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So, should I even bother giving my doctor and family my living will?

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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:19 AM
Original message
So, should I even bother giving my doctor and family my living will?
Considering that, if my family disagrees among themselves over the provisions of my living will or with my husband if I'm married (I'm currently single), and the state and/or federal government now feels free to intervene in my private, personal family situation and ignore my wishes if the politicians decide they don't like or agree with them, what's the point?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. You should. But it's not a 100% guarantee.
You'd do well to appoint durable power of attorney to someone you trust to make medical decisions for you in the event you are incapacitated.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I have done that; I have both a living will
and a durable power of attorney. But what if my family disagrees among themselves over it? What frightens me is that the government now feels free to intervene in a private, personal family matter where they have NO BUSINESS AT ALL, and wingnuts are also coming out against living wills, believing they should be challenged.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. You should be frightened.
The only consolation is that so many Americans are opposed to this action.
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liberal43110 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Are people coming out against living wills,
believing they should be challenged, in cases other than the Schiavo case?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Yes - there were links to a news story about such a case
posted in BD in the last few days.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, you should
if Terri had had a written, notarized Power of Attorney for Health Care, this would've ended years ago.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Unless they change the laws, a good living will should do you fine
If Terri had a living will I dont think this would have happened, its easy to argue the "err on the side of life argument" when they can pretend Michael is lying about her wishes.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Actually, we don't really "know" what her true
wishes are, all we have to go on is what Michael, his family and her family have to say about it.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Which is sufficient to render a legal determination.
And you could say the same thing about a living will if you want to - Was she pressured to sign it? Did she understand the ramifications? Did she mean for it to include THIS instance?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. We have solid evidence as to what her true wishes were.
Edited on Sat Mar-26-05 11:33 AM by K-W
And there is still no credible reason to doubt that testimony.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. hearsay is really "thin" when pulling the plug is involved
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Actually, no, it wasnt thin, it met the burden of proof.
But I guess its easier for you to believe in in a conspiricy.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Alan Dershowicz and other constitutional scholars consider
hearsay "thin" at best and not meeting the standard of pulling the plug. I will go along with them. Conspiracy??? I guess its easier for you NOT to accept the recommendations of swallowing and other tests by the impartial and independent guardian that still have not been ordered by Judge Greer.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Alan Derschowitz is entitled to an opinion-like when he said torture is OK
But that doesn't make it so.

And yes, obviously there is a grand conspiracy that includes a small army of neurologists, the judge, the 11th circuit court and the entire supreme court.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. This case recieved plenty of judicial scrutiny.
And this isnt a constitutional issue, so Im not sure what you are talking about. Is Alan Dershowicz an expert in Florida family and medical law? Because it is Florida law, not the constitution that establishes the burden of proof in this case.

I will trust the many judges who have reviewed this case and upheld it over a famous lawyer.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. how many courts have rejected hearing the case because they
consider it not their jurisdiction? I think this case has received no judicial (as in "overseeing") scrutiny by other judges. This judge won an election to get his position and we all know how many people really review judges when they are voting. I would love to hear a retired inpartial Florida probate judge(s) review this case. Of course this will happen about as much as MDs discussing on TV how their fellow MDs commit malpractice and naming names. This judge had a guardian ad litem forced down his throat by Jeb Bush around 2003 and then this judge, what, ignored(?) the guardian's recs (swallowing, etc., tests) in that guardian's report and then ordering the plug pulled.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Once more: this testimony was not hearsay. It is one of many
exceptions to the hearsay rule.

Exceptions include:

a) a statement by the opposing party in the lawsuit which is inconsistent with what he/she has said in court
b) business entries made in the regular course of business, when a qualified witness can identify the records and tell how they were kept
c) official government records which can be shown to be properly kept
d) a writing about an event made close to the time it occurred, which may be used during trial to refresh a witness's memory about the event
e) a "learned treatise" (historical works, scientific books, published art works, maps and charts)
f) judgments in other cases
g) a spontaneous excited or startled utterance
h) contemporaneous statement which explains the meaning of conduct if the conduct was ambiguous
i) a statement which explains a person's state of mind at the time of an event
j) a statement which explains a person's future intentions
k) prior testimony under oath
l) a declaration by the opposing party in the lawsuit which was contrary to his/her best interest if the party is not available at trial
m) a dying declaration by a person believing he/she is dying
n) a statement made about one's mental set, feeling, pain or health, if the person is not available-most often applied if the declarant is dead
o) a statement about one's own will
p) other exceptions based on a judge's discretion that the hearsay testimony has surrounding circumstances indicating that it must be reliable.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Don't forget, there is a living will being challenged at present.
And I have no doubt that the FEED TERRI nuts would have challenged a living will too.

In theory ther living will should hold up in the courts - but just as Michael Schiavo has held up in the courts, the challenges can take a toll.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. What living will is being challenged
right now? Is this shit happening already?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. There were 2 links here to the news story in the past couple of days
I'll try to find them and post the links.

In addition, see the "citizen action alert" that quotes the chief counsel of Concerned Women for America:

"Even if we knew that's what Terri wanted," she said, "Florida law makes aiding and abetting a suicide a felony, and there's no black-robed exemption."

Link: http://family.org/cforum/extras/a0035935.cfm
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Her parents have said they would have opposed
a written living will. (They've even said they would not let her go if she had to have all 4 limbs amputated and needed heart surgery) In cases where that happens the case usually goes to court. Until then, every measure must be taken to keep the patient alive. It's harder to stop a treatment once it's been started than not to start it at all.

And you HAVE to check your state laws about what EMTs are legally required to do. Some states do not allow them to recognize living wills or DNR orders (SC is one of them). They MUST use every method to revive a person.

Our hospice here has and gives their patients the numbers for private ambulance services that aren't constrained by the law due to not employing EMTs.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. As to your first paragraph, the guardian's report clearly indicates
the parents retracted this a few years ago, never meant this, etc.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. So on which occassion were they lying?
I'd like to see a court case in which a murder suspect says "Oh, when I said I would kill her the day before she was murdered? Well I retract that."
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Send it to your Congressman, Senators, and state legislators.
Edited on Sat Mar-26-05 11:27 AM by TahitiNut
Demand that they read it into the Congressional Record and the record of the state legislature. Your local hospital(s) should accept it as well.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. I think I just may do that,
considering my own congressman is a mega-repuke who probably wouldn't think twice about intervening in my own personal situation.
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. If TS had written anything down, and signed it in front of a notary
this whole fiasco wouldn't be happening. Written living wills are executed hundreds of times every week w/o any fanfare.

I think the answer to your question is yes.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. I disagree. A living will can be challenged - one is being challenged
Edited on Sat Mar-26-05 11:58 AM by mondo joe
right now.

Based on the quacks lying about Terri's medical condition, and the slander suggesting Terri was beaten, how unlikely is it that they couldn't say "He pressured her into signing it" or "She's not in PVS so it doesn't count."
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. I understand that, but my point
is that since Congress has intervened in what should have been a private, personal family matter, and since the wingnuts don't like living wills in the first place, what's to stop them now from challenging the provisions of a living will?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. There is nothing to prevent them from challenging your living will.
Anything can be challenged.

Consider how often wills are challenged.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
8. Don't forget 15 years of ignoring the physicians.
All of those doctors saw flatline brain activity readings, but the Schindlers 'wanted to believe' that Terri was still aware... and now talking?

I think we're all screwed.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
17. health care power of attorney form should be used instead of
living will per the probate and other attorneys I heard.They said download the forms from your county or city social agencies if you don't want to go to an attorney. That form will work better than a living will.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
20. Yes
You need to give originals (not copies) of your living will & durable power of attorney to your doctor and whom ever you chose as your durable power of attorney. And keep a set of originals in a safe place in your house.
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_TJ_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
23. Go for it !
At least your voice would be clearly heard if the worst
ever happened.
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Protagoras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-26-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
34. If you have assets that you'll be leaving behind....
Be sure to specify that anyone who contests your living will is AUTOMATICALLY excluded...with all the procedes going to some nice place like Planned Parenthood :D

Amazingly enough...a lot of familys find a feduciary incentive to leave last wishes in tact if they stand to lose by challenging them.

guess that's more sad than amazing as I reflect on it.
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