Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Damn! Why Are So Many People Getting Divorced?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 08:57 PM
Original message
Damn! Why Are So Many People Getting Divorced?
Edited on Sun Apr-03-05 08:59 PM by stopbush
Is it just me, or is there an epidemic?

My sister split with her husband of 14 years a few months ago. He walked out (has a girlfriend).

My bro-in-law just filed (his wife moved out in Dec...with the boyfriend) after 13 years...they have 2 kids.

At my daughter's B'day party today, one of the wives (with 2 kids - 7 & 4) said she and her husband are splitting by summer.

It's weird. Long-term relationships. I'm wondering if - and I'm serious here - it's because bushco has so fucked up everything that people are getting very uncomfortable and scared and are taking it out on their family situation. Escapisim at its worst.

Anyone else noticing this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Americans treat divorce like breaking up an informal relationship.
It's sad that they do because divorce often ruins the lives of children and sometimes the two primary participants as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. There are more pressures than ever on married folks
and most of them are the result of 35 years of class warfare against working people. Both sexes are overworked and overtired and there never seems to be enough money or time. Add kids who need clothing, shoes, help with homework, guidance, discipline and everything else and it's no wonder so many families fracture apart.

It doesn't help that too many men were raised feeling entitled to domestic services from a wife and that too many women were raised with the expectation of being supported by a breadwinner.

The miracle to me is that 50% of marriages survive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. The sad thing is
I don't think 50% of marriages survive anymore.
I think the statistic has dropped to 40%
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
92. I thought it was 25 percent.
3 out of 4 marriages don't make it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. 30 years together, 27 married
and my soon-to-be-ex and I are divorcing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. Oh dang.
Sorry to hear this. Divorce sucks no matter what side you're on. The good one or the bad one :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. You've got my sympathy. Also,
you've scared me. MY wife and I have been married for 31 years, and, while I'm not aware of any trouble in the relationship, you never expect it, do you?

Good luck to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. Celebrating lucky 13 this month...
We've had some ROUGH times, espescially around that 7-year mark, but we made it through stronger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SW FL Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Congrats.
Been through some rough times too. Just celebrated 19 last week, we've been together for 21.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. okay....
"I'm wondering if - and I'm serious here - it's because bushco has so fucked up everything that people are getting very uncomfortable and scared and are taking it out on their family situation. "

that's rediculous, man. I agree the divorce rate is really high and I feel like people all around me are splitting up too, but let's not push EVERYTHING bad over on Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
131. let's not push EVERYTHING bad over on Bush?
Oh yes you can. When the economy is bad it makes life harder and there is more stress in a marriage. I believe the number one reason for most fights among married or even unmarried couples is money. I know it is in my marriage but at least we both know who to blame and it is *. He has ruined the economy and he got us into a war to boot. You need to work harder to make less yet the price of everything goes up. The stress is so thick in my house you can cut it with a knife. Been married going on 24 years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Most divorces occur when the child reaches age 7.
Try to figure out why....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. Seven year itch? My parents split when I was that age
neither remarried. The married people I know who are happily married had happily married parents. Since so many of us do not, I think the problem just keeps on snowballing...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #43
103. Off topic but your cats are BEAUTIFUL, specially the first one n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dunedain Donating Member (335 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
56. Odd
Why?

I was married for fourteen years. Shortly after my oldest childs seventh birthday we were divorced.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
66. I was six when my folks split
My son, however, was 15 months when I kicked his father out for cheating.

Granted, I had endured some physical abuse, too, so my decision wasn't off-the-cuff.

I don't know. When I married, I wanted it to be for life and I've had a lot of trouble finding someone else even to just DATE (picky, picky, picky).

So why do you think that divorces occur when the child is about 6 or 7 years old?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
120. Because the kid is in school
Leaving more free time (the devil finds work for idle hands..)?


Gee, this thread is not very encouraging to one finally considering relinquishing his white-knuckle grasp on singledom.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #120
129. When it's with the right person
it's worth it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
125. HMMMM
my oldest was 7 when i divorced (the first time) too....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crandor Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's cause of the gays
They're undermining the sanctity of marriage by using their magic homo-powers to break up straight couples.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I read about that somewhere
all that gayness makes straight men fear committment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
93. "Magic homo-powers."
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 09:47 AM by GOPBasher
LMAO!
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #93
104. I hear they can sees through your clothes and stuff!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. One time, one of them homos picked me up with his telegaynesis and
threw me across the room! It was horrible! Good thing Lord Falwell will rid us of these people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TommyO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #93
119. As one of "those people"...
with magic homo-powers, all I can say is that we break up too. Ended a ten-year relationship last year, and all I can say is that my ex and I are much better friends than as a couple in a relationship (we would have gotten married nine years ago, if we could have).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. Sorry to hear that.
Wow, ten years is a lot. That must hurt, I'm sorry. :-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. When times are tough families suffer
bu$hco has beat the hell out of the working classes and the strain is showing. It is only going to get worse until we Get politicians with some brass ones to stand up to CAPITAL. Everything does not have to favor the interests of capital without considering Labor. Eventually even the greatest richest country will fall.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. This was a problem long before Bush came into office...
seriously, I know we all hate Bush here, but not everything wrong with the world is a result of him.

I am curious too why divorce is so out of control here. I would guess the demands to work unresonable hours, living pay-check to pay-check, and how easy it is to get married (as opposed to divorce)all play a role among other things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you
for backing me up. Lord, I hope Bush doesn't have so much control over my life he can make or break my marriage!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I just don't get it sometimes...
and this isn't a shot at the original poster, it is an observation of mine about DU in general. It is as if to some people the world was really great and there were few problems when Clinton was in office, than BAM! everything goes to hell.

I have started to think DU is just attracting the "looney left" as the number of Bush conspiracies and Bush is the root of all evil posts are growing exponentially. It's like the book 1984 sometimes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I feel that way too... we aren't alone
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KlatooBNikto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. In personal relationships,the best saying is: We have met the enemy and it
is us. Our grandiose expectations at the time of marriage and the demands we put on the other person because of those expectations, undermine the relationship.This becomes especially bad when people who are not strong enough make demands on the other that they cannot meet.People with more realistic expectations and a willingness to tolerate human weakness are the ones likely to have enduring relationships.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
111. Unrealistic expectations are depressingly common
Probably because most people watch too much damn teevee.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. The number one stress on marriage is economics
if you understand this then it is not too crazy to assume that the poor economy and the generaly misery index of the country, being bush's fault might have something to do with the increase in divorce.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Where did you learn that?
I am not saying it is wrong, but I don't necessarly believe it. The majority of divorces I have encountered appeared to be based on work stresses. In fact, I know way more divorcees in the middle class and upper class than in the lower.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Upper and middle class people are not touched by economic stress n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Huh?
How are the upper and middle class not touched by economic stress?

Everyone I know in the middle class has worries about their income and their job future. The few wealthy people I know certainly don't feel it as much, but are touched by it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
105. OK, maybe it's a stretch but could it be politics?
Not necessarily Bush but just strong feelings on both sides, lots of stress. I mean, if I were married to a Republican right now, odds are 10 to 1 I'd walk out on the bastard because I would be walking around totally pissed off at him all the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
109. As a "looney leftist"
I can tell you my observation, and that is the Bush conspiracy crowd has been around DU since 9/12/01.

I consider Clinton a conservative, and I was unhappy with his policies more often than not, but Bush is what I call regressive.

To get back to the point of this thread, I don't know what the divorce stats are now, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more divorces since the economy has worsened, and the Bush admin's war and tax cuts are factors in that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. The Idiot Bu$h is just the hideous head of the beast
When I talk about aWoL I am referencing the whole NeoFascits movement that has declared war on the working people of the world. It is just easier to say bu$h than to say the money whores who have corrupted the American dream broke the social contract and become Corporate parasites instead of Corporate Citizens. But that is just me. If you do not believe that the powers behind the chimp have not harmed you I suggest you check the falling dollar, the declining standard of living and the dismal prospects for our future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thecorster Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. That's fair, but you can't
directly attribute money to divorce. my wife and i are poverty level right now, but we're madly in love and scraping by together. i don't credit that to bush or the economy, just as i wouldnt blame him if things were going south.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
63. The statistics show the correlation between money stress and
divorce. If you are poor and in love more power to you. I am happy for you and wish you all the best. You are not required to blame or credit the Chimp for anything. The facts is that he is spending money like a drunken sailor and cutting taxes for the rich at the same time. He started the illegal immoral imperial war of aggression in Iraq based on lies and is presiding over and hastening the decline of America.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
84. have children entered the picture yet?
If not, then you still have some time to be madly in lust. Bringing children into this world is one sure way to rub the shine off the knob.

I don't know why people look at marriage like it should be wine and roses happily ever after instead of like a business partnership. Most marriages don't last because people are selfish and place their individual needs before the partnerships' needs.


When I was married, my husband and I took our commitment very seriously and realized it was for the rest of our lives. We stuck it out despite all of the obsticals we faced. No, it wasn't easy with work, kids illness, bankruptcy, jobloss. I guess my husband just couldn't take anymore, after 20 years he left us the only way he could, he died.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
126. that may be true in your case
but if there are cracks in a a marriage, money problems will slam those cracks wide open. money is THE number one reason for divorce. *voice of experience talking*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
82. Put into perspective, that makes good sense. MONEY and corporate amerika
are a big factor.

I wish more people would see the dichotomy at work; the party of "family values" also supporting "corporate values" - which are the antithesis of "family values".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. I totally agree. This problem started LONG before Bush came in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. del
Edited on Sun Apr-03-05 09:25 PM by sonicx
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
64. Check the divorce stats vs economic stats over the years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
73. Don't Get Me Wrong Cuz I'm Happily Married...
But how the hell do people AFFORD to get divorced?? Maybe it's just the extra high cost of living here in L.A. but I always wonder. Suddenly you go from on household to two households, one is hard enough! We sometimes have had two incomes but the last few years (kids) are doing one...but even if I went back to work, I couldn't afford my little cottage here by myself and he couldn't afford to subsidize me and a $1200 a mont apt. which is the going rate.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
115. aw c'mon
if more people are divorcing while * is in office, he HAD to have had a part in it.

but i agree that it's been like this for a long time now. i know very few couples that have been married over 20 years, and the few that i know are elderly. out of my immediate family, i've been married/div. twice, as has my brother, and my sister has been married twice, div. once. all of my cousins have been divorced at least once too, but none of my parents or aunts/uncles/g.parents were divorced.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. I have noticed it too.
It is an epidemic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. 'Cause our country is just so f*cked up.
The illusions/delusions we have been and are being fed are being busted by reality.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. Divorce is highest in the red states
amongst typically "Republican" voters: conservative, religious fundamentalist southerners.

Thanks God we have them around to "protect the family."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. Marrying young
Before people really know what they're all about. The early 20s are so crucial to emotional and intellectual development, and the person you love at 18 is not necessarily the person you're going to love at 24. An even bigger problem is the age of first marriage in this cohort. These kids get married right out of high school, or if they're lucky, college, because since they were infants it's been pounded into their brains that:

A) It is their Christian duty to marry and raise a family (and in the woman's case, dedicate all her efforts to being a homemaker).
B) There's no sex until marriage, so of course with all those teen hormones coursing through you you're gonna want to deal with that problem as soon as possible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
98. You forgot C) Shotgun wedding when the hormones win and
the lack of decent public school sex ed combined with parents who don't want to inform their kids at home leads to that first pregnancy. Considerable numbers of these pregnancies are atypical in that a 6 1/2 month to 7 month gestation period results in a 'pre-term' neonate weighing 7 to 9 lbs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. You got it
Reminds me of a family story: Once I was having a discussion about going to the anniversary party of my great-aunt. My comment was "Nothing like spending the afternoon with the good Catholic branch of the family." (Background: Aunt Annie was the only one of my grandfather's siblings who remained in the church after my great-granddad left it because he didn't approve of the priest's habit of knocking up the parochial school girls. She used to lord it over the others about her grandchildren going to the Catholic school while the rest of us heathens had to "settle" for public school. Of course, one of those grandchildren finished 8th grade without actually learning to read, and thus had to be sent to Catholic high school as well, but I digress . . . )

Mom's response: Good Catholics my ass . . . your Aunt Deb (who is in her 50s and never had lived outside her parents' home) still thinks she was a 7-month baby! The scoop is that not only did she get knocked up, but the man in question had to get an annulment from his first wife (they had an infant at the time -- how does that work?)

They see what they want to see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
61. yep

The old pressures and "standards" by which marriages were kept together- and made- are failing people. Times have changed.

I like Donailin's post (below), which really shows the individual person's sense of this. And the way it shows up in the larger picture right now; the Bible Belt is where it's hitting very hard- supposedly worse than anywhere else. 60+% in the oh so moral and 'family values' Heartland, e.g. Oklahoma.

I tell people we went through the same here in Massachusetts. All the same reasons, excuses, ravings, problems. It was between 1980 and 1985, and everyone between 40 and 55 seemed to be divorcing.

It's not the money by itself. Too little and Just Enough and 'too much' money have the same effect on people looking around for Someone Better. It's the sense that everything in life is transitional and a different kind or degree of maturity is called far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. Money is NOT the root of all evil, but rather than the lack of it
Most divorces can be traced to money problems.

Don

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. You mean BUSH & the Republicans are destroying...
The sanctity of marriage?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
132. If I may rephrase that to "The desire for more of it..."
Lots of people have been raised on low incomes and turned out fine.

But anyone, no matter how poor or wealthy, who will do anything more more money, will do evil things.

thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. And the lowest divorce rate in the entire country, you may ask?
Massachussetts.

Good old, liberal Massachussetts.

Tells you a lot about who REALLY has family values, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Sweet. (But....Kerry was divorced, unfortunately.) n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #33
80. I think Julia (the ex) requested annulment
...so technically, the divorce part doesn't count, kids nothwithstanding. Ted Kennedy is remarried as well. But MA senators don't represent their constituency in that regard.

Ironically, the higher the percentage of same sex couples in a state, the lower the divorce rate: http://www.heartheissues.com/gaymarriage-divorce.html Barney Frank needs to get married, now!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibraLiz1973 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here's what I think
Edited on Sun Apr-03-05 09:16 PM by LibraLiz1973
It's our culture.
Look at the type of shows that are on TV:
"Cheaters" "Jerry Springer" "Dr. Phil" "Divorce Court" "Diary of an Affair" (A weekly show!! On TLC no less!)

Even shows I enjoy, like Reba. Show revolves around Reba's husband having an affair & leaving her for his secretary. Desperate Housewives. All of the marriages on that show involve cheating.

There are tons of examples. Movie after movie about cheating, divorce, failed relationships. We're raising a generation of children who think marriage is a expendable. These days EVERYONE gets divorced. Your family, neighbors, friends- all the celebrities they see in the movies and on TV.

The decline in the last 15 years has been swift. Not only are WE seeing it, the kids are too.

More and more people have come to believe that marriage isn't forever. If it doesn't work out, you leave. It's not like how it was when many of us were brought up. Divorce is no longer something that happens to 1 person in the neighborhood. It's an epidemic. And look at how easy it is to get divorced now! It's about 1,000 times easier than it was 20 years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. There is a lot of good stuff in this post...
I often think that in the US there is a "convenience" mentality that has been growing for sometime now...basically, we spend most of our time as consumers, and in that type of environment we basically get what we want. You can buy something use it and return it to big stores like WalMart. You can order almost anything and get it in a few days. There is no waiting, and there can be only a little frustration to keep us happy.

Marriage doesn't work like that. When our TV expectations of marriage aren't realized, when we have a ton of problems outside of marriage, we won't put up for too long with our marriage being a problem...it is just so easy to make-up our minds to get rid of it and be done with "that problem".

I am glad this topic was started as I am contemplating how serious the current relationship I am in is....she and I occasionally mention marriage and at times I think YES, and lately I have been thinking NO WAY....it is good to read so much about the topic to help me balance what I should do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kittykitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
60. 50 years ago, when mothers stayed home and father's worked
I don't remember there being much divorce. When women became empowered with their own incomes and independence, they had opportunity to meet men at the workplace and could become dissatisfied with their own marriages. Now, when second incomes are almost mandatory the same situation exists. Conversely, men have women in the workplace.

The stress of both parents working contributes to difficulty in meeting the needs of children. Children develop problems compounding the stress.

Also the explosion of media, constant discussion and exploitation of extra-marital affairs it has become an easy out if you are dissatisfied with your spouse.

Divorce does not carry the stigma it did 50+ years ago.

Was it better 50+ years ago? Lots of talented women were relegated to childcare and housecleaning. I think there was a novel written about wife-swapping, and martini filled evenings, but I can't remember the name. Just rambling here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #60
86. 50 years ago, there was alot of abuse
of women and children, and women were expected to just keep quiet about it. It wasn't better, especially not for women. We don't really know how many children were harmed physically and psychologically because of terrible marriages.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #86
113. Amen to that
a marriage that lasts a long time doesn't & never did, necessarily indicate that it was a good marriage.

As you've pointed out, back then women had fewer options than they do today. For the most part, they just had to put up with whatever crap their husbands dished out.

And as for day care--women were basically on their own. If a woman worked, she had to line up her own day care, her mother, sister, neighbor, whatever.

Men, too, sometimes had to put up with crap then too, because of the stigma of divorce, "what it would do to the chidren," etc.

It would seem to me that as times get harder, people would be less likely to divorce because of money. True, stresses and strains are greater, but as finances get tighter it's more difficult to move out and set up housekeeping.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mpendragon Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. experience from other cultures
I work with a lot of people from India. Every few months some member of my team goes home for several weeks to get married. One guy I knew didn't know his wife to be until he got to the airport. Their families had given their in-laws-to-be a good check and thought they were good, decent people that seemed compatible. They had a few days for supervised courtship and then invited the whole town to their wedding.

I asked him how that's possible. How could you take off back home for a few weeks to marry a woman you'd only known for a few days? He told me that they had different expectations from marriage. These are successful (by western standards) people, not rural farmers who tend to be more traditional. It seems more like that culture is almost content to just be friends with a quality person.

In the west we have TV, movies, and books that tell us all we really need to be happy for the rest of our lives are the one person in the world that we can be madly in love with for the rest of our lives and expensive toys (cars, boats, beach houses). After a few years of being with a new romance (sometimes months or even weeks) the initial rush of love starts to wear off a little. If you are having sex, the sex begins to get routine and/or less frequent. Being addicted to the feeling of love is a hard high to maintain.

So, people become disappointed with the person they fell in love with and start looking again or find some other distraction to replace the feeling of love or lust that they are missing.

Don't get me wrong, I think that a lot of cultures oppress women in marriage arrangements. I'm just saying that maybe our culture has set our sites too high for marriage and almost everything else they depict.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #24
101. One of the best marriages I know was an Arranged marriage
...and it worked for the very same reasons you cited (according to the wife.)

My take after 20 years (on Oct. 19th): You will fall in & out of love, your moods will change, things happen--you can do this with one person or change partners every time.

The VOWS must be taken seriously: if it were always easy there would be no need to publicly declare the vows in church and before your most beloved family and friends.

Grading your spouse on a curve with other people you know(as opposed to Him versus your fantasy about George Clooney, etc.) helps keep things in perspective.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. Point your finger at the Bush Economic Disaster and Cheap Labor
Cons. People are financially strapped and hurting. Many are working two low paying jobs just to put food on the table.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's because of gays
They are flaunting their lifestyle by getting married in Massachusetts, and making loving, heterosexual couples divorce. It's sickening how they do that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Those happily married gay couples are ganging up with other
happily married gay couples and gang raping straight people, thus turning the happily married straight person who was raped into a flaming homosexual, in turn causing the straight couple to be unhappily married and ending in divorce.. Yes, that is what is happening in the USA...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. Ha!
I was going to say something to that effect, but I couldn't have done it so succinctly. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. Because the so-called "sanctity of marriage" is a crock of shit.
I know many couples (including my parents) who have been married forever, but many, many fail.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
112. *applause*
I gotta remember that one.

:yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
32. 30 years - husband got a job in Florida
Hell no, I won't go. I lived there when I was single and in my 20s. Lasted 6 months and couldn't wait to get on the first bus back to New York.

No way, no shape, no how, will I ever live in Florida again. What is going on there now only confirms how I feel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tactical Progressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
34. We shouldn't be blaming Republicans for this
when we all know this is the kind of thing they love to blame Democrats for.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
35. This woman's opinion: It's the men's fault.
(just kidding) ;-)

Same here...my sister married 18 years. Husband leaving her and the two kids for another woman.

My father, after 18 years, left my mother for another woman.

I was divorced after a few years. He was unfaithful. (But that's not the only reason for the divorce - he was a jerk in other ways, too.)

Hmmmm. I'm beginning to see a pattern here. No loyalty anymore? A male friend of mine said once he's proud to say that when he is in a relationship, he doesn't WANT to see other women. I told him that the real test of love is when you WANT to see others....but don't.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. Divorce rate is over 50% now, I've read. Sad, I guess.
Unless the formerly married are happier.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. Increased divorce rate, increased abortion rate, increased grocery bills
increased powerbills, increased gasoline prices, increased property tax, increased cable bill, increased water bill, increased fucked! We're doomed! Increased force feed of bushitler!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Increased people trying to live beyond their means don't help either n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Yeppity yep...freeps have to keep up with freeps next door....n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
41. Yes. I have a theory:
actually a couple of them. One is that it isn't an absolute stigma to be divorced anymore, so folks don't stay together for the sake of appearances/children like our parents and grandparents did, DESPITE the fact that just as many of them married for all the wrong reasons (pregnancy, pregnancy, and money).

I am divorced. I have introspected for thousands of hours why I married the wrong person. I have one conclusion: my parents failed me by giving me a really dysfunctional view of married life, the Church failed me by the dysfunctional view of sexuality and the role of women being subservient to men and society pressured me into having this ridiculous illusion of an American dream. There is no education on how to pick the right spouse in the home or in the Church. Society pressures us to be married have children get the home the car the dog and a vacation in the summer to the grand canyon while leaving out the important things like marrying your best friend.

Sex will come and go, looks will come and go, wealth will come and go, but CHARACTER, friendship loyalty and a genuine enjoyment of one anothers company is eternal. If you have that with your spouse, the other things very often fall into place. In any case, marry your best friend, the one who you feel completely un-self-concious around and the one who feels the same around you, and you both are completely OK with that.

Another reason is the big hoopla of the wedding itself. I have concluded that you shouldn't get the big wedding until you're married at least ten years. I know SO MANY poeple who wanted to back out, who came to their senses at the last minute, but COULDN'T change their minds. Why? Because of all the money spent, the gown, the tux, the limo, the photographer, the RING, the honeymoon, the florist, the caterer, the invitations, the bridal party and above all: out of town guests like your parents who spent all manner of money on tickets and hotels and gifts. This is also my case. Next thing you know, you marry anyway, have a few kids and try and stick it out for as long as possible. Back in the day, folks stayed together because they HAD to. Men were usually the breadwinners and women raised the kids. And then they would divorce after 20-25 years and redefine themselves as adults. Nowadays, as soon as the kids are in school fulltime and the wife can get a full time job, you see folks split.

I have a million more thoughts on this, but these are off the top of my head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Excellent analysis, Donailin.
I had early marriage/divorce that had these very pressures imposed on it that you outline.

Although I've had several relationships, I waited a L O N G time to get married again. And my caution was such that I even waited a long time in my current relationship to get married -- 12 years together, 5 of those married.

We've been tested by most every seriously corrosive thing the world can throw at a relationship, yet we've endured and come out stronger. :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I'm happy for you
People shouldn't be alone. I am 43, well almost, and I have only figured this stuff out in the last 3-4 years. I haven't dated much at all and I have no real desire to b/c I'm busy raising my teens and I think we've had enough interruptions. I want them to have as much emotional stability as possible. I often hope though, that in a few years when they're in college or off on creating their own life, I can create one for myself with someone else. I believe in marriage, I don't believe I want to be alone in this hard life much longer. If I don't find someone, it will probably be because I have such high standards that no one could live up to them <--and that would be wrong of me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #55
68. I don't mind being alone, but I worry because I devote most of
my time to my son.
Nothing wrong with that, as he's only 5 years - almost 6 years old.
But, from time to time, it occurs to me that he's going to grow up. He's not going to think that I hung the moon and flung the sparkle on the morning lillies.
I have met no one in about two or three years that I want to date, much less marry.
But, I believe in marriage. I married my son's father with the full intention of being with him until I died.
I guess I keep holding out for that anectodal best friend that hasn't materialized, yet, but I've dreamed about the elusive "him" off and on since I was 13.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. Great Post !
I agree with everything you say. I'm divorced after 22 years, and came to most of the same conclusions. I'm trying to pass along what I've learned to my two daughters. The oldest just married at 30 and the younger is getting married this fall. There was some work to convince them that marriage is still a good thing (considering what happened to their parents), but both ARE marrying their best friend! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
62. good ideas
my husband was married before...and he knew going in that she wasn't right for him...but the money (loads of it) had been spent on the fancy wedding and he couldn't back out...
10 months later they were separated.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #41
72. I want to hear more, if you want to tell it.
I getting to a time when I am contemplating the future and relationships and the exact things you are talking about. It would be so valuable to me to receive any more wisdom you care to share.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
128. sure
don't ever marry a macho Cuban that's all charismatic and sounds so romantic when he speaks spanish and dances really really good and makes a lot of money. Chances are, you'll have the misfortune of discovering that like his father, and the generations of fathers before him, that it is pefectly acceptable to have in one home, the maddona figure -- the mother of his children to be tending the dinner and the housekeeping and the childrearing -- while at the same time have the young bimbo dressed in a negligee set up in an apartment, who tends to his sexual fantasies.

FUCK. THAT. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
136. I did this
>In any case, marry your best friend, the one who you feel completely un-self-concious around and the one who feels the same around you, and you both are completely OK with that.<

Tremendous advice.

I am lucky enough to be married to my best friend. We'll be married 12 years in September. We have our ups and downs like any other married couple, but I wouldn't trade him for the aforementioned George Clooney (or anyone else for that matter.)

I had an interesting conversation the other day with a woman in her 50's who's marrying a man she is good friends with. Her former husband died three years ago, and her account of what happened during that marriage is totally different from what I've heard from one of her children. Her adult children are outraged -- after all, he's a bit insecure and doesn't have many social graces. She, on the other hand, isn't overly concerned with it. She enjoys his company, thinks it will be a good partnership, and his family adores her.

Nobody knows what marriages will work, and which ones just don't. At the same time, most of those that stick together got married for other reasons besides blinding lust or financial security.

IMHO,
Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
48. Its the gays. Probably, its the economy. My mom and dad are
going for 54 this June. Check the economy and you'll see an uptick in divorce.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
52. breakups
I have to say that everything around me is stable as far as the home and work go, but I (like so many others) have been walking around in an on-an-off state of depression since the election. Thank God for this website, and the fact that ARA has arrived in Phoenix.
I just saw "The end of suburbia" this afternoon, which quoted VP Cheney as saying that we can see wars for the rest of our lifetimes. Moreover, the film paints a pretty bleak picture of the sustainability of the American way of life, and hints that the political implications for policy will be devastating. With this backdrop, it's not reasonable to say that the current administration is not adversely affecting family and relationships. It's too bad, as during times like these we really should hunker down together.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
53. Romance & Lust Is Over-hyped. Also, We Live In A Throw-Away Culture
that is self-centered. Marriages & families require putting others ahead of oneself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #53
71. Glad to hear
you've got all the answers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #71
85. I'm Still Working On The Meaning Of Life Thing.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #85
90. Gimme a jingle
when you've got it figured out. I want to be the first to hear it. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
75. I agree with you completely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
134. How do you explain the fact that divorce rates are highest
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 06:29 PM by impeachdubya
in "Bible Belt", Red States?

(It's like blaming school shootings on secular humanism or a lack of religion. Funny how so many of them take place in gun-toting, conservative christian communities, isn't it? If that logic held, one would think Marin county would be the hotbed of school violence- but somehow it isn't.)

Maybe when people are told they need to wait until they are married to have sex, they (understandably) marry the first person with whom they feel a deep, abiding lust... out of the need to fulfill what is (much to the bible-thumper crowd's chagrin) a biological imperative. So you have dipshit twentysomethings like Jessica Simpson blathering about how "true love waits" and then eight months after the wedding she has discovered that, sex aside, she has very little in common with the blow-dried goober she has committed to spend her entire life with.

This is not rocket science. When people have more realistic expectations of what marriage entails, when they have spent time in long-term, semi-committed relationships (including co-habitation) previously, then if they WANT to get married- because not everyone should, or has to- I suspect they generally have a more realistic idea of what they are getting into and what it is going to entail.

It is particularly in places where people have these ridiculous fairy-tale notions about things that kids get married too young--- and end up divorcing not long after.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
54. This started
long before Bush got in office. It will probably continue long after he's gone, if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
65. Because for most people,
marriage isn't as wonderful or as much fun as they were led to expect. If more parents would model healthy relationships and teach their kids how to pick good partners instead of teaching them to be all desperate for love and grab the first willing person who walks by, there would be fewer divorces.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
67. I think more and more people are realizing
that marriage is a pretty confused concept. To me, it's stemmed in an archaic, misogynist tradition in which women are considered the property of men. There's no need for that shit anymore in the modern age, despite what our sick, women-murdering government thinks. I'm inherently suspicious of anyone who thinks positively of this backward, fucked-up institutionalization of relationships that should be about choice and reciprocal respect. To me, marriage is the first sign that a relationship has failed. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't value her independence enough that she gets married.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #67
79. I'm just curious,
why are you so hostile to the idea of marriage? Did you arrive at this conclusion based on your life experience or do they teach this stuff in Women's studies?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #79
141. I suspect you nailed it right there
in the last part of your sentence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
142. What a horrendous over-generalization.
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 10:16 PM by impeachdubya
Wow. Just when you think only right-wingers are capable of uttering these kinds of high-test absurdities.

"I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't value her independence enough that she gets married"... Sheesh. I bet you wonder why more people don't show up for your study group, too. In your post, all you left out were a few other time-tested gems, like "all heterosexual sex is rape".

How do you know that other people's marriages aren't about "choice and reciprocal respect"? Where do you get off making those kinds of broad indictments of the choices other people make? To me, the flarm you're floating is just as bad as the right-wing fundies who say things like "all women should be married-- and subservient to their husbands".

All PEOPLE should be free to make up their minds about these things. I don't know where you're getting your "information", but some -many, in fact- people have good marriages, based on mutual respect and deep, deep love.

To my mind, it's very simple. Not everyone should get married-- but everyone should try to mind their own business and extend the same level of respect to other people's life choices as they expect for their own.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
69. Its the gays, James Dobson told me so(/sarcasm)
:silly:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
70. Okay everybody--can the cheap moralizing already
Our culture tells us to expect the sun, moon and stars from marriage. We're supposed to love, sex, companionship, stimulation, economic security and family warmth from marriage. When one of those goes AWOL, we're not given many options for finding it. When our options are exhausted, we're supposed to sit in our misery or else be judged BAD SELFISH FUCKED-UP PEOPLE by people who don't even know us.

I like and love my husband. Like most people, though, we have certain intractable problems and, due to lack of a crystal ball, I cannot guarantee they won't break us up, though I don't really foresee that happening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #70
139. Personally, I don't see why it's remotely any of my business
if other people choose to get divorced.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtyboy Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
74. Ya' Know, there may be an upside to the trend, if it exists....
The ability to get a divorce was out of reach for many women in abusive relationships in the nostalgic days of yore (and remains so for all too many, to this day).

Perhaps some of the perceived pattern change you notice comes from women who have finally been empowered by an increasingly sensitive culture--one that allows for both partners in the relationship to exercise a certain degree of autonomy when evaluating their relative oppression. Back in "the good old days" it was men, and men alone, who had the power to continue or terminate marriages.

Bottom line, I don't generalize judgment when it comes to divorce--and no one should. There are always details that are known only by the involved parties, and unless you are privy to those details, you'll just never, truly, understand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #74
91. THANK YOU
To disapprove of a collective phenomenon is one thing. To extend that disapproval to individuals is bogus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
122. YES!
Divorce isn't always a bad thing. While it was painful to go through, my divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me. What would have been bad is staying in the marriage because divorce wasn't an option, or wasn't as easily available. Sometimes things don't work out. I don't think marriages were happier in the past; I think the taboo against divorce pressured people into staying in unhappy situations that they shouldn't have. I don't view the rise in the divorce rate as a necessarily terrible thing.

I was beginning to think I'd lost my mind reading this thread until your post. Thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
76. Because the U.S. government will not recognize same-sex marriage.
If gay marriages were given full recognition and protection under federal law, then the divorce rate would decrease... :)

SAVE THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE BY RECOGNIZING SAME-SEX MARRIAGE! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
77. Because marriage is not about "love"..it's about commitment
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 04:10 AM by SoCalDem
Love is what gets two people together long enough to share their future goals and aspirations, but the "gooshy-gooey..I-can't-breathe-without-you" stuff fades pretty fast. Everyone mentions the peaks and valleys, but they don't ever tell you how damn DEEP those valleys can get, and as years pile up, so do the hurts and slights that occur in ANY longterm relationship.

No ONE person can meet all your expectations, so instead of blaming the other person, one must alter their own expectations. When you think your partner has not measured up..look in the mirror.. He/she is probably thinking the same of you :)

Children do NOT "strengthen" a relationship. they ADD stress and COST. If you are just hanging on by a thread and a child comes along, things will not miraculously improve...in fact they are often worsened because now the mother has even LESS time to lavish on the man-woman thing...

People used to marry young, and "grew up" together...now we have people in their 30's getting married for the first time, and since they have been on their own for a long time, it;s obvious that they "can" get along by themselves, so they may be more reluctant to stay in a marriage that is not "perfect". Also, when you marry very young, you have little to compare your partner to. If you have been "dating" for 15 years before you marry, there's a lot of "water" under that bridge.

Marriage is not a competition, and yet lots of couples compete..for attention from each other..from the kids..in their outside incomes..compete as a couple with the neighbors and friends, and parents of their kids' friends.. Marriage should be the REFUGE from competition, not just another contest..

People also marry the wrong people. The hot hot hot sexy person you cannot bear to be away from, may not be a good provider, or may have so many faults that the "steam" has hidden from you.

Our best friends divorced many years ago, and neither of them was happier afterwards. they were not happy when they were married either.. It was just a "different unhappiness".

We have been married 35 years, and have had MANY traumas, and happy times too, but he accepts my faults and I accept his. We might have each married other people and been just the same.. or not..who knows? We were each engaged to other people before we met (I was still engaged when we met)... Life is not as long as people think, and sometimes what you :know" is better than what you "hope to gain"..

People jump into marriage too quickly, expect too much, and then bail out too quickly ..sometimes..

If there is any abuse..it's always better to bail ..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KlatooBNikto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. I married a girl when I got out of college at age 22. The girl I married
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 04:36 AM by KlatooBNikto
was one of the cheerleader types, relentlessly happy and cheerful all the time.That is what attracted me first. After setting up house with her, I would try to discuss with her what we should be planning for the future in terms of income, housing, children etc.She would cut me off saying that is all so boring,why can't we just have fun? I had dreams of going to graduate school and she was completetly against it saying why do you need to sit with books all the time.We could be going somewhere and having fun.

I got tired of this after the first few months and stuck with it for nearly four more years thinking that as she grew older she might develop some maturity. That was not to be. So we got divorced. I married a woman who was a profesor at the university where I went to do my graduate studies.Her intelligence, maturity and empathy for things other than material goods has saved me and I have been married to the best woman in the world for the past forty years.On top of her academic duties, she has borne six children, four of them medical school graduates and the runts are just graduating from high school.To say that I have been fortunate would be an understatement.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
96. Excellent post SoCalDem
Sounds very familiar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
81. Most divorces occur because MONEY is somehow involved. Worse,
Odd how that is...

But when money's involved, someone is always PETTY enough to want a divorce (and try to take all the goodies in the process.)

Worse, if people had any of their damn brain cells working, they'd have to see that we need to STAY TOGETHER and not split apart.

BTW: Rampant divorces have been a problem long before * can into the picture. * may have made an impact, but he is not to blame for the concept OF divorce.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. Hyp: SO TRUE! Here's my idea:
Since so smany divorces also roll in a bankruptcy--indeed, oftentimes financial pressures help crash the marriage--why not just get file bankruptcy and just stay married?

My 2 cents from TX, where everybody seems to have divorced someone...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
87. My in-laws, married 46 years, are fighting.
Actually, it's my mother-in-law that is fighting. My FIL won't fight with her. He just leaves after she bashes him for several hours nonstop. Yesterday he left and drove 700 miles to get away from her. My MIL has had an issue with him for forty years, and she hasn't resolved it yet. I hope they don't split.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
88. Last year my cousin and her husband split after like ten years...
He started driving a truck, got on meth, got a girlfriend, freaked out and left. Everyone is divorcing, because :wow: they don't talk to each other before they get married. They just look at each other, think they're hot, and rather than getting ot know someone, they get married after two months. I've been with Skip for five years, we read each other's thoughts. If you're not at this point--BEST FRIENDS--when you're walking down the aisle, DON'T DO IT!!
I wouldn't blame it on Bush...It's been going on for YEARS now.
Duckie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. You don't have to know each other that long to become friends
Hubby and I married a year after we met, but we were older, established people who knew what we wanted. I agree with your assessment: you have to LIKE the other person, which sounds like a no-brainer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
89. There are so many divorces because one of them is married to a
Republican . How could they possibly see eye to eye on anything?Republicans are nasty, selfish, mean, thoughtless, unreasonable, stupid bullheaded evil people!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
purr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
94. I married a republican...
He now says he wish he never voted because of my rants :) On the other hand, I thought of divorce because of my step son. Since we got married, his ex became very bitter and has been brainwashing their son (5) to come between me and hubby and to make my life a living nightmare. I refuse for it to come to divorce, but I do admit, it has been a tempting thought at times.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
97. Are there any statistics for divorces in the US? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
99. I think it's the stress
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 10:05 AM by bloom
and I do think the B**h Administration is partly responsible.

The war, the economy, gas prices, the job situation.... hopelessness.


Sure there are the society attitudes as well, and expectations and such...

It is interesting about the red states - it would be interesting to know more about that. It could be partly the loss of manufacturing jobs and the effect that has had on the economies of the area as whole.... It could be with people not accepting changes to the traditional roles - more tensions with that.

I have two sisters - one nearly got divorced - was in the process - the other one whose divorce recently went through. I would say it was a combination of male chauvinism & economics - threatened by the wife getting an education/job - the other relating to job loss/not really compromising on job support (commute problems)/division of responsibilities/expectations.

P.S. They are Republicans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
100. Because we have a ridiculous fairy-tale
view of marriage. I grew up believing in fairy tales - my handsome prince would come to rescue me from my parents and carry me off to a wonderful castle where I would cook delicious meals and we would have mad wild sex all night, except for Fridays, when he would give me his paycheck and I would go shopping.

He would be devastatingly handsome of course, strong, wise, commanding and of course rich. He would solve every problem that came up, and every problem that I brought with me into the marriage.

Not surprising that none of my husbands lived up to such high expectations - what man could?

Some people should not get married at all - where is it written that we must all couple up like some kind of Noah's ark?

Our mothers should not have told us those fairy tales.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #100
116. I grew up hearing the same nonsense
that I'd marry some rich, professional man who'd take care of me and I wouldn't have to work.

It ain't happened yet. lol

It wasn't just my mother that said that, though; it was implied throughout the society I grew up in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greylyn58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
102. I can't speak for anyone else
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 11:02 AM by Greylyn58
but my ex-husband and I were together 14 years--married 10 of them when he decided he wanted a divorce. Didn't even want to discuss it. He dumped me for a woman he met in an Internet chat room. They married 2 wks after our divorce was final.

My ex and I wanted kids, but I couldn't get pregnant and he decided to look elsewhere. I said we could adopt, but he wanted a natural child, so that was one of the main reasons he dumped me. Funny thing is, the woman he married is older than I am and had grown children. I doubt whether she was going to get pregnant again...of course I could be wrong.

I'm actually glad that we didn't have kids because I wouldn't have wanted them involved in the nastiness that followed. I was hurt and angry for along time after-wards. As much as I love kids I'm twice as happy now since the Shrub took over because this isn't a world I would want them to live in.

I have noticed an increase in divorces. Unfortunately, I think the current divorce rate is ALL due to Bush. The job losses, the cuts in health care, the rise in food, fuel, medicine...everything is all his fault. The pressures most families are feeling are driving them crazy and it is tearing them apart.

I walked away with myself, a few items and my dog, Sheridan, who is my best friend.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #102
110. I married late, in my forties
Edited on Mon Apr-04-05 11:45 AM by catmandu57
for the first and "hopefully" only time.
When I was younger my mother bombarded me with shoulds and give me's. You should be married, give me grandkids was all I heard from her from the time I was eighteen until I finally told her to shut up, I was tired of hearing it.
In those days, when I was hearing her, I had desperation dripping from every pore, and every female I got close to could smell it. The smart ones ran away as fast as they could, except one, we became engaged and before we married that relationship turned into a nightmare.
I look at it now as a blessing, it would never have lasted, and in all probability turned into a living hell, we're both better off.

My brothers on the other hand, both married when they were young, both got divorced, she hated her daughters in law, wouldn't have jack to do with them or the grandkids she demanded.
This was the early eighties and the glorious st. ronnies heydays, the hard times then had a lot to do with their breakups.

In the meantime I met a woman who already had two kids and had her tubes cut after the second, we were together for seventeen years, getting to know one another. we did the cohabitation thing for a while, but that didn't work, more my fault I'm really not a father, and an even worse stepfather. Though we get along great now her boys and I.
A little over three years ago, we decided to make things official, and got married, so we're working on twenty actually. We're best friends, I wasn't sure that she really was what I was looking for when we met, but, we grew into each other, and we're comfortable with each other.
We don't have the stresses of a younger couple, her kids are grown and on their own, and are making a decent life for themselves.

I believe that people marry too young, before they are mature enough to stand up to the financial strains, and sexual wanderings that occur.
Many people grab the first thing on the shelf and when they find it's not what they wanted toss it away.

We have it back wards, it's too easy to get married and harder to split up, we should make it hard to get married, make people think about what they're doing and why they're doing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
108. Societal changes happening fast and furious-
Everything has less of a shelf-life these days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
114. $$$$
it's probably for FIANANCIAL reasons, and you can blame * for that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
powergirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
117. As a divorce lawyer, I can tell you - it's economics
The number one cause of marital discord is financial strife. With the economy tanking, I have had many clients seek to divorce their spouses. Couples who would ordinarily stay together can get pushed over the edge when someone experiences a job loss or a sudden illness not covered by insurance. Then the loss of income feeds on itself - people are unhappy, houses are foreclosed upon, kids are relocated. It's a terrible tragedy. And yes I do hold Bush and his goons responsible for this. These "family values" freaks are destroying families and bringing them to their knees financially.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #117
137. Have you seen an increase in divorices? Do you have statistics?
I started this thread with a purely anecdotal observation, but it earned some excellent responses.

I haven't been able to locate any post-2001 stats on the divorce rate. Can you help?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
118. It's not unusual for divorce/separation rates to rise
when the economy is bad. Hard time finding jobs, hard time paying the bills, etc. puts a LOT of stress on a marriage. If there are already problems there, the economic problems just exacerbate everything. It colors everything.

I've been married since I was 21 and my husband was 23. We are now 34 and 36. We're lucky, we're very happy. But we don't take that for granted. Both people have to be pretty committed to staying together. Just one person NOT committed to working things out is a deal-breaker.

Again, the bad economy we've been experiencing certainly doesn't help and I think it does push somewhat weak marriages over the edge into divorce.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
123. We've have a 50 percent divorce rate (at least)
Assume that 1 out of every 2 couples you know will split.

It's not Bush's fault though. That's a little loony.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
124. You offer only anecdotal evidence of your assertions
Any links to hard evidence of a higher divorce rate than say, 1998?

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #124
143. I think the OP is asking but nobody seems to have stats
at their finger tips. It would be interesting to see if there is a correlation in an uptick in divorce rates and Shrubby's enthronement.

My pet theory, based on limited anecdotal evidence, is that 9/11 started a lot of people down the road of divorce. The marriages I know of started to strain or split later, but the infidelities started sometime shortly after 9/11. People were seeking more happiness? Life is short so do what you want? Dunno.

People have brought up economics, but also for those in the middle class there is the strain of employers exploiting employees to work longer hours. They can get away with it right now.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYC2099 Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
127. The weirdest stat I've read about divorce is....
is that the divorce rate is higher for 2nd marriages than 1st marriages. Go figure.


All the stats I read are all slightly different but they seem to be around :
1st Marriages : 50% end in divorce
2nd Marriages : 67% end in divorce
3rd Marriages : 74% end in divorce
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #127
144. One possible reason might be
once a person has divorced once (or twice), it's easier for them to do it again.

It's that way with just about everything; once a person has done something once, it's easier the second, third, etc., time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
130. Dunno. But this never-married is committed to remaining that way
Zero marriages also equals zero divorces.

And I get to keep all my stuff and all my money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trekbiker Donating Member (724 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
133. my relationship was a casualty of Bush directly...
wasnt a divorce, just a marriage that will NOT be happening. I forgave her for voting for bush the first time (hers is a strong republican family). but the second time??? her dumb ass head in the sand so deep?? I lost all respect. and the irony is that she'll be needing all the things the bush neocons are taking away...

our society is coming apart at the seams..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caligirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
135. 25th anniversary is tomorrow, 29 years since meeting. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
138. It's because people aren't chaste enough.
They just screw, and screw, and screw some more. Leave 'em alone in the shed for an hour, and wouldn'tcha know it, they're at it again. They're like little ol' spider monkeys.

Now, if everyone only looked like this:



Rampant sex wouldn't be a problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
140. It's been like this for several decades. Are you just now noticing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Nov 13th 2018, 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC