Let re-framing begin. Time to rip Christian out of the cold clammy

[Hoping4Change]

grasp the greed soaked, hate-filled, merciless right. John Scalzi suggests that fundamentalists be called Leviticans which would befit their faith, inclinations and enthusiasms:


"To suggest that a Christian is actually a Levitican is not to say he or she is false in faith -- rather, it is to suggest that their faith is elsewhere in the Bible, in the parts that are easy to understand: The rules, the regulations, all the things that are clear cut about what you can do and what you can't do to be right with God. Rules are far easier to follow than Christ's actual path, which needs humility and sacrifice and the ability to forgive, love and cherish even those who you oppose and who oppose and hate you. Any idiot can follow rules; indeed, there's a good argument to made that idiots can only follow rules. This is why Leviticans love Leviticus (and other pentateuchal and Old Testament books): Chock full of rules. And you can believe in rules. That's why they're rules."



This excerpt is quoted in a blog titled Understanding The Red States: Leviticans vs. the Beatitudes. Its a very interesting read by a Canadian blogger, a lapsed Catholic who attended a semi-private boys' high school run by the Jesuits.


Also quoted in the blog is writer John M. Ford who refuses to use the word “fundamentalist,” or any of its variations:


"To put it in very direct terms, what we are talking about here are psychotic death cults , of the sort we associate with horn-hatted fictional Norsemen and the Uruk-Hai"


snip


"There are people out there who believe (that isn’t really the word I want, but it’ll have to do for now) that an entirely literal atomic conflict on the plains of Megiddo is a necessary precondition to the return of the Christ, who will come as a thief in the night with a bag of Molotov cocktails. We know, as much as we can know any of this sort of thing, how Jesus responded to the loss of a single beloved one. John didn’t need many words to describe it.

"Jesus wept," in case you're wondering exactly how many words."



http://westexpressway.typepad.com/westexpressway/politics/

[megatherium]

1. Using 'Leviticans' as a derogatory term

may be construed as anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish): Leviticus happens to (in part) specify the laws and practices of the Jewish religion.

[Hoping4Change]

3. Where in the essay is Levitican a derogatory term?

[megatherium]

23. It sounded like it was meant to mean "legalistic", a common criticism

of certain Christians by other Christians. Upon some reflection, I regret suggesting "Levitican" might be construed as anti-Semitic. Certainly, I agree with the sentiment of the original posting: the legalistic, intolerant use of the scriptures by conservatives misses the true spirit of Christianity, as taught by Jesus himself.

[susanna]

28. How 'bout neo-Pharisees? n/t

[Hoping4Change]

29. Or perhaps Pharisee-Wannabes. Actually I think you're on to something

given that the Pharisees regarded themselves as having final say about all things godly.

[jdj]

30. actually I think Philistines is the best moniker.

I believe that the Jews hated them too.

[Hoping4Change]

32. But the Philistines being the enemy of Jews did not troll the Old

Testament to find justification for intolerance. No matter how you slice it without the Old Testament specifically Leviticus the Religious Right would be up a creek without a paddle.

[checks-n-balances]

4. OK, then, how about Leviathans? n/t

[patrice]

2. So let's reframe this:

J.L. Phelps, attorney, daughter of Rev. Fred Phelps, the notorious hater, on Franken's show Weds said something that amounted to this: Jesus sacrificed once and for all time and all people, so we don't have to.

So since Jesus did that we are forgiven, no matter what we do, so what one does doesn't mattter?

I understand and agree with their notion that you can't get heaven by bartering with "good actions", I just don't understand why what he did does not require that we be mindful of our actions.

This really is a big difference amongst Christians.

[checks-n-balances]

5. Good point. They've forgotten all about Matthew 28, The Last Judgment

Where Jesus talks about what we have or haven't done for "the least of these".

[Hoping4Change]

26. The "grace vs. works" controversy has been raging since Martin Luther.

and no one is going ever to resolve it. Like everything else in the Bible there is enough to argue both sides.


If every one in the world stood up and said Phelp's is right are you going to throw in the towel?

[ninkasi]

34. So why the hatred against Gays?

According to the Phelps spawn, "Jesus sacrificed once and for all people, so we don't have to." Since it's the actions of gays that get's old Fred's dried up old hateful 1 1/2 inch ahh..."member" all hot and bothered, shouldn't it mean that gay's are also forgiven?

All this stuff gives me a headache.

[Hoping4Change]

35. Phelp's is referring to the largely Protestant belief that good

works don't save souls from Eternal Damnation which is why Evangicals feel so compelled to convert people because they "know" Joe Pagan is is not going to go to heaven no way no how. It doesn't matter that Joe Pagan might be the nicest kindest person on earth if he doesn't accept Jesus before he dies he is loses out on salvation. The grace Phelps is referring to is bestowed on those who accept Jesus and repent.

[ninkasi]

36. Phelps knows about as much about Christianity

as a sea cucumber knows about quantum mechanics. My first father-in-law, who was the most generous, loving, caring person I've ever met in my life was an atheist. If that man isn't in whatever heaven exists when people die, then nobody belongs there.

I was raised as a Methodist, but somehow, our pastor seemed to think we needed to include good works along with belief, because if we didn't, we wouldn't be truly accepting Jesus. True, this was many, many years ago, and I haven't been to church except for weddings and funerals for many years, but still...I have to say I think Phelps and his followers somehow talk and act more like people who worship Lucifer.

[Malva Zebrina]

6. well, Jesus was Jew and never claimed otherwise.

Interesting the Jesuit background on this type of thinking even though the person is a lapsed Catholic.

Rather a little fun I think.

He argues like a Jesuit.

The literalist fundamentalists MUST absolutely embrace the old testament, for it's survival depends upon the prophecies contained therein and they interpret those prophecies , using them to fit their conclusion that Jesus was a god.

Without that to point to, the existance of Jesus as the son of a god, would not survive. Without that, they would be defunct in their theology. Therefore, the OT must be defended as literally the word of a god.

They claim to be a "branch" of Judaism and they claim they worship the same god, but as anyone can see, the god of the Jews is NOT the same as the god of the Christians, who is actually three gods contained in one according to the theology. NOT A JEWISH CONCEPT AND NOT THE SAME JEWISH GOD.

It is NOT Jesus and his wisdom words they choose to follow, but they instead, choose to follow Paul. Paul never met Jesus and mentions him only once. Paul broke with the Jerusalem Jews who actually did know Jesus, and energetically went about forming his own religion to fit his own theology.

It was not Jesus who instigated Christianity at all. He remained a Jew, followed the customs of the religion he was born into, and never tried to form a whole new religion called Christianity.

[Hoping4Change]

12. Although you points are interesting they don't reframe "Christian".

The fact that "Leviticans" are hell-bent on finding proof of Christ's divinity in the Old Testament is irrelevant to re-framing the idea of Christianity. The Religious Right has been very successful in selling its concept of Christianity but it is simply a concept and their concept has very little reference to the beatitudes. Jesus had a different concept of Judaism than did his compatriots which is why he wasn't voted the most popular member of the temple. Jesus had a different take on things. Leviticans have their own take on things. They they regard their take on things as being the final word. The writers I quoted all make the argument that the Levitican take on things is actually not Christian at all in fact they are a psychotic death cult.

p.s. Jesus did not stand on the Mount and deliver a sermon re-iterating the 10 Commandments. He could have but he didn't. He didn't even say Blessed Are Those who Follow The 10 Commandments.

[Malva Zebrina]

16. Not trying to reframe a damn thing

just stating the irrefutable facts.

Jesus was a Jew and never tried to form the new religion called Christianity. Neither did those who followed him in Jerusalem try to invent a new religion called Christianity. In fact, they rebelled against Paul who indeed was the one who invented Christianity, using Jesus' name as the logo for his own promotion of this "new" religion which was hiw own idea.

I think to say otherwise, is really the attempt to reframe the facts.

Paul is the one who invented Christianity not Jesus. He never met him and mentions him only once.

I am not trying to say that the man Jesus, according to the biblical text, did not have a few universal truths to provide,which had been around for while even before Jesus, but only that he did not invent Christianity, was a Jew from the get go, never gave up his religion or discarded it, followed all the requirements, as is evident from the scripture if you believe that to be the truth, and that those who insist that the OT must be interpreted literally MUST do so, indeed are obliged to do so, in order to promote their own religion--ie the prophecies of a "messiah" in the OT that they connect to the man Jesus.

This is also not consistent with the Jewish religion or their belief in their own god, so the claim that Christians and Jews worship the same god is false.

[Hoping4Change]

18. But there are no irrefutable facts beause belief is a matter of

faith and faith is the evidence of things unseen.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. well my friend

you have morphed the discussion into a discussion of faith and that cannot be debated as it is a matter of belief.

I am interested in fact. Will not debate "belief" as it is a futile debate.

You can believe or have faith in all that you choose and I will not refute that.

You can believe or have faith that the sun will rise in the east, when that is not really the case.

[Hoping4Change]

20. Except for your statement that Paul never met Jesus nothing

else in your posts is a fact. You draw conclusions and state opinions but you are not stating facts.

[Malva Zebrina]

22. Is it not a fact that Jesus was Jew?

I mean, really, this is a fact taht cannot be denied.

Is it not a fact that he remained a Jew and followed all the requirements of that religion and was called Rabbi?

To deny that is a deceit.

There was NO Christianity involved in the mission of Jesus. He never intended to start a whole new religion that was in conflict with his religion, and that is proved by the facts contained n the NT. He observed all the cultural requirements of the religion he was born into, and did so faithfully. He chose to confront those in his religion who were going against the law of Judaism and aligning themselves with Roman culture and beliefs.

Is it not a fact that Jesus never instituted or formally instituted a religion called Christianity?

To the day of his death, if you believe the scripture, he followed the religion he was born into and that was the Judaic religion and was NOT a whole new religion called Christianity.

Is it not a fact that his mother was also a Jew? Who also followed the law re the Jewish religion according to the custom?

Is it not a fact , if you believe the scripture, that Paul broke with the Jerusalem Jews to form his own religion that was against what Jesus believed, as a Jew, and that he never met Jesus and that he mentioned Jesus only once?

Is it not a fact that the theology of Christianity was developed and defined by Paul, who, as a citizen of Rome, had knowledge of the gods in the Roman culture, declared that Jesus was a god who was raised from the dead, as Roman gods were also, and therefore was indeed a god and that he pushed this theology upon those Gentiles whose beliefs were centered upon these gods for the purpose of increasing the numbers in his newly founded church?

If he did so, well that is fine, but the notion that Jesus founded Christianity and not Paul, is not truth. The notion that all the words ascribed to Jesus in the NT, which many have been questioned BTW as true sayings and not some form of scribal midrash, is also a consideration.

Did Jesus say something profound about the Gentiles in his missionary acitivity? Did he avoid preaching to the Gentiles? Look it up. Jesus did not preach to the Gentiles.

[megatherium]

24. Jesus did indeed say something profound about Gentiles!

There is the story of Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. This is breathtaking when you understand the implications. Jesus also told the marvelous parable of the Good Samaritan.

Maybe Jesus did not found Christianity. (He did appoint 12 disciples, and he did send 70 out to preach in his name.) But things happened quickly after his death: there is no evidence in the scripture that his followers did not immediately believe in the resurrection. Paul was a convert to this new religion several years later. He worked with Barnabas, who came from the believers in Jerusalem; Barnabas preached to the church already founded in Antioch before Paul arrived there. Even after his missions began, Paul was in contact with the Jerusalem church (as described in Acts, Paul met with them to hash out a resolution to the first great controversy in the new religion: must Gentiles first become Jews? The answer decided upon of course was no.)

[Malva Zebrina]

25. Yes and it was Paul who started the religion of Christianity and not Jesus

It was Paul who broke with the Jerusalim Jews over the matter of circumcision, a distinct mandate within the Jewish religion, and what is now known as Christianity is the result of Paul's own personal developed theology and not that of Jesus who was Jew and who faithfully practised that religion by all accounts in the scripture, if that would be your reference as to the truth.

So, all of the sayings of Jesus ,as recorded in the scripture, which many have been questioned, (see the Jesus Seminar) are actually coming from a Jew who had no intention of forming a religion called Christianity. That was Paul's invention. And his claim was some sort of miraculous vision on the way to Damascus, by which he claims Jesus spoke to him. and the version of each is different, depending upon what version you read. Might be suspicious to those who seek truth and not faith.

And Paul is the one who the literalist fundamentalists are following more so than Jesus. He is the one that puts women in their place. Jesus was not known to do that much, and also Paul was the one that put a sin on sex,and homosexual sex, whereas Jesus did not mention that much either. So, take your pick--the literalist fundamentalists have chosen Paul over Jesus and most who are appalled at that, calling these Christians not "real" Christians, fail to admit that Paul is a part of their own religion and is part of the bible and is the inventor of the religion called Christianity.

Going to leave now.

Thank you for a nice conversation.

[Hoping4Change]

27. The reason I start this thread about "reframing" the word Christian

is that the Relgious Right has drained from it any association with compassion and kindness. The consequences far exceed any religious concern. For instance I never cease to be amazed that these Christians aren't up in arms about for-profit healthcare given that Jesus cured people for free. Given all the venom being directed at Canada these days by these Leviticans, could anything be more ironic than that the father of Canadian healthcare was a devout Baptist minister who decided that his faith demanded that he enter into political life so that he could help the helpless? Go figure.

[Jesus Saves]

7. You're exactly right

As a Christian you're supposed to be living under the New Testament. Funny how they never want to put the Sermon on the Mount in any courtroom. Funny how they pretty much never talk about it.

[Hoping4Change]

8. "On occasion people ask me what it is I have against Christianity"

"My general response is: I have nothing against Christianity. I wish more Christians practiced it."

http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/002675.html


I love that quote.

[Jesus Saves]

9. Yep

that quote is right on.

[Hamlette]

10. or: don't tell me you're a Christian, let me figure it out for myself. n/t

[Hoping4Change]

14. Gee are you being sarcastic. No let me figure that out for myself nt

[Lindacooks]

13. Or the beatitudes.

Never hear those fucking fundies talking about that, do you?

Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full. Woe to you who are well-fed now, for you shall be hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

http://www.gutlesspacifist.com/gp/archives/002835.html

[Hoping4Change]

17. Strange isn't how ignoring this itty-bitty sermon says so much about

about adherents of the psychotic death cults aka the religious right.:freak:

[CornField]

11. "God's Politics" by Jim Wallis

I'm currently reading this book and I've already decided to mail it out to my fundamentalist brother when I'm done.

It is a really nice read -- and brings up a lot of points. (Why are the only Christian values being expressed by the GOP those that center around abortion and/or homosexuality?)

[megatherium]

21. certainly the GOP doesn't show much concern for usury,

the basis of our economy. Technically, any interest is usury, but 30% on some credit card debt is just outrageous. Even 18% is greedy.

[sonicx]

15. According to Leviticus...

you can't have sex with a girl while she's on her period. Let's see them legislate that...

[ultraist]

31. whacko fundie cult followers works for me

[Hoping4Change]

33. "I refuse to use the word “fundamentalist,” or any of its variations,

writes John M. Ford, and I cannot agree with him more strongly. Even using fundie as an insult is dangerous because you are playing into their demented notion that they are being persecuted because of the PURITY of their faith.


"The first reason is that it is an inaccurate term; these positions do not reflect the fundaments of either Christianity or Islam... the premise that these are the root principles, and everything else, like, oh, tolerance and compassion, are poisonings of the spring, is a lie and a slander.


Indeed, where exactly is the Christianity or Islam in either of these two debased ideologies? ... To put it in very direct terms, what we are talking about here are psychotic death cults."



http://westexpressway.typepad.com/westexpressway/politics/

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[Swamp Rat]

38. 3, 2, 1... See ya!

:hi:

[Hoping4Change]

39. Then Christ is a Liberal because he re-framed Judaism.

Jesus did not recite the 10 Commandments he did not scream about homosexuals and fornication nor did he deny the poor free health care. He could have. He could have been shrieking about sin and damnation but he didn't.



Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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