Reality check: The Schindlers' are not suffering the worst tragedy ever.

[BurtWorm]

The tragedy they are allegedly suffering today doesn't even match the one they suffered when their daughter had her catastrophic heart stoppage 15 years ago. I feel sorry for them for the tragedy they suffered then. I personally think they haven't allowed themselves to grapple with it. But my sympathy for their current tragedy doesn't reach the same depth.

Does that make me cold hearted? So be it.

[Karenina]

1. The real tragedy is the

HAVOC being wreaked on the RULE OF LAW, Judiciary, the "sanctity of marriage," other families, at the hospice or dealing with similar issues, America's already severely tarnished image, ALL over the issue of PRIVACY. Things that make ya go hmmm... :freak: :freak: :freak:

[BurtWorm]

2. Amen!

A-men!

[FreedomAngel82]

3. I agree

I used to feel a little sorry for them being used by the GOP but they could've easily said "no" to them and told them to "butt out" of a personal matter. Then I started reading more about them and how they were treating Schavio with money and thinking he would split it etc and how they would deny her wishes even if they knew she wanted to go on. So no longer feel sorry for them.

[TahitiNut]

6. "Might Makes Right" is alive and well.

"Majority" is merely an occasional convenience, to be abandoned when convenient as well.

[cynatnite]

4. I don't have much sympathy for them anymore

They sold themselves and Terri out to that jerkoff Randall Terry. They are milking the publicity for ever bit they can hold on to. They act like they are the only ones suffering here. They will milk it for more when they sell out for a book deal and movie rights.

[BurtWorm]

14. And they've merrily demonized their son-in-law while enjoying the shit

out of being canonized themselves by the right to life movement. Sickening hypocrites.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. I wouldn't go that far

My father was in a serious accident 12 years before he died.

Every time his condition deteriorated, I suffered another loss as did he, but it was nowhere near the loss I suffered the day he died.

In fact, the worst part is the people who mean well and walk up to you and tell you, *pat pat* "At least he's not suffering anymore." It didn't make it any less of a loss for me.

[BurtWorm]

8. Yes, but you're a good person.

And there is a difference. You didn't turn your private suffering into a national emergency. And bless you for that!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. The hospital where my father treated might not agree with you

I was up their ass a lot. I really feel sorry for families that don't have an advocate familiar with the law, medicare and medicine in general. I had to fight for everything he got.

I have mixed feelings about the parents. Grief makes you do strange things. And the closer their permanent loss beckons, the more hysterical they become.

Out of all of them, it appears the brother was the one to take the radical right wing approach and get these people involved..at least from what I could glean.

I think the biggest tragedy is that what with all these violent Christians around, they won't get the proper counseling they really need.

[BurtWorm]

19. That is disturbing. I think their "spiritual advisors" have been

criminally negligent in preparing them for the inevitable. These guys are media advisors, not spiritual advisors.

[hinachan]

21. That's just sick.

"You didn't turn your private suffering into a national emergency."

Gee, how terrible it is for a family to do everything in their power to get help for their daughter. Let me tell you, if it was my daughter in the same position, I'd do the same thing--not for publicity, but to save her. And if no Democrats would have the balls to stand behind me, then I'd have to hold my nose and appeal to the right-wingers, too, because I'd want SOMEBODY on my side.

How can we stand here, saying it's OK to let someone die when they aren't even sure if that person REALLY is a PVS patient or not? More importantly, how can we smile and nod while the judicial system is basically telling the world, "Once a woman marries, her family no longer has any rights. Her husband owns her, just because there's a legal contract and he screwed her a few times." Makes a great case for just shacking up...and then, not long enough for "common-law" marriage to kick in. No man should be able to tell a family what to do with their flesh and blood daughter.

[BurtWorm]

24. Because frankly there are vastly more important issues for the nation

than private medical matters. That's how.

[thebigidea]

27. not nearly as sick as the deranged circus of vampires feeding off this

of course we're sure she's in a PVS - its only the brain damaged fundies and hired via-video hacks willing to blurt out otherwise.

the kind of people who believe she actually said "I want to live?" earlier this week...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. Not really sure?

Get this straight. There IS NO doubt she is and had been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years. Even her FAMILY admitted that they know this to be true in a court of law.

[Old and In the Way]

41. How many other Terri Schiavo's are out there to be exploited as

"symbols"? I'll bet Terry and his religious zealots are lining up the next one now.

How many families have wrestled with PVS of loved ones in the past? What made Terri's situation so unique? How many more of these national spectacles can this country deal with before it degenerates into social civil war and anarchy?

I feel bad for Terri, but I feel a lot worse for this country and our system of secular law where feelings and religious faith trump the legal process and medical/scientific experts who have analyzed her case for 10 years. Is Terry Randall the new final arbiter for morality and justice in this country? Is he and fellow RW fundie-con men the new American Ayatollahs?

[BurtWorm]

44. I do feel bad for Terri and for Michael.

But I agree with you that the attack on the constitution is the heart of the matter here, as far as most of us are concerned. And it's a much graver threat than the implications of her impending death for our alleged "right to life."

[mondo joe]

43. But they're not saving her. She is unsavable.

And of course it's okay to suspend life support - it's an important right.

Who are you to second guess Terri's choice?

[Old and In the Way]

45. "they aren't even sure"

Who's they? One wacked out nurse and a Nobel Prize nominated quackster? Please, let's be honest here....every reputable medical source agrees she is in a PVS state. Look at her friggen' brain scan. She's dead....her bodies alive.

"Her husband owns her, just because there's a legal contract and he screwed her a few times." Yeah, let's throw out 200+ years of case law and forget about the "sanctity of marriage" that, before Terri Sciavo, was the most important value of the Religious Right.

Are you ready for Terry Randall and Trailer Hitch Jesus to decide our legal cases now? They're going to be busy guys.....there are lots of medical ethics issues involving 100's of thousands, if not milions of people. Hope you like the Brave New World you seem to be so casually entertaining.

[cynatnite]

51. Don't forget that Michael Schiavo loves his wife, too

I had a lot of sympathy for the family in the beginning...even knowing how many years they have fought, I still sympathized. They lost their daughter 15 years ago and still needed that physical touch that only her being alive could provide. It told them that the daughter they love is still alive.

No one is saying it's okay. It's not, but it's not okay to let a shell of a person lay like this when they had said to their husband they would never want to be kept alive in such a state.

She gave her husband these rights to have say over her should this ever happen. He did the same as well. He speaks for her because she can't speak for herself. This has all been proven in court records. Spouses do it all the time.

Your opinion of marriage does not make all marriages the same. Michael Schiavo made sure his wife's family had a part and a say up until they wanted the money from the malpractice suit. Her family is the one that walked out...not him. They didn't get their way and took him to court.

No family should disregard a spouse, either.

[wtmusic]

53. You don't even know what Terri's position is

Every case is different. You've seen some news clips and feel qualified to say you'd do the same thing. How is that?

This case is special because it's borderline. There *is* no good answer. It's impossible to get inside her head and know. Frankly it doesn't interest me that much, because this happens all the time. All. The. Time. Yet fundie Christians have seized on Junior's "mandate" and are turning it into a crusade, with the media tagging along.

Everyone should just STFU and let the family work it out.

[daleo]

68. It is not about the husband controlling the wife, it is about spouses.

If the situation had been Micheal Shiavo in PVS and Terri Shiavo healthy, she would be legally entitled to be making these decisions. Framing this law as patriarchy is incorrect. Besides, most of the people who think her husband is not entitled to make decisions in this matter are defaulting to the father, not the mother. That is the very dictionary definition of patriarchy.

[JI7]

7. no

there have been similar cases. about a week or 2 ago nightline did a show on the Schiavo case and they showed some similar cases. one was a more recent case where a mother had to decide what to do with her daughter who got in a similar state (can't remember how) as Terri Schiavo. the daughter was very young, i think 7 years old.

the mother kept her on the tube for months hoping for improvement but there was never any improvement so she had it removed.

and of course in this case there is an added tragedy in that the girl was so young .

[Lorien]

9. 15 years of false hope is certainly a tragedy

if her body would have quit back then, they could have started the healing process.

Many families have faced greater tragedies and have been largely ignored. A coworker of mine lost his brother three years ago, and on his way to the funeral his family was struck by a drunk driver, killing his wife and son, and injuring his daughter (they only had the two children). It was a mere blurb on the evening news, but my heart still breaks for him today. :cry:

[Biased Liberal Media]

11. Oh my...

I'm so sorry...that is horrible. :(

[BurtWorm]

12. Their current behavior is actually more reflective of Greek tragedy.

Driven by hubris.

[madrchsod]

10. i don`t feel sorry for them anymore

in fact i have nothing but competent for them and all those assholes outside the hospice. as far as i am concerned they can all rot in hell

[Lexingtonian]

13. it's not grief so much-

It's the denial.

As for tragedy, they're trying to generate one. But it's not an argument with God they're having or generating, it's with their own screwed up minds and the people willing to exploit their misfortune and confused emotionalism.

If they actually clued in to God's Will, they'd find the grace and acceptance that Terri is no longer their possession- and never was. Because their argument is only about possession now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Great post as always

what are you doing up so late? I never see you around these parts in the wee hours!

[TahitiNut]

30. I'd be willing to bet it's not the first time she's "failed" them.

Oh.... but they loooove her so much. :eyes:
(Sit up straight. Why don't you lose weight? After everything we do for you. Speak up, young lady.)

There's a whole lotta overcompensating goin' on.

[BurtWorm]

32. You're the first person I've seen make that connection.

I made it a couple of days ago but decided not to share it. But I'm glad you did. It's the hidden history behind the whole sick mess.

[TahitiNut]

36. The family dynamic isn't that unusual, sadly.

The bulimia is the key ... and that she weighted 200# when she was a teen. Terri's not unusual. I've met a lot of gals in that situation.

Of course I could be 100% wrong. Several data points doesn't make a paint-by-numbers. :shrug:

[BurtWorm]

38. I'm surprised more hasn't been said about this, considering that

On the other hand, you make a little joke at the Schindler's expense and--watch out for your head!

[Cruzin2Fold]

65. Again...she was not anorexic

Learn your eating disorders dear, before you start pontificating on them. Bulimics are not the perfect girls of aristocrats. Hate somewhere else.

[TahitiNut]

67. You lost?

Got reading difficulties? Nowhere have I ever said she was anorexic, "dear" ... and you can take your "pontificating" and shove it up your "somewhere else." The "hate" (and arrogance) seems to be all in the eye of the beholder, "dear."

[liberal43110]

15. I don't feel sorry for them either

They have failed, psychologically, do deal with the loss of their daughter, which occurred 15 years ago. Instead, they have abandoned all sense of decency, civility, law, reason, common sense, and love for their daughter.

[hinachan]

16. Let's not also forget

That Michael Shiavo's attorney contributed funds to the campaign of the judge who's siding in with Michael against her REAL family. Let's not forget that a woman isn't a man's property, or a pet that he can stop feeding when he's tired of playing with it. Let's not forget that this man has robbed a family of their daughter, by allowing her bulimia to get to the point where she got into this condition in the first place. Let's not forget the paramedics and nurses who suspected foul play when Terri first entered the hospital. Let's not forget that there is NO proof in writing that Terri didn't want to be kept alive.

In other words, let's be Democrats for a change, and quit pretending a woman's life doesn't matter.

[madrchsod]

20. what are you talking about? i`m far from pretending

her life does matter - all these other sorry assholes don`t matter to me one dam bit...

[magellan]

22. Let's not forget

...the rule of law.

[BurtWorm]

23. Michael isn't wearing his tragedy on his sleeve.

Let's not forget that. Let's also not forget how petty his antagonists--and so many in the right-to-life movement have been. And to pretend that this is a feminist issue, when in fact it's part and parcel of the woman-hating anti-choice movement is utterly perverse.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. Forget it? How about you prove it?

And that would be informative, but for the fact that MANY, MANY judges have reviewed this case and were there an actual cause for judicial misconduct, then the Schindlers' attorneys are guilty of legal malpractice for not raising the issue.

Blaming him for her bulimia when it is a practice set into play in adolescent years is pure crap and if you're going to blame Michael then blame her parents too since they all lived together off and on.

How about you pony up some proof under oath that the hospital suspected foul play?

Finally, who the hell said her life didn't matter. I love people who come out of nowhere and make this claim.

Her life would matter a HELL of a lot more if her parents dedicated themselves to making sure no other young woman's parents have to find out about her daughter's bulimia until it's too late.

[TahitiNut]

33. Well said.

:thumbsup:

[Biased Liberal Media]

26. The woman you are talking about is not going to be the

same Terri Schiavo she was 15years ago- EVER. How can you turn this into a "woman's life doesn't matter" debate??

[Clark2008]

28. Let's not forget that several trial courts, a guardian ad litum

and several appeals courts considered the proof and that it was adjudicated, time and time again, that there was no "foul play."
I have a legal friend - a big Dem - an attorney and her first reaction to me was that "her husband must have done something." I'm sorry. I was abused and I don't buy that all men are evil all the time shit.
There is no proof in writing that Terri didn't want to be kept alive, but, since her husband was in the medical field, I'm guessing, yeah, they discussed it. My family is, too, and, yeah, we've discussed it. BTW, not everyone has the money to run out and get all the things one needs to make SURE that this is what you'd want - I don't.

In other words, Democrats can still be Democrats, and no one said her life didn't matter. They're saying that it's been ruled on by more than 30 judges and they agree with Mr. Schaivo. It's done.

[Bouncy Ball]

34. AH! I read a lot of reich wingers on a petition to impeach

Judge Greer saying the VERY STUFF you are saying here.

Interesting.

Let's not forget how many levels of the judiciary system this case has been through and

every single time, the courts found for the side presenting evidence that Terri would not have wanted to "live" this way.

I love how you just conveniently throw out all those court judgments. Sure you're in the right place here?

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Excuse me?!

That Michael Shiavo's attorney contributed funds to the campaign of the judge who's siding in with Michael against her REAL family. Michael IS her REAL family! She CHOSE to be his wife!!!

Let's not forget that a woman isn't a man's property, or a pet that he can stop feeding when he's tired of playing with it. Yes, let's NOT forget that a MAN is not property either! What a stupid, callous thing to say! Do you know him personally?! MANY people are in EQUAL relationships and let the other make decisions for him or her all the time!

Let's not forget that this man has robbed a family of their daughter, by allowing her bulimia to get to the point where she got into this condition in the first place. Do you know ANYTHING about bulimia? Most bulimics do not publicize it! Most don't even get caught until a DOCTOR discovers it! First you say,"that a woman isn't a man's property," then you say, "by allowing her bulimia.... So which is it? She is a person with free-will or a piece of "property" for her husband to control?!

Let's not forget the paramedics and nurses who suspected foul play when Terri first entered the hospital. Yes...and let's also NOT forget that NONE of those allegations were charged to him, NOR was he found GUILTY!

Let's not forget that there is NO proof in writing that Terri didn't want to be kept alive. While true, let's also remember that loved ones often express things to one another and don't ALWAYS have it in writing! This is why spouses are protected from testifying AGAINST one another, because they often discuss things that are PRIVATE and only RELATE to them!

In other words, let's be Democrats for a change, and quit pretending a woman's life doesn't matter. Let's be Democrats that see this for what it is...a PERSONAL tragedy EXPLOITED by the religious right and the Republican party and quit pretending that the religious and Rethugs are the ONLY ones concerned about life, be it male or female!

ON EDIT...italics problem

[BurtWorm]

40. Let's also not forget that bulimia is an adolescent illness.

It preceded her into her marriage. What did her parents and siblings know about her condition? Now I could feel some pain for that tragic situation, as well, but this seems like a family that doesn't know how to deal with its feelings. Ever.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Very good points!

It burns me when people think that someone can "make" someone stop being bulimic! It just don't work that way! I hope that from this tragedy, more people will begin to understand disordered eating and its consequences.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Let's Not Forget That The DSM IV Says Many Factors

contribute to bulimia including a seratonin imbalance and society's emphasis on what constitutes female beauty...

An overcontrolling family is just one factor...


As someone who has education in the field and personal experience I find it interesting that some folks can presume to offer a diagnosis without ever examining the persons involved..

[BurtWorm]

63. No one here is offering a diagnosis. Just an opinion.

The Schindlers have made their private matter a national matter. Aren't we entitled to have opinions about it?

[Old and In the Way]

46. Thanks.....I'm glad someone took the time to deconstruct that

bunch of RW talking points.

BTW, Terri did make her feelings known to others during the course of conversations at funerals....and Micheal was a respriatory therapist, so I suspect that they had lots of discussions about living death.....

[Behind the Aegis]

49. Appreciate it

The one thing that really pissed me off was the insinuation that Michael is somehow not her REAL family! I have a partner of three years and I dare someone to tell me that HE is not my REAL family! I just find this whole tragedy so scary on many levels. I think the most scary part is what I have seen here. I can appreciate people having different feelings on the topic, but some of the statements are just out of the park!

[mondo joe]

37. Sorry but Michael IS her REAL family.

How appalling of you to deny Terri HER chosen guardian and try to place her like property in the hands of her father.

[Dutch]

54. A persons spouse no longer qualifies as 'real family'???

That really sums up the cogency and accuracy of all your sleazy innuendo-based accusations. And as you know full well, no-one here is arguing a woman is a mans property- but guess what, she's not her parents property either.

[KG]

55. please, don't let the facts get in the way of your talking points

[TreasonousBastard]

29. I don't feel anything for them...

pro or con.

Aside from the "no man is an island" thing, where I sympathize with tragedy of any sort, that is.

But, this is a drama that is played out every day somewhere in the world, and the rules here were laid down over 20 years ago. I don't know these people, and I have no idea where the animosity between them really came from, or why this particular tragedy is suddenly such a cause celebre.

What I do know is that it is private business within the the family, and is difficult enough for them that no politician or preacher has any right whatsoever to tell any of them what to do or how to feel.

Their interference solves nothing and only prolongs the tragedy.

[mondo joe]

39. Their tragedy is of their own making, so not much sympathy there.

Of course they did not cause Terri's death - at least not directly and possibly not indirectly.

But what they have made of it is a greater tragedy, and since it is of their own making only they can relieve themselves of it.

[SillyGoose]

47. Christ! Get a grip. Is it beneath you to feel compassion for a family

who is going through a horrific personal tragedy?

[Biased Liberal Media]

48. is this meant sarcastically?

[SillyGoose]

50. What do you think

:wtf:

[Biased Liberal Media]

52. I'm not sure, I can't read "tone" on a message board

for cripe's sake. There are some people here who don't agree with the feeding tube being removed, which is why I asked.

[Old and In the Way]

59. When my mom was dying from ALS, my family didn't hire

a press relations person and turn her problem into a national tragedy. Granted, she had a consciousness and made it quite clear that she had no desire to live a Terri Schaivo lifestyle and everyone in my family honored her wishes...the point is millions of people have had, are having, or will have their own moral-ethical dilemmas that they will need to face....what makes the Schindler's story so special? Will each one require an Act of Congress? Will each one require CNN/Fox/MS-NBC to cover, in depth, nightly? Will Terry Randell become the arbiter of each case? Opportunists like Terry Randell have turned Terri into a gigantic fundraising opportunity.

The more I watch this pathetic person perform, the less compassion I have for the Schindler family. Yes, I am sorry they lost their daughter 15 years ago....but it's time to let the body go. I have a daughter and if, God forbid, she became incapacitated by way of PVS, I would never dishonor her memory and her life by keeping her body alive as some kind of living shrine to the former person who inhabited it.

[mondo joe]

60. It is beneath me to feel compassion for liars and slanderers.

Sorry - there are too many who deserve compassion to waste it on those who don't.

[Vinca]

57. I can't help but see the faces of those small Iraqi children after

their parents had been blown to bits. Now that's a tragedy.

[graywarrior]

58. I have to right to judge any of this

but I am aware of the anguish over 1500 parents are suffering because they lost children in Iraq and thousands more who grapple with their childrens' permanent injuries and mental illness due to Iraq.

Not to mention how many family members were blown to smithereens two years ago March in Iraq

[Fountain79]

61. Question

Hi this is my first post here. Personally I am not a fan of what is happening to Terri. What I find odd about this whole ordeal is that the courts ruled that Terri would have her feeding tube removed not that she would be denied food or water. I've heard some arguments that she has the capability to swallow but it is very labor intensive. If I am incorrect please tell me.

[daleo]

69. She can't swallow, especially not reliably.

She would almost certainly aspirate her food (take it into her airways and lungs) which can lead to death through pneumonia - or just regular choking. The part of the brain that controls this function isn't capable of doing so. You see this with dementia too.

[Ironpost]

62. COLD HEARTED no, REALIST yes

[glaeken777]

64. i think they're suffering more today...

... than then.

The media, the courts, and all these grand-standers have filled them with false hopes and lofty promises that they probably didn't have before. I think they'll be devastated far more now than if the plug had been pulled a decade ago.

[gulfcoastliberal]

66. Fuck the greedy douchebags mofos!

They got along fine with Michael until he won his lawsuit. Then they demanded a cut of his money he received for the lose of consortium. When Michael didn't bow to their demands, that's when they opted to make his life and his care of Terri a living hell. Remember, they agreed that she was in a PVS before he won the money. This fucking circus all boils down to pathological greed on the part of the Schindlers. So fuck you, Schindler family. May you all rot in hell.

[Quixote1818]

70. Too bad Tom DeLay got their hopes up. nt

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anarchy1999]

72. Oh, for heaven's sake! I call BS and before I could call it the Mods

removed your message.

Good job, Mods. You all are on top of it tonight!

Thanks for time you spend doing the difficult, thankless job you all do.