should be treasonable, but as I understand it they are not.

We need to start drawing a line in the sand and say administrations can not do this. Congress shouldn't be allowed to dump the ethics committee members when they don't like the outcome of their deliberations. The Senate should not be allowed to abdicate their oversite responsibilities. If a member of the committee asks for an investigation of say Elections in Ohio, the majority shouldn't be able to just ignore it.

If the MSM actively engages in administration propoganda they should be tried for Treason. If groups who claim to be bipartisan are asked to testify in front of a congressional committee, and they are blatantly partisan, they should be tried for treason.

If a president or members of his/her cabinet lie to the American public in order to go to war with a country it should be treason.

There are just so many things that our government has assumed about political behavior, gentlemen's agreement of how to act, that this administration has just blown out of the water.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
114. Sounds good. An amengment detailing the Bush stuf and saying
it's treason:

1) Going to war on a false case you concoct
2) Not reading memos about terrorist attacks that are immanent (for whatever reason)
3) Selling out American jobs to overseas sweat shops
etc.etc.

Then we could let the Republicans either vote for it (not much chance) or oppose these outrages as a crime against America.

Great idea!
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #114
137. exactly, a list of bush's crimes & failures, & why he must go
it's our damn DUTY to remove these bastards, at least ATTEMPT to.
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Undercover Owl Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
98. IMPEACH!
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 10:14 PM by Undercover Owl
That fucker needs to be impeached ASAP!

This is what I'm adding, upon edit:
That f**king chimpy embarrassment to the US needs to be impeached and sent to the war-crimes prison! (the Hague, Netherlands, I think...or wherever it is)!
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. By whom?
DeLay controls the House.
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Undercover Owl Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #109
128. Don't disrupt my dream!
SHH!
O8)
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
101. Well shit... they have all the machinery...but let's get started. n/t
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
103. It takes leaders to get a revolution off the ground.
Oh wait, we have leaders -- our elected representatives. Oh, wait again...nevermind.

Theme song for our Dem leaders:

Hello....is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you can hear me...is there anyone home?
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #103
118. You don't have to be an elected politician
to be a leader.
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Absolutely not.
So hopefully some "real" leaders will emerge to get us away from this trainwreck that has been our government for 5 years. I'll admit I'm not leader material, but I'm ready and willing to follow any brave souls who would be willing and able to lead us out of this nightmare.
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Nadienne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #119
122. You're not a leader....
Damn, and I was just getting ready to nominate you to lead us out of this mess. :)
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Lone Pawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
108. Impeachment must begin in the House. DeLay owns the House.
Edited on Tue Apr-05-05 11:13 PM by Lone Pawn
No way they're impeaching themselves.

Next order of business: Revolution.

Does. Not. Work. It only works against weak governments. The US government is the strongest government in the world. I'm sorry, this has zero chance of succeeding. Zero. Nothing. Even peaceful revolution does NOT WORK against a strong government. Case in point:





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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
110. nominated. I'm with you MO.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
116. Your title says "impeachment" "revolution" & "shot"
You're a dangerous man - hehe!

All things in time, all things in time...
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
124. KICK
Great topic!
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woosh Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
139. the dems would need to run the table in the house and senate
in the mid-term elections to get it done. I'm not even sure if that many seats are up for grabs in the senate.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
149. A 'revolution' would have to start with the Democratic leadership...
...and what are the odds of that happening?

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves why the Democratic party is so WEAK in the face of unprecedented tyranny?

My theory is that the party has been weakened by Republicans pretending to be Democrats working within to destroy our resolve.

Revolution? First we need an opposition party.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #149
167. Indeed Q...
It is nice to see you are still here...

/longtime DU'er but new nickname.

/formerly Nlighten1

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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #167
179. Good to see you...
...too.

Yeah...I'm still here...but DU has changed...as you can see.

Now we're fighting on two fronts: against the Bush Family Mafia and the 'conservatives' within our own party.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
150. Congress will not vote to impeach.
Nearly all of them are complicit in nearly every one of *'s crimes. The rot has gone too deep to be corrected by due process, I'm afraid.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
153. Don't let us stop you. Lead the way!
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-06-05 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
159. re: "all it took"

> all it took to impeach the last legally elected president was a little white sex lie

I've got to take some issue with that one, respectfully. It took a lot more than just "a little white sex lie" to gin up the impeachment machine. The RW propaganda operation backing up these political maneuvers is both elaborate and insanely thick. And it's worse today than it was in the 90's.

Almost all meaningful terms of political discourse have been deliberately twisted and overlaid with RW-friendly connotations so as to make even the discussion of resistance virtually impossible -- let alone the actuality of it.

And even if you could speak in such a way that you manage to dodge all the layers of RW social conditioning, no one would hear you anyway.

Televised news is "split" between soft-propaganda channels like CNN, et al, and hard-propaganda channels like Fox.

AM radio is almost completely hard-propaganda.

Independent printed news -- what little of it still exists -- goes mostly ignored except for where it can be used to lend false credibility to some pre-existing propaganda narrative (for example, the "Jeff Gannon" story is mentioned by the propaganda-channels, but only to the degree that it can be used to attack non-compromised journalists/bloggers).

I think the biggest problem that progressives have right now is that we're still under the illusion that we're living in a free society, with a free media, free citizens, and the possibility of free debate. Seeing ourselves as still free, we just can't grasp how it is that obvious lies are so easily given wide and frequent dissemination, while obvious truths get tossed right down the Memory Hole. We assume that the fault lies with us -- that we must not be advocating well enough, that we must not be speaking out often enough, that we must not be stating our case clearly enough. We just haven't yet fully grasped the degree to which our society has become totally dominated by right-wing propaganda networks and their social conditioning tactics. It is new territory for our generation, which was raised on conceptions of political freedom and open civil discourse that simply do not exist anymore.

How can one advocate for truth and justice in a world where every statement, every argument, every piece of evidence presented, ends up being seen only through the twisted and distorted lenses of the RW Pravda networks -- both physical and social? How do you argue for truth when discourse itself has been reduced to a "Crossfire" game of "zinging" and "point-scoring", rather than a good faith search for truth?

I don't have the perfect answer. But I do know that we progressives had better be working on this problem, and hard, because until we can address this fundamental corruption of American discourse it's going to get harder and harder and harder for us to stop the advance of the massively-media-backed right-wing machine.

My best sense of it is that they're playing the same propaganda game that totalitarians the world over have always played. That being the case, we need to stop pretending that it's something else, and start treating it as what it is. So until we have a better solution, maybe we just need to dust off the history books, find out how others have combatted it in the past, and start doing likewise.


MDN



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ObaMania Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-07-05 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
172. I say we should take our lead from the West Wing..
.. and invoke the 25th Amendment. Unfit to serve, right?

Maybe that was a subliminal message to all those loyalists who were afraid the show was moving to the right.

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