Twenty years ago, I was on a business trip to China and one evening

[KlatooBNikto]

in Shanghai, had the pleasure of having dinner with some very sophisticated Chinese people in Business, technology, Medicine and Education. One of the hosts had just come back from the U.S. and I asked him what did you think of our country? He had both good and bad things to say.On the good side, he was impressed with the energy and drive of people, the orderly life and the legal system that protects the rights of people regardless of their station in life.

On the bad side he was taken aback by what he called the exhibitionist and bragging tendencies in our society, two traits that would be frowned on in all Eastern societies.He was quite vehement that sex in such public display would offend Eastern sensibilities the most.Next, he placed the vulgar display of one's own accomplishments, real or otherwise. Even if real, Eastern etiquette called for restraint, modesty and suppression of one's ego. He came away convinced that so long as these traits remain unchanged it would not be difficult for China to overtake the U.S. in a few years.

I was, to say the least, chastened.I developed new respect for my friends in China that evening.Shanghai's transformation in the past twenty years alone stand as testimony to his assertion.

[MrModerate]

1. Now wait. You're saying that China is overtaking us because . . .

Americans display affection in public? And brag about how big our cars are or how we cut the perfect business deal last week?

Whether one is appalled by such behaviors or not, you're going to have to explain lots more before I buy the notion that these are substantial disadvantages in competing with the Chinese.

Now "restraint, modesty, and suppression of one's ego" -- which in a Chinese context translates into suppression of one's self in favor of the powerful few, does not lead to excellence or superior competitiveness. Just more efficient ant farms.

Please expand on your assertion.

[KlatooBNikto]

2. Thank you for your comment.What I meant was not suppression of public

display of affection of which there is plenty in China.The gentleman was saying that even if one accomplishes much, a person is expected to remain modest.It is others who must toot his horn, so to speak.It is by letting others speak highly of you that you gain credibility. There is no dearth of individuality in China.It is the expression of that individuality that is different.The China that I know is never likely to become an ant farm.

[MrModerate]

6. I agree -- the China I know is also unlikely to become an ant farm

-- although I must admit I've not been there for 6 years.

The Chinese I observed (some in Hong Kong, where I was based, and some on the mainland, where I visited fairly often) were a puzzling combination of anarchist and control freak in the same person. Demanding that each other behave scrupulously according to societal norms (not laws, necessarily) while seeking every shortcut advantage over competitors they could come up with. Public behavior DID tend toward a certain anonymity (outside of the entertainment business), but one-on-one they're as individual and grasping as any Americans I've been around.

So I ask the question again. How do lurid sexuality and braggadocio (to exaggerate the characteristics you were mentioning) make us vulnerable to China's "overtaking us?"

[slor]

3. We do have a tendency to brag...

and to see things through our own eyes. I remember when Iraq was being compared to the Vietnam war, and I always pointed out to people that strategically speaking, it is more in line with the Battle of Stalingrad, and that we are the Germans. That usually got me some strange looks. Off topic, I was thinking about learning the Chinese language, how difficult is it? And is their a regional dialect that would be more common beneficial to learn than another, such as Mandarin?

[KlatooBNikto]

4. Mandarin is the dominant dialect.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Mandarin is the official dialect of both China and Taiwan and is

taught in all schools. People who haven't been to school may speak dialects of Chinese that are as different from Mandarin as French is from Spanish. In other words, you can tell that they're relatied, and you may be able to catch a few words here and there, but it would be hard to have a conversation with say, one person speaking Shanghai and another person speaking Cantonese.

The best course of action if you were going to live in China or Taiwan would be to learn Mandarin first and then pick up any local dialects in the community where you settled.

[Bridget Burke]

5. One American strong point: a legal system that protects our rights....

Not only has our economy slumped, but we're losing ground on that "human rights" thing that used to be so important. No matter how much the Chimp gibbers about "freedom."

[sendero]

7. And it is nowhere more evident..

... than in Dallas, home of more $500 a week millionaires than anywhere else in the country.

Every other car around here is a Lexus or a Beemer or a Mercedes. 90% of them are leased, status for rent.

Pride goeth before a fall.

[izzie]

11. Tex. was always a place we had a good laugh about.

It was that they were always bragging about them selfs. When I lived in the middle of them in Alaska it was pointed out to me that to not have to brag about how great you were was, as always, the better road to travel. One of the first things any one does if you say you are great is to try and find the faults, which we all have, and they become even bigger when you swear you are great.

[anarchy1999]

22. I'm sorry, just what is a "$500 a week milloinaire"? Am I naive?

I am confused.

[sendero]

26. Someone..

... who makes $500 a week and tries to look like a millionaire.

You live here, they are everywhere :)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Chinese stopped "bragging" in public....

...about one's accomplishments when the Chinese Communists came to power under Mao. At that point, the capitalist economic form was completely outlawed, and private business owners were either sent to "correction" camps or executed on the spot. From that point on, it was obviously much safer for the Chinese people to keep their mouths shut to avoid any unnecessary and/or unwanted attention.

IMHO, your Chinese host failed to mention exactly where his comments about Eastern sensibilities were coming from. Under Communism everyone supposedly works for the common good...and can be prosecuted/imprisoned for taking credit for any personal accomplishment. Trials are still being conducted by the Chinese authorities against anyone attracting too much attention.

[anarchy1999]

9. For what it is worth: In 1984-86 I worked as a secretary for the Dept

of Physics at a state college. Many of the students then were from foreign nations (mainly China and subsidized by our government). I'll never forget the day that the head of the department stormed into his office after mid-terms exams. He was in a rage because he had caught several cheating and there was nothing he could do.

The university would not let him do anything because of all the money they were getting from the Government to have them (foreign students) enrolled and cheating in their culture is/was the norm.

I'm certain I've heard this somewhere, the Chinese operate on a 1,000 year plan. China will become a "superpower".

[barb162]

14. when I was getting an advanced degree, a teacher caught 3

Chinese cheating at the final exam, hauled their asses out of the classroom and I never saw them again. I heard later he had all 3 expelled.

[anarchy1999]

23. What state were you in. This episode took place in Texas.

University was heavily partnered with TI and gov't operations. As in AI.

on edit:
Also the "super conducting super collider facility in Waxahachie".

What a waste of dollars and individuals.

[barb162]

24. this happened in Chicago

[barb162]

25. all they have to do is rely on our stupidity; we give them all kinds

of opportunities. They steal off our patents and other intellectual property, they do knockoffs and we don't call them on the carpet for it, we will keep sending tech work over there so they can just take it at the expense of our workers (because our corporations don't care about the long term disastrous effect), etc. I suspect in about ten yrs, all we'll be selling to China is agricultural goods and they will be selling all tech and manufactured goods to us. Oh and we educate their people in high tech too. What governement would ever do this to themselves? We as a nation are selling our selves down the river. And we can spend ourselves into oblivion in Iraq and elsewhere. All the Chinese have to do is sit back, watch, laugh and let us self-destruct. China already is a superpower and they have us by the balls financially too

[leveymg]

10. 15 yrs ago, I had lunch with a client and his father then visiting DC.

We met at a Chinese restaurant on K Street, around the corner from where I used to work. It was about this time of year, but warm as it often is in late Spring.

The client and I walked from the office. In the course of working on his case, we had developed a very friendly relationship. As usual, we chatted about politics on our way to the restaurant. The father, whom I had not met, arrived a moment after in a black car. He was in his sixties, tall, trim and tread quietly. The whole room hushed when we entered the main dining room.

After the usual small talk, his son translating, the subject turned to US-Chinese relations and the place of each in the world. He spoke in calm tones about the great advantages to both of a broader trade and diplomatic partnership.

I said that the time of US global dominance was passing, and that this would not be an easy transition. There was much danger for America's partners who might some day become direct competitors. This was during Bush 41.

It wasn't until later that I learned the identity of the client's father. In March, 2003, Zhu Rongji stepped down as Premier of China. At that time, he was Mayor of Shanghai and Vice Minister of the PRC. I recall, he was a very good listener.

[KlatooBNikto]

12. Both Zhu Rongji and Hu Jintao impress me as solid, intelligent and

capable leaders one can rely on. Again, bragging is not their strong suit, as you have noticed with Zhu Rongji.Wish we produced leaders of that quality over here.

[leveymg]

13. "Wish we produced leaders of that quality over here."

We do. They just don't opt to go into government anymore. Wrong reward structure. The nepotism problem has reached the point now where we're in a vicious downward spiral.

The derivative strains in any dynasty tend to be inferior, that's why they need to be prevented or replaced. Democracy was supposed to do the former. Now, we need to do the latter, if we're going to save ourselves and our kids from worse to come. Hard to imagine, but remember Caligula.

That's how all empires end up. Decadent isn't a strong enough word for it.

[ConcernedDemocrat]

15. Interesting story

[UdoKier]

17. I lived in Japan for many years.

And after becoming accustomed to life there, Americans started to look very crass, loud and ugly to me, not to mention extremely obese.

Coming back to live here was a total culture shock. People walking around any kind of place in shorts and flip-flops while drinking a Double Big Gulp, and talking incessantly about THEMSELVES.

After 4 years in Florida, we were finally able to move to San Francisco, and a major reason for that choice was the fact that SF is about 40% asian, and we could find a neighborhood where we could both feel more at home. I LOVE it here, love my old Chinese landlady, and the Chinatown a block from our house where we can get dim sum and groceries dirt cheap.

The values you cite mostly stem from Confucianism and are common to Oriental cultures. (I say Oriental, merely to differentiate from the meaningless word "Asian" - Oriental, "touyou" in Japanese, refers to the cultures which use chopsticks, chinese characters, and whose cultures are deeply infused with Confucianist philosophy - specifically China, the Koreas, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam... The Philippines and India are in Asia, but are not really Oriental cultures)

[porphyrian]

18. Eastern societies are more sexually repressed than us?

No wonder they put such a low value on the life of the individual.

[DulceDecorum]

20. Those people know more about sex

than can be discussed on a public message board.

The oldest sex manuals in the world can be traced to China, more than two and a half thousand years before the birth of Christ. Huang-Ti (2697-2598 B.C.), the legendary Yellow Emperor, has been regarded as the originator of the traditional sex practices and beliefs. The ancient "Handbooks of Sex," composed nearly five thousand years ago, anticipate anything produced in the West by well over two thousand years.

Shy they ain't, but
they DO get a room
and shut the doors and windows
before commencing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. From what I have observed, China's strengths are as follows:

1. A high regard for education as a means of upward mobility. This has been true for centuries, since even under the imperial system, any young man of whatever social class could take exams for government jobs. The Cultural Revolution, when the schools were closed for ten years, was a mere blip in Chinese history. Even the early Communists encouraged peasants to go to school.

2. A strong mercantile tradition. One reason that China developed so fast after Deng Xiaoping came to power is the overseas Chinese. They live everywhere in Southeast Asia and dominate the economies of Singapore and Malaysia and are a significant presence in other countries. With strong ties to their ancestral regions, they were easily persuaded to invest. Within China itself there was a strong business tradition, and forty years of Communist rule were not long enough to wipe it out.

3. Nationalism. The Chinese are proud of their 4,000 years of history and believe that it's only natural for them to be a world power. They are willing to work hard to achieve that.

There are also some significant weaknesses:

1. Development has been extremely uneven, and the loss of the Communist safety net means that people now have to pay for medical care, schooling, and other services that the state once provided through the work units. You get people living as luxuriously as any in the world a few blocks away from shanty dwellers who survive as "illegal immigrants" within their own country.

2. Not everyone in China is Han (the majority ethnic group), and the minority groups, especially the Tibetans and Uighurs, are not happy being subordinate to the Han.

3. If you want to see what the U.S. would look like without environmental laws, go to China. Once you've breathed air that you can both see and feel or have seen people swimming in lakes that smell like a combination of sewage and a chemistry experiment, you'll think the EPA is a very good idea.

4. Their one-child policy is going to lead to demographic troubles as their society grays faster than any in the West. They've eased up, but there's still that generation born in the late 1970s and 1980s that is going to be responsible for supporting four grandparents. In addition, due to sex selective abortion and abandonment of female babies, there are going to be millions of men who cannot find wives.

5. The government is riddled with financial corruption on all levels.

[Hamlette]

21. the devil made me do it

as the devil's advocate I wonder. . .

if our ego driven society has made us overachievers which is not always a bad thing. Although this is a republican talking point I don't think it is entirely bogus. China is a "collectivist" culture, the good of all is more important than the good of a few. Sounds good on paper but I wonder how it translates to capitalism.

I was suprised to hear Chinese tell me how insignificant they thought freedom of speech and of the press were. Not high on their priority list. They were totally into making money and owning thier own apartments, cars, cell phones.

I think that capitalism might require exhibitionism and bragging tendencies. Granted, it need not be as crass as here (I'm thinking what a great model Scandanavia is.)

Shanghai is a great example in building. When I was there in the mid 80s they had one building over 5 stories high. It was 11 stories high. I know because it was included in our tour! ("visit shanghai's skyscraper") When I was there last, in 1997, I counted over 100 "realy" skyscrapers from my hotel window. But most of them were vacant.