A Distrubing Bumper Sticker

[OETKB]

My wife and mother-in-law were riding to a friend's house in Boston yesterday when I saw a bumper sticker which read:

US MARINES: TRAVEL AGENTS TO ALLAH

You can only imagine the hurt and anger this caused my wife and her mother. My wife is an American citizen who immigrated from Turkey over 20 years ago and her Mom is a permanent immigrant for the past 4 to 5 years. This seems beyond the pale.

I went to google this and saw there was a web-site selling "US Marine" stickers. Where did this come from? Does this constitute a hate crime?

After I post this, this same message will head to Senator Kennedy's office.

[Amfortas]

1. This is appaling!

[Nickster]

2. I've seen stickers, bumper stickers, t-shirts just like this for

the last 20 some years at least. It's not a hate crime per se, just stupidity in action.

[Ravenseye]

15. U.S. Marines: Travel Agents Sending Jews to Jehovah

Would that be considered a hate crime?

For too long in this country hatred of arabs and muslims has been treated like something minor. If it were directed at blacks or jews people would be in more of an uproar.

[Nickster]

23. No that wouldn't be a hate crime either.

I agree with you though, if it were directed at blacks or jews it would be more of an uproar, but no more a hate crime. Just more uproar over the message.

Heck, they have book titles, commentaries, etc etc about how all Liberals are traitors and should be lined up and shot. I don't see it as a hate crime either. That is until someone takes action based on that message, then the action that person or group takes is considered a hate crime.

I'm not saying I agree or condone the message, but this is America and people are free to be stupid.

[alwynsw]

31. Equally poor taste, but no hate crime.

[fryguy]

60. by that logic

wearing a button that says "Kiss me I'm Irish" should be considered a crime of solicitation.....

[fryguy]

3. bad message but not a hate crime

or any crime for that matter. while the message is foul and i don't agree with it at all - or even really understand it - it is protected speech and should be protected.

[OETKB]

5. I Wonder

Is it free speech to advocate killing Muslims by our military forces? I would like a real informed opinion on that one. If I say I want to kill George Bush or anyone else I don't think this stands up as first amendment protection, especially if someone has the means and access to do it.

[alwynsw]

8. The sticker is essentially bashing religion, IMO

If you accept that premise, many of us on DU are equally as guilty for bashing fundies.

BTW. IT is a Federal crime to threaten the life of a president whether you like him or not.

[OETKB]

9. I Don't Think So

Along with that signage, there were two "Support the Troops" stick ons on the car. Being the butt of this message it sure felt like muslims were being threatened with harm.

[alwynsw]

19. Hot button issues.

What's the religion of most of the indigenous population in Afganistan and Iraq? YOu got it. That's why the sticker says what it does.

It's poor taste, but nothing more than updating the same old mantras that have been used for years by militaries all over the world. It's trash talking, albeit probably the worst form of trash talking.

It's not right, but it has happened, is happening, and will happen.

That's both a problem and a blessing in a free society. People get to convey their messages - to a point - without fear of legal intervention.

It always seems worse when such a slogan seems to be aimed at us or ones we know. It's called "hitting home."

I keep a "No Irish Need Apply" sign as a reminder that things we say can cause hurt. That's just a small part of what my ancestors endured. (My ggggggrandfather was sentenced to transportation and indentured after imprisonment for poaching a deer to feed his family. damned lucky he wasn't hanged.) Every people on Earth has endured similar debasement and even atrocities throughout history. Some are experiencing it anew; some are still enduring it.

I still don't see it as hate speech. Hateful, yes.

[diamond14]

65. bush* and his main stream media are whoooping up hate for muslims

on all the TV stations...and bush* WARS are stated by the pResident to be CRUSADES....

IMO, there is just some small event that will cascade all this bush* fundi HATE FOR MUSLIMS into the actual KILLING of Muslims, in the name of bush* god....

it won't take much....our country is a powderkeg ready to blow...and this time "muslims" will take the brunt of it....


this is certainly what bushites want and strive for in all their speeches and all their STINK TANKS and all their news broadcasts....


most Americans, sadly as shown even here...will argue with you about the whole matter...but to me, it's REAL CLEAR that bush* wants MUSLIMS to be KILLED and ousted from America...from the currently operating bush* concentration camps world wide, to the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act to the fundie churches where preyers KILL each other in the church pews....it's HERE ALREADY...for Germany, the Jews took the brutality...and for bush*, the Muslims will take the brutality...

yes, Muslims are very threatened in America today....starting with the pResident and working it's way through all levels of our society....I fear for my country, and our failure of leadership....and I am sorry for all Muslims who call America home...it's all too sad....

[Ravenseye]

16. We don't advocate their murder

We might bash fundies but we don't say that the U.S. government should round them up and kill them.

[alwynsw]

21. I don't see this as advocating murder.

Even though I disagree with current military actions, the opponents in this case are nearly 100% Muslim. I can see the why of the wording but disagree with the sticker being posted.

It's a tough call, but I don't see it as advocating murder. What I do see is a very poor attempt at both supporting troops and identifying the opposition.

What is most sad is that all Muslims are being painted as the opposition in this case.

[fryguy]

37. neither does the bumpersticker - n/t

[Deja Q]

20. One religion bashing another. And I'm sick of it.

Who wouldn't be sick of it?

As the song says; All I want is peace and love on this planet. Ain't that how God planned it? (paraphrased, but accurate in message)

[ashmanonar]

43. but it's not federal crime for him to threaten the lives of others?

what kind of fucked up logic is that?

[alwynsw]

53. It's generally covered under the heading of National Security.

It's a system that has to be in place. We can't arbitrarily withdraw presidential powers just because we don't like the person in office.

On the whole, abuse of power by POTUS, past and present, has been relatively light by world standards. That statement is in no way an endorsement of the current administration, its policies, or its actions.

Think about it. Limit the Oval Office's ability to respond to a true emergency and it can be a recipe for disaster.

edit: I gotta learn to either spell or type

[fryguy]

59. Article II, Section 2

"The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States"

I'm certainly not saying I agree with what he's done, that it is a proper use of the military or even a legal war....but the source of the president's power in using the military is pretty explicit.....

[ashmanonar]

64. oh, i know it's explicit.

and i'm not questioning that that the president has the power so much, but the secret service will go after people for stuff that is arguably free speech. it just seems to me like there are huge double standards.

idk, nothing makes much sense when you're dealing with governments. it's all a bunch of bullshit.

[fryguy]

13. not advocating

the message on the bumper sticker doesn't seem to "advocate killing Muslims" more than it is an ignorant comment by an insensitive individual. i'm not saying the message isn't offensive, especially for muslims, but the test for protection under the first amendment isn't what offends people, it is - in part - what would incite or cause civil disobedience to the listener, and this falls way short of it. but then what do i know, my "uninformed" opinion is only based on three years of law school and being an attorney....

and by the way, threatening the president, regardless of party, is a felony, so it is clearly not protected speech.

[Ravenseye]

18. it incites civil disobedience

it implies that it's fine, and maybe even good, to kill muslims and arabs.

[fryguy]

25. how is it inciting?

its not saying go out and kill, or even its ok to go out and kill. it is saying that marines, and by extension the US, are a bunch of bad-asses that enjoy going out into the world and kicking some ass. now i think that the message is fundamentally warped and disgusting, but i'm sure there are many many people who would think some of the things i, and DU, advocate are equally warped and disgusting to them. it becomes a dangerous slippery slope when we start labling messages and speech "hateful" or "inciting" because of the way certain individuals read and interpret it.

[alwynsw]

27. Kudos! You said it better!

[fryguy]

28. thank you, sir

you've made many good points as well in the discussion

[alwynsw]

30. Let's go Chip and Dale on this.

Noooo. Thank you!

[fryguy]

32. after you, sir

[alwynsw]

34. No. After you!

lmao :silly:

[fryguy]

36. work place productivity is diminshing at an alarming rate....

must.....stop......replying............desk......covered......with......assignments.......deadlines......approaching...........


:toast:

[alwynsw]

49. Who cares?

I'm officially retired!

neenerneenerneener

[diamond14]

70. marines 'kicking ass' = marines KILLING people....that's what marines do

they KILL people....


the marines are an extension of the American people....KILLING by proxy....


it's totally delusional to think that marines are just little social workers and candy throwers over in Iraq....the marines went to Iraq/Afganistan to KILL PEOPLE...that's what their PURPOSE IS...KILLING

[fryguy]

71. um...when did i say/imply any of that?

did i ever mention that marines are a benevolent group or a peaceful extension of US foreign policy? no. of course they kill people, and of course they kill people as a proxy of the american people. that is the role of our military when called upon to do that.

i'm not saying its right and in fact i believe in this case its 100% wrong and unjustified. but that is not the issue nor what i was commenting on in my post. if your post is merely a venting or ranting about the situation, fine. but if you're imputing some intent or sentiment to my comments i would ask that you do so in a manner that reflects accurately (or even coherently) what i was saying. as it is, there is a bit of a non-sequitur in your post.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. Okay...how do you think that message should be interpreted?...

...I can tell you for a fact that when the Marines use something like that as a slogan, sticker, or flyer, they are advocating the killing of the people that are the subject of the slogan. When Marines say they want to "kick some ass", they are not referring to a game of lawn darts...they are definitely referring to killing people that they perceive to be an enemy.

I served with the Marines for three years at Camp Pendleton, CA, from 1978 to 1981, and I got to know their "sense of humor" real well. Anyone who interprets that bumper sticker as just "fundamentally warped and disgusting" is barely scraping the surface of a constantly ready killing machine.

On the other hand, if I had gone into combat anytime during that three year period, I would not have wanted to do it with any other military organization. But there simply is no place for that kind of bumper sticker to be displayed in the US.

[alwynsw]

26. Actually, no.

U.S. Marines: Travel Agents to Allah

As written, the sticker clearly states U.S. Marines. Therefore the sticker only applies to U.S. Marines, and by extension the other branches of the U.S. military.

How could you possibly construe this as inciting civil disobedience?

BTW. I see some civil disobedience as a good thing; as do many other members of this board. What's wrong with a good, old fashioned protest such as a sit in (trespassing) for an example?

On the second part of your post: I agree with you.

[Ian David]

7. Eventually, he will need to park that car somewhere. eom

[NJCher]

4. runner up bumpersticker

In the category "stupidity and no class:"

Even on drugs, Rush is right.

What can you do with people like that but just shake your head.


Cher

[alwynsw]

6. Appears to be another version of the better known

"Kill Them All and Let God Sort Them Out" bumper sticker and t-shirt that's been around for years.

I don't care for either of them, but criminalizing either is a mistake IMO. I take a much broader stance than most on free speech issues.
A bumper sticker, sign, t-shiet, etc. that's out there for all to see is vastly different IMO from a statement made directly to a person or group by an individual or group.

IMO, sensitivity is similar to morality in that it can't and shouldn't be legislated.

Sensitivity has it's place, but like any other thing it can be overdone.

<snip>At least three UMC nurses thought Perez was staying too long in female patients' rooms. Just as many became suspicious of his behavior. But little was documented or communicated - even after a patient repeatedly accused Perez of assault and the hospital investigated.

One nurse who spoke out was pegged a racist. Her observations the night of an assault last June - the attack that led to Perez's arrest - were twice discounted by a supervisor. Another supervisor recorded the nurse's account, but his notes were not given to a prosecutor until five days before Perez's trial.

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/dailystar/65372.php

Apples and oranges to a point, but the article linked does point out that we, as a society, are getting a little too thin skinned and too ready to kill the messenger regardless of the message.

[Stop_the_War]

10. that is sick....

[katinmn]

11. I think it crosses the line, and is a hate crime.

Think about the message. Marines exist to kill Muslims.
If anyone can interpret this differently, please share.

Sometimes it's the more insidious messages that are the worst because people accept them because they're not "in your face."

Consider this bumper sticker seen -- and reported -- as a hate crime in Minnesota:

"Save a dear, Kill a Mong." This was in reference to the backlash against the Hmong immigrant population because a Hmong hunter shot and killed several Wisconsin hunters.

The Minnesota redneck could not spell, but the message was loud and clear.

I believe you are responding to this in the correct manner. Thanks.

[BurtWorm]

12. I would think the Marines would have an interest

in getting that off the market. Unless they believe their "good name" is not besmirched by being tied to racism. I would send a message to the Marines telling them about what your relatives saw.

[OETKB]

14. Is there a web address?

I would be happy to inform them.

[BurtWorm]

17. Try their public affairs office. Link inside

http://www.marines.mil/pashops/pashops.nsf/pamain

[alwynsw]

29. They'd probably get the correct answer from the Marines.

"We don't like it. We don't endorse it. But! We're in the business of protecting that person's right to say what he wants as well as your right to complain about it."

[petronius]

42. I agree with what you've said elsewhere in the thread

But wouldn't the Marines have some control over how their logos/symbols are used? I would imagine that most of the recognizable Marine Corps symbols are entitled to some sort of copyright protection...

[alwynsw]

52. If the Globe and Anchor or other U.S. Marine logo is used

they may have a modicum of control. There was no mention of such in the origination post.

Since I'm not an attorney, especially one that specializes in trademarks or military affairs, I can't be sure, but I'm rasonably certain that even if there were infringement issues, at least some of the U.S. military's symbols fall in public domain.

[fryguy]

58. I'm not aware that the USMC's logo is copyrighted

I don't believe the US Government can be a copyright holder, nor can a national or governmental symbol, such as the anchor and globe, be so restricted. However my understanding of patent and intellectual property law is limited to one course in law school and I don't practice in the field now.....

And you can for sure not copyright the term marines, as it is too generic of a term.

[GetTheRightVote]

22. Just plain & simple appalling sticker, so sorry

:kick:

[GOPBasher]

24. It's disgusting, but no it's not a hate crime. It's free speech.

You can't legislate against hateful speech.

[fryguy]

35. sorry if this comes across as being overly pedantic

you can legislate agasint hateful speech, but we SHOULDN'T legislate against it or we loose the principle underlying the First Amendment.

[GOPBasher]

39. Yeah, that's what I meant. n/t

[katinmn]

47. Whoa there! Are you saying it is ok to say things like:

Save a deer, Kill a Hmung?

Or to make irreverant jokes about killing someone from another ethnic group or religion?

Say you are an Irish Catholic and you saw a bumper sticker that said: Save a Deer, Kill an Irish Catholic?

Is it still ok?

The First Amendment gives us a right to free speech, but not when it impinges on the rights of others.

[fryguy]

56. how do you interpret my post as suggesting that?

I fail to see the leap you've made from my comment about protective speech and statements such as "Save a deer, kill a Hmung"?

I don't think the message on the bumper sticker in question is saying, instructing or advocating for people to kill Muslims, or otherwise impinges on the rights of others. (see my earlier post) And because that is your, and some others here, interpretation of it does not mean it should be stifled. Consider if that were the standard to be applied and neocons, freepers, and other right-wingnuts were able to suppress our speech because they were offended by it? Had the bumper sticker said something such as "Avenge 9/11, Go out and kill a Muslim" or "We Couldn't Find OBL, So Go and Burn a Mosque" - I would be more apt to agree that there is the potential for it raising to the level of speech that should not be protected.

[katinmn]

61. In your opinion, what is the bumper sticker saying?

please share.

[fryguy]

62. see post #25

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3271624&mesg_id=3271867&page=

[alwynsw]

63. Think a minute.

Almost 100% of the combatants facing U.S. forces in Afganistan and Iraq are Muslims. It's nothing more than making light of the situation (as mentioned several times in this thread, in very poor taste).

It may come as a shock to you, but the U.S. on the whole has a long history of making light of terrible situations. MRE's came out for the military, we called them "Meals Rejected By Ethiopians" in reference to both the quality of the meals and the starvation in Ethiopia, which was especially bad at the time. I can't tell you how many versions I heard of, "I said Bud Light" after the Challenger exploded. Nazi extermination camps? One of the most common was about the world record for people in a VW - usually 2 in the front, 2 in the back and 30 or 40 Jews in the ashtray. You can find many more by aking around or doing a web search.

I'm not saying it's right. It's not. I am saying that we do it.

Peruse DU and see how many jokes you find aimed at or about the current administration and the action s in Afganistan and Iraq. You'll find no shortage of tasteless and cruel comments passing for humor.

[katinmn]

67. Just because it's done, doesn't mean it's right

Why do you feel the need to accept it or apologize for hate messages?

There's a difference between bashing a politician's policies and targeting a group because of their ethnicity or religious beliefs. Although there may be a few, I don't see many progressives on DU saying kill, kill, kill.

"It may come as a shock to you, but the U.S. on the whole has a long history of making light of terrible situations."

Ha! Nothing shocks me anymore, including the lies. That doesn't stop me from advocating tolerance and sticking up for people that are targeted with a hate message.

[alwynsw]

80. I never condoned it. Re-read my post.

Stating facts is not approval of them.

[rinsd]

74. That's the problem....

If we're going to base free speech on one's interpretation(or even a majority for that matter) you get into some deep trouble.

[alwynsw]

57. I got no problem with it. Really.

It just exposes the owner for the idiot he is.

Of course, those who put such things on their cars shouldn't be the least bit puzzled when they find damage to the vehicle.

(Irish Catholic ancestry all the way back on both sides here.)

[katinmn]

45. Yes, there are laws against hateful speech that spur violent acts

[GOPBasher]

50. That's IF they encourage violent acts. Yes, you're right. But we should

not have any laws against just hateful speech, if it doesn't encourage violence.

[katinmn]

51. Agreed. I won't part with my * bashing bumper stickers

even though some right wingers probably think they are hateful. :evilgrin:

[GOPBasher]

54. Exactly! n/t

[alwynsw]

33. Gone to the barber.

I'll check this pot later to see if it's still boiling.

[riverwalker]

38. It's Rwanda style hate speech and advocating death

That US Marines will send all Muslims to their death and that it's "funny" enough to put on a bumper sticker for a gaffaw. It dehumanizes the very ones we claim to be "liberating".

[Warpy]

40. Just mentally translate it into its true meaning

"WARNING! This car owned by a braindead, belligerent ASSHOLE"

[Nickster]

48. Ding Ding Ding Ding, we have another WINNER!

You got it Warpy, that's exactly what I was trying to get across.

[lies and propaganda]

41. I went back home recently, outside an AF Base...

saw EVERYWHERE stickers of some bomb dropping plane that read "Peace the Old Fashioned Way." Words cant even describe how sick i felt.

[ashmanonar]

44. so what you should do is make a good vector drawing of

gandhi's face, and put the same quote on it. tit for tat.

[kwassa]

46. "Boycott Jane Fonda - American Traitor Bitch" bumper sticker

I saw that on a truck about a month ago, and almost collided with it.
I thought to myself "some people don't know when to let go ....."

[caligirl]

55. while really sick, my husband(ret col) would defend the right to say it.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. Saying it in private is a good bit different than displaying the same...

...comment in public. There's just no need for that when we have so many of the Islam faith that live in the US.

[Taxloss]

66. "Hate Crimes" have a specific, but secret, definition.

They only apply to faiths and races the government and broader society does not hate. If the existing administration and society does hate the group in question, or at least revels in that appearance, then "hate crimes law" does not apply.

Hence, hate crimes laws fail those in greatest need.

[katinmn]

68. That's it in a nutshell.

If it's YOUR race or faith being targeted it's a whole different ball game.

[Taxloss]

69. Thank you. nt

[yankeedem]

72. These stickers are a public service

They serve to inform us that the occupant(s) of the car/truck is mentally unstable and is probably a chickenhawk. I'd rather have it right out in the open if they asked me for directions, a job, etc. That bumpersticker shows me that this is a person who is not worth getting to know.

And I thank them for identifying themselves.

[katinmn]

76. Thanks for pointing out the silver lining. :-)

It's like wearing a label that says "I'm a stupid bigoted jerk."

[donheld]

73. It's free speech - as appalling as it is

[ArkDem]

78. Us Anarco-Syndicalists believe that the government should

immediately form a committee, with members representing each state and territory, to police and license all bumper stickers displayed in the United States and territories.

[fryguy]

79. Ah...now we see the violence that's inherent in the system!

Help, help, I'm being repressed.....

[ArkDem]

82. Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that?

Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

[onenote]

81. nothing new

Demonizing/demeaning the "enemy" is what happens in wartime. Take a look at some of the posters and slogans from WWII belittling the "Japs" and the "Huns" and making clear that the only good one was a dead one....

Its disturbing -- but its just speech and I'd rather not have someone in the government sit in judgment as to when some arbitrary line has been crossed. What concerns me more is actions, like the WWII internment camps and Guatanamo today.

onenote