Did Jackie O and McCartney's Wife Have Lethal Injections??

[DemocracyInaction]

Of course they did. I watched the gathering of Jackie's family at her home and the reported conversations. They all came within two days of each other, filing in and out, and then she was dead. You can't call cancer that close. Of course, everyone said their goodbyes and then their money was able to put her to sleep per her whishes. And, that is what happend also to Paul's wife. In fact a few weeks later there was an attempt to investigate the death; but because of his money and pull, it was dropped real fast when he pushed. Point is, they, by their money, can die in dignity. This is denied to the rest of us. We have to wait for the drug companies and the health industry to beat the last few thousands out of our hide. It's time this stupid, living in the dark ages, country grew up and treated our citizens with as much dignity in death as they afford their goddamn pets.......

[mattclearing]

1. Link? n/t

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. Evidence?

As a former cop, I'd say that that's pretty watery soup you're serving.

[mattclearing]

3. Seriously.

On edit, fess up, who recommended this?

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Sure as hell wasn't me.

Take that to the bank.

[H2O Man]

52. It's baloney.

My wife used to direct a hospice program. It is not difficult to determine the final days with specific diseases. The OP is not close to being accurate in any way.

[Fridays Child]

5. I've seen it happen for the not-so-wealthy, too. It's really driven by...

...the doctor, the hospice staff's philosophy, etc. All they do is provide enough morphine so that the patient's care providers can send him or her out when it's time.

[ultraist]

19. Hospice does have that philosophy

Palllative care includes as much morphine as a patient (or the family) wants. There are no limits. Large doses of morphine slow the respiratory and cardiac systems. Hospice isn't as aggressive in that they hook up a morphine machine and complete the process in a matter of minutes but over a few days or sometimes a few hours, depending on the patient, the unlimited amounts of morphine "help" the dying process.

With cancer, certain symptoms occur within weeks/days/hours depending on the patient that indicate the final dying process. They have a term for it. So, it's very believable that Jackie O had come to this point and they knew it would be a matter of days/hours.

Hospice provides care for low income patients and provides all of the morphine/oxycontin or whatever pain meds they want. Again, there are NO LIMITS on the amount. It's as needed.

[serryjw]

34. You are 100% correct......

When the end is near they turn up the morphine drip to help the pain and very soon it is over. They have been doing this for years and no one talks about it.

[Hamlette]

37. many times you don't even need morphine

cut off liquids and death will occur in about 4 days. Without discomfort if the individual is out of it. In my experience that is more common than administering drugs.

[serryjw]

38. WHEN THE END IS NEAR

IT REALLY DOESN'T TAKE MUCH FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

[DemocracyInaction]

6. As a cancer victim----it just doesn't go this smoothly and nicely

You don't have the "family gathers around your bedside and you bid fond farewell" and then drop dead a few hours after they leave. That's why McCartney's wife's death was challenged by the Brits and very quickly dropped (all on CNN, MSNBC news at the time). It was the same process with Jackie O. They all told of talking to her and her dying among the books she loved, etc. Not of someone who didn't even know they were in the room. And then, bingo, dead hours later. These people had the money to depart in dignity...no questions asked. And that is denied to everyone else. Don't believe that they were just lucky to say goodbye, close their eyes and pass on.

[Bunny]

8. Why would the Brits be investigating Linda McCartney's death?

She died in America. What jursidiction would the Brits have?

[liberalhistorian]

32. If I remember right, it wasn't

the British, it was the police and prosecutors in the state where Linda McCartney died. They did drop it after an outcry, and I have no doubt that Paul's money and pull were what caused it to be quietly dropped as it should have been. It was no one else's business and people should be allowed to die in dignity and with little pain, without interference from anyone else, including the authorities.

The British have a far more humane and enlightened view of things, like most of the rest of Europe.

[Bunny]

50. Thanks. but I knew it wasn't the British, I was waiting for the OP

to justify his/her outlandish statement. The CA authorities investigated Linda's death because the death certificate said she died in one place, when in reality she died at one of their other homes. I forget the reason why the incorrect place was entered, but the authorities in California did indeed drop the inquiry rather quickly.

[mattclearing]

10. Please find some support for what you are saying.

Anything. You can't just accuse a former first lady and a former Beatle of euthanasia without any evidence and expect not to be called on it.

Please provide a shred of evidence (like a story about the police suspicions).

Anything.

Otherwise...?

[serryjw]

35. It is not euthanasia, it is standard medical

procedure to give someone enough morphine to alleviate the pain...but at some point the amount kills you. No one will ever admit it, so don't both looking for evidence.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. Again, where is your evidence?

In point of fact, 'letting go' is a well-understood phenomenon, and people "then drop dead a few hours after they leave" all the time. Ask anyone who's ever worked in hospice care.

[ultraist]

41. Hospice doesn't have a written policy on this!

How could they? Ask others who have been involved in loved ones death process. It IS true.

[Cuban_Liberal]

51. Who said anything about policy?

I was quite clearly referring to the phnomenon of 'letting go'.

[KaliTracy]

14. moved post to parent

[ultraist]

20. We knew with my dad he was in the final hours.

The nurse told us he was in the last day with maybe 12-16 hours left. He had all of the last symptoms. Slowed breathing, slowed heart rate, failing liver, numbing of limbs, sensation in skin, water retention, fluid filling in lungs, etc.

[Ilsa]

21. Mottling of the skin is another sign...

And yes, I believe there is a certain degree of will involved. I have heard of alot of people waiting until their closest loved ones have left the room and then they let themselves expire. Either they don't want the loved ones burdened by their actual passing, or they don't want the loved one witnessing any undignified moments, sounds or odors.

[ultraist]

25. Yes, that's what it's called, "mottling of skin"

Both my dad and best friend wanted us there in the room. I also think they had some control over it. My friend waited until her mother arrived, her mom was 3 hours late, and within a few minutes she died.She knew it was happening, as did my dad, and reached out to hold our hands.

My dad waited for my sister to arrive, who was due in at 3 pm that afternoon. Her plane was late and he died at 3:30. (She was devastated but knew he had waited for her as long as he could).

In both cases, it was very dignified. But I have read that some people prefer to be alone, as you noted. NOT ME! I want my loved ones there with me.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Yadda, yadda, yadda. Proof? Documentation? Anything at all??

[barb162]

26. it depends on the type of cancer and how good the MDs are. When

my dad was dying of cancer, the doctors called from the hospital and said hurry up over here, he doesn't have much time. They were right. We got there before he died, like about 10 minutes before as I recall. He was already in death throes though and not aware we were there. It would be nice if everyone could have nice peaceful deaths.

[barb162]

27. I suspect with Jackie K. she took morphine well before the time she

would have died normally. She probably took some sort of dose of morphine either herself or administered by doctors before things got really bad/ugly. I remember the announcement she was really sick and then about 5 hours later they announced she was dead. I was shocked.

[Mend]

7. Bill Clinton's mother died the same seemingly quick easy way

from cancer....she was a nurse anaesthetist who knew how to do it.

[Walt Starr]

9. Poor people can do it too. Only it has to be SMART poor people.

You just need to know a bit about herbology is all.

[chookie]

11. I disagree

While not 100% uniform, there are physiological processes which occur, with regularity, in the final days of life, when someone is dying of a long illness. There are physical symptoms which indicate death is impending, whether in days or imminently. Loved ones can be assembled when these are observed, and a death watch maintained until the end occurs.

It is quite a stretch to suggest Mrs Kennedy and Mrs MacCartney were "euthanized" because of their wealth and privilege. Such an idea would be anaethema to these women, and to their families.

There are strong drugs that are issued when death is near to aid breathing and for pain -- i.e. morphine -- and laypersons are suspicious that they are used to "help things along", but in fact they are used to alleviate unpleasant symptoms and ease uncomfortable symptoms experienced while passing rather than hasten it.

It is one thing to be of the opinion that human beings have access to drugs to end their lives in terminal cases -- it is quite another to list specious "examples" to "bolster" one's case....

[ultraist]

22. exactly!

Anyone who has had a loved one with terminal cancer and was involved in their care, knows this. I've always wondered why people were so hell bent about legalizing euthanasia, when it's essentially done all the time. Terminal patients are given as much pain medication as they wish.

[barb162]

28. I have seen some cases where the families don't believe in using drugs.

I think that is what the legalizing of euthanasia is about.If terminal patients can't make their wishes known but they are conscious, and they have anti-drug next of kin, well, I want euthanasia legalized. I saw a case like this about ten years ago...a truly screwed up daughter who didn't want her suffering mom to have drugs.

[ultraist]

40. That's just cruel to deny someone pain meds!

The other issue that comes up with some, is "God's will." To which my response is, I doubt "God" would want someone to suffer and linger longer in excruciating pain. Although, oftentimes, the few hours before death, they feel no pain. I think this is from the brain is shutting down slowly. They also usually stop eatting and drinking usually at least a day before.

[barb162]

55. I saw it happen. This woman thought she was doing her mother

a favor by not having the drugs administered. You know, this philosophy that it's better to be "clear-headed" and in pain, than to be out of it mentally and free of pain. The mother couldn't talk and her hands were shaking so much she couldn't write so she couldn't tell people: keep me out of pain. There are possibly a lot of deluded "daughters" out there. I also think there was some of the "god's will" stuff entered in the daughter's head.

[idiosyncratic]

12. I always suspected that was the case based on something

John Jr. said after her death. I forget the exact words, but the statement only fit with someone who had chosen how and when to die.

[dflprincess]

17. I think I know what you mean and it made me wonder at the time as well

He said something like "she died on her own terms".

Of course, he could have been referring to her decision to discontinue treatment. I recently read an account of her last days (I think it was in a Reader's Digest at the doctor's office) and, if that was at all accurate, I thought it sounded more like she chose when to die. Not that the article actually said that.

[KaliTracy]

15. I disagree -- my grandfather, DHs grandmother, and a friend of the

family were called "this close" -- in fact -- when my mom called me about my grandfather, and that it wasn't going to be much longer, my boss at the time refused to let me go because he wasn't "dead" yet (I was a waitress at the time, and it was mother's day weekend). My grandfather didn't last the weekend, and I left after getting that call, and stayed away an extra day or so -- but I still wish I had just left when I was told it was time.

Grandfather had cancer -- was at home in hospice care.

Friend of family had prostate cancer -- and was in hospice care.

Grandmother (DH's grandmother) was over 95, and was in hospice care.


** I should mention I was about 3 and 1/2 hours away from where grandfather was.

[donheld]

16. Nice theory but there's no proof

And whether they did or not, what difference does it make?

[BiggJawn]

18. You can always suck a 12 Gauge.

"We have to wait for the drug companies and the health industry to beat the last few thousands out of our hide. "

I wasn't aware that the Hemlock Society had a financial "needs test".

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. Did you stay up for the last week thinking that one up? Here's a tip....

...try not to go for so long without sleep, because you tend to start hallucinating after being awake for more than 36 straight hours.

[LoZoccolo]

31. Only 36?

It's not good to be sleep-deprived, but I think I've done 36 before. That's like if you don't sleep all night and get to sleep on time the next day.

[WillowTree]

29. Gee.

My grandmother had cancer and took her last bad turn on a Friday night. By noon on Sunday, all eight of her kids and every one of her 26 grandchildren who were going to be able to come had gathered from virtually all over the country and she passed away Monday night.

Does that mean that it's obvious that we euthanized her?

Both of my parents died of cancer and both times my out-of-state brothers and their families managed to get here in time to spend a few last days with them before they died.

Does it, therefore, logically follow that we killed them, as well?

You make some pretty sweeping assumptions about the deaths of those two ladies and their families and I'll just bet that you have nothing in the way of proof. If you favor euthanasia and want to make a case for it, that's fine. Go ahead and I'll be happy to listen. But I think it's awfully presumptuous to accuse the Kennedy and McCartney families of illegal activities when you have nothing but supposition to back it up.

[ultraist]

42. Do you know if they increased the pain meds those last days?

Increasing pain meds is not killing someone. It is pallative care, making someone more comfortable.

[WillowTree]

45. Of course I do.

That's not at all what's been suggested in the opening post of this thread.

[ultraist]

49. I see

I think the author of the OP was unaware of palliative care or the symptoms that occur in the final death process that indicate death is very close.

I didn't word my post well and I apologize. I'm really too tired to be posting!

[LoZoccolo]

30. That would never happen to Liam Gallagher's wife.

Score one for Oasis.

[onecitizen]

33. If they did or didn't......

it's NONE of our business. Let them rest in peace.

[woodsprite]

36. When my mom passed,

it was very peaceful and very quick. I was with her the night before until about 2am. She was awake, alert, sitting up sipping water, joking with my inlaws, though we knew it was a matter of time - she had developed DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulation) and could not be treated. She kept insisting that someone was beside me and wanted to know who else was in the room with us. She had been legally blind for years, but could still see shadows/color, but no detail. She reached up and grabbed my ear to turn my head in the direction and insisted it was her brother, who had passed away 3 yrs earlier. I told her that I didn't see Uncle Harry, but that if she saw him, then I wasn't going to tell her that he wasn't there - just that I couldn't see him.

She sat back in bed, kissed me goodnight and patted my hand and told me it was OK for me to go check on my hubby and sick baby. She'd see me in the morning. I told her that I'd be back bright and early. She told me how special it was to have a daughter to be friends with and how proud she was of me and my husband, our daughter and new son. When I got there at 8am, she was in the final stages but was holding on. I talked to her briefly, she seemed to acknowledge that I was there because she reached for my hand. She exhaled a huge breath and she never took another after I held her hand and told her I was there and that my brother and I would be fine, but that she needed to be with Dad now. I sat with her about 10 minutes holding her hand quietly, then called the dr. in to have him check vital signs. Since they knew there was nothing that they could do, they had disconnected all monitoring machines days earlier. We were waiting for release to home hospice care.

When my dad passed, the nurse told my mother to sit quietly with him as the time of death drew very near because interaction with the patient will keep the spirit, spark of life, whatever you call it, grounded to their body longer. He had been thru much with multiple myeloma that was untreatable (like leukemia), she didn't want to keep him here any longer if he was ready to go. I tried to do the same for her after I said my goodbyes.

It can happen within a few short minutes, let alone a few hours, and it can happen in a dignified manner without additional intervention.

[chookie]

39. You and I share a gift

Our loved ones passed peacefully. I live each day in gratitude that we were so blessed.

My Mum was pentultimate stage of Alzheimers, and much other stuff. We knew she was going to pass soon. At one point she requested a private audience with my Dad, and told him she thought lying around sick was bullshit, and asked to be allowed to pass. At her wish, we went from usual treatment to easing someone to death. We had merciful angels from Home Hospice assist us. By golly -- Home Hospice was the smartest thing we ever did. In the Catholic tradition, there is a prayer asking God for a beautiful death -- my Mom mercifully got one.

We knew she would pass shortly. Strangely enough she was cognizant enough to recognize me in the morning before her passing, and she smiled lovingly at me. Some hours later she slipped into a deep coma. Our hospice angels had taught us what to expect at the end of life, and thus we were able to assemble her loved ones around her in time, to be with her at the end. Death is tough -- but *every day* I am thankful that my Mum, and we, her family, had the priceless gift of her peaceful death. There was no euthanasia - only the very best comforting medications to ease her natural passing. Caring in home for someone afflicted with Alzheimers was the toughest thing we ever attempted, and it was brutal, but it ended beautifully.

All that hard work, that toil -- and it paid off exponentially; my Dad held her as she died in her own bed, while herbeloved pussycats cuddled with her, with her dog at her feet. All that hard work, all that toil -- and I still feel unbelieveably lucky....

[ultraist]

44. "only the best comforting medications"

That is palliative care and there is a fine line between that and euthanasia. That is why hospice calls it palliative care. It is merciful to increase the dose as needed to keep them comfortable. But that increased dose, does suppress the major systems.

It sounds like your mum had a very dignified and peaceful passing.

[alittlelark]

43. My M-in-L went out that way through a very kind hospice nurse.

She had Liver/Pancratic Cancer. I suppose hospices are different all over the country... ours was excellent, and knew their stuff.

[ultraist]

46. The two times I dealt with Hospice, they were amazing

I have never met anyone who has dealt with them that didn't hold them in high regard.

[alittlelark]

47. They are the best of the best,

It's like the Peace Corps of medicine. Well, minus the CIA infiltrators.

[ultraist]

48. LOL!

I don't know if I could have gotten through my dad's death or my friend's without them. I was only 22 when my dad died and was taking care of him 24-7 for six months with my sister who was 27. They were so good to us. (This was 18 years ago).

Hospice workers seem to be the most giving people, I don't know how they do it.

[devinsgram]

53. On behalf of hospice workers everywhere, I thank you.

I worked for several years as a hospice aide and you could not find a better group of people anywhere to work with. I have had to give up being an aide because of health problems, but I am now getting my degreee in sociology so I get back into hospice as a social worker.

As far as the original post goes, I remember having a patient that died unexpectantly a half hour after her son and husband left to run an errand. She had breakfast and we sat and talked at the breakfast table. I took her back to bed and helped her get comfortable and the next thing I knew, she closed her eyes and was gone. Up till that moment she had been doing very well. Till this day, I truely believe she knew her time was up and she did not want to put them thru any more grief than she had to.

Working in nursing homes also, I have heard many nurses say the same thing. They have had families sit at their loved one's side when the end was near and sometimes this was for days at a time, but when they left for a cup of coffee or something, the patient would pass. I do believe for some people dying is very personal act.

[Darth_Kitten]

54. Sometimes you can.

With my grandmother they said she would die in a couple of days, and she did. :( She died of cancer. :(

I don't know about the Jackie O and McCartney cases.