AN UGLY CATCH 22

[chalky]

Sorry, guys. I had this rant buried in mhr's "headhunter" post.
I thought getting it off my chest there would calm me down, but then decide it deserved it's own post.

At our company we HAVE openings and desperately need people with experience. We get people with experience applying for
jobs and and yet we're turning them away. Why? Because of their credit.

I've sat in on some of the interviews. I've heard stories from people who were laid off a couple of years ago and who are just
trying to get back on their feet. They hit hard times and tried to keep up, but they missed a few payments. And yet our company won't hire them because they hit hard times and missed a few payments.

Just about every major employer in our town is running credit checks before hiring, and I am livid about this.
It's not like these people don't want to work. It's not like they just got shiny new Sears cards in the mail, thought to themselves, "Free money!", and ran out and charged up big screen TVs and brand new wardrobes. They were living the AMERICAN DREAM and obeying their president who told them after 9/11 to spend, spend, spend. Or they ran into some medical expenses which dragged them down. Or hell, they were just paying the note on the house, the utilities, and keeping the kids fed and clothed.
And then their job got yanked out from under them and they were left with a pile of bills.

About a month ago we walked a temp out the door. She'd been working with us for a year. She was bright, productive, friendly, and
very happy to have a job after some time of unemployment.
The mistake she made that got her fired? Applying for a permanent job, which gave our company permission to run a credit check.

Our company is blaming Sarbanes-Oxley for this new tactic, but I call bullshit. This whole "If their credit's bad then we don't want 'em" philosophy is just another offshoot of that infamous "Personal Responsibility" craptastic philosophy that the repukes so sactimoniously spew, and this is yet another example of the ripple effect from it that is killing the middle class (and, guess what? IT'S KILLING REPUBLICANS TOO. Since I'm based in Texas, it's a given that a good chunk of the applicants supported **).

[WindRavenX]

1. WTF

Your credit report can affect employment??
Oh I am FUCKED. I'm gonna have so much student loan debt after college :cry: :cry:

[chalky]

4. Not just your job, but your insurance premiums

are affected by your credit. It sucks.

[Just Me]

39. Sounds like the one form of discrimination everyone needs to take on,...

,...economic discrimination. It's one thing to use credit information for purposes of issuing credit. However, if a job is partially dependent upon one's credit history (over which often times one has no control), that is a rather putrid type of discrimination that cuts against all race, creed, color, religion.

And people wonder why there is a growing concern that a class war has evolved in this country.

[Occulus]

45. AND your housing

Lots of landlords perform credit checks these days.

What would happen if there were a credit revolt? If every CC debtholder in the nation decided to say "Stuff it!"?

[UdoKier]

71. People who default on loans are a higher risk for not paying rent.

Landlords checking credit is fair. But a person who misses payments is probably NOT a thief, or untrustworthy, they certainly haven't broken the law, so employers should not be screening in this irrelevant area. (Except in special cases where the employee would have access to large amounts of cash, IE temptation, and the credit report is REALLY REALLY bad, there might be an exception there)

[bearfan454]

63. You have to shop around chalky

We switched to an insurance company that does not do credit checks. The only catch is you cannot have had any accidents or tickets in the last 3 years.

[jbnow]

79. In Michigan it isn't just bad credit

that raises insurance rate. Just a lot of credit activity could do it. When so many people were refinancing lately to get lower rates, some people with no missed or late payments and low debt load suddenly had their car insurance rates soar. This was especially true if they refinanced their house and then got a new car, though some people got that with just refinancing if they applied with several companies for the best rate and so had several credit inquiries.

They are trying to get a law to change this. Crazy. It isn't about risk, it is just about greed.

[Rush1184]

82. Fucking the poor again...

Me thinks me sees a pattern here!

[ultraist]

48. student loans don't mean your credit is bad

Just don't ever miss filing a deferment. You do not want any late pays on your credit. If you don't already, take out a credit card and use it infrequently but be certain you make the payments ON TIME. Same deal if you have a car loan, don't be late.

[WMliberal]

80. bill payment is only 35% of your credit score. A huge college debt will

have a significant impact, especially when coupled with a low income.

[elehhhhna]

57. You're fine--employers will like that...

Probably too broke to have kids any time soon and you're a slave to the lender. Perfect new hire.

[yellowdogintexas]

74. calm down, if you are paying the payments you are OK, in

fact that is good. Bad Credit is not making payments, missing payments
consistently late, etc

hx of bankruptcy, having to foreclose on a house, stuff like that.

[CitySky]

77. fyi

just having a lot of debt won't kill your credit score. the key is making payments - esp. w/student loans, there's often some wiggle room about when you have to start paying, and how much / month. do anything you can to avoid missing payments. good luck.

[DivinBreuvage]

2. dailykos featured a writer a few days back who said the reason for

credit checks, is that the people who are already "in the club" want to make sure that only fellow members "of the club" will be allowed to associate with them professionally and get a slice of the pie.

[BrklynLiberal]

3. Wow! With what the MSM is saying about the credit debt this country is

running up anyone who loses their job will never be able to get another job. Scary as hell.

[chalky]

6. And THAT'S what's really sticking in my craw.

With the way the economy is going and with this growing trend in using credit checks to hire, pretty soon NOBODY will be hireable.

[elehhhhna]

58. Mass b ankruptcy filings. The we'll all be on equal footing credit-wise

and the rules will have to change.

BK doesn't touch your 401(K), IRA, and your house if ya have one.

[punpirate]

5. It's odd indeed...

... but corporations big and small are so risk-averse that they'll do stupid shit like this. To my mind, it's a reflection of the job market--if they think that they can pick and choose, they will.

If they were so short of qualified people that business suffered, they'd change their tune, and quick.

[Cleita]

7. Could I just say something?

I think your company sucks or any company sucks that goes beyond reasonable inquiry when checking out a prospective employee. What is going on today? First everyone has to pee in a cup. Next they question you about your smoking or tell you, you can't smoke, now they are checking your credit history? I mean it used to be all they could ask for was references and verification of employment from your former employers, and if you had ever been convicted of a felony. Anything else was deemed an intrusion of privacy.

I say screw them. They deserve to have no employees. Why do I think these impossible searches for the perfect employee is a ruse to start hire the desperate at lower pay scales and no benefits or even illegals. I mean illegals aren't just poor Hispanics. There is a whole bunch of them from Europe and other English speaking countries with degrees and professions that come over that other border, Canada.

Something isn't right and is smelling really fishy. When employers set the bar impossibly high, it's because they don't want to hire certain candidates. I used to see this all the time like when a fat girl applied for a secretarial position, they would tell her she failed the typing test even when she didn't because they didn't want fat girls in the front office.

Another thing too when unemployment gets high the companies get very particular and I guess they can get away with this garbage. We really need a new labor movement in this country.

[chalky]

8. Yes, my company sucks. The problem is, a LOT of companies...

are sucking. Believe me, I don't work at an innovative place that developed this tactic on it's own. My company is known for being deep in the middle when it comes to a trend, so you can bet that if we're doing, pretty much 75% of the rest of the major hirers are doing it, too. And that's the real problem.
At this rate, no one in Austin will be able to get a living wage.(And yeah, we're actually the liberal part of Texas, so imagine how it is in the rest of the state.)

[Kazak]

9. Totally!

:thumbsup:

[blondeatlast]

35. Something is indeed fishy, and I think you've nailed it.

We've had nursing shortages for years yet have they done anything to increase the respect and the salaries for nurses? No, they hire them from outside the country. I've had numerous hospitalizations, and I'm sorry, the nurses I've had from outside just don't have the knowledge it takes.

I'm on an insulin pump, and a nurse tried to give me an insulin INJECTION, I had to literally fight her off for a while--there was a language barrier. Any nurse who doesn't know what an insulin pump is should NOT be licensed--period.

Note as well how benefits are being drastically slashed, particularly medical.

We are heading for an enormous crisi in this country, and this is just one of the symptoms. How soon until we're asked to sign loyalty oa--oops, my husband was just asked to. He turned the job down, but it was a good one.

Labor must rise again in this country.

[PurityOfEssence]

56. REALLY? Tell me more about the loyalty oath...

To whom was he supposed to swear? What kind of job was it? Where?

If you feel safe divulging it, what's the name of the company?

This is disgusting. Beyond that, it's terrifying.

[lostnfound]

76. A friend of mine, already employed, was asked to sign a loyalty oath

saying that he wouldn't go work for another company in his industry for at least 5 years if he ever leaves his job.

He was an engineer, not high-level, mostly a process engineer at a company that made a special kind of fabric.

They presented the paper with the loyalty oath on it to him at the same time they gave him his wonderful 3% raise.

He refused to sign it, and was given the cold shoulder after that by his boss.

It won't be long before employees are bought and sold..the ownership society.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

96. This is called a "noncompete" clause and is not uncommon in various fields

Basically the company is trying to make sure if the employee leaves then they won't be an asset to their competition, and especially in the scenario you describe, to take trade secrets with him to the competition.

Definitely a good idea to have any potential contract reviewed with a contract law attorney if you are unsure about the provisions.

[ucmike]

103. i worked for a major home builder

in my contract was a non-compete clause that said i couldn't buy real estate within a five mile radius of any of the companies developments without preapproval of a vp or higher. i would've needed a note to buy a house within five miles of where i worked.

[elehhhhna]

59. Foreign citizen Nurses are generally more deferential to the Docs

and NEVER narc out bad practitioners, or ask for raises--so my Nurse buddies tell me. That's why the hospitals love them.

[blondeatlast]

100. Interesting... I've often thought there was far more to it than the

standard "shortage" answer. This just falls into what Cleita posted: perfect little servant types who won't question.

I value good nurses more than a good doc in the hospital setting. They are the ones who actually givve you the care, give you the meds, etc.

My experience was real--and scary as hell. I was very lucky my husband was in the room at the time.

Please do tell your nurses that this frequent hospital patient respects good nurses and makes sure their employers know it!

[Liberal Christian]

68. Hiring decision-making

I think your company sucks or any company sucks that goes beyond reasonable inquiry when checking out a prospective employee. What is going on today? First everyone has to pee in a cup. Next they question you about your smoking or tell you, you can't smoke, now they are checking your credit history? I mean it used to be all they could ask for was references and verification of employment from your former employers, and if you had ever been convicted of a felony. Anything else was deemed an intrusion of privacy.

Believe me, I'm not standing up for the practice of doing credit checks as a test for new hires.

Part of the problem in hiring is that you can no longer do reference checks out of fear of lawsuits. All the old company will tell you is that the person worked there and now they don't. So, because they can't get information the "old-fashioned way," they are reduced to these "objective" tests. It sucks, but it reflects in part the litigious nature of our society.

[Cleita]

83. That's not a legitimate excuse IMO.

Back in my day your ex-boss could give you a horrible reference if he decided he didn't like you. I had one threaten to do so because I quit to take a better job. This is why the reference thing became sticky.

However, stating that a person worked between a certain time and did certain duties and earned a certain wage is not ligitous. If it has become so, it shouldn't have. Also, it is my understanding that if someone was caught stealing and a police report filed, then it could be given as part of the reference without litigation. So I see no reason for other BS methods of prying into people's lives.

I employed people once too and basically I knew that within a week I would know if the person was going to work out. I also knew that I had a 1% chance of hiring a thief, a druggie, or someone who was somewhat irresponsible about being at work in a timely manner. It's the way things are.

I believe the credit report thing is a way of weeding out minorities. It's plainly racist. I spent the morning asking people today if they had a credit card check to get hired, at the market and various other stores and a restaurant and not one of them said they did, but everyone I asked was white.

[SoCalDem]

88. But, did they "know" they were credit checked?

They could have been, and were never told.. Any car lot flunkie, can get an instant credit check on you before you ever sign on the dotted line.. all they need is your personal information...just as you would put on an application..

I worked as an employment counsellor just when affirmative action became law, and our old applications had checkboxes for race. We were told to never again check any box.....BUT...

if an applicant was white we were to just file the application.. if they were hispanic, a "stray" PENCIL mark (made very lightly) was to go on the upper left of the application...
black applicants' applications had a similar mark on the right..

So even the "law" could not really change much.. I quit that job about a week later, so I don't know how their "system" worked out:(

[chalky]

90. And that's why the temp was a temp.

From Cleita's post 83: "I employed people once too and basically I knew that within a week I would know if the person was going to work out."

Once upon a time, the company rule was that all employees were brought on as temps/contractors. We took them for a test drive for six months to a year (or less, if they sucked). If the temp worked out, he/she was encouraged to apply for permanent. The temp had all the responsibilities of a permanent, but none of the protections (which in turn shielded the employer from those pesky lawsuits).

The company was protected from the litigious, the supervisors knew they could eliminate a crappy worker, and everything pretty much balanced out.

This new "test" is useless in weeding out bad employees.

[SoCalDem]

72. Why they do it.

Their rationale is that if someone is desperate for money, they will steal. There needs to be NO proof...just a supposition on their part.

There are many casinos here and they do a massive credit check. My friend who declared bankruptcy was unable to get a job there, even though she was applying for food service. I guess they thought she might steal hot dogs or something:grr:

The genie is out of the bottle, anyone can find out EVERYTHING about EVERYONE these days..

Got diabetes?..sorry no job, you might actually use that healthcare the employer charges you an arm and a leg for..

Got a kid who's sick a lot?..sorry no job, you MIGHT call in sick a lot to stay home and care for the kid.

Got bad credit because you were unemployed?..Sorry no job..you might be tempted to take home post its and petty cash..

Banks and insurance companies are owned by the same companies and share information..so next time you apply for a loan or insurance, be prepared for them to "cross check".. Maybe that chronic illness that you take all those meds for could mean you might not be well enough to afford that loan you are applying for...

[Cleita]

84. See my post #83.

I had an epiphany today and did a little woman on the street research. I think it's racist except against immigrants, who will work for less, not complain and if accused of something will slink away without argument.

Time to bring back the unions.

[Toucano]

10. Bottom line

A credit score or credit report should only be accessible in circumstances of LENDING or EXTENDING CREDIT initiated by the individual. All other access (including marketing) should be PROHIBITED.

It is in no way a valid tool for evaluating job applicants. It doesn't say anything about a person's "responsibility" or "character". It says something about their finances. Period.

Thanks for sharing this.

[chalky]

11. Exactly! Oh, and don't forget the ChoicePoint angle in this--

How many people have been denied a job for false information on their credit report? Or what if you were a victim of fraud that ruined your credit? Oh, you can ASK for a copy of the credit report after you've been denied a job (that's IF you knew that was why you weren't hired), but if something false is on your report and you went through the trouble of fixing your report, I doubt the job would still be there waiting for you.

[gbwarming]

25. Annual free credit reports are coming. Maybe worth a pre-emptive look.

https://www.annualcreditreport.com/cra/index.jsp
You can also get them by filing a fraud alert with any of the three bureaus.
http://www.consumer.gov/idtheft/recovering_idt.html#9

My insurance company says they're charging me more based on my credit score but I can't figure out what on my report is triggering it. that's a real pisser too.

[idiosyncratic]

73. There was a man, single parent, who was the victim of identity theft

a few years ago. He couldn't get an apartment because of his credit report, which was wrong.

It was a very sad story and he and his son lived with different friends for years before an apartment manager let him have a one-bedroom apartment.

He wanted to move, but didn't dare because the credit report still wasn't completely cleared up (at the time of this story more than a year ago.)

[oasis]

13. Sounds like unnecessary invasion of privacy.

[jojo54]

12. This DOES suck, big time

But Chalky, I have to disagree with your comment about NOBODY being employable in the future. The ones who HAVE money will be the ONLY ones who will be employable because they either have the money to pay their bills or they have access to he loopholes.

Another thing that has been a problem is a college degree. My hub has over 30 years experience in manufacturing (most of it on the upper management level) and he's having trouble securing a permanent job because he doesn't have a degree. It could also be his age, which no matter what they say, corps DO discriminate against those that are older in years (he's 53).

I've been saying this for a year now - * is trying his hardest to make this a 2 income society. Let's not forget his little comment last year about the people attending his campaign dinner - the "haves and have mores"!! The thieving refucklican.

[chalky]

14. Yes, you're right on both counts.

The people with money will have the jobs.

And the degree thing...oy. I don't have a degree either and I know what he's going through. Another trend that my company's following--turning what were once non-degree-required jobs into degree-required (that is, the one's they didn't outsource).

It took me a while to catch on to the reason for this one. Then I realized--with the degree-required, they can hire them cheap out of college, work them like dogs, and not pay them overtime.

[Dr.Phool]

28. I worked on a Steel Mill Railroad for 31 years

When I started there in 1971, about half the employees were semi-literate hillbillies, and a few people working for college tuition.

At the time, I'd dropped out of high school, earned a GED and did my time in the Navy. These guys I worked with, after a week's training, knew their jobs and performed well.

Fast forward 20 years. Now you need at least 2 years of college or 5 years railroad experience to be hired. WTF? Why would a brakeman need 2 years college to tie up air hoses between cars, throw switches in the yard, and be able to switch out cars. It was almost so uncomplicated, that a trained monkey could do it.

The trick was, they could hire the college kid as management for one third the cost of a union employee. I remember one day, at the bar, where we all went on payday to cash our checks, and one of the kids hired to be the "boss" of the signal department saw my pay stub. Now this is in April. He said you've already made more, this year, than I'll make for the entire year.

[ultraist]

51. It's just another weeding out process in a "employer's market"

If it were an "employee market," they would be offering people bigger bonuses to come work for them, not using all sorts of tactics to weed people out and legally discriminate.

It's only going to get worse because job growth is lagging and unemployment is rising.

[Cleita]

15. It could be that your husband is being discriminated against

because of his age and the degree excuse is convenient for them. The trouble is that workers have very little protection under the law and employers can pull all these shenanigans and not have to be truthful about it. There really should be labor laws about how much education and experience each job category and profession requires.

[jojo54]

19. I thought there were laws

but it seems the Repugs outsourced those when they let 1/2 of our jobs go to Asia, China or where ever the fuck they went.

Just wondering how soon the ATM cards will be given out based on credit?!?!

[Cleita]

21. There are laws that are against age discrimination.

However, most laws are seldom enforced because they are often too hard to prove and this is one of the ways they get around the laws by putting up fake barriers like the college degree requirement.

[jojo54]

27. That's the truth

and let's not forget that you have to have tons of money to get a lawyer that is good enough to win your case!

[KaliTracy]

22. yeah, 1/2 of our jobs are going overseas, but SS is in danger because

there isn't enough people "paying into" the system.... go figure...:eyes:

[jojo54]

26. Good point Kali

No wonder * is saying that now there are only 2 people supporting 1 person on SS.

[blondeatlast]

36. Every time SocSec comes up I think about that.

I would have thought the rahrah '80s and '90s would have been able to help that. As Cleita says, something is VERY fishy here.

[lonestarnot]

33. People with bad credit not a protected class...sorry. n/t

[KaliTracy]

37. how can one get out of a situation without a job? I understand that if

it's a money handling position -- such as in a bank -- that this might be an issue -- but even feel in that regard it is a thin line. Many people don't even know their FICO number, let alone how to get it (with or without the Internet).

[lonestarnot]

38. It's the law...maybe credit scores should be barred from employer access

via new law.

[ultraist]

53. That is not the point,

The point is, this is not a market geared to protect any employees' interests. Companies no longer need Americans to keep their engines running. They can outsource or hire guest workers.

Labor Unions are shrinking as are any employee rights in general. It is totally an "EMPLOYER'S MARKET."

no edit: This was in response to: People with bad credit are not a protected class.

[elehhhhna]

61. It's his age.

Do a makeover and drop about 15 years off that resume. It'll help.
The degree thing is an acceptable, legally-compliant excuse. Pm me if you need help cutting that resume...

[chalky]

16. Here's an article. As I thought, my company is no trendsetter.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/06/17/pf/debt/credit_report/

"Twenty-five percent of credit reports contain errors serious enough to deny consumers access to credit, favorable loan rates and in some cases a job, a new study said Thursday."

[depakid]

17. errr.... What does Sarbanes-Oxley have to do with

employees personal finances?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[chalky]

18. Now THAT'S the question that's got the whole department up in arms.

We work in accounting and they've made several changes under the "It's all Enron's fault" umbrella. I get the feeling that they just threw the credit checks in for good measure. Lord knows I've combed the internet looking for some reference to credit-checks being required, but no luck so far.

It wouldn't matter, though. They'd just come up with some other rational for it.

[depakid]

23. Hint:

Sarbanes-Oxley is a smokescreen- I can't think of a single reason it would cause a company to routinely check credit employee references.

Maybe certain high ranking financial employees or corporate officers and directors- maybe.

It's an anti-fruad and corporate accounting statute!

At any rate, if your company is turning away skilled workers over something as irrelevant as credit history, they're making a really bad buiness decision... one that may eventually come back to haunt them.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

52. I agree...

Sarbanes-Oxley is a smokescreen- I can't think of a single reason it would cause a company to routinely check credit employee references.

Maybe certain high ranking financial employees or corporate officers and directors- maybe.

That's my understanding of it too. They are lying if they use this as a reason for not hiring or for termination. I don't know what recourse (if any) those people would have in the U.S., but if an employer tried that in Canada they would expose themselves to challenges related to Privacy and Employment legislation.

BTW: SOX applies to U.S.-based companies that operate in other countries. I just left such a company yesterday (starting at a privately-owned Canadian company on Monday... YAY!). When the SOX auditors went around late last year, they sent unilingual American auditors into Asian and European countries where English language skills weren't strong. Hilarity did not ensue. I won't name the audit company, but the phrase "Toilet & Douche" might be a clue.

[Iterate]

20. What is our party doing for us about this?

Thanks chalky,

I know a number of people who are deeply effected by this and the other similar privacy issues. It's terrifying when it happens, partly because the applicant seldom knows why he or she was rejected. The fear of loosing everything just goes on and on.

It's made even worse by the lack of social support by our fellow citizens when things do turn tragic or difficult. The credit card becomes the safety net and ends up entangling the victim in that awful downward spiral. Then the predators move in -bill collectors, tax collectors, loan sharks, and all.

Does anyone have any info on what the Democrats in congress are doing on this issue? I will not accept that this must reduced to a 'right of the employer' argument. There must be a moral/social basis for preventing it.

[Catherine Vincent]

24. This should not be allowed.

Damn!

[WillowTree]

29. This is nothing new.

Many employers have been running credit checks on prospective employees for as much as 10-25 years, most particularly in the banking and insurance businesses, anything to do with finance, but in other industries, as well.

[Nay]

30. This has been going on for many years in the banking, security,

accounting and financial industries. The theory is twofold: first, if you can't manage your household finances, how can you manage the business'? (That one applies to the people who will actually be handling accounting, etc.). Second, if you are always broke and in debt, you are easy prey for blackmailers, offers of money for illegal acts, etc.

I have no idea whether either of these assumptions is statistically true or not. My place of business does credit checks, but it does take into account WHY you are in bad shape, if you are. In other words, if you have a bankruptcy for large medical bills or a long period of unemployment, you are not looked upon as a deadbeat. If you just like to fly to Vegas and flush $$ down the toilet, your judgement will be in question.

[Cleita]

47. This is an egregious invasion of privacy no matter how benevolent

your company is about the information it requires on credit. First, I was in accounting and handled money. My credit was never asked for as a condition of employment. Instead I was bonded. Now maybe the bonding company checked my credit. (I never had any until I got married at the age of thirty-two and I worked a decade before then), but I doubt it. Bonding then was based on whether you ever had an arrest for stealing anything, like shoplifting, passing bad checks, or were fired for stealing.

As for being easy prey for blackmailers, bribes and other malfeasance, because you have bad credit is stupid. If you are irresponsible you will be liable to these problems anyway even if you never had credit problems. I think there needs to be a law against this kind of intrusion into one's privacy. Often people will get behind in their payments if there is a family crisis like illness or job loss and they shouldn't be punished for it by losing their livelihood because they fall on bad times. I think it's an excuse to get rid of more expensive workers to hire lower paying workers with fewer benefits.

In blondeatlast's post above she mentions immigrant nurses being hired in place of American ones. Now surely those immigrants don't have a credit history or employment history that can be verified with a background check. Talk about starting with a blank slate.

[Nay]

75. I agree with you completely, Cleita. I was just pointing out that

it is not new, and repeating some rationalizations I have heard over the years. But people really better start realizing that their whole lives are basically an open book to all these bastards, and it's getting worse by the hour.

As a practical matter, the only thing that will save our sanity and privacy IS a total breakdown of the corporate and financial order. Unfortunately, this will bring a lot of misery as well.

Oh, by the way, the bonding company DID check your credit. And your criminal record with the local cops, state cops, and FBI. Just FYI.

In a few short years, we will all be checked by DNA methods to see if we are likely to fall ill and cost our corporate masters a bit of extra health care money. If our DNA doesn't show us to be perfect, well, we won't get hired. Or we will be fired. And our COBRA payments will be $10,000 per month.We have barely seen the beginning of what these bastards can, and will, do.

[BiggJawn]

31. The new HR myth...

People in HR are engaged in social engineeering experimentation, and they're experimenting on YOU.

My understanding is that they say that employees with bad credit are less moral (because they don't pay their bills like good people do) and thus more inclined to steal from the company, be it embezzle, pad the time sheet, or steal pencils.

that's it in a nutshell. They're not "bad people" (the HR drones) they're just protecting the company.

The Insurance Industry has actuaries that "prove" that people with bad credit are sloppy drivers who don't give a fuck, thus they have more accidents, thus cost more, thus must pay more
....People with bad credit have no power. Money=Power.

It's all bullshit, just like Freud's ideas about women and masturbation...In fact, most of Freud's ideas were bullshit...Not as bad as Jung, but...Oh...that's awhole 'nuther topic...

Anyway, it's HR mumbo-jumbo, pure and simple.

[TWiley]

42. We have a "Born-Again" assistant Preacher as HR MGR.

Before him, our company hired a "corporate psychologist" (whatever the hell that is) as HR, but he got fired for lying.

Like Nazi Germany, or the Stasi of E.Germany, soon one will have to belong to the correct race, religion, political party, and Martial status to "deserve" a job.

Maybe the fundi nut cases are right, and this is actually "The Beast". They claim that "in the last days, you will not be able to buy or sell unless you take the mark of the beast". It would sure be Ironic if "gawds people" were responsible for ushering in the anti-christ, and actively supported his policies.

[chalky]

67. Not to get too off-topic-freaky-religious on you, but that irony was

foretold as well in Revelation.

13:4 "Everyone worshiped the dragon because he had given his authority to the beast. They worshiped the beast also, saying, 'Who is like the beast? Who can fight against it?'
13:5 "The beast was allowed to make proud claims which were insulting to God, and it was permitted to have authority for forty-two months.
13:6 "It began to curse God, his name, the place where he lives, and all those who live in heaven.
13: 7 "It was allowed to fight against God's people and to defeat them, and it was given authority over every tribe, nation, language, and race.
13:8 "All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed."

You know, it's too bad the people who thump the bible don't actually take time to read the thing.

[TWiley]

94. Thanks for the reply.

I did not know that about the book of Revelation. The possibility that (according to their own book) Christians will actually be the evil-doers gives me "faith" in an odd sort of way.

[lonestarnot]

43. You are making excuses for live wreckers! Protecting companies and

not people is W....WRONG!

[Cleita]

50. Well, maybe the day has arrived to start cooperatives.

Get a group of people together to start a company. We have one in our community. Actually, it's a bunch of hippies who sell health food and organic produce, which many of them either grow themselves or that they buy from kitchen organic gardners in the area. All employees are also part owners of the store.

This may be the only way to break the corporate beast stranglehold. There are a bunch of archived threads here at DU about the Mondragon cooperative in Portugal which is a sort of model that can be adapted. One thing about the Mondragon is that it grew under a fascist dictatorship much like we are entering into now.

[lonestarnot]

62. food, religion, water, shelter and battered goods at the root of hegemony

of castigated souls.

[BiggJawn]

60. I'm not "making excuses" for SHIT.

Did I say I support those policies? Fuck no, I didn't.
I'm not excusing anything. I'm just telling it like it is.

News Flash: The "Prime Directive" of ANY HR department is to protect the Company. Period. To believe otherwise is very naive.

All the "friendly workplace" shit they come up with is only to keep the serfs from rising up and burning down Massah's mansion.

[TWiley]

95. Well, that sounds like the truth in a nutshell to me.

It is bound to get worse as the iron grip of the bushtapo squeezes all those who use income to support liberal causes into bankruptcy and homelessness.

[The empressof all]

69. HR is not your friend.

Big Jawn, sorry for going off on a tangent here but I love to take every opportunity to go on this little rant. :) :)


I am always amazed at the number of people who view HR as a benevolent oversee-er of employee rights. It's a lie folks. HR offices are there to protect the corporation.

I personally would never ever report anything potentially incriminating to anyone, to an HR person without contacting an attorney first. Nine times out of ten it will turn around and bite you in the butt. HR is not obligated to protect you. They are obligated however to support the management.

[BiggJawn]

93. That's not a tangent.

You are 100% correct. HR exists to protect the company, and that's that.

I think where most people make their mistake is in thinking that people are the company's best ASSETS, and HR exisits to manage and develop that asset. Wrong.

HR and Corporate managment view their employees as LIABILTIES.

Back "in the day", Henry Ford had what he called his "Psychologocal Department" which actually SPIED on FOMOCO workers to make sure they weren't drinking away their pay, or that the single girls who wound the coils for the Model T's dynamo wewren't "living in sin"...This was the forerunner of today's HR department.

[lonestarnot]

32. More repuke's creation of slave labor! You should not be surprised at

this tactic. Just like don't hire smokers; they cost too much.

[blondeatlast]

34. Thank you--this definitely deserves its own thread.

I had no idea about this. The time has come for strong privacy laws. This is inexcusable.

Thanks again.

[annabanana]

40. nominated....................n/t

[TWiley]

41. Not only "Credit Checks", but I had to submit to a

"background check" after 10 years of employment as well. Everyone had to sign a waver that promised to not prosecute, and there were clauses in there which allowed subjective information to be considered as fact.

I got the cold shoulder when I asked for the auditing companies references. Who are these people? If you are not republican, white, male, Christian, married, 2 children, then they say that your "morals" are somehow wrong?

It was a requirement for continued employment, so I went along with it. I was promised a copy of the report, but I never got one.

[lonestarnot]

44. That was the day to start job hunting! n/t

[Blue_Tires]

46. credit record==the new DNA

[bush_is_wacko]

49. I have suspected this was going on for a while.

My husband was recently hired within days of graduating from college. He has NO experience in his NEW chosen field but is already being told to submit his resume for a manager position after only a few months employment. My husband is a VERY smart guy, but our credit is top notch and the company he now works for openly admits they check credit history.

My husband was told during his interview that this was his "in" job, and the company did not expect him to stay there very long. Obviously, for my family that is great. But it has occurred to me many times that any of those people who were unable to save their finances in the initial small collapse of the economy after 911 would be summarily disqualified no matter how good they were at their job if they had to stand up to the scrutiny of a current credit check.

I'm a miser and I admit it. My entire family is that way, but I don't condemn anyone that gets in a situation where they can't save themselves from financial ruin. Being a miser, I am well aware of how easily that can happen. I have gone without just about everything other than food in order to save money in hard times, so I've been there too. My husband would MOST definitely be in this situation if he weren't married to a miser. He blew every cent he made on crap before I met him and my father was the same way before he met my mother. Our miserly habits have helped them recover their credit. Even my brother had this problem before my mother offered to help him get back on track. His credit has recovered immensely because of it.

If there is any way possible to get your credit back in check, I suggest anyone with this problem do their darnedest to sell off the expensive items they have accumulated and get their finances in order. My honest opinion of the situation is that the economy will not recover any time soon and the slight economic dip in the eighties under bushole Sr. produced many FORECLOSURES. Our current situation is FAR worse than it was back then. I know, I benefited from one of about 100 foreclosures in the neighborhood where we bought our first home. We found the lowest priced home that was in the best condition and we doubled our investment in less than 6 years. BTW, I reccommend AVOIDING companies that advertise they can help you with your credit problems. Common sense can go a long way to correcting financial problems. Just look at tightening your budget as "temporary" for the rest of your life. There will come a time when discretionary income is available to you. I'm still waiting for it but that is why I'm still doing okay after my husbands former employer cut his pay on his 20 year job by 55% and the loss of my income during that a three month period did not ruin us!

Don't be fooled by credit companies that offer you endless credit that you KNOW you cannot afford! The credit companies make money off those that are willing to pay off interest until the day they die and never touch their principle. Figure out what you can really afford and be willing to move down, if need be. Honestly, anyone that requires two incomes just to make their payments is in for some deep trouble. Find a way to make sure ONE salary will pay all the bills you have and then allow the second income to be used for discretionary purposes and savings. I think we are going to need it if our leaders can't control this administration and there are days when I am pretty convinced there is no chance they can control them.

[Kota]

54. Everything changed when Bush got in. I work for an insurance co.

With Clinton it was all about supporting working families,job sharing,day care at work. Now its as few people doing more work as possible. We are even dressing differently. Credit scores determine your insurance rate. The rich get richer the poor get poorer. You could be paying as much as three times the rate, not because of accidents or tickets, just your credit.

[elehhhhna]

55. The kicker: Real scammer have fake ID & credit reports on file.

I ran temps in Chicago for 10 years and guess what? The folks you're trying to screen out for liability purposes have figured out the system.

IMHO, credit reports have MUCH more info on them than an employer should have access to.

And when are employers going to provide full disclosure on themselves to candidates? NEVER!!!!

[YankeyMCC]

64. blaming sarbanes-oxley wtf!

I'm not a lawyer, but I know a little about this law, I work at a bank. But if there are experts here please clear this up if you can.

The purpose of the law is to hold accountable the senior management and executives of these companies and now they are twisting it around to hurt the lowly employee!

Ahh...just what I needed another example of the moral decay (and this is the true moral decay, decadence and irresponsibility at the top not breasts on TV) of America to get me angry or despondent.

[Deja Q]

65. I CAN'T EVEN GET A 2ND JOB SO I CAN REPAY MY DEBT FASTER!!! Cool, huh?

I've known that for some time now. Despicable, isn't it? Only in America.

What else is new.

Unless the job involves accounting or money, there is no rational reason to look up a credit check for a potential employee.

Hell, I can't even get a SECOND job because of my credit rating - and I do want to pay the cards off.

But with the direction society appears to be going, what's the fucking point?

So, yeah, I am starting to really dislike what's going on. I want to do the right thing, but they won't let me. It's stupid, asinine, and damn right I'm angry.

[BigBearJohn]

66. Corporations-run government. Same rule at many companies.

When he democrats get back in power -- and they WILL get back in power -- we MUST legislate against this form of discrimination.

[UdoKier]

70. Well, as I have said NUMEROUS times.

Companies have NO business snooping into your private life.

They are NOT loaning you money, so they should NOT be checking your credit. They are NOT the police, so they have no business checking your blood or piss for drugs.

IF one of their employees is behaving erratically, fire them. Don't punish everybody with intrusive and insulting tests because of a druggie few.

As for credit - it's just ridiculous. Creditworthiness has little to do with trustworthiness.

I hate that American companies have become so intrusive into the personal lives of employees, and I REALLY have that employees have become so complacent and accepting of it, like a bunch of freaking CATTLE.

[shadowknows69]

78. paying rent should improve your credit

I've paid $450 a month on time for 5 years now. does that go on my credit report? If it was a car loan it might.

[ultraist]

85. Most landlords don't report good pay to your credit, only late payments

It's the sad truth. Ask your landlord if he/she will make a good report to your credit, but I doubt they will.

[slutticus]

81. Holy Shit.

I just came back from a site interview and they had me fill out these forms authorizing them to check with consumer reporting agencies before hiring me.

The form specifically stated driving records and criminal records may be checked, but they said ANY consumer reports are fair game. I just can't believe they would do this. WTF does having bad credit have to do with being a good engineer?


What kind of company do you work for?

[chalky]

86. High Tech, just like every other major employer here

in Austin. And that's as much as I feel comfortable saying. Sorry. :-)

[slutticus]

87. Check out what I found on Google.

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/employment-employer/employment-employer-hiring/employment-employer-hiring-checking-credit.html

Also, State Laws for Credit Checks

http://www.hrtools.com/HREssentials/P05_1585.asp

[chalky]

91. Hmmm. I'm definitely bookmarking those.

But regarding this from the federal law:

"A credit check should be used only where the information is necessary for job-related purposes."

I'm wondering how fuzzy an employer's logic is allowed to be in defining "necessary for job-related purposes".

[slutticus]

101. Yeah.

And also, a lot of the state laws seem to have the prospective employee's interests in mind, but the real question is whether or not the HR departments that are doing these checks are following the law.

For example, how many people have been declined because of bad credit but were never told? (they are supposed to be informed and are allowed to see the credit report in question, by law)

[MissB]

104. If the employer issues the employee a company credit card

then maybe that is how they would justify it.

Still sucks, though.

[Lisabtrucking]

89. That makes me think, This must be a good way to find out if you've

been to the doctor's. People usually have outstanding doctor bills because they are the only one's that wont put you out in the street. I know I do.

[scarletlib]

92. dear chalky,

seems to me that this is an opportunity for some overdue media exposure of this problem. I think what happens is that it happens to just one person at a time. Maybe they don't even realize it. But, if a number of people turned down for a job at that company got together and contacted their congress critters and went to the LOCAL MEDIA this could get some air time.

As soon as everyone in an area becomes aware of the problem then you can (hopefully) count on a sense of outrage to arise. Then something might be done about it.

You see, the government, employers can and do pull these neat little scams because the majority of us do not know about it. As soon as this stuff gets brought into the light of day and lots of people are aware things can change.

(PS I used to work for FL state govt in Medicaid division for adults. Believe me when I tell you healthcare is in crisis in this country. But even though people may be aware that some 40 million + in this country have no medical insurance they have no idea of the real crisis because it only happens to one person/family at a time.)

(PPS My co-worker the other day told me she is struggling with this issue. Her business was devasted by 9-11. She was unemployed for a while before getting her current job--at a much lower salary than from her previous business. Now her insurance premiums for her car keep going up because her credit is messed up.)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

97. As others have said, for landlord/mortgage purposes I can understand,

poor credit = risk of nonpayment.

For employers I don't see how this applies at all. At least not in the scenario described.

[toddaa]

98. Insurance company underwriting

I work for an insurance company and the first thing we check in the underwriting process is your credit score. The higher the score, the lower the premiums. Sadly, it's a fairly common practice across the industry. Except for life insurance, that is. A life insurance company wants you to stop paying. The sooner you cancel your overpriced variable or whole life policy, the better. What can't be done is denying you insurance based on your score, or basing your premium strictly on your score. That's illegal in most states.

What I'd like to see is a law that whenever someone accesses your credit report, either for review or modification, you are notified. It should be your right to know who is looking at your personal information and why, and you should be able to contest anything you feel is erroneous BEFORE it is added to your report.

[scarletlib]

99. one last kick

I think it is important for as many people as possible to be aware of this.

[dsc]

102. My sister lost a great job due to this

and it really sucks. I am glad I only had to pass a criminal backround check as my credit is horrid.