DOD forces AF medical personnel to carry M16s

[Avalux]

Air Force medical personnel (docs, nurses, techs) upon arrival at mobile field hospital in Iraq are being given M16s and told they have to guard the hospital themselves and act as escorts. These are medical people - they've never handled a gun and aren't supposed to under the Geneva Convention (non-combative status). At first, the Air Force wasn't training them stateside, just sending them for a 6 month tour and handing them guns when they deplaned. Can you imagine that? Now, they get 1 Day of training before their tour. 1 DAY. Pardon my french, but this is FUCKED UP. Doctors and nurses aren't supposed to shoot people.

It's obvious the troops aren't available to provide the security needed for the mobile field hospital. So medical professionals, people who have taken oaths to safe lives, are now expected to take them too. As a medical professional myself, I am horrified.

This is a first hand account from someone who has gone through the training every year for several years. As you might expect, he is outraged by this new weapon component.

When are people going to realize we're not in Kansas anymore?

[Endangered Specie]

1. Hippocratic oath?

:shrug:

[Avalux]

2. That's what I said -

but I guess it doesn't matter. I've been shaking my head about this all day. Rumsfeld.....

[Endangered Specie]

4. So if they shoot someone...

they will have to try and heal them?

that would be an awkward moment when you wake up, to see your shooter as your doctor.


of course if you got well, you'd be trespassing and he have to.............

[Avalux]

3. Hey - someone read this - it's important!

Thanks.

[DELUSIONAL]

5. more of Rummy's war planning.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. That means to me that the military can no longer protect the medical....

...personnel that are supposed to be in the rear saving lives at the mobile field hospitals.

I'd start learning how to wear body armor, a flak vest, and a helmet, if I were them. I'd also start making sure that the tents of the mobile field hospitals are sandbagged to the roof-line.

[Avalux]

7. exactly -

we don't have the troops to protect the medical staff. So is it even feasible we can extend our military operations to other areas? NO.

[BrotherBuzz]

13. “You go to war with the Army you have,

not the army you might want or wish to have.” - Rumsfeld :shrug:

[RamboLiberal]

8. I remember watching one of the nets or cable news shows

a couple of months back on US military field hospitals and seeing many of the nurses/aides carrying sidearms. One nurse had a shoulder holster on. Looked like it got in the way a lot when treating patients.

FUBAR all right!

[FM Arouet666]

9. I agree, also in medicine, and I will refuse.

Just pathetic. What next, the company priest presides over the daily torture? Got to love GOP ethics, "ethics are what we tell you they are."

[Avalux]

10. They have no ethics, no morals

they are sick people.

[FM Arouet666]

25. Agreed

The sickness is spreading, it would seem, 60 million casualties.

I like your Thomas Paine quote, a great American. I often wonder if GOP propagandists include Paine in their rhetoric about the founding fathers. My guess is that most right wingers have no idea who he was or what he stood for. Sad how the dreams of our founding fathers has been so corrupted.

[BlueStateBob]

11. Help!!...can anyone guide me to info on the real death toll in iraq

i've heard that the dod rules of declaring war deaths in iraq is not necessarily the total number of deaths that have occurred...i.e., if an injury happens and the soldier is flown to germany and he then dies it's not counted as a war death...has anyone heard about this?...and where can i find out the real truth about the cost in lives this war is costing...isn't it amazing that we can state for the american public that 62% voted in the election but yet we don't have a clue as to how many we've kiiled?...help me oh enlightened ones

[merh]

16. Below are links to DU threads that have discussed this

and some sources - the numbers vary - who knows the truth?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3152861

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1641885

http://www.iraq-war.ru/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=40295

http://icasualties.org/oif/

[Crunchy Frog]

17. This is where you want to go for that info.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Yes, they do report soldiers who die in the hospital after sustaining injuries. In fact, at the top of the page right now, you will see a DoD report of a soldier who died at Landstuhl on March 4th of injuries sustained in an attack on Feb. 27th.

The site keeps very close track of all documented coalition fatalities from all causes.

[BikeWriter]

12. That really, really sucks. They didn't issue weapons to non-combat...

...personell in VietNam unless it was very dangerous conditions.

[cynatnite]

14. Do you have a source for this?

This needs passed around and I'd like something to email everyone I know about it.

[Avalux]

15. Personal source -

someone who actually attended the training - first hand knowledge. I don't have anything in writing and I don't think he'd be willing to disclose his identity. I even hesitate to say where this training occurred. I agree with you though - the information needs to get out there. I'm trying to decide how to go about doing it.

[cynatnite]

18. Contact Will Pitt

He'd be the guy to get the ball rolling or at least help you out.

He's a know-how guy...not to mention cute B-)

[Avalux]

24. thanks!

I'll contact him tomorrow. :hi:

[merh]

19. Thank you for sharing what you know. If you find a link or some

source we can site, plese let us know.

When I think that the admin can't stoop any lower, I read something like this. :cry:

Even on MASH, Hawkeye refused to carry a sidearm to the front saying he was a doctor, not a soldier. Didn't the message of MASH reach any of these evil bastards? Hell, in my area MASH isn't on anywhere in syndication.

[PaganPreacher]

35. Ummm, merh, Hawkeye wasn't a real person.

The real people who are running the real war know the real rules, and they don't use fictional characters from an old sitcom as their guide.

So wipe your tears, merh, and stop trying to blame evilboooosh for a lawful, normal military practice (armed medics) that is at least 50 years old.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[PaganPreacher]

20. This is the real world, not a M*A*S*H* episode.

Now, to inject 100 mg of reality into your Hawkeye-Trapper John fantasy:

1. All enlisted personnel in the Air Force (including medical branch personnel) go through Basic Training at Lackland Air Force Base, TX. That training includes M-16 qualification. Flight personnel qualify with a sidearm.

2. US Army medics have carried rifles or pistols (sometimes both) since the adoption of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, including in Korea, Viet Nam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and OIF. Medics have been awarded the Medal of Honor for protecting their patients from enemy attack, with their issued rifle or sidearm.

I was an Army medic for 12 years, and I took a rifle (government issued) and pistol (my own) to Saudi for Gulf War I. That same practice is common in Afhanistan and Iraq today.

Army doctors in the field are usually issued sidearms. USAF flight personnel, including flight nurses or flight surgeons, may be issued sidearms for their own protection if shot down. All personnel in high risk areas are issued weapons for their own protection, and are expected to carry them.

3. The Geneva Conventions of 1949 (and amendments) do NOT say that medical non-combatants are prohibited from carrying weapons for their own protection or the protection of the wounded. On the contrary, it is the duty of military medics (including medical and nursing officers) to protect their patients and themselves.

4. Newly commissioned USAF doctors and nurses do NOT receive "one day of training before their tour." The truth (easily found, if you had bothered), is that all USAF medical and nursing officers go to Commissioned Officer Training at Maxwell AFB upon accepting their direct commission. That course is 23 days for active duty officers, and 13 days for reserve officers. http://www.ots.afoats.af.mil/

The Pagan Preacher,
in who is still in Kansas, Toto (for real).

[Avalux]

22. Nice post, but

give me evidence of M16 training by commissioned AF docs and nurses. Tell me why my source, who has attended CMRT every year for the past 11 years has NEVER been handed a gun and told to learn how to use it.

[PaganPreacher]

Moving the goalposts, are you?

The first sentence of your original post stated that "medical people (docs, nurses, techs)" were issued weapons, and had no training to use them.

Since "techs" are enlisted personnel, and all USAF enlisted personnel are required to qualify with an M16 at Basic Training, then your first sentence was false.

Your second sentence says, "these are medical people, they've never handled a gun and aren't supposed to," which does not differentiate between the officer and enlisted personnel you identified in your first sentence. You repeated the same error (or falsehood, if I am not feeling charitable.)

You also said that Air Force medical personnel "aren't supposed to" carry weapons. Guess what? If their commander orders them to carry a weapon, they have to do it. Refusing a lawful order (and it is lawful to order military personnel to carry weapons) is a crime.

Your next error/falsehood (in the same sentence as the last one) was the statement that the Geneva Conventions prohibit medical personnel from carrying weapons. Here is a reference page on the Geneva Conventions (note that it does not prohiblt medical personnel from carrying weapons): http://www.genevaconventions.org/

Then, you said "at first, the Air Force wasn't training them stateside...now, they get one day of training" which I disproved as far as enlisted personnel go, and which TreasonousBastard disproved for doctors at post #21 (using a PBS article).

Now, you want to know why your friend didn't receive weapons training or qualification during CMRT. The answer to that is simple: because Combat Medical Readiness Training is medical training, not weapons training. Hence the "M" in the acronym, instead of a "W".

Since you wanted evidence of M16 training by USAF medical officers, I offer you the curriculum vitae of Brigadier General Howard McMahan MD, who was awarded the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (http://arpc.afrc.af.mil/bios/mcmahan.htm), and Colonel Robert Dever MD, who was also awarded the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon, with bronze star (http://arpc.afrc.af.mil/bios/dever.htm).

The Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon is "awarded to Air Force personnel who qualify as "expert" with either the M16 rifle or issue handgun on the Air Force qualification course...The bronze service star is added to the ribbon for those personnel who, after June 22, 1972, meet award criteria with both the M16 rifle and the issue handgun."

So, did your friend become proficient with his issued weapon? The life he saves may be his own, after all.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[merh]

36. .

The point about MASH is that they have removed programming that would make people think that WAR is bad. MASH had an impact when it came out, it helped get folks to realize the evils of war.

[PaganPreacher]

37. Thanks for editing, merh. I respect you for that.

The movie MASH was a great black comedy.

In the movie, the surgeons didn't end the war, they didn't change the war, they survived the war and went home. Ultimately, their rebellion had no effect on the war itself, which was not a very good anti-war message (more a commentary on the impotence of rebellion against the Machine).

The people in the theaters had been subjected to TV reports from Viet Nam on their TV screens, and needed something to laugh about. Black comedy is good for surviving the horrors of real life, but doesn't change the horrors themselves.

The sitcom M*A*S*H was entertaining, but dropped the black comedy in favor of "safe" TV yuks (including the oh-so-straight transvestite Corporal Klinger, who had to be a parody of a real transvestite to appear on the small screen).

If you remember M*A*S*H, the strong "father figure" was the by-the-book commander, Colonel Potter, who wore an old campaign hat and a .45 when the unit moved in the field. The 'renegade' officers submitted to his authority, and the war lasted for 12 seasons.


The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. I don't know what the rules are, but...

I do know that in Iraq they are putting doctors and nurse much closer to the action than they used to. The idea is to give better inmmediate treatment than the medics can, and has probably resulted in the death toll being as "low" as it is. Some estimates are as many as 10,000 wounded would have died under older systems.

So, I'm looking around to check the stories I've heard about armed medics in past wars, (incuding weapons forced on conscientious objectors who were noncombatants) and didn't find what I'm looking for yet, but did find this:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/jan-june03/combat-medicine_3-29.html

"SUSAN DENTZER: So here the doctors and nurses practice returning enemy fire with dummy M-16's, then removing the injured to a safer location for treatment. After the exercise, air force pediatrician Dr. Cathy McElveen; she told us the training hammered home the stark contrast between combat medicine and her civilian medical training."


It doth appear to be policy that doctors who are on the "front lines" might be expected to shoot their way out of danger before giving treatment. Presumably, the people who are supposed to be doing the shooting have already been shot.

Boggles the mind, innit? And does anyone think this woman, while a pediatric resident, would ever have thought she'd be Rambo-- lugging a wounded GI behind a wall while shooting with the other hand?

What would Hawkeye say?

[Avalux]

23. I don't know what the rules are either -

thanks for looking around. All I know is my source was upset by being handed a weapon. It's wrong. They're supposed to save lives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Your source HAD TO QUALIFY with a side arm

for the last 13 years, that is actually part of the Geneva Convention. Heck where I served and a nice little civil war started I actually asked to have my medics qualified and for them to have side arms issued... to DEFEND their patients. They were part of the National Society... the army actually considered it.

Oh and some more reality here... as a MEDIC, no side arm, I was shot far more times than I care to remember

The joke... that red cross is a nice target acquision device, will atract fire every time.

[cynatnite]

28. I was a medic in the army

During basic it was all about being a soldier...AIT it was all about medical care.

When I got to Germany to the clinic, it was all about taking care of the patients and learning how to defend them under hostile fire. Our commander was a doc from the Vietnam days and he would tell us about all the dead and wounded medics.

He told that same joke about the big red cross.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Your CO knew what he was talling about

What bothers me is that people think that because you wear a targ... err a Red Cross on your uniform, that nobody will shoot at you.

Hell I used to wear a bullet proof vest because of the neighborhoods we served, a couple times I just removed it, it woudl hurt less if I were hit (AK -47 fire) if I was not wearing it.

What is going on in Iraq is uggly, very uggly, and we are seeing sytematic violations of the Geneva Convention, but giving docs and medics the abilty to defend their patients is not one of them. By the way medics are now taking to the field with M-4 Carbines, and all their crap...

One of the problems that the original poster does nto realize is... we have not recognized the other side as a legal combatant... may not seem as much... but it is critical. Since we have not, they are free and claer to kill our medics... until somebody recognizes them as legal combatants and they promise to abide by the Conventions.

This is the true bizarro world of insurgencies, and it is a bizarro world... and no this does nto justify OUR violations. As a Red Cross Worker I am disgusted by the systematic way we are violatin them... mostly for two reasons, the lives we are ruining today, and the American soldiers that will pay with their lives in the future for this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Believe it or not, as a medic YOU CAN CARRY A side arm

in order to defend YOUR PATIENTS from any agressors...

That is part of Geneva.

You cannot carry an Assault Rifle though

And no we are not in Kansas no more

Oh and I used to be a red Cross medic, my job was to ENFORCE the conventions.

But if they are now being given AR... they are now valid targets... yuo can carry up to either a nine mm automatic or a 45 ACP since most militaries issue side arms chambered for either.

And yes this is fucked up.

[cynatnite]

29. We weren't trained with side-arms

From the time I got in until I got out, it was M16s.

I was in a medevac reserve unit for a few years and we had empty holsters that we wore. Still no side-arm training. Go figure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Weird, my hubby was a bubble head

and he qualified with 45 ACP up to five years ago, and with 9mm since then every year

[PaganPreacher]

34. Nadine, military medics can carry rifles, too.

The regulation limits medics to "personal weapons" for defensive use, which may be a rifle or sidearm (but not a crew-served weapon, like a machine gun or mortar).

In fact, rifle marksmanship is one of the criteria for award of the Expert Field Medical Badge.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/efmb/information-paper.htm



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[RB TexLa]

32. Whatever my job in Iraq would be....

I would have a gun on me.

I have never been in the military but if I were doing something non combative and placed in a war zone and not given a gun I would find one.

[Mojorabbit]

33. I have a relative

who is a nurse in the AF, an officer. She had to carry a weapon in the first gulf war, in Macedonia, and in Afghanistan and is well trained in them. She set up the mobile hospitals and is a flight nurse too. This is nothing new.