DO you think S.I.D.S. is real

[Mizmoon]

Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, I mean.

I just saw a public service announcment that claimed it's the leading cause of death in children under 3 months. I've never been convinced that it's really real though.

[babylonsister]

1. I had an older brother I never met

because he died of SIDS. So yeah, I think it's real.

[atommom]

2. I believe it's real, but there have been documented cases of parents

smothering their babies, and then reporting the deaths as SIDS. So apparent SIDS deaths get more scrutiny now than they used to.

[Horse with no Name]

3. Yes.

Unequivocally.
Do I also thing some are misdiagnosed?
Yes.
Unequivocally.

[stellanoir]

6. I agree

It's a real phenomenon but also qualifies as a "trash can diagnosis."

[Zuni]

4. I know someone who had a baby who died of SIDS

It is real.

[BigMcLargehuge]

5. Yes

we had a SIDS death in an early learning center where I worked.

[DoYouEverWonder]

110. We had one in Miami

at the Mailman Center for Child Development. The baby's mother was the Vice Principal and the baby had just started daycare at the center. It happened so fast, they had just put the baby down for a nap, that there wasn't anything anyone could do for the poor child.

[BigMcLargehuge]

114. the situation was nearly identical for us

she went down for a nap and stopped breathing a few minutes later. Very sad and scary day.

[seabeyond]

7. yes i do

i think it is a catch all though. i think there are different things that create it

[Redstone]

8. Why would you think it isn't real? If not, what do you think is going on?

I've never heard anyone say that before, so I'm curious.

Redstone

[Clark2008]

9. I was wondering this, myself.

I've never heard anyone claim it wasn't real.
I've heard of parents alleging their children died of it when it turns out they'd smothered them (covered courts for a newspaper for years) and I've known people who's babies actually DID die as a result of it.
It's very real.

[Mizmoon]

12. Murder or other misdiagnosis

When my kids were young I never heard of anyone who simply put the baby to sleep and came back to find him or her dead. Then there was this woman from the article below and I've been supicious ever since.
--------------------------------------
Woman charged with smothering 8 of her kids
Chart
District Attorney Lynne Abraham with an autopsy chart of the children
August 6, 1998
Web posted at: 8:39 a.m. EDT (1239 GMT)

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Between 1949 and 1968, Marie Noe had 10 children: seven girls and three boys. Two of the children lived just one month. One died after 13 days, another after 14 months.

Not one lived to see a second birthday.

In all except two of the deaths, Mrs. Noe said the babies had died while sleeping when she was home alone with them. Eventually the deaths were blamed on Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, also known as SIDS.

Thirty years after the final death, Mrs. Noe, 70, was arrested at her Philadelphia house Wednesday and charged with first-degree murder -- accused of smothering eight of her children to death with a pillow or another soft object.

All eight children were declared healthy at birth and were developing normally, District Attorney.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/06/infant.deaths.ap/

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. So, what are you proving by posting that article? How does that....

...disprove SIDS in any way?

All you have is a woman who killed her ten kids over a period of nineteen years. Meanwhile, SIDS was killing an average of 5,000 babies per year during that period of time.

[Mizmoon]

103. I wasn't trying to disprove it

I wanted to talk about it

[tblue37]

123. Notice, too, that since the "Back to Sleep"

campaign began, the incidence of SIDS in the US has been dramatically reduced--because babies put to sleep on their backs are less likely to die of SIDS. If it were not a real diagnosis, placing babies on their backs for sleep would not have that impact.

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/new/releases/sleep-tenthann.cfm?from=sids
In 1994, the NICHD formed a coalition of national organizations to launch the Back to Sleep campaign. Since the start of the NICHD-led campaign that year, the SIDS rates . . . have declined by about 50 percent. . . .

[wildeyed]

131. Also, people are much more careful about putting soft objects

into the crib with babies. Excessive blankets, stuffed animals or other soft objects can be a smothering risk for young babies.

[Pithlet]

74. Because you don't personally know anyone it's happened to

You question its existence?

[Mizmoon]

104. no, that would be silly n/t

[Pithlet]

120. Then why did you say it?

That seems to be the basis of your argument. That, and the case of the woman who was convicted of killing her babies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. That's odd--I'm 54 years old, and I've heard of SIDS deaths

since I was a kid, and I'm not talking about the Marie Noe case, either, but normal, loving parents with other children who simply found their baby dead one day.

I've heard firsthand accounts from parents who have lost a baby like this. The pain doesn't go away, not even after decades.

[shrike]

112. My wonderful aunt must be a murderer, then

She put her baby son to sleep, came back to check on him and he was dead.

[thinkingwoman]

147. my mother

was almost a SIDS death.

Born in 1942, she went down for a nap one day like normal and then for some reason my grandmother decided to check on her. She found my mother blue and not breathing. She picked up her up quickly and my mother gasped and started breathing again. There was never any other incident.

SIDS is real.

[Cuban_Liberal]

10. Yes, I believe it's very real.

While the causes may be poorly understood, the phenomenon itslef is well-documented in forensic medical literature.

[MollyStark]

11. So you think all those babies are alive somewhere? n/t

[Mizmoon]

13. no

[MollyStark]

15. Then what do you think?

I have known several people who lost a baby to SIDS. What are you implying?

[Mizmoon]

16. posted above

#12

[MollyStark]

24. Can you answer a question directly?

Are you saying all SIDS deaths are murder?

[Mizmoon]

105. Yes and No

respectively

[ariellyn]

14. My best friend's husband was in the bed with their baby

napping when it died. I really believe that he rolled over on the baby while asleep. I was at their house when he awoke and ran from the bedroom screaming. I actually picked the baby up to take her to the paramedics--an involuntary reflex. I noticed the three month old was lifeless and, it seemed like it was flattened as if it had been pressed on--not extremely but...it's hard to explain. I know it was not intentional if he smothered her, but I have to believe there are other cases like this.

[Mizmoon]

18. That's what I think too

it's not exactly this "put the baby to bed, baby doesn't wake up".

Something else happened, or something else was wrong with baby, or someone killed baby. It just seems too strange to me, this idea that the baby just "didn't wake up".

[_TJ_]

40. Do you think a crime has been commited in that case?

Or just a tragic accident?

[Mutley]

50. i wouldn't say that in every case a crime was committed...

but that maybe the baby was sick, or choked on something, or whatever. i just don't see how a baby can die for no reason at all... but again, as i've said below, i don't know. i've never had any experience with it.

[rodeodance]

98. then inform yourself--parents feel bad enough without being inaccurately

accused of contributing to their infants deaths.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. Sounds like you've adopted the fundie-fascist belief that everyone....

...is guilty until proven innocent.

I honestly hope that nobody reading your comments in this thread has ever had SIDS visit their family.

[_TJ_]

68. Please be fair

She's not saying a crime was commited in every case - she includes
other illnesses and misdiagnoses as possibilities.

For the record, I think SIDS is actually real though.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

84. I'm being as fair as I can possibly be on this subject. And if she's....

...not coming right out and stating that SIDS deaths are actually crimes, she is certainly implying it.

[Mizmoon]

96. rarely, but sometimes

I'd be more likely to think that it was a bad medical diagnosis than a criminal act.

[tblue37]

130. When babies are put to sleep on their backs, they are far less likely

to die of SIDS

http://www.nichd.nih.gov/new/releases/sleep-tenthann.cf...
In 1994, the NICHD formed a coalition of national organizations to launch the Back to Sleep campaign. Since the start of the NICHD-led campaign that year, the SIDS rates . . . have declined by about 50 percent. . . .

If SIDS were not real, then the Back to Sleep campaign would not save so many lives.

[left15]

150. I'm not a doctor....

But I think SIDS covers a variety of problems.

My understanding (from a recent parenting class) is that *some* infants have fairly fragile respiratory system, and that if you block or reduce airflow with bedding, stuffed animals, etc, and/or have pressure on the chest, such as a heavy blanket, or even the baby’s own weight, if they are lying on their stomach, they not get enough oxygen and die. This also tends to be coupled with sleep apnea. Most people when sleeping tend to have short periods when they are not breathing, or taking a regular breath, like 10 to 20 seconds, in some cases 30-50 seconds. If one of the pauses happens in an infant who has decreased air intake for the reasons listed above, it can results in SIDS. By the time most children are 1 year old, their lungs are strong enough, and have enough capacity to overcome these issues.

In cases of SIDS, there isn’t a cause of death than can be readily identified, such as trauma, or suffocation, so it is left as SIDS.

BTW if you are getting more than 8 hrs of sleep and still waking up tired, you may have sleep apnea.

[never_get_over_it]

21. How horrid

my heart aches for that man - my sister had a SIDS death in her husband's family - and since then that family has adopted about 10 kids some very disabled. These people love kids so there is no thought they were in any way responsible for their SIDS baby's death.

[ariellyn]

23. Yes it was horrid, he was never the same--they had another

baby, two actually. My best friend was ridiculously over protective of the second child, a girl who looked very much like the first.

[seabeyond]

35. they die that way, my oldest slept with us all the time

even now at nine, when i lay with him, it has to be an almost overing of him. when he was little little, we would sleep and he all nite worked to get his body under me. in sleep i would keep moving away. you dont know how many times, hubby would grab me, in sleep i was near off the bed. but his body just does/did that in sleep. what comforted him.

not to mention the back, side tummy issue while they sleep. oldest slept sides so was ok. youngest would only sleep on belly. was always afraid

dont remember which we are suppose to do, has changed so much

[loveable liberal]

113. you should never sleep with an infant.

every year babies are involuntarily smothered by a parent. They can be smothered by cats too. Thats what I call a trajedy. It makes Terri Schiavo situation look like a circus.

[progmom]

122. this is a controversial subject

You should never sleep with an infant if you're under the influence of any alcohol or drug or are extremely sleep deprived. But under normal conditions, it can be a safe, wonderful, convenient arrangement, especially if the infant is still waking up repeatedly through the night for breast feeding.

[seabeyond]

137. i would never give it up, the odds too far out there for

me to have given up that time the baby lays in the warmth of body, and comfort of love. nothing better.

parenting is scary, especially with so young. things have to be weighed against odds with so many things.

never would i give up having the babies in our bed

[girl gone mad]

132. My son never had a crib..

always slept in the bed with us. We had no problems.

In other countries, family beds are the norm, and I haven't seen any evidence that their SIDS rates are higher.

One good thing about having the baby in bed with you is that the baby tends to mimic your breathing patterns, which is healthy and may help prevent "crib death".

If you have a sleep disorder, or if you are a really large person, then a shared bed is probably not a good idea.

[politicat]

138. No evidence that a cat has ever smothered a baby. Old Wive's Tale.

Produce a case and we can start talking.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MUSTANG_2004]

145. Only a problem when alcohol and drugs are involved

Here's a link to an article by James J. McKenna, Ph.D. Professor of Biological Anthropology, Director, Mother-Baby Sleep Laboratory, University of Notre Dame:

http://www.nd.edu/%7Ejmckenn1/lab/faq.html

He says infant deaths due to smothering by a sleeping parent are from "extremely unsafe" conditions, such as "where adults are not aware that the infant was in the bed, or an adult sleeping partners who are drunk or desensitized by drugs, or indifferent to the presence of the baby. In these cases often the suffocation occurs while the parent and infant sleep on a sofa or couch together."

One of the primary benefits we found to co-sleeping was that we didn't lose all that sleep that everyone told us we would.
Having the child share the bed (combined with a mother who nurses them) makes for very little loss of sleep for either parent. Instead of having to fully wake-up for a middle-of-the-night feeding, the mother barely wakes up while the baby latches on, and the dad (me) doesn't wake up at all. And the baby, because the food is so near and quickly accessible, doesn't cry at all.

After parenting 2 children this way, there is zero doubt in my mind that it is the way nature intended.

[amazona]

17. it's absolutely real

And it is not something that only happens to bad parents or to parents who allow the cat to sit on the baby's face and suck out all its breath.

Come on, of course it is real. Who doesn't know or at least hasn't met a kind, decent person who has been affected by this?

Sometimes I feel like we live in the Middle Ages. We had a stupid D.A. in our parish prosecute a woman and get a conviction for manslaughter against her for the crime of having lost her child. Fortunately with the help of some good doctors from Oschner in another parish, the conviction was able to be reversed.

Can you imagine the horror of losing your baby and being told that you killed her?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Mizmoon]

19. I've never met anyone who had this happen to them

ever.

[iconoclastNYC]

20. Well man, that's prima facie evidence that this condtion doesn't exist!

What do all those credentialed doctors and all those researchers with thier peer-reviewed studies know.

You don't know anyone so it must be made up.

Every medical condition can be misdiagnosed but to say that SIDS is made up demonstrates the a disrespect of Science that is more understandable coming from the right-wing.

[Mizmoon]

22. I was responding to a question

I was asked, "Who doesn't know or at least hasn't met a kind, decent person who has been affected by this?"

The answer is, "Me. I have never met anyone affected by this."

[amazona]

30. OK

I understand why it might seem untoward if you have never met anyone affected by it. The theory I was hearing a few years back was that in years gone by, we didn't know that you could greatly reduce the odds of SIDS by ALWAYS putting the baby down to sleep on its back. There may be less cases now because new mothers and caretakers are taught to do this. I know when I worked as a babysitter back in the dark ages, we didn't know about this. I let the babies sleep however they wanted to curl up and never dreamed of rolling them on their backs. I'm just lucky nothing happened. I think maybe in a state of nature babies weren't meant to sleep on beds and pillows so their heads flop around and occasionally an accident occurs?

Maybe one day we will live in a world where no one knows anyone affected by this because it no longer occurs. That's what we're all hoping for!

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[iconoclastNYC]

31. Still you posted the question

Medical diagnoses don't just get made up out of thin air. Although there is some mystery around SIDS you should know that medicine is a science and therefore lots of research has gone into defining it.

Why would you think its not real?

[Mizmoon]

34. That's where we disagree

Medical diagnosis are often made up. The 20th century is full of made up stuff. Multiple personality disorder anyone? Focal infection theory, maybe? Need some thalidimide for your nausea? Want some medical treatment in Tuskegee? Eugenics? Dropsy? Vapors? Hysteria? What causes ulcers, acid or bacteria? Would you like the emotional relief of a lobotomy?

That's why I'm always supicious of medical stuff. Always.

[iconoclastNYC]

42. Meidca diagnosis are not made up.

And every patient should be supicious of medical stuff. If i had any condition I'd be doing tons of research on it. A friend of mine nearly died because his doctors coudln't figure out he had rocky mountain spotted fever. His mother did research and suggested they test for it and they saved his life.

But to speculate that SIDS is made up without having any basis to say that is wreckless.

Multiple personality disorder is not made up. People are misdiagnosed with it but that does not mean it is made up.

Tuskeegee -- what do immoral experiments have to do with 'made up' diagnoses? Same with Eugenics.

Bad drugs (thalidimide) are about greedy corporations and a FDA rigged to serve the interests of said corporations. Again nothing to do with SIDS.

What causes ulcers? Both acid and bacteria. Again nothing to do with SIDS.

Lobotomy? Do you think any doctor handled that so flippantly. And now we have chemical lobootomies.

Your point of view seems to be because medical science is improving that SIDS is made up.

I want your reason you think SIDS is fake. So talk to me about SIDS. Not about medical unrelated issues from the 1950.

Was AIDS made up before they zeroed in on the virus that caused it and could test for it? They dont know what causes SIDS but they know that many cases of SUDDEN infant death can not be explained and therefore it is grouped together as SIDS. It is real.

[_TJ_]

45. I thought MPD was no longer diagnosed? nt

[iconoclastNYC]

48. No, it's still around, it's just called something different now.

For reasons of stigma and precisios it is now called: "Disassociative personality disorder." Only the name changed. It's basically the same "Sybil" thing.

Now are you going to tell me why you think SIDS is made up? So far the only reason you have cited is that you dont know anyone who's lost a child from it.

[_TJ_]

51. Relax the head friend

I never said anything about sids!

[iconoclastNYC]

65. Ooops. I thought you were the other person.

;)

[_TJ_]

69. Happens to me all the time!

:hide:

[Mizmoon]

66. Why I have suspected SIDS is not real

1) because I never heard of children dying in their sleep when my kids were young. It seems like something that suddenly came up inthe 80s.

2) Because a woman who lived near me in upstate NY had supposedly lost 7 or 8 children to SIDS, was featured in medical journals for a long time, and then was proved to have killed all of them via suffocation.

3) because I think on the rare occassions when children do die in their sleep that they have some other disorder than a catch-all we call "SIDS"

4) I think that in some cases (how many I can't even guess, but a small number) someone hurt the baby (by accident or on purpose) and tried to pass it off as SIDS. Sometimes maybe a caretaker or sibling did it and the parents don't even know the truth. Human situations that happen more often than anyone thinks ...

That's what I had on my mind.

[_TJ_]

71. You make good points

All those things do happen to babies.

But if the experts are satisfied that there is a thing
called sids happening to as many as 5000 kids a year,
I'm willing to trust them. They know a hell of a lot
more about this type of thing than I do so I don't
feel I am in a position to criticise their opinion :)

If I had 7 years of medical school under my belt I
might give it a go :7

[Mizmoon]

78. I appreciate your willingness to have a civil conversation

about it. Thank you.

[BornLeft]

83. I believe the

first references to SIDS or cot death were around late 60's early 70's. Before that i think they just called it "Damn bad luck"

[ultraist]

116. Yes, they called it crib death

Sudden infant death is not fully explained and it is somewhat of a catch all diagnosis, just as ADD is. There are situations that can be confused with SIDS, such as infant homocide.

But, it IS real. I suggest to the OP to broaden their info on this to gain a more objective perspective. Relying heavily on andectotal evidence (a news article about child abuse and personal experience of not knowing any SIDS parents) does not make for a valid opinion.

[wildeyed]

140. My mom knew a family who lost a baby to SIDS

when I was in preschool, which was early 70's. So the diagnosis did exist then.

The parents put the baby down for a nap in a public place, and when they checked later, the baby was dead. No one rolled over on the baby. No one hurt it. They were at a public flea market when it happened, I am sure someone would have noticed if they were busy smothering their baby. My parents talk about it to this day because they had babysat for the baby the day before he died.

No one knows exactly what causes SIDS, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We don't really understand auto-immune diseases, either, but they exist. And, as another poster pointed out, the Back to Sleep campaign has done a great job at reducing SIDS related deaths by encouraging parents to place babies on their backs to sleep.

I am not exactly sure what you are getting at in your posts, but it would be unimaginable cruel to accuse people who have lost a baby to SIDS of hurting their babies without some kind of definite proof.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. So, out of the roughly 5,000 cases of SIDS every year in the US....

...how many parents do you believe should have been prosecuted for the death of their child?

IMHO, I think you've gone way past "suspicious" to the point where you appear to believe that every SIDS case is one of a parent or someone else killing these babies.

[Mizmoon]

72. "suspicious" was probably not the best word

but I'm only trying to have a discussion about something I am curious about. But I don't think that's really possible around here without people getting all haughty and offended and assuming that I'm out to DO something to someone.

[_TJ_]

73. I'm with ya Mizmoon

It's a good debate! You really know how to fight your corner.

[Pithlet]

77. I'm sorry

But I think the argument that you personally have never known anyone that it has happened to is a pretty weak one. I think that is the number one reason why people are jumping on you, here. A secondary argument seems to be that doctors make things up. While I do believe that they may use SIDS as a catchall diagnosis when they don't know what has happened, how do you explain the fact that SIDS deaths have decreased dramatically after parents started placing their infants on their backs? And, your contention SIDS didn't exist before the 80s is ridiculous, too. Talk about making things up! Babies have been mysteriously dying in their cribs since humans have been on this planet. just because it wasn't clinically diagnosed doesn't mean it never happened. There have been other, less clinical names for it in the past, like "crib death".

[Media_Lies_Daily]

87. Do you have any children of your own? Have you gone to sleep at....

...night and jumped up to check your baby at least a couple of times a night?

If I'm not mistaken, you admitted that you didn't know anyone that had experienced a child dying of SIDS. You continue to post remarks that would deeply hurt any parent that had lost a child that way.

No, you're mistaking "haughty" for impatience toward people that don't do their homework before posting comments like you have today.

[Mizmoon]

97. I had a premature baby

Actually I had him sleep with me, which has its own risks.

I am sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings but I do think you're haughty and overreacting.

[Midlodemocrat]

151. Unfortunately, I know two people who had

SIDS deaths in their families.

One is a teacher at my daughter's school and the other is my friend across the street. Her daughter, named the same as my eldest, died at 9 weeks of age in the crib. There is no way that mom contributed to her death in any form. She is the salt of the earth.

The teacher had left her child in the care of a day care provider, so I am not sure about the circumstances, but the grief sure was real.

[_TJ_]

41. The DA should lose his job for doing something like that nt

[Fleshdancer]

25. keep in mind what the human brain is accomplishing at that age

I'm dusting off some info I learned many moons ago in one of my psychology class, but one of the theories regarding SIDS is that sometimes the "system" (brain) crashes when it's in the process of creating so many new neural pathways. The prof. used the analogy of a hard drive crashing. At this stage in life, babies don't dream. When they sleep, they're going through pretty intense brain activity and this theory concludes that a small percentage of babies experience problems with it.

[Mizmoon]

27. Very interesting

Now this is the most interesting response of all. I'm going to look around for more info about this.

Thanks.

[Fleshdancer]

29. I was fascinated when I first learned about this too

and in my non-medical professional experience, it makes sense. ;) I read a few years ago that the SIDS death rate didn't change all that much after the big push to lay babies on their backs instead of their stomachs (which is still a well-known SIDS theory). Also, from what I understand (and I should research this to make sure I have my info correct) but the SIDS rates among industrial nations are somewhat similar which leads me to speculate whether this truly is a physical phenomenon rather than accidental (smothering) or sinister in nature.

[kath]

118. Actually, the SIDS death rate decreased significantly as a result of the

"Back to Sleep" campaign.

I hate threads like this where misinformed people spout off about things they know little to nothing about.

[Orangepeel]

144. what if there were fewer accidental smothering misdisagnosed as sids

after the "back to sleep" campaign? That would still be a very good thing, of course, and would certainly not imply that sids doesn't exist. But it would allow for theories about the cause that didn't have anything to do with sleeping position.

[Bettie]

26. Its real

SIDS is real. I know many families who have been affected by this, largely due to my own experience in losing a child (an intrapartum death).

Actually, there is some research that links it to Stillbirth, the same factors that cause a baby to die suddenly in utero may be related to SIDS.

Losing a child is a life-altering tragedy. Yes, there are parents who kill their own children, but they are the exception, not the rule.

SIDS can probably be misdiagnosed, sometimes there is an undetected defect of some kind, but sometimes, babies die for no reason that anyone can explain. That is the sad fact that many parents live with every day of their lives.

[_TJ_]

28. What do you think is causing the deaths? nt

[Mizmoon]

32. posted in #12

muder or baby had another medical problem that went undiagnosed.

Someone else posted something interesting about baby's brain development on post 25. I'm going to look at that idea more closely.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mizmoon]

37. "Ignorance must be so much fun"

I wouldn't know. I do know that some people can have a discussion without name calling, while others cannot.

[Bridget Burke]

47. If my statement was so heinous, why are you repeating it?

You have pretty much accused all parents of SIDS children of murder, but that's OK.

[_TJ_]

53. That is not fair

She only listed murder as one possibility - along with misdiagnosis
or other illnesses.

[Mizmoon]

60. Because when people go over the line

they often need to hear what they said repeated back to them to get it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

82. I know that some people make statements without doing any research....

...to back up their comments. You appear to fall into that category.

I know other posters that continue to make the same comments despite the facts, figures, and details presented by others that disprove those comments. You appear to fall into that category, too.

What's your game, Mizmoon?

[Mizmoon]

94. I wasn't writing an encyclopedia entry

I was looking to talk about SIDS and what people thought of it.

[_TJ_]

39. Hey there's no need for that!

Her question was posted in good faith. There's no need to rip
her a new one!

[_TJ_]

36. There was a good case in England recently

A woman had 3 infants die and went to jail for a while on
multiple-murder charges.

An expert said it was about 30,000,000 to 1 that the deaths
were accidental. I don't think there was any other evidence.

They released her after a while though and aquitted her. Other
experts said the true odds were probably as low as 64-1 for
families with certain genes in the parents.

Don't forget, some women have lots of miscarraiges and some
have none. The one with lots aren't all throwing themselves
down the stairs - biology *can* cause awful situations like
this! :(

[SaveElmer]

38. It's real...my nieced died from it

She was put down to sleep one night, my brother woke up the next morning to find her dead....believe me...it is real!!!

[Mizmoon]

95. That's so awful

I'm sorry for your loss. Did the doctors say there were other health issues - apnea, that sort of thing? Or did they just say "The cause was SIDS".

[SaveElmer]

109. They were sure it was SIDS

She had had a checkup the day before and all was well!

[Midlodemocrat]

43. Yes,

Actually, I believe the rate of SIDS went down markedly when the APA decided on its 'back to sleep' campaign. I will try to find the article and post it.

[Mizmoon]

106. When my kids were young, they HAD to be on the belly

in case they spit up. I know you're supposed to put them on their backs now, but it gives me the willies to see it. It feels dangerous to me.

[Midlodemocrat]

146. Oh, I know just what you mean.

My eldest slept on her stomach in case she spit up. Then the decision came down from 'on high' that they should sleep on their sides, or backs. Neither of my two younger children slept as well, because even though they were swaddled early on, they still startled themselves awake.

[Arkana]

44. Absolutely yes

My little brother Alex died at 3 months of SIDS. I was 4.

[Mizmoon]

107. I'm so sorry, that's awful

:( Was that during or before the 80s? Did they specifically call it "SIDS"?

[Arkana]

148. 1989, and yes, they called it Sudden Infant Death Syndrome

[Mutley]

46. i don't know...

i've never had an experience with it, however, i don't really understand how a baby can die for no reason at all. but, i'm not a doctor so...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. It's much too real for a lot of families every year. Here is some...

...information that you may want to be aware of:

General SIDS Statistics
<http://www.sidsfamilies.com/info/statistics.shtml>

[Mizmoon]

102. High rates in minorities

especially Native Americans, in other words, people who tend to get lesser quality medical care. I wonder if their babies' deaths are often just lumped under the heading of "SIDS" regardless of the real cause (i.e. an undiagnosed medical problem).

edit for spelling

[Ripley]

52. I watched my friend break down next to that tiny coffin.

He and his wife lost their first child to SIDs and that was the worst funeral I have ever been to.

I don't understand why you think doctors would make up something to tell them if they thought the baby had actually been murdered. Maybe it is a "catch-all" because sometimes doctors don't have all the answers.

[Bouncy Ball]

54. Please do some reading up on this subject.

Our daughter very nearly died of SIDS. She had RSV, a respiratory problem, and the doctors at the Army hospital we were taking her to didn't feel a sleep monitor was necessary and I had to perform CPR on her one horrific night. She was blue. She also had pneumonia twice at a very young age. She's had respiratory problem since birth.

After that, I slept on the floor of her nursery for a couple of months. I had to be near her and listen to her breathing. I didn't get any sleep at all. I was terrified she'd stop breathing again. If it weren't for my husband's calm demeanor that night (he was calmly telling me what to do for infant CPR since I was already the one holding her), I shudder to think.

[bigwillq]

57. WOW, Bouncy

That's too scary to even think about. How is she doing today?:hug:

[Bouncy Ball]

59. Oh she's a rough and tumble 10 year old

with asthma and bad respiratory allergies. On five meds a day to keep it under control and she still sneezes in her sleep repeatedly every night and gets a sinus infection twice a year.

But hey, she's healthy besides that and happy. Thanks for asking!

[bigwillq]

62. I wish her a bright future!

:)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. The older of my two brothers

nearly died of a sudden-onset respiratory infection when he was two months old.

My mom got up to check on him, and he was scratching at the bedding and turning blue. Without thinking, she grabbed him by the heels, held him upside down and gave him a whack across the back. A big glob of mucus shot out.

Then my parents took him to the emergency room. He was admitted to the hospital and spent some amount of time on oxygen.

If my mom hadn't checked on him when she did, he would have been another "crib death" statistic.

[Mizmoon]

101. My God - that's so lucky she went in

That's why we Moms can hardly even go out to the movies after the baby is born. What if something like that happens!

[Mizmoon]

61. I'm glad she's okay, but doesn't that make her illness

"RSV" and not "SIDS"? That's what I'm trying to get at here... it's not an illness called "SIDS" that did it. Or am I missing something.

[Bridget Burke]

64. Yes, you are missing something.

Some cases of SIDS may well have causes that will be understood better with more study. SIDS is the result, not the cause.

Saying there is no such thing will not lead to fewer dead babies.

[Bouncy Ball]

67. What Bridget said.

Had I not checked on our daugther in time, had I not known infant CPR (really, had my husband not known), then the official cause of her death would have been termed "SIDS." Our pediatrician told us that when we took her in. So did the doctors on duty in the ER when we rushed her there after I got her breathing again.

[Mizmoon]

70. but it was said that SIDS "is the leading cause of death in infants"

That doesn't sound like a result to me - sounds like a cause.

[ultraist]

126. Apparently, you didn't read the definitions that were posted

The exact causes of SIDS are UNKNOWN. If a baby dies and they are unable to identify the specific medical causes, it's labeled SIDS.

[PassingFair]

136. Aww, sorry BB, my daughter went through a bout of RSV

at 1-1/2. She had bi-lateral pneumonia and was in the hospital for 6 days on IV's. It was the worst 4 days of my life (the last two, she was getting better...).
Now, every time she gets a cold, her asthma flares up, and I have to watch her closely for pneumonia. She doesn't need medication, except for her inhaler when she has an acute attack.
That RSV was a lung killer!

[noonwitch]

56. Yes, but I think they will find out a specific cause for it at some point

I have a coworker who has been in children's services too long, as we get an occasional case in which a child has died of SIDS. Her theory is that some kids just know what kind of hellish life they are in for and just give up before it gets bad. That is so wrong, but it should be noted that the cases we get are families that have problems above and beyond just that one child's death, and that long-term workers can get really cynical about human nature.

I think that science will find out that there's some common cause in the cases, something that hasn't been detected previously. Maybe a virus or a lung condition, or exposure to something in the environment.

[LeftyMom]

75. I think there are a lot of causes for it

but it's absolutely real. Even though I don't personally know anyone who lost a baby that way I don't doubt that.

[demokatgurrl]

76. That's the tricky part about "syndromes"-

they are really a collection of symptoms, which may or may not even seem related, and no one can find a real reason for them but the symptoms are real. Remember those viral syndromes- you don't even hear about them any more- like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? and even PMS- not a real disease, just maninfestations of something that doctors can't identify.

So is it real? Well it HAPPENS, so I guess it's real on one level, but there may be so many different causes that it doesn't really make sense to call it one thing.

[Bridget Burke]

81. Congratulations! Someone who knows the definition of "Syndrome"

It is, indeed a description of a set of symptoms.

Further study often finds specific etiologies.

[Mizmoon]

93. Yes, I see what you mean

very interesting

[ScreamingMeemie]

79. A cousin of mine died from S.I.D.S. in 1964. Of course it's real.

To think that millions of people are smothering their kids, or that somehow millions of doctors are misdiagnosing is ridiculous. I also cannot think that there isn't a DUer who has lost a child in this manner...who just may find this thread revolting. :hi:

[Pithlet]

80. I know of a DUer who lost their baby to SIDS

I can't even think about how horrible such a loss woud be :(

[Mizmoon]

99. Did they call it "SIDS" back then?

or some other name?

[ScreamingMeemie]

108. They called it "crib death"

:hi:

[kath]

119. Or in the UK, "cot death"

[brook]

135. "Back then"...

specifically, 1942 - they called it SIDS. It's not a 'new-fangled' thing. My beautiful infant cousin died during her afternoon nap. Her father, my Godfather, was in the South Pacific with the USMC. He never saw his daughter... his marriage died as well.

[ScreamingMeemie]

143. They called it crib death in the 60's. My aunt did not hear it termed

S.I.D.S. until the seventies. :hi:

[alarimer]

86. I think that when they can't figure out what happened

they (doctors) call it SIDS. Sort of a catch-all diagnosis.

[Mizmoon]

100. me too

I probably shouldn't have used the phrase "is it real", because I think it's way more likely to be a nomenclature issue than a criminal issue. I kinda pissed a lot of folks right off! :P

[tammywammy]

88. Yes, I think it's real

And no, I don't know anyone who's died from SIDS or had a child die from SIDS.

I do think it's a catchall, but I don't think there are thousands of people each year suffocating their babies to death.

[Mizmoon]

91. That's true

not thousands. I agree that most of them are illnesses.

[Susang]

111. Perhaps

You're not understanding how the term *syndrome* applies here? Syndrome, in medical terms, does not mean disease. It means a collection of symptoms or "a set of signs or a series of events occurring together that often point to a single disease or condition as the cause". http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?query=syndrome&action=Search+OMD

That basically means that the characteristics of SIDS point to a disease or condition that they haven't been able to identify yet. SIDS is just the catch-all name they've given to this collection of characteristics, to make it easier for doctors to identify and study.

Also, before the acronym SIDS was coined, it was commonly called "Crib Death" and happened with even more frequency, as children were usually placed on their stomachs to sleep in their crib instead of on their backs. My grandmother lost two babies to crib death, so I can assure you that this is not a new thing.

[ultraist]

117. excellent point!

SIDS diagnosis is not comparable to something like a MPD diagnosis which requires a certain number of specific symptoms.

It is a "syndrome." It has not been fully explained and until they are able to identify specific medical reasons for SIDS, it will remain a syndrome. They have identified numerous risk factors which has reduced the number of SIDS cases.

http://www.sids.org/ndefinition.htm
SIDS is the sudden death of an infant under one year of age which remains unexplained after a thorough case investigation, including performance of a complete autopsy, examination of the death scene, and review of the clinical history. (Willinger et al, 1991).

In a typical situation parents check on their supposedly sleeping infant to find him or her dead. This is the worse tragedy parents can face, a tragedy which leaves them with a sadness and a feeling of vulnerability that lasts throughout their lives. Since medicine can not tell them why their baby died, they blame themselves and often other innocent people. Their lives and those around them are changed forever.

We also know that there are variables that are not the cause of death but may contribute to the cause. For example, infants who are placed on their stomachs to sleep are at greater risk of death than those placed on their backs. However, the majority of babies who sleep on their stomachs do not die, and many infants die who are on their backs. Among other contributing variables are fetal exposure to drugs and tobacco, low birth weight, and poor prenatal care. The educational efforts of the American SIDS Institute and others have resulted in a 52% reduction of SIDS deaths from 1990 to 2000 (the last year for which data are available). We believe that the remaining SIDS deaths (approximately 2,500 per year in the United States alone) can only be eliminated through additional research.

Undoubtedly there are several underlying causes for sudden (and currently unexplained) infant deaths. However, we now know that most (60% - 70%) of the deaths are related to a subtle chronic abnormality, which occurs before birth. At this time we do not know the specific pattern or nature of this chronic abnormality. Therefore, our clinical efforts have been aimed at identifying high-risk infants, and seeking to reduce the death of the infants, through the use of home monitors and parent education.

[unhappycamper]

90. There is a young adult version of SIDS called SADS

Sudden Arrhythmia Death Syndrome is a disorder of the electrical system of the heart that can lead to the death of apparently healthy people without any warning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/medical_notes/424813.stm

My 18 year old grandson passed away last year from this.

[Mizmoon]

92. I'm sorry to hear that

I had no idea this could happen to adults. You learn something new everyday.

[Lindacooks]

115. It's real. My cousin's baby girl died of it.

And one cause is maternal smoking (she is a smoker):

Smoking during pregnancy triples the risk of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome).


Maternal smoking is responsible for 35% of all SIDS deaths in the US, and 66% of SIDS deaths among the infants of women who smoked during their pregnancy. In all, an estimated 1900 SIDS deaths are caused by maternal smoking in the US each year.

Tobacco-Free Youth Reporter, Fall 1995, p. 16

http://www.tobaccoprogram.org/tobaccorefguide/ch5/ch5p41.htm

[Xithras]

121. I lost a cousin to it

She was a perfectly healthy two month old baby when my aunt put her to sleep in her crib one afternoon. When my aunt checked on her two hours later (the baby usually woke up every two hours) she was dead and cold.

I don't know where SIDS theory is now, but at the time it was that the neural circuits responsible for respiration aren't fully developed at that age. When breathing gets interrupted in some kids (as in, the head rolls and the mouth and nose are momentarily stopped), the reflex isn't there that makes most of us thrash and take another. Even though the airway may immediately become unblocked again, the brain doesn't know how to restart the lungs and the child dies.

Whatever causes it, one thing is indisputable. Since the American Academy of Pediatrics started the "Babies on their backs" campaign in 1992, SIDS rates have dropped by almost half. If SIDS deaths were really caused by external factors, those number should have remained unchanged.

[theboss]

128. A campaign to redeuce SIDS wouldn't work if it were fake

It has worked dramatically.

That would be like if everyone in the country stopped smoking and lung cancer rates fell 50 percent. Could you deny a link?

[theboss]

124. It's real and is down

And babies now have flat heads because of it. I'm serious.

The same “Back to Sleep” campaign that has dramatically decreased the rate of SIDS has also resulted in an increasing number of babies with flat skull areas, usually on one side of the back of the head. The benefits of sleeping on the back far outweigh the often-preventable short-term cosmetic issues. The AAP has issued July 2003 recommendations for preventing these flat areas (plagiocephaly or positional skull deformities) while still sleeping on the back. The ideas are simple. First, try to decrease the amount of time that babies spend on their backs or leaning on the backs of their heads when they are awake. Building the habit of “Tummy Time” is one great way to do this. Second, try to alternate which side of the head is down when babies sleep. This may often be accomplished by changing which way a babies would look to see the door when they sleep. If a change in skull shape occurs, this will usually improve on its own, or with minor treatment, once the baby is sitting on his own through much of the day and beyond the highest risk period for SIDS.

http://www.drgreene.com/21_1633.html

[progmom]

125. Are you a parent?

You write:
3) because I think on the rare occassions when children do die in their sleep that they have some other disorder than a catch-all we call "SIDS"

Rare occasion?

I did a lot of research on SIDS when my son was an infant. I'm just wondering whether you have done similar reading, or whether this was posted as something of a casual question.

[Lisabtrucking]

127. I don't, and never have believed in CID's.

I think when children are that young, they have a hard time moving their heads, and suffocate themselves. It is so hard to prove exactly what this dilemma is because these children die unexpectedly. I don't think they have done enough research on the matter either. I also think that some of these death can be a hidden crime. Just M.O.OPinion

[Generic Guy]

129. Sadly yes it is real.

Having not only worked in the medical feild but growing up around it I can vouch that it does happen. In most cases it was due to parents just not being educated. What needs to happen is mandatory CPR training classes for all new parents. They do it for special needs children so I see no reason why they can't do it for everyone.

[kskiska]

133. There's a very good book on this subject

The Death of Innocents, by Richard Firstman and Jamie Talan

Summary:

Unraveling a twenty-five-year tale of multiple murder and medical deception, The Death of Innocents is a work of first-rate journalism told with the compelling narrative drive of a mystery novel. More than just a true-crime story, it is the stunning expose of spurious science that sent medical researchers in the wrong direction--and nearly allowed a murderer to go unpunished.

On July 28, 1971, a two-and-a-half-month-old baby named Noah Hoyt died in his trailer home in a rural hamlet of upstate New York. He was the fifth child of Waneta and Tim Hoyt to die suddenly in the space of seven years. People certainly talked, but Waneta spoke vaguely of "crib death," and over time the talk faded.

Nearly two decades later a district attorney in Syracuse, New York, was alerted to a landmark paper in the literature on Sudden Infant Death Syndrome--SIDS--that had been published in a prestigious medical journal back in 1972. Written by a prominent researcher at a Syracuse medical center, the article described a family in which five children had died suddenly without explanation. The D.A. was convinced that something about this account was very wrong. An intensive quest by a team of investigators came to a climax in the spring of 1995, in a dramatic multiple-murder trial that made headlines nationwide.

But this book is not only a vivid account of infanticide revealed; it is also a riveting medical detective story. That journal article had legitimized the deaths of the last two babies by theorizing a cause for the mystery of SIDS, suggesting it could be predicted and prevented, and fostering the presumption that SIDS runs in families. More than two decades of multimillion-dollar studies have failed to confirm any of these widely accepted premises. How all this happened--could have happened--is a compelling story of high-stakes medical research in action. And the enigma of familial SIDS has given rise to a special and terrible irony. There is today a maxim in forensic pathology: One unexplained infant death in a family is SIDS. Two is very suspicious. Three is homicide.

[nonconformist]

134. Yes, I do. However...

I do believe that a lot of cases that are diagnosed as SIDS are explainable - or were in the past. This is supported by the fact that encouraging parents to lay their babies to sleep on their backs and more public awareness in keeping pillows/heavy blankets/stuffed animals out of the crib has helped reduce the statistics. So clearly, some children were suffocating yet were considered SIDS deaths in the past.

As well, perhaps in the future medicine will discover a rare genetic or chromosomal disorder that causes SIDS. We are still a rather primitive species and there is much we have to learn.

But yes, I do believe that sometimes very young infants just die and there is no explainable reason why.

[laylah]

142. When my youngest was a baby

in 1984, 60 Minutes did a story on SIDS and MMR shots. Studies had found many babies who had died from SIDS had had their MMR shots within the previous few days.

At the time, Wyeth labs and Lily labs were the only makers of the MMR vaccine. One of them had the half-cell, which had the most dangerous potential for an adverse reaction as opposed to the other that had the full cell syrum. For reasons I cannot remember, but it was definitely connected to government funding (Raygun years), the less safer of the two was given funding over the safer one. My daughter didn't get the shots until she started school, and then it was against my better judgment!

Jenn

[Ilsa]

149. One reason there may be an increase in the last few decades

is that prematurity is a risk factor for SIDS. Since neonatal care has very much improved over the last thirty years, it is possible that preemies which might have died at birth or while in hospital before, are now being taken home by their mothers and dying at home if sleep apnea hasn't been diagnosed. Some babies get sent home with apnea monitors.

There is some research that supports the idea that the immature brain and respiratory centers are not blowing off CO2 properly, and that stomach-sleeping position, prematurity, second-hand smoke, medications, etc, are factors which increase risk for the respiratory system either slowing down during sleep. Babies that are breastfed, last time I checked, have a much lower risk for SIDS. It is possible that a yet unidentified component of breastmilk helps feed the brain to help those respiratory centers mature faster. I read this some time ago, maybe within the last year. I don't know if I bookmarked the research.

Some of these factors (prematurity, etc) are also related to prenatal care, (no prenatal care might increase risk for prematurity, therefore increase risk for SIDS.)