"Death is defined by the cessation of brain waves..."

[leftyandproud]

"Why don't we define life as the BEGINNING of brain activity?"

I was asked this in a mini-debate today and was kinda stumped..

Scientifically, it seems we *should* define life this way. I'm guessing babies start to have independent brain wave activity after 3-4 months in the womb. I know this was just a trap a pro-lifer was trying to set for me so I ignored the question.

How would you have responded?

[Book Lover]

1. Death is a process

that includes the cessation of certain types of brain activity. The start of life is not a mere reversal of that process.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. I'd ask how he qualifies to be alive then since he appears to have none

It's actually the irreversable cessation of brain activity and that is in an individual who was previously able to survive outside the womb.

BTW...by his definition...since the "legal" definition of death prompts a death certificate..he just argued against himself since the "legal" definition of birth would assume a birth certificate and we don't issue those prior to birth.

[politicaholic]

3. Because the brain is essential to keep the body alive...

In developement the brain does not sustain the body until the 5th month.

[Maple]

4. Good question

I'd be interested in knowing when it begins.

[DrWeird]

5. So he's saying, if the fetus doesn't have a brain it's OK to abort?

because that's the case with many "partial birth" abortions.

[leftyandproud]

6. she is probably arguing vice versa..

once the brain can sustain the body (age 4-5 months), abortion should be prevented.

[DrWeird]

7. And what if the fetus doesn't have a brain?

acephalacy, I believe it's called.

[leftyandproud]

18. I'm sure that is very rare

probably .000018% of births

[DrWeird]

20. about 1000-2000 cases of anencephalcy diagnosed per year.

About 95% are aborted. Of the remaining 5%, 55% are stillborn, the remaining die within one to two days.

I'd like to know what that "brainwave" idiot thinks the numbers should be

[Spinzonner]

8. Carl Sagan (and probably others) publicly proposed the

criteria of recognizably human brain waves as a criteria for permissable abortion by choice. I don't remember the details of the article anymore; it might have been in Parade (Sunday supplement) magazine.

While its a rational and objective basis, I don't think it will satisfy the human-at-conception crowd.

[Goldmund]

9. I thought pro-lifers thought the beginning of life was at the time of...

...conception?

This is just an argument for banning late-term abortions, not abortions in general.

[Vladimir]

10. I would have informed it

that:

1) As a man, my opinion on any matters regarding abortion should not be taken into account.

2) A baby cannot exist outside the womb, and while one places ill people on life support all the time, society has no right to force a human being (the mother) to be that life support machine against her wishes.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

19. Perfect answers. Similar to my 'host organism' argument below. nt

[Maple]

11. Do we have a known time?

Is it the 5th month?

[Maple]

14. Hard to get a straight answer here

Sigh

[Az]

12. Actually we do

The usual cutoff point for voluntary abortions is about the time that the brain develops enough to start producing recognisable activity. Although we are not certain when sentience arises from the brain it is a likely indicator after significant activity has started in the brain.

And incidently its not when life starts. Its when it is distinguishible as a human being. Life started billions of years ago. Since then it has been one unbroken chain of life continuing life. Sperm and eggs are arguably alive. Their combination is just the continuation of that process begun billions of years ago.

[Eric J in MN]

13. There is a difference between

merely having brain waves, and having brain waves to an extent to feel human emotions.

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

15. Death doesn't require a host organism as part of the deal...

Also, this is a classic efungelical line...just type fetal brain waves into google and you'll see the same BS repeated over and over on the antichoice pages.

[wadestock]

16. Brilliant post

I thought at first you were going to proclaim Bush was dead.

The entire debate about abortion is a grand distraction....which the FREEPERS sit back and gloat about because they feel they have the trump card.

Truth?

There is no freeper that has any more humanity than any other person on these or any other issues affecting our humanity...as a matter of fact on average they have far less humanity....they are frauds...

They would be the ones raising dogs for profit, figuring out ways to make profits on any number of schemes that might involve "selective" interpretations about pain or use of animals.

Abortion is simply a convenient issue for them on which they can build a puedo-morality base.

[Warpy]

17. Why should it make a difference in a matter of self defense?

And why doesn't someone we already know is living and thinking get to decide what happens to her own body?

None of this philosophical "when does life begin?" stuff holds a whole lot of interest for me. I honestly don't give a rip, because it's only opinion, anyway. What I do care about is reproductive slavery for people we know are alive.