America-bashers need to read/listen to this

[Jesus Saves]

I see a few real anti-American sentiments occasionally on this board. Not just anti-government, but just anti-everything about America. Well how about the words of this Canadian? Remember, America is a mixed bag - 'the cradle of the best and the worst.' Nothing on this earth is all good, nothing is all bad. America has its faults and its virtues, and those who go too far either way miss the truth.

Leonard Cohen - Democracy Lyrics

It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

[Skip Intro]

1. I'll be happy when it gets here

[kiraboo]

35. LMFAO! Thanks for that on this otherwise crappy day! n/t

[Squeech]

2. Wait a minute

I haven't seen anybody here bash America.

I've seen (I've contributed!) to a thorough bashing of certain people and interest groups, and a certain political party, and maybe certain professions (e.g. what we used to call "journalism"), that have arrogated unto themselves the right to speak for America-- but just because they say they know what we want better than we do doesn't make it so. Besides, we know they're pathological liars.

Anyway, America isn't these 50 states and the people who live there. America is really an old piece of parchment paper, with some archaic writing on it. You probably know it, it starts "We the people..."

That's America. I love it passionately. I suspect you do too; I'm not jealous or anything.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. Good post!

:toast:

[SidDithers]

3. Nice post....

but Cohen wrote that song in 1992. Been a few changes since then, eh?

Some might even say that democracy has come and gone...

Sid

[Vladimir]

5. That is a fantastic song

and Cohen is a masterful lyricist...

[stopbush]

6. Sunday school fare.

What dreck.

One would hope we'd moved beyond such sophistry.

[Redstone]

38. Thanks for pointing that out....

I've never understood why so many people think Leonard Cohen is some kind of poet with his songwriting. After all, this is the guy who wrote what may well be the single most dreary, dreadful dirge ever to get played on the radio: "Suzanne."

You're probably going to get smacked around (me, too) for offering a contrarian opinion on Saint Leonard Cohen, but I agree with you anyway.

Redstone

[stopbush]

54. Not being a fan of pop music, I have no idea who Leonard Cohen is.

And I don't care to know.

I just made an observation on the writing as writing...which was of juvenile, Pollyannish calibre, IMHO.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Can't one say the same about Jesus? ...

( i.e. "the cradle of the best and the worst") and the worship of him as a pagan god.

Mixed bags come in all varieties, seems to me.

[Jesus Saves]

8. Absolutely

The worship of Jesus throughout history has been a very mixed bag indeed.

[peacebird]

9. JS - please understand that I mean no disrespect to your beliefs

but I fear "Christianity" is used as a bludgeon far too frequently. I personally love Lennons song "Imagine"


All religions seem to have zealots. While much good is done in Christ's name, so is much damage. When will the true Christians stand up against the zealots and the neocons and take back Christ's message from them?

When will the honest believers stand up for turning the other cheek? When will those who respect "Thou Shalt Not Kill" rise up and say it also means innocent people in Iraq? What of the love and tolerance Jesus preached? Does it somehow not include people of other faiths? Or sexual orientations?

Did Jesus practice discrimination?

When will others, like YOU, Jesus Saves, stand up for what Jesus spoke? For what he preached?

Just asking....

[Jesus Saves]

11. The misuse of any religion

has nothing to do with its meaning.

Getting rid of religion won't change human nature.

There are a lot of non-right wing Christians, but we don't get a lot of media coverage. Remember all those church leaders against the Iraq war? The Pope was against it too. I also think a lot of liberal Christian focus on the individual nature of the religion, preferring to deal with one person at a time, rather than engage in mass politics.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. The pope *said * he was against the war but he did nothing to ...

mobilize the faithful here in the USA... which actually might have made a difference.

What should he have done? Excommunicated barbarian American priests and bishops, like the pastor in my old neighborhood who ordered " Off we go into the Wild Blue Yonder" to be from the church bell tower at the start of the American air "war". ( I employ quotes because to not do so would imply that there was an air force on the other side against whom the USA was fighting. Such was not the case; It was more like an air "war crime".)

[Straight Shooter]

56. "Getting rid of religion won't change human nature."

No, but it will remove one of its most formidable weapons.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

[realisticphish]

33. when will YOU stand up and HELP US

we cannot do it alone. we have no media voice. we have no political power. i do all i can to fight back against the right wing CHINOs, but it is NOT ENOUGH. instead of whining about it, why don't you SUGGEST something, or get involved. if all we get is criticism from both sides, how are we supposed to make progress?

[peacebird]

34. realistically speaking - I think people will take the criticism of the

"christian in name only" crowd more seriously if the commentary on their hypocrisy is pointed out by other Christians and Christian clergy. Not being a Christian,I have little ground to stand on in criticizing them.

I have spoken out repeatedly regarding the cherry picking of liturgy to suit the chosen point of view - even when they are forced back into the old testament to find biblical "backing". Most peculiar of all to me is how so-called "christians" will use old testament quotes which directly and diametrically oppose the teachings of Christ, yet claim to be "Christ"ians.

This taking back of Christianity is a battle I fear that must be fought by Christians. Sorry realisticphish, but it is your Deity being slurred and demeaned, not mine. However - I will enthusiastically cheer you on and watch your back for you if that helps?

[realisticphish]

49. but we DO

look at the Sojourners, or the recent speaking out against the bankruptcy bill. it's just not a matter of magically making ourselves heard, it will take a long time and a lot more work.

and yes, i understand that it IS my deity, and yes it IS our problem. However, constantly complaining about how we aren't doing enough (not speaking just to you here, but rather the whole board) is the opposite of helping. All I ask is your understanding that it is not as simple as everyone thinks it is to oppose the religious right. we can resist them, but not when our own side undermines us by basically ignoring the work we ARE doing.

basically, im just asking for people to THINK before they start bitching about how we on the christian left aren't doing anything, and actually look at the work we have done.

sorry to keep dragging this out :)

[cry baby]

10. That's beautiful poetry! Just one thing...

I believe with all my heart that when you read one or two posters here at DU that "bash America", they are saying they hate America's policies under b*sh, not that they hate America, their own country. With things going the way they are right now, the anger comes out wrong. No real "America Bashing" going on here at DU.

[Jesus Saves]

12. I agree with that

but sometimes rhetoric can take on a life of its own.

[cry baby]

15. Not if you know the truth.

DUers are talking to each other here. I understand that it is a public forum, but we all know that when we bash, we're bashing policies. Some here are very young and really don't have a good grasp of the fact that framing is everything. If outsiders don't understand what is really being said, that is just how it has to be.

[tom_paine]

39. Even given my feelings and spelling Amerika with a 'k'

(I must note here that I only do that when distinguishing the New Amerika, from the Old American Republic, during which times I spell it with a 'c' because that is the nation I am talking about)

my deep affection for the Old American Republic with it's beautiful (and yes, flawed, for as you say nothing is perfect) System of Checks and Balances, it's Founding Documents and People, along with the way we evolved to fufill the ultimate dreams fo those founders, as Gorge Washington said:

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

The agony that people rae in, for the most part, is witnessing the Death of that Dream, of seeing the Old American System gamed and weakened and destroyed. Of seeing that Beautiful (and yes, sometimes flawed and sometimes doing terrible things) Nation ground into dust under the heels of a Tyrant.

Of seeing the People that Helped Defeat Hitler become broken and slavish, with a Press that matches our New Subservient Character, cowardly and lazy.

And seeing it all done so easily. To someone who, as I did served Old America and STILL belives in it (even today, I do NOT share the sentiment of most Right-Wingers, who would like to see Liberalism eradicated from the Earth, in reverse...that is I realize America (Old America, not Imperial Amerika) REQUIRES both Left and Right to function properly.

What we are seeing is the Death of that, replaced by the Totalitarian Mentality. One Party, One TV Pravda, One Volk, One Fuhrer.

So many on the right try (and succeed) to mischaracterize this agony: the agony of the French resistor to Naploleon, the German White Rose Society, or those in the Phillipines who stood against the Beloved andNoble Leader Marcos, or those who stood against the Beloved, Noble, and Godly Leader Pinochet.

It is truly a patriotic agony, NOT an expression of anti-Amercanism. Just the opposite. It is the agony of a people who know that America has lost it's way at the very least, and come to an end as Rome did when Caeser crossed the Rubicon at worst.

Try to remember that. And also remember no matter WHAT we say, the Bush Totalitarian Sub-media and Lie Laundry will find some way to attack it, to turn it into some expression of anti-Americansism.

Internalize that. ANYTHING we say, short of full and supine agreement, will be assualted as grotesquely anti-American.

Watch Fox "News" for a week straight, if you can bear watching Totalitarian Propaganda for that long, and you might begin to see what I mean.

And try to be more understanding. Try to see it not from the perspective of the Kinder and Gentler Nazis, though I know that's hard because they basically control to some degree 95% of the National Dialogue (as Orwell propehsied) and thus their way of "framing" things is as pervasive as the Communist Linguistic Frames in the 1970s Soviet Union.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Try and understand the love of America that would make people risk taking "unpopular" (at least as far as the Bushevik Party Sub-Media and the Corporate TV Pravda who are dragged around by the nose by them are concerned) stances.

[sffreeways]

48. Now that

is poetry.

Edited for clarity

America Bashers ? My Child ?

What a condescending wad of cud.

[Jesus Saves]

59. It should be noted that in my first post I said a 'few'

In fact I would not say you are like that at all, or most that replied to this thread and seemed to take such umbrage at the me pointing out the obvious fact that there are a few on here that go beyond just the anti-government, anti-status quo, and are really down on America. They draw no distinction between old or new America - they just seem to see it as evil from the get-go. Notice I said a 'few'.

That being said I think the Cohen song has something to say to everyone.

[Doctor_J]

13. America-bashers?

you must bee thinking of Freak Republic.

[Swamp Rat]

16. "America-bashers"

:spank:

[bluestateguy]

17. I still love America

I'm just ashamed of what this country has been doing for the last five years. I used to be very proud to be an American, and someday I hope I can feel that way again.

[WillyT]

18. Don't Know If This Is Anti-American... Don't Think So...

EVERYBODY KNOWS
(from the album 'COHEN LIVE')

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

And everybody knows that it's now or never
Everybody knows that it's me or you
And everybody knows that you live forever
Ah when you've done a line or two
Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton
For your ribbons and bows
And everybody knows

And everybody knows that the Plague is coming
Everybody knows that it's moving fast
Everybody knows that the naked man and woman
Are just a shining artifact of the past
Everybody knows the scene is dead
But there's gonna be a meter on your bed
That will disclose
What everybody knows

And everybody knows that you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach of Malibu
Everybody knows it's coming apart
Take one last look at this Sacred Heart
Before it blows
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Oh everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows



by Leonard Cohen and Sharon Robinson, Stranger Music Inc. (BMI) and Robinhill Music (ASCAP).

Link: http://www.leonardcohen.com/lc12_03.html

Sometimes ya have ta get in your country's face, and tell it to wake the hell up, no???

I mean... if ya love it.

:shrug:

[riverwalker]

19. Leonard's ship has sunk

"The cradle of the best and of the worst" seems to be the crib of Rosemary's Baby these days.

[WillyT]

20. Man... You Critics Are A Harsh Lot !!!

What I'd give for one brief shining moment.

:shrug:

[Bouncy Ball]

21. Jesus is coming! Look busy!

[CatWoman]

63. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

[me b zola]

22. America bashing?

Consider this:

If you have a child who is cutting school, bullying other children, participating in illegal behavior, what do you do?? Do you allow them to continue in their ways because you do not want them to feel as though they are unloved or you do not want to appear to be a less than loving parent? Or do you seek to correct their behaviors not only because you have a responsibility to the community at large not to allow a disfunctional little monster grow up to prey on others, but also because you love them dearly and want them to live up to their potential, all of the good that you know that they could be?

I have only been here at DU since Nov, but what I have seen & read is a deep love & respect for our Nation, the truest of patriots can be found here. May I humbly suggest exercises to open your mind and a bit more reading before you post something so offensive.

Rational thought saves.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. I prefer this Cohen lyric, from the same album

I can't run no more with that lawless crowd
While the killers in high places say their prayers out loud
But they've summoned, they've summoned up a thundercloud
And they're gonna hear from me

-Leonard Cohen, Anthem

Or this one, from a previous album:

You may say that I've grown bitter
But of this you may be sure
The rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor
And there's a mighty judgment comin'
But I may be wrong
I'm just paying my rent everyday in the Tower of Song

-Leonard Cohen, Tower of Song

[bin.dare]

24. this is truly pathetic to resurrect an old song ...

... of Cohen in order to boost the idea that current america isn't so bad after all. Go and play the fucking song for the families of the 100,000 iraqis killed, see how well they respond. And while you are at it, tell them, by the way, that jesus saves. truly pathetic.

[Jesus Saves]

27. It's not old, it's a timeless song

And I didn't justify the war. America is both good and bad, like every country, but maybe, just maybe, there is still a great hope alive in this country. I believe that.

[flaminbats]

32. faith in imaginary lines can vanish in the blink of an eye..

one massive disaster can remind us that human beings are good and bad, like every human, but maybe, just maybe, there is still hope alive in the human race. I believe that.

[bpilgrim]

25. EVERYBODY KNOWS

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

And everybody knows that it's now or never
Everybody knows that it's me or you
And everybody knows that you live forever
Ah when you've done a line or two
Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton
For your ribbons and bows
And everybody knows

And everybody knows that the Plague is coming
Everybody knows that it's moving fast
Everybody knows that the naked man and woman
Are just a shining artifact of the past
Everybody knows the scene is dead
But there's gonna be a meter on your bed
That will disclose
What everybody knows

And everybody knows that you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach of Malibu
Everybody knows it's coming apart
Take one last look at this Sacred Heart
Before it blows
And everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Oh everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows



(L. Cohen - S. Robinson) Stranger Music, Inc.
(from the album 'I'M YOUR MAN')

peace

[Jesus Saves]

26. You think the dice are loaded only in America?

That song is about human nature, not America.

There is hope, 'we got the range and the machinery for change.'

[bpilgrim]

28. nope

but it's the place i care and know the most about.

peace

[OneBlueSky]

29. Reporter: "Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western civilization?" . . .

Gandhi: "I think it would be a good idea." . . .

[UdoKier]

30. Great song, LOUSY intro.

I've never seen anything anti-American on this board.


Looking the other way when you see something wrong with this country is anti-American.

And as for Americans themselves, many of us are short-sighted, gluttonous pigs who probably deserve the shitstorm of misery Bush is creating to last us the next 20 years.

Calling Americans on their horrible behavior may be futile, but it ain't anti-American. It's a desparate attempt at an intervention with an addict that has become an asshole to all those around him.

[Minstrel Boy]

31. "When they said, 'REPENT, REPENT,' I wonder what they meant"

I truly wonder, "Jesus Saves."

At any rate, I've seen the future, brother: it is murder.

[tom_paine]

41. That Leonard Cohen song ROCKS and totally describes Imperial Amerika

Gimme back my Berlin Wall
Gimme Stalin, Lenin, St. Paul
Gimme Christ ro give me Hirsohima
Destroy another fetus now
we don't lihe children anyhow

I've seen the future, it is murder

Things go slide in all directions
won't be nothin, won't be nothin left anything at all
the blizard of the world has crossed the threshold and it's overturned the order of the soul

When they said, 'REPENT, REPENT,' I wonder what they meant

I've the nations rise and fall
I've heard their stories, heard them all
I am the little Jew...who wrote the Bible..."

I didn't really connect the song Jesus Saves was THAT Leonard Cohen.

Actually, in THAT context, I guess I have to agree with the poster below who said that Cohen's work is too deep for Jesus Saves (sorry, no offense, I just happen to agree with that based on your initial misassessment of his , JS, which actually is QUITE "anti-American" as you define it, but which Leonard Cohen and I would probably disagree)

[Minstrel Boy]

43. And you highlighted the line that says it best of all:

"the blizzard of the world has crossed the threshold and it's overturned the order of the soul"

I guess what this thread tells me, is you can't tell people this. They have to intuit it for themselves. Or not. But knowing that something has gone horribly wrong with America is also about self-knowledge for Americans, because the cognitive dissonance between the national myths and the imperial reality is becoming a mental health issue.

[tom_paine]

45. Just as it was before, the last time this Right-Wing Propaganda strategy

was tried.

We all know when that was, and how many millions died before the psychosis burnt itself out and was beaten into submission.

Of course, in Imperial Rome (who is closer to us politically than propaganda-strategy wise)the psychoisis never became so severe as to burn itself out and it had to fall "naturally" of it's own excesses.

That is the difference I think, is that so many more will have to suffer for so much longer for what these generations alive today do or let happen.

We have may have the Propaganda of Nazi Germany (Kinder and Gentler and Different this time) but we have the long-term outlook for the Common People as they did in Augustan/Tiberian Rome.

[kiraboo]

36. Jesus Saves: I'm curious.

What's your stance on gay marriage?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus Saves]

60. To complex for me?

Give me a break, that song Democracy speaks for itself.

[Fleshdancer]

40. I view it more as bashing this particular administration

So many people on DU are angry because we love our country and we continuously witness the horrible things that this administration is doing to her. Barbara Jordan was right...we want a country that is as good as her promise.

I think the people who really hate America are the ones who just don't care.

[Dhalgren]

42. The problem is that the US has always been an aggressor nation.

We push ourselves on everyone and anyone as though we had some sort of divine "mandate". We go about the world killing, maiming, and imprisoning people for our own profit, and we have (as a nation) very little regard or sympathy for anyone not of the American ruling class. The US has done good in the world, but it has almost been by accident and there was invariably a benefit in it for US. We could do much better as a nation, but the big first step would be leaving everyone else the world the hell alone. I know everyone wants to be the loudest patriot on the block, but we as a nation have too much blood on our hands, too much greed in our motivations, and too much hubris to be praised very highly. Will we ever become a better nation? Probably not. Should we stop trying? Absolutely not. But we have to start by being honest...

[matcom]

44. i won't be goaded into being "proud" or "disappointed" with anything

thanks.

i LOVE it when people slap me with a lable. especially when they know NOTHING about me :eyes:

[bigtree]

46. America Bashers

republicans hate our country, they hate our democracy, they hate our freedoms. That's why they spend all of their time and effort trying to destroy these.

As for DU'ers hating America, you are way off base there JS. Go check the freeper boards and enlighten them with this Canadian's nursery rhyme.

What unadulterated sophistry! What mindless automaton drool! What a disgustingly elitist jingoistic pablum!

Do you or this Cohen fellow know anything at all of depth or substance about America or Americans outside of this Pollyanna manifesto that you've presented that you could share with us?

On second thought . . . never mind.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

50. What "anti America" comments are you referring to?

Was it the one about limiting women's rights (ie VIOLATING our Bill of Rights) by the poster who got tombstoned?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jesus Saves]

62. LOL

nice.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

57. ya think?

[Jesus Saves]

58. yep, Leonard Cohen is right up the pub agenda

ya got that right.

[clem_c_rock]

53. America's not all bad. If you just reformed the government

And got rid of rednecks and US foreign policy, I wouldn't post anything bad about America here.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

55. "America-bashers"???

America-bashers???

Listen, "pal", just because we criticize this current Administration's policies, just because we recognize that America has done a lot more bad than good in the past four years doesn't mean we're "America-bashers".

In spite of these pedantric lyrics, in spite of you calling me an "America-basher", I will continue to criticize this country's policies. I will continue to speak out when America does something wrong.

[Stop_the_War]

64. EXACTLY n/t

[Jesus Saves]

66. Where did I say you can't criticize it?

I didn't say that.

And please note the use of the word 'few'.

Can you define the word 'few' for me? Do many here on DU know the defintion of the word 'few'.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

109. You posted the phrase "America-bashers" here on Democratic Underground

Your rhetoric is VERY inflammatory, even if you nitpick about using the word "few" (without any quotes, mind you.) The word "few" is an unquantifiable amount that varies based on it's use and context, so to say a "few" people here could mean 3 to 5 or three hundred (out of the 60,000 plus registered users. 300 out of 60,000 is still a "few", isn't it?)

You painted with a VERY broad brush, but (of course) not mentioning any specific posts. I quote your original post: "I see a few real anti-American sentiments occasionally on this board. Not just anti-government, but just anti-everything about America." Any time I am critical of the government, any time I am critical of the actions of the United States, I am called an "American-hater". It's nothing more than right-wing rhetorical bullshit designed to try to convince the public that we on the left hate America. Using that phrase in your original post doesn't help your point.

I for one will not just accept that America has it's "faults and its virtues".
I feel no desire to sing the praises of America while we utterly destroy another civilization.
I feel no need to celebrate America's glory when nearly 50 MILLION of my own fellow citizens live without adequate health care.
I want no part of any flag-waving while nearly one in every five children will be born into poverty.

That's what the right-wing calles "America-bashing". That's what I call patriotism.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. Yep-DU is full of "America Bashers" who "Love Muslims and Hate Christians"

among other lines of unmitigated bullshit and unadulterated twaddle I have seen floated here of late.

Strange that some members seem to be getting their talking points from right-wing propaganda sites dedicated solely to slamming the good people who post here.

I LOVE my country, and I love the ideals it was founded upon- which is why it pains me so much to see the latter twisted and the former transmogrified into a hollow shell of itself in the hands of utter nincompoops.

Leonard Cohen is a genius but I fear he did not prefigure paper trail free electronic voting or a cowed "news" media wholly owned by 2 or 3 multinational corporations.

I sincerely hope that song comes true one day soon, but right now it is a far cry from reality.

[Jesus Saves]

65. another person who just read a lot I didn't say into my post

so be it...

[matcom]

68. i read your post

guess Jesus couldn't save 100,000+ Mesopotamians huh? :eyes:

[Jesus Saves]

69. nope

ya can't save everyone.

[matcom]

72. would you classify me as "anti-american"?

i'm curious

[Jesus Saves]

75. No

You are definetaly not one of the 'few' I had in mind.

I'm a long time lurker, and I've seen your posts.

[matcom]

76. i would like some specifics to your conclusion

because frankly, i think that based on your 'criteria', i WOULD be worthy of your label.

but, again, i would like to know what you might know about me so i can see what a brush you might be painting "us" with here.

i'm serious.

[Jesus Saves]

78. Well the 'criteria'

isn't spelled out well. I can't highlight specific posts for obvious reasons. But the posts I had in mind, that I've seen from time to time, paint America as a force for evil in the world - some even see it as a force of evil from the beginning. They can't see any good in it. At least that's how the posts come accross. If they're hyping it up for a message board, well maybe so, but they are still responsible for their rhetoric. America has good and bad qualities. It has been a force for both good and bad. It has been a force for a lot more good than a lot of countries, that's for sure.

But if you want the label 'America basher' go ahead and don it, I don't really care.

[matcom]

81. well, as a veteran

i'm pretty fucking pissed off at MUCH of what this country has done over my 36 years of life.

if that makes me a "basher" so be it. i was born here by chance. i didn't CHOOSE to be born here.

do i "hate" it sometimes? damned right i do. but, then again, i'm fighting to change it so i'm still not so sure where that puts me in your realm.

not that i really care too much but i for one am sick to death of the straw-man "'Murica basher" label.

i'll bash the fuck out of it thank you. I've paid my dues.

[Jesus Saves]

83. You can bash it all you want

It's the quality of the bashing that counts. It's the purpose behind it that matters. That's the point in my original post.

I bash the government all the time. I bash parts of the private sector all the time. But I still believe in the Constitution. I believe in the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. I see the faults of America, but I don't lose sight of the many virtues (many obscured true, but still there).

I figured the song Democracy would make my point. But yet so many still became outraged.

[Warren DeMontague]

84. I Don't disagree with the song. I don't disagree with the Constitution.

I disagree with your axiomatic bullshit, i.e. that DU is "full of America-Bashers".

[Jesus Saves]

86. I DIDN'T SAY THAT

I did not say 'full of America-bashers'.

Show me where I said that. Show me.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. You have done an excellent job of repackaging, verbatim

rightwingnut bullshit about "liberals".

i.e. we "blame America first" and consider the US to be "a force for evil in the world".

I would refer you to your post #80.

There is an element that considers ANY level-headed assessment of our country's activities to be "blaming America".. it sure sounds to me like you are aligning yourself with them-- as you are repeating their talking points verbatim.

I would posit that America HAS been a force for good- such as when we have lived up to our founding ideals and acted as an example for freedom and democracy in the world.

But there is absolutely no denying that we have historically engaged in adventurism abroad that has been massively detrimental to various people around the world... Or would you argue that we were "right" in Central America in the 1980s? SE Asia in the 60s and 70s?

[Jesus Saves]

94. yeah, cohen's 'Democracy' is repackaged right wing rhetoric

I said a 'few'. That's what I said. You said I said DU was 'full' of them - that was a lie.

[matcom]

90. they (we) are "outraged"

because we hear this BULLSHIT 24/7

i protest my government and i am "anti-american" .... i "hate 'Murica"

freepers don't give a rat's ass that I (and MANY others here have served)

i'm a Commie
i'm a "dirtbag"

know what?

i DID serve i may STILL be a "Commie" and whatever else they want to label me as.

i'm much more vocal about MY fucked up country than most other DUers and know what? i don't give a rat's ass.

the flag is a piece of cloth. i don't (won't) worship it thank you. ESPECIALLY when it is behind a regime that is WRONG.

and no, this isn't only about the Bush* cabal. when i look to most modern history, i see the most powerful country (and the wealthiest) who has fucked more people and dropped the ball more times than almost any other.

reality does not make one a "basher"

[Jesus Saves]

93. Do you see any good in America, now and historically?

I know you do.

There are few posts on here, from time to time, that seem to just throw it all away.

I'm saying that's a wrong way to look at it.

[Goldmund]

99. There aren't!!!

What you are demanding is that whenever somebody criticizes anything about America, that they have to disclaim it by "but Mur'ca is gooood deep inside!". That criticism needs to be followed by a timid apology. So as to not to be accused of being a bad, bad boy/girl by the jingoists and flag-wavers. Fuck that.

Where the fuck have you seen a post that "throws it all away"????

[Jesus Saves]

102. I can't highlight a specific post

That's against DU rules. But I've seen them. I've seen other DUers challenge them. Like I said they are a 'few'.

[Goldmund]

104. "some people say"

[Jesus Saves]

105. Well I'm sorry I don't write the rules

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

70. heh

let it be written.

let it be done.

:D

[Jesus Saves]

73. Some things are out of one's control

[matcom]

74. stand back Midori!!

i'm about to make him suck on MY communion!!

[CatWoman]

96. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Goldmund]

67. Hm... Find me an "anti-everything about America" post.

Since that would be anti-self as well, for most on this board. Anti-their friends and their family too.

[Jesus Saves]

71. I can't highlight any one post

It's against the rules.

[redqueen]

77. So then how about just an example.

You can paraphrase, can't you?


Well?

[Jesus Saves]

80. Ok

America is a force for evil in the world, and always has been. Variations of that statement have been written at various times. I've seen others challenge them. You know it happens. It's overheated rhetoric that ignores the fundamental truth - America has a lot of good in it, and always has - and there's still a lot of hope.

[redqueen]

82. Maybe you're misunderstanding them...

maybe they're wording their thoughts poorly... I don't know.

I do know that I haven't noticed much if any of what you're saying being posted.

I see that said about certain forces in this country -- the military industrial complex, those behind the corporate power grab, etc. -- but not America in general.

Thanks for trying to explain.

[Goldmund]

89. That's clearly not an "anti-everything" statement.

America is a "force in the world" only as a function of its policies.

[Jesus Saves]

97. IMO it often is

Some of the rhetoric occasionally goes to far.

But regardless, the content of the Cohen song, has relevance to anyone, even those who see the good and the bad, but at times have trouble finding the hope.

[Goldmund]

100. "too far"?

Thanks for setting the absolute limit of rhetorical engagement. Maybe you can enlighten us on some other absolutes. God's phone-bill must be getting steep these days.

As far as the Cohen song, I agree. But you are totally mis-applying it.

[Jesus Saves]

103. Too far

is throwing it all away. I've seen it.

[Goldmund]

106. Sorry, but it's worthless to continue the debate...

...without any idea of what you're talking about, and without any willingness to disclose it. Frankly, I think that you saw posts which are too offensive to "patriotism"(TM) for your taste, and chose to interpret them that way. You did paraphrase one thing -- you cited the example of "america is currently a force of evil in the world", which clearly is not a "throwing it all away" statement. I actually semi-agree with it -- though I wouldn't call it "America", but the corporate ownership classes who lead America and not only America, but most of Western civilization. But I am sure that whoever said that didn't mean "I am a force of evil in the world", or "Yosemite National Park is a force of evil in the world", or "the children in my neighborhood's school are a force of evil in the world" either. Your sense of jingoism got offended. Cry me a fucking river.

[KG]

79. bash.

bash. bash.

bash. bash. bash. bash.


:eyes:

[leftofthedial]

85. Jesus Saves,

I used to save too.

But since Democracy left Murka and the super rich escalated the economic front of the class war, I've had to raid my savings just to make ends meet. No way I could save anything anymore.

Alas!

[Warren DeMontague]

87. Moses Invests.

Sorry, it had to be said.

[leftofthedial]

91. LOL

[Jesus Saves]

88. There are ideals more important than money

But I hear ya.

[CatWoman]

98. speaking of money

you're behind in your child support!!!!

[matcom]

101. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:thumbsup:

[leftofthedial]

115. I'll cough it up for Male and Female,

but the other two don't look like me.

LOL

[Karenina]

117. And YOU AMIS have BETRAYED them all.

AMERIKKKA SUCKS in its current incarnation. You take NO RESPONSIBILITY for the devastation you've caused, NO ONE is held accountable, your dauphin IS your true face, IGNORANT, ARROGANT, DESTRUCTIVE, UGLY and CRASS... DEAL WITH IT. (Oh, I forgot... YOU don't *have to*. You're WHITE, got MIGHT and can BOMB anyone who calls your disgusting shit out into oblivion. :puke: :puke: :puke:)

[Goldmund]

95. Dude, I need to learn to save just like Jesus!

Especially the damn code I spend all night working on!!!

Seriously, you'd think that hitting Ctrl+S every now and then wouldn't be too much to ask.

Sure wasn't for Jesus.

[rman]

108. You must be new here

People here generally don't bash America.
Bush, the government, the media, the Party, the other Party, corporations, capitalism, neocons - those are bashed on way or another on a regular basis, but not "America" as such.

[Arkana]

110. Yeah, sure, just blanket us all as America-hating bastards

How progressive of you. :eyes:

[walldude]

111. Well...

If being against the war is anti-American then I am.
If being pro-choice is anti-American then I am.
If being for gay marrige is Anti-American then I am.
If being for stem-cell research is Anti-American then I am.
If being for helping people who need it is anti-American then I am.
If being against tax-cuts for the rich is anti-American then I am.
If being against government propaganda is anti-American then I am.
If being honest is anti-American then I am.
If being for protection of the enviroment is anti-American then I am.
If being able to think for myself is anti-American then I am.
If dissent is anti-American then I am.
If protesting is anti-American then I am...
I could do this all day. If you don't like that I love the ideal of America but that the reality of this country, at this moment in time, is a big steaming pile of shit then too bad.
I'm not going to stand down and put up with the crap thats going on just because America says it's right. My parents raised me to know the difference between right and wrong. Not "my country right or wrong" but right and wrong. You don't like "America bashers" then find a way to get rid of me...

[RevolutionaryActs]

112. I love your post, walldude!

:yourock:

[BigBearJohn]

113. America-Bashers? Since when are Repuglicans are allowed here?

[cry baby]

114. Since now you say that there only a FEW "America Bashers"

why is it that you didn't title your thread "To the 3 or 4 America Bashers: Please read this"? Your thread wouldn't have created the furvor that this one has. Did you want to make us mad?

I hate being painted with a broad brush just because I hate the present American policies.

[bloom]

116. Are you talking to me?

I think you've got some explaining to do.

[Moderator]

118. Locking

This thread is not providing a productive discussion.