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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:52 AM
Original message
Trying to portray DU as a veteran bashing group is
like me saying all of the military is bad because of people like Tim McVey, Charles Whitman, Lee Harvey, and countless others.

Thousands and thousands of Vets served honorably, others did not. It is our responsibility to point out dishonorable acts our own can do, It is not un-American to cast blame upon ourselves. Humans can perform heinous acts no matter what their profession but when we send these young men and women to represent US on foreign soil then we demand the best from them, when they act as criminals then it our duty to want the truth, nothing less.

I find more honor in the soldier that reports a war crime than the one who commits it or stands by while it is being committed, that soldier is the one who has earned my respect.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's true, human beings are scum in general until proven otherwise...
J/K :) OK, maybe not entirely, but you do bring up a good point. No human being is infallable, but at the same time, we should not use that as an excuse when others commit such acts. Americans are just like everyone else on the planet, we can be just as cruel and inhumane, so to point it out is not being against all Human beings, but against all who actually commit the acts.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. and when a soldier is sent
to represent the good in America and commits atrocities then they should be held accountable, hiding behind a uniform after committing a crime is not the answer. For those that want to condemn DU for vet bashing they should really look at those that may have been "bashed", those vets are the ones that are doing prison time right now.

Do they want us to overlook their crimes because they wore a uniform? When they put that uniform on they represented a country, a country that was once great, a country that did not send torturers, masochists, and rednecks with guns. When the military stops using the training it did during Vietnam, i.e dehumanizing the enemy then these killing and torturing of Muslims will stop, the military as a whole is responsible for the dehumanizing of the middle east, just as it did in Vietnam.
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. People get confused....
It's the institution and how it's utilized that's being criticised, not the individuals.

Some folks have difficulty differentiating and get bent out of shape. I grew up in a military town and have heard more criticism of the military by military people than I've ever seen here.

This is not a veteran bashing group; people who think that are just too emotionally wrapped up in it. It's probably all of those stupid commercials they play on TV during football games...don't get me started on professional football.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. LOL that's true...
I would imagine most troops would be considered anti-troop by civilians with all the griping at the officers and shit, in pretty strong language I bet.
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The strongest of language....
and colloquialisms you never even thought of!!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You'd be surprised...
my buddy was in the USMC for 4 years, honorable discharge and limited combat in Somalia. He said there were two things his company did 90% of the time, Game(for some reason they liked D&D) and bitch about the officers.
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. When I lived in Norfolk...
...there was this gaming shop I used to go to called Campaign Headquarters when I was in high school. It was always full of military guys. Ah yes...the D&D days.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I wonder how many of them used it to vent...
Player 1: "I now rolled a natural 20 against the Balor Officer Wilkam."

DM:"That's a critical hit with your +5 vorpal Holy Avenger, you lop off his head, and then clean it out to use as a toliet from now one, it is considered a "Bedpan of Holding" for all purposes of shitting and pissing, congratulations!"
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I never considerd that when I was a kid....
...but that description you wrote brings back memories and is way too funny...."That's a critical hit with your +5 vorpal Holy Avenger."

I just about fell out of my chair. This is way more fun than that F9/11 shit fling.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I still DM occasionally...
Its fun as hell, you don't want to know what happened to the Doppleganger GWB in our campaign. :evilgrin:
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Polymorphed into Orc dung?
Honestly, I havent even looked at a DMG in over two decades. I remember when D&D was three little paperback booklets in a box. I also remember Microgames...namely one called Melee that we used to play with lead figures. We used to play one called Traveller too. Do people still play that?
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TOOLZ Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. There was no such thing as a vorpal Holy Avenger
That's, like, two different alignments of swords you're talking about.

Schooled!
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
8. That sort of statement is either incitement or stupidity.
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 03:42 AM by Spider Jerusalem
Or perhaps both. There are a lot of veterans here, and even more people who are the spouses, children or parents of veterans.

I never served personally. But there's a long tradition of military service in my family. My father was a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy, my uncle went to Vietnam and came back with PTSD and has a host of medical problems thanks to Agent Orange, my grandfather was with Bradley's army in Europe, my great-grandfather was with the AEF in France, my 4th great-grandfather was an officer in the War of 1812 who was killed in battle, my 5th great-grandfather was an officer in the Revolution...so I do, believe me, understand and honor the sacrifices made by those in uniform.

And valid criticism of our current leadership's actions using the military as a tool is no sign of lack of patriotism. There's a name for the sort of blind and unquestioning "patriotism" that those overly sensitive to criticism of the military display; it is called "Nationalism", and history has shown that it is a Very Bad Thing indeed.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Sorry
didn't mean to rile you up, I was only expressing my anger over a recent DU happening.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not YOUR statement, the idea that this is a "veteran-bashing group"
Sorry that wasn't clearer.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I was kinda sure
it wasn't me but I thought the best course of action was to apologize before I angered anyone. With that said I do however hope that what I said angers the person who decided to condemn DU.
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98geoduck Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. "I Support The Occupation Of Iraq,But I Don't Support Our Troops"
You've gotta love the Onion

http://www.onion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4108&o=2


"The U.S. went to war in Iraq to remove an evil and dangerous political adversary from power. Now that we have done that, the American troops must remain in Iraq until the country is a fully functioning democracy, able to spark change throughout the entire Middle East. While I find this obvious, there are still a lot of people in our country who fail to grasp it. I support Bush-administration foreign-policy goals, but I stand firmly against the individual men and women on the ground in the Persian Gulf.

Need I remind the reader that it is our flag, not the troops, that we salute? It is our nation-state, not a bunch of 20-year-olds in parachute pants, that deserves our allegiance. As a patriot and true American, my heart sings at the thought of the Pentagon, and the zealous, calculating measures undertaken by the proud military bureaucracy of this great superpower. I feel a surge of pride when I think about our high-tech GBU laser-guided bombs, capable of carrying a 2,000-pound warhead. I tied a ribbon around my tree for the safe return of our nation's F-16s, because our military aircraft are instrumental to finishing our work in Iraq. And on the back of my car, I have a sticker stating my support for the CIA's ongoing efforts in Iraq."




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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
14. LUDICROUS! I'm a military brat and I would damn well notice if

there were a significant amount of military bashing here. Vetwife is mistaken, perhaps deliberately so.

If my father were still alive, he would be highly critical of this administration and its
military actions. That's not bashing the military but legitimate criticism of the civilians running DOD.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. what she fails to grasp is
those soldiers represent us and our morals, the way we as Americans want human beings treated. When those that represent us kill at will, rape and torture citizens then it is our duty to demand the truth and punishment for the offenders. She has us believe they can do no wrong, did the villagers of Mai Lai see us as liberators or murderers?
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pauliedangerously Donating Member (843 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Maybe Vethusband should try Levitra nt
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