2. I believe that the people who have the power to do so don't have the guts
It really pisses me of. Can any American hire an attorney to start an impeachment against the president?
These woosy Democrats that won't upset the apple cart had better get off their asses and do something significant. You know darned well that it a Democrat did what Bush has done he'd be hung on a cross by now.
but, the house and senate have to actually do the impeaching. Meaning it ain't gonna happen unless we can take the house and senate by storm in 06. If we can get enough votes we can overcome election fraud and throw the bums on their asses.
It's so disgusting. If a democratic president was in power now and did the exact same things as Bush the republicans would be kicking and screaming and crying and whining to get him out of power. He wouldn't have been able to even give a whole speech about invading. That's what gets me so upset. Over the years the democrats have had all this b.s. pilled on top of them and it's so disgusting because the democrats are the true people's party and the "religious" right would do anything to get rid of us if they could. But Bush? He killed so many of our fellow citizen's but who cares where someone could do something? Even if a republican wanted to get Bush they'd be brought down by Rove and his buddies. :banghead: :rant:
The system of power that you speak of is running in a parallel universe of its own creation now, isolated from realities like looming financial crises, military overextension, as well as enjoying immunity from the usual checks of our political system and the traditional role of antagonist played by the media. It's been like this ever since one branch of gov't (Judiciary) joined with the GOP to usurp the Executive and of course it's gotten even worse with the institution of Permawar Through Terror and the solidification of One Party Rule through the 2002 midterm elections. It doesn't matter a damn whether people think this system works or not or whether there's something that seems like it could intervene or not. It's a One Party Fascist State now and it will keep chugging along, getting crazier and more abusive until it ends in a big catastrophe, like the Third Reich did.
... that can accomplish that task is Congress, through impeachment and trial in the Senate. How likely is that to be done in a Congress dominated by the right wing and members of the President's party?
It's an oft-asked question, and the answer is still the same: this Congress won't entertain the impeachment of its leader, no matter how serious the charges.
It's a sign of the incipient corruption of the body politic.
14. On another thread, someone suggested a "Recall" of an Elected Official
They stated some laws which sounded like it could be easier and more accessible to do than an Impeachment. Of course, since Shrub wasn't technically "legally" elected either time, that COULD pose some problems...OR help things along.
... the first of which is that the Democrats, since they are the minority party, have no control over committees and have no subpoena powers, and, therefore, can't do much in the way of procedural matters.
The second consideration is that most of the Democrats in Congress are under the mistaken notion that they will get more from the Republican majority by cooperating with the `pugs.
You tell me--many Democrats vote for the worst of the bills offered by the `pugs, for the rawest of political purposes--campaign donations--so how exactly are they going to champion the most essential of causes when they don't control Congress?
We've got four more years of desperation to endure. What we most need, once that time is past, are legislators who put the people's interests first and foremost, and that means throwing out a lot of the toadies who are there now--on both sides of the fence....
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 01:28 AM by Undercover Owl
Right now I feel like a 48-year-old-lady sitting at the video poker machine in the neighborhood bar, tapping the cigarette ash with the bejeweled skinny finger. She's got the early onset wrinkles. She's seen her factory closing. Her man left long ago. She's bitter, and there's nothing she wants to do besides gamble her cares away.
They own the media so most people really have no clue of the various crimes of bush and his gang. There has been very little mention of two, make that three actually stolen elections. If we had a real media President Gore would be in his second term now and 1500 GIs would be drinking with their buddies instead of being dead. Not to mention the almost 3000 people who died on 9-11 would still be working in the twin towers.
Plus we haven't given most of Americans a real choice otherwise. We're outgunned by the "liberal media" and all that the Repugs have to do is put out a Talking Point and it's spun wildly by their media machine. The Progressives (note that I didn't say Democrats) don't have anyone with the balls to say that it's bullshit and to tell the majority of Americans that what the current admistration is saying is a LIE.
We need someone that talks to America on their level and won't bullshit them. Someone that won't back down to the Right Wing Media machine and talk sense to the people. We also need Air America and other media sources that put out the truth instead of the lies that Fox News and the RW media spouts now.
especially after it hits more places. I had a non political friend of mine listen to AAR for a day then listen to Rush type crap for another day. He told me the AAR people made a hell of a lot more sense. And I didn't prompt him in the least I just asked him to listen to each for one day and tell me what he thought. He especially liked Randi Rhodes and Ed Schultz (OK he isn't part of AAR but our affiliate here plays him).
that the economy would've grown even more. I was listening to Bernie Ward not too long ago and some guy called in and talked about how things would've been different with 9/11 if Gore was president as he should've been. He already had experience in dealing with Usama BinLaden and Al-Quida so he had all the information and plans from his time with Clinton so he would've made more jobs with putting more people on security at our boarders, ports, airports and the like. Plus we wouldn't have all these enviornment issues either probably since he really cared about the enviornment.
9. They're not finished grabbing what they can while he's still in.
Well, maybe I don't feel that cynical, totally, but in my darkest moments I do. I suppose I can allow for the possibility that they--Dems and good-government Repubs--are waiting for the time to be right, for his lame-duckness to kick in, for a true sign that his power is on the wane, and then they'll move in. Those are my hoping for the best moments. I spend most of my days expecting the worst.
People are afraid of anything that seems utterly insurmountable. Very few people will examine the case for election fraud in this country because they would face a very ugly reality... and then feel obligated to do something about it.
It's SO much easier to kick back and laugh at the 'conspiracy nuts' than it is too examine this administration's sheer criminality. That would feel like the floor has collapsed to most people.
The weak ones take the easy road - and there are many who are too frightened to allow such realization.
An experiment done,to rats..An inhumane one..but it gave us insight.. into learned helplessness.
In this experiment rats were put in cages with electrified cage floors. The rats would jump and jump desperate to keep the shocks off their tender feet. Eventually they got exhausted and could not do anything to escape the torture. They laid there getting zapped..
Than they took these poor rats and shocked them again but this time the cage was left open,they could easily escape..but they didn't even try.
This is what has happened to us.
As kids we rebelled we didn't like being told to do as I say not as I do by adults. The stupidity of school and school bullies and authoritarians,the idea of get good grades or else,we have been in effect psychologically tortured into learned helplessness,until we will not act unless we have leadership' to tell us how.
The cage door in our case has been open,we just forgot we are indeed caged by authoritarians and their system and way of thinking by time we"grew up",we grew ossified in our powerlessness,and we say lines like' you can't beat the system' and'can't do anything about the powers that be,might as well shut up and get by' to explain why we feel so paralyzed and cannot act. Learned helplessness is why battered spouses feel they cannot leave abusers.It's a kind of conditioning. Those of us NOT in abusive relationships say why doesn't she leave the bastard...We can say this because WE are not being psychologically manipulated by that particular relationship..likewise..For citizens this learned helplessness can apply to abusers in government. For all the talk some Americans do wondering why Iraqis accept a Tali ban government,we should not be such hypocrites for we too are in this ...situation ourselves.
Maybe the reason we are so helpless is we have been conditioned to be this way, deliberately by powerful self interests in corporations,religion and government,as our parents were,and the parents before them...
A lot of people who are still into Bush are either because they believe in him and how he's such a good religious evangelical Christian (heh) or they're still clinging to him because of 9/11 and how he was a great "leader" on that day (even though he showed lack of leadership). People don't want to believe that their government is so corrupt and evil. That it's capable of killing a president, stealing two elections, letting 3,000 people die on purpose for their plans of war and then killing more fellow citizen's. Bush has this whole foreign boogeyman enemy with people with Saddam Hussein and Usama BinLaden. They think he's a tough guy but in reality he's just a b.s. puppet man being controlled by Cheney and his wealthy buddies. I remember it took me a long time to believe what happened. After getting passed the shock of it all I'm now more aware of what's going on. It feels like I have this huge secret that I want to scream to people and wake them up from this false reality they're living in and join me back in the real reality. I know though if I told anybody outside of DU or my mother they'd think I'm really nuts and would lock me up.
I talk and talk and talk until I'm blue in the face, but much of the time it's to no avail. So many times I thought I had convinced someone, and then the Puppet-in-Chief and his cable news pundits play right into their emotions with their rhetorical talking points.
But if I told these same people all that I really know, they'd probably find a way to lock me up too. Thank goodness, TIPS didn't come to fruition, I'd be in jail now, and the government would make sure nobody knew it.
Anyway, I still try, sometimes getting through, but I think the primary answer to convince these people is breaking up the corporate owned media, then with an honest media we might see investigative reporting digging deep into this impeachable mess. Sadly, that is a dream while the pugs are in power.
"I regret I have but one life to give for my country." moments before he was hanged?
Can we find one person in power today who can offer the end of his or her career in politics for their country if that's what it takes? I'm not saying it should be easy, especially ones with families to feed, but where in Hell are our heroes today?!
30. He's making a good point. "Political suicide" is required to learn the
truth. Once the truth is out, the proven truth, * and company are history. Imagine what would happen if Powell, for example, told the truth: * is crazy, the books were cooked on WMD, * always wanted to invade Iraq, 911 should/could have been prevented, etc. etc. Now imagine what would happen. There would be a fire-storm of outrage not seen in this country since the civil war but it would be the vast majority of people (like the Shiavo numbers) against * and company.
Any one of cabinet rank who testified to the breadth of fraud and deceit perpetrated by * and company and did so in unambiguous terms would qualify as a Nathan Hale; and that person would blow the lid off of the filth in the WH and Congress.
34. Yeah, but it you're "big" (like Gumby), you can do it or if you make
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 02:36 AM by autorank
a big splash across the media you can get away with it also. With Powell, it would be a breeze. He'd probably get the book deal of all time and some sort of TV show (like the musical "Chicago" which was really about our times, BTW).
65. Well, I'd like to say "pariotism" but that's a stretch.
I saw the latest film version of the Dreyfuss Affair last night. Esterhazy, the person who committed the espionage for money and got Dryfuss in trouble, referred to himeslf as the first "20th Century Man." I'm afraid, we've got a full slate of them in the WH and Congress.
22. Cuz Reagan groomed the public to swallow perpetually bigger Big Lies
and they've been doin it for 25 years now. Demented. Reality is no longer real to people who are constantly lied to. They know it, but don't own it.
Cuz the Greed Decade and the Greed President began the process of dissolving Americans perception of themselves as a nation of citizens with common concerns, a Common Good, a Commonwealth. Greed is Good, Gubmint Bad.
25. Convince Congress they won't be in office anymore unless they do
impeach Bush...and they'll move mountains to get rid of him. Those critters have a keen sense of their own survival.
The thing is, to convince Congress, you'll have to convince the people first...who then put the pressure on Congress.
I don't have much faith in "the people" anymore. Most are too afraid to see what's right in front of them.
I sometimes think "our" government would rather America slowly rot in her own self-satisfied myth than to ever shatter the illusion of American democracy by telling the truth, by actually allowing the people to have a voice...cause I don't think the people have a voice..I think we have the appearance of a voice. Sure, you can write your Congress person, call in to a show, write the media...even vote...but does any of that have the meaning and the power it once did? Maybe those things never really had any power at all.
You can't effectively protest because the government herds us like cattle into "free speech zones"....they don't care if you're protesting 2 miles away...they can't hear you...they can't see you...you aren't bothering them. It's more like a planned opportunity for the "masses" to let off some steam...and life goes on as usual.
I'm not saying protest can't be effective...it can be...when it's allowed to function as it was intended to function. "Free speech zones" are not it's intended function. They defeat the purpose of protesting. You have to make those you are protesting feel the protest...they aren't feeling shit when you're miles away from them behind a fence...
I can't give millions to a candidate...so I can't buy...that's BUY...face time with my Congress person. You shouldn't have to buy time with your representative in a govt. of/for/by the people.
Unless they need something from me like a photo-op(as a military family), I'm not likely to ever get close enough to one my reps. for them to even know I exist, much less hear my concerns. Even as a military family, we're a liberal military family...we don't do right wing. So my voice is further marginalized.
I think many Americans would also believe the lie than to ever face the reality of just how little a democracy America is actually. They hold their heads down, do what they do to survive and feed their families(and I'm not talking the working poor here)...and then look the other way while crimes are being committed against America by her government. Didn't see the crime. Can't testify...won't give a statement...doesn't see the problem. Oh, they vote. Tell themselves they are informed....but they still refuse to bear witness...
They inhale the lie. They exhale the lie. Life goes on...
Maybe you just caught me in a rather pessimistic mood.
28. Nov. 7, 1972 Nixon Elected in Landslide; Aug 8, 1974, Resigns in Disgrace
It takes a little time. Yes, "the system has to work." Nixon had people steal some papers (very important ones I bet)but got re-elected. Remember, our economy was in reasonably good shape. Nevertheless, while Nixon soared overseas (China, the Middle East, Russia) and the economy perked along, he was investigated and impeached.
Well, Bush stole a whole heck of a lot more than papers and we're in tentative times with our economy. Unfortunately, the Republicans control both houses, a major disadvantage for us in 2005. However, Bush is barking mad and "management" is starting to see the very heavy-duty down side. When Fitzgerald moves (if he does), you can start counting. He's done. This one will be fast and furious with lots of drama. I don't think that Bush will get much help from the judiciary this time. He may just get sick (after Cheney is indited!).
If Fitzgerald doesn't move affirmatively against the WH, we need to wait until we have a new congress.
61. Money talks and 'you know what' walks. The fiscal ineptitude of
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 04:52 PM by autorank
BushCo is stunning and "management" is getting extremely upset. Buffett referred to our economy as becoming a "sharecropper society" beholden to foreign interests. The head economist for Chase issued a doomsday projection a couple of months ago. We're always the best place to invest but that's changing. Oops, AMF BushCo. "In $$$'s I Trust" for political futures. Not too many Terri S supporters on Wall Street. Lets hope they unleash Fitzgerald.
ON EDIT: This was my latest full exposition of the impending Bush Exit: --------------------------------------------------------------------- autorank Donating member (1000+ posts) Sat Mar-19-05 03:42 AM Response to Original message
8. Not impeached, "resigned"
"Management" is getting its ducks in line. They have Fitzgerald in place. He may seem to be treading water, taking his time, and he is. The first move will be on Cheney. Fitzgerald will indite someone so close to Cheney, there will be calls for his resignation. Then a "safe" VP will be selected, someone people can agree is "presidential" and not a drooling partisan. Then the press will unleash it's repeated broadsides against * including an, "oh so shocked" investigation of "Gannon." Bush will be driven to the brink mentally and will resign for "health reasons." Mr. Consensus VP of "presidential timber" will move in and try to make sense out of the mess * created. People will not be happy because, at that point, we'll have major economic problems.
Why will this happen? Because * is simply a lunatic and even those who want the tax breaks and regulatory freedom know that a 30% increase in revenues *that are worth nothing* is worse than the revenues they have right now, which can retain some worth if * stops trashing th country. Just as Nixon became to "crazy" for "management," * has become to grossly incompetent. The World Bank and UN appointments will make this clear. He went to Europe to "make friends" and was treated with some restrained respect. Now he's back home and insulting the Europeans with Wolfie and Bolton. People in power know a nut when they see one and they want him gone. Maybe 12 months at the most, and he is history.
Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news. Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.
63. Oh, I agree. Congress will do what it must under tremendous pressure.
It will be more than just us. Remember, the USA is the world franchise for capitalism. BushCo is screwing this up big time (see previous reply). There will be a choreographed scandal, one that's real but released in stages, etc., and that's our chance. We can steal the march on "management" and demand a Democrat ascend! It's coming.
The deal is this: Republicans backed themselves into The Old Way Of Doing Things and The Way Things Were in 1968 and got that to 100%, pushing Democrats out of it, by the early Reagan days. Now, the bad thing about championing TOWODT&TWTW is that it works badly- fails slowly, but consistently. The good thing is that people who are not "elite" give the people championing TOWODT&TWTW 100% of the benefit of the doubt.
Republicans used up most of the benefit of the doubt extended to them in economic affairs in the Eighties, in foreign diplomacy in the early Nineties, in social affairs during the mid- and late Nineties. The latter got Dubya over the top in Florida 2000. He tapped a nearly full reservoir of benefit of the doubt in military foreign affairs via '9/11' and turned that into the vanity adventure in Iraq plus some further tax cuts for his buddies and election in 2004. It's running at the low end of utility. At this point every use of the majority power in the federal government is also maxed out- name a single agency that hasn't been pillaged, plundered, and run into the ground yet.
Leadership/integrity/'values' stuff is more complicated, has been breaking down all along, and is the last thing to go. (For the Old Democrats, think Dan Rostenkowski 1994.) So far the Republican game has been managed so as to shield Dubya personally far more than anyone else. Only the last stages of it are really treated as outrage and scandal, when the target truly is powerless at last and can no longer retaliate, and turns extremely vicious on the part of the victims made along the way by the group now losing power. As it is, they've been using up the cred of every moderate Repub and politico or ally with any kind of major public credibility without scruples or regrets to further their interest- their Supreme Court Five, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, McCain, Pataki and Schwarzenegger, Giuliani, Ashcroft, O'Neill, James Baker, Zell Miller, old George Herbert Bush, now DeLay- to the point that they're refilling their Administration with second or third tier useless nobodies and lackeys. And the same game goes for foreign allies- Blair is getting used up, Aznar lost his legacy, Berlusconi is in trouble, Allawi is a stool pigeon to his people, Chalabi is completely discredited and only useful as a hangman, and so on down the line.
I'm not suggesting national bankrupcy is the way it's going to end. But Republican Party, Inc. is engaged in a bustout. They probably don't even know why, themselves- they just sense that the American future is not defined by people of their variety, so they're going to make all they can out of this last run. They just might take the plumbing fixtures and electrical wiring along with everything else when they leave the White House in '07 or '08. It wouldn't surprise me.
57. One thing that has not been mentioned here, but gives me hope,
is the American people and how transparent most of them are. No matter who the the public person is - singer, actor, politician, etc....the higher they are, the mightier they are, the more perfect they make themselves out to be.....the more the American people want so badly to see them fall. Sometimes they do not even realize what they are waiting for until it happens but once the truth gets out about a person, and the further they have to fall, the more blood the American publics wants and is thirsty for. Nothing satisfies America's blood lust like a fallen hero. You put the information out there for long enough and with a wide enough distribution and sooner or later their thirst for a victim will kick in.
in the highest ranks of the German Army succeeded in that, although it was mainly bad luck that they failed. Asshead Hitler remained in power all the way to the end, with the Red Army just blocks from his bunker.
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