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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:13 PM
Original message
Why can't US go socialism ?
National health care, free higher education, living wages...what gives?
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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. Too many rich evil capitalists wanting to keep the status quo...n/t
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. What he said
Edited on Sun Feb-13-05 12:18 PM by Catch22Dem
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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. We already went Fascist...
It'll be harder now than ever to arrive at Socialism.
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two gun sid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, you better start educating people about....
democratic socialism. I bet if you went and asked any of your neighbors why they don't join you in supporting socialism you would be getting a visit from Homeland Security. People have been taught that socialism is communism and so it is evil.

I'm with you though. I'd take socialism over capitalism any day.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. I wouldn't even describe what you want as 'socialism'
social democracy, perhaps - I think for proper socialism you would be talking about communal ownership of businesses.

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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. We already have it.
Corparate Socialism: Where the costs of doing business and all possible losses are paid for by the people as a whole (the government), while any profits are privatized to the individuals who run and own the company (in that order).
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. What you're describing is not socialism
The above is social capitalism, or capitalism with a human face.

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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. Because we are conditioned to despise "socialism"
and "communism", and many Americans see those terms and immediately think "enemy." There is also, of course, a strong tendency to think that small governments are better than big governments. Essentially, the American dream is to do well for yourself and screw everyone else, which doesn't match with any socialist policies.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. 150 years of anti-socialist propaganda
yet, the ruling class allows enough socialism to prevent a revolution in this country. Thankfully, Emperor Bush is not interested in doing that, preferring to dismantle what little socialism we had, and giving the American people pure capitalism in all of its cruelty and brutality.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. We don't have to get rid of a free market to have health care, edu,...
and living wages. Nat'l health care is a social program, fee higher edu is already available in CA (we could do it in every state) and living wages would simply be raising minimum wage.

That's not socialism. That's simply proper spending of OUR tax dollars.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. good post, I agree
Better spending of our tax dollars and a more progressive tax system (instead of the regressive one we have now) could go a long, long ways to paying for national health care, free pre school for all children, improved public schools and a whole lot more.
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Is Sweden practicing socialism? Why can't US learn from them?
- One of the world's highest life expectancies

- An extensive child-care system that guarantees a place for all young children from 2-6 years old in a public day-care facility. From ages 7-16, children attend compulsory comprehensive school. After completing the ninth grade, 90% attend upper secondary school for either academic or technical education

- An extensive social welfare system, which provides for childcare and maternity and paternity leave, a ceiling on health care costs, old-age pensions, and sick leave among other benefits. Parents are entitled to a total of 12 months' paid leave between birth and the child's eighth birthday, with one of those months reserved specifically for the father. A ceiling on health care costs makes it easier for Swedish workers to take time off for medical reasons

- After 3 years of legal residence, immigrants may vote in county and municipal elections, (but not in national elections)

- Eighty percent of the Swedish labor force is unionized; wages are set by collective bargaining
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. capitalism hates our freedom
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Over fifty years of anti-Communist hysteria also tarnished the word
"socialist," partly because the Soviets always referred to their allies as "socialist countries."

I recall that when I was in high school, we had some debates in speech class, and one topic was "Resolved: the United States should have a socialist government."

The "pro" side had done their homework, but the "con" side simply assumed that their opponents were advocating Soviet-style Communism and argued against that, much to the frustration of the "pro" side, who had something more like Sweden in mind.
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. That's too bad
What if the 'pro' side change the word to 'Swedenism'? Would the 'con' side react differently?
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. "Where's the profit in that?"
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Placebo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Why can't we stick with Capitalism?
Edited on Sun Feb-13-05 04:10 PM by Placebo
:shrug:

It's not the government's responsibility to solve all your problems, and it couldn't if it wanted to.
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flobee1kenobi Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I don't think putting our lives
wallets and health in the hands of corporations is the answer either!

when it comes down to our health or their profits-what do you think they will choose?
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I don't advocate for the gov't to solve my problems
Edited on Sun Feb-13-05 07:05 PM by ultraist
In fact, I don't have any financial problems. But what I do advocate for are social programs that create equal opportunity.

Equal opportunity is a core value of the Democratic Party.

It's IMMORAL that 35.9 MILLION people live in poverty and that 45 MILLION people are without health insurance.

Liberty and justice FOR ALL!
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. Maybe not all problems but social problems sure.
Lots of great things I can think of that the government should do.
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xpat Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. Last time I looked,
I was the government. So, the government solving my problems is the same as me solving my problems with a little help from my friends.

If you are convinced that the government is some maleficent force that is out to get you, get involved and change it. It's true, that our government has been taken over by our biggest enemy, the corporate oligarchy, so let's take it back!

We don't need to let the corporate oligarchy steal what we have fought so hard for - public education, the 40-hour week, health care, right to organize, our human dignity as working people.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here's a wonderful essay on what you are describing
As welll as the only way it would ever happen here, a national strike.

This was written by a Dane... It's long but he really describes how far sighted their system is, and in the long run more efficient.

http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. LOL
It seems that they really know how to make excuses!

"They don't think 5 weeks is enough for their round-the-world vacations (since one week is usually used for their Christmas vacation and another week for their skiing vacation).

So now they want 4 weeks for their summer vacation alone (since - as they rightly claim - it takes at least one week to get off the jet lag when going around the world to Thailand/Vietnam, Australia or Latin America - so that "lost week" doesn't count as real "quality vacation"!!!)"
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Wake up Americans
"while 23% of American children grow up in poverty, the similar figure in Europe’s welfare states is only 5%."
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. I just finished reading it
Thank you for the link. It's really an eye-opener!
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You are quite welcome
It seems to me that they are much more on target with this society thing than we are, better on the family values too.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Great read, I saved it.
nt
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Socialist points of unity
The following are the points of unity published by the Debs Tendency of the Socialist Party USA. Fellow DUer MSchraeder can provide you more info about the SPUSA, of which he is a member. While I fully agree with the points of unity listed below, I am not a member of the SPUSA.

Points of Unity

Debs Tendency of the Socialist Party USA

Download a hard copy of the Points of Unity (requires Adobe Acrobat Reader)

Adopted: January 4, 2004

The Debs Tendency is a political tendency in the Socialist Party USA. The primary task of the DT is the development of the SPUSA as a revolutionary democratic socialist political party of the working class. The mission of such a party would be the defeat of capitalism and capitalist rule, the establishment of a democratic workers' republic, the abolition of the old system, which rests on class antagonism and minority rule, and the foundation of a new society without classes and without the tyranny of capitalist private property. The Debs Tendency is organized around the following points of unity:

1. The working class is the only class that, as a mass social force, can lead humanity toward a classless, socialist society. Because the working class has nothing but its labor (skilled and unskilled) to sell in order to survive, and because it is the majority class, it holds great potential power and its liberation means the liberation of all humanity. Nothing in society can run without the working class. It is this power that gives the working class the ability to transform society. The victory of the working class is the vehicle by which all classes will be dissolved and a classless society brought into being.

2. The liberation of the working class is the responsibility of the workers themselves. A political party of the working class is the most advanced and conscious recognition of this responsibility. A party of the working class does not stand above or otherwise apart from the class as a whole, but represents in organizational form its most active and conscious elements.

3. The working class needs its own political party, with a program that expresses its collective interests independent of the parties of capital. This independent party is the political expression of the interests of the working class, and fights for the liberation of all oppressed people. A party cannot represent the exploiter and the exploited, the robber and the robbed. A party that attempts to represent the interests of all classes, or more than one class, can only, in the final analysis, really represent the interests of the ruling class because all other classes are based upon the subjugation of the working class.

4. A socialist party of the working class is organized primarily for political action, both in the streets and through the ballot box. The ballot box is used by the party to present a socialist alternative to the ruling class parties, press for radical reforms and advocate social revolution; it assists in and allows us to gauge the development of political consciousness. The party holds in contempt vote-seeking for the sake of votes and office-seeking for the sake of office.

5. Since the working class transcends national boundaries, socialism must be international in order to achieve and maintain a classless society. The working class has no "homeland," but rather holds an internationalist bond that creates an identity that transcends all other divisions and necessitates the development of an international political movement to strengthen this bond and provide the most organized means by which workers can challenge global capitalist rule.

6. Workers have no common "national interest" with the capitalists, and that is especially true in times of war. We call for the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of all combatants of all of the contending powers, the fraternization of troops of belligerent powers, and united action to transform capitalist war into class war and the fight for socialism.

7. For more than half a century, the capitalists have not fought wars between themselves (although they may do so again in the future), but have waged a continual and bloody campaign of terror and violence, often under noble pretenses of "democracy" and "humanitarianism," against so-called "Third World" countries and anti-imperialist movements. However, imperialism has been and is guilty of supporting and propping up the most vile and repressive regimes that can be found as their proxies -- as long as they were "anti-communist" (today, "anti-terrorist"). We categorically oppose all such interventions and demand imperialist hands off. Where such attacks take place, we demand unconditional and immediate withdrawal of all imperialist forces. We support the right of the peoples of these countries to resist attacks and attempts at occupation, and the right to overthrow regimes that collaborate with imperialism and oppress their people.

8. Socialism and the classless society can only come about through a transition period, administered by a democratic workers' republic, based on radically democratic assemblies, that break down class antagonisms, organizes production in a way that will provide for all, advances scientific, technological and cultural development, and aids the extension of socialism around the world. The machinery of a workers republic must be based on the principles of democratic elections and decision-making, the immediate recall of all elected officials and that no official will receive a wage greater than that of a skilled worker.

9. Capitalism cannot be reformed into socialism. Reforms under capitalism can be enacted, but they are, at best, measures that can only be kept through constant struggle. Nevertheless, we fight for the most radical and democratic reforms possible. Such reforms provide immediate relief and improvements in the conditions of working class struggle, and the fight for them points toward the understanding that it will take a complete social revolution to set humanity on the path to a classless society.

10. Democracy is not an abstraction, devoid of class content. Even the most democratic capitalist republic still exploits and oppresses. This is because democracy is limited to the political arena, and is kept out (by force, if necessary) of the economy. A democratic workers' republic is the only form through which democracy can be extended to all sectors of society (political, economic, cultural, social), and thus genuinely represent the interests of the majority.

11. Socialism will come about on a wave of democratic renewal. That is, the earliest phases of the transition from class to classless society will appear as a sweeping democratic revolution, which breaks down the barriers between politics and economic, cultural, and social relations. However, a democratic revolution cannot be separated from, and must develop into, a social revolution, or else it will stall, degenerate and ultimately lead to defeat.

12. No section of the capitalist class can carry out fundamental democratic change, because they have a class interest in preserving undemocratic economic and social structures. No section of the so-called "middle class" -- independent producers, self-employed professionals, small shopkeepers, bosses with the power to hire and fire, etc. -- can fulfill democratic tasks to their completion because they, too, are beneficiaries of undemocratic structures. Only the working class, at all levels and of all types, can carry democratic renewal to its completion, by extending it to all aspects of society and transforming it into a socialist revolution.

13. Capitalism maintains its rule through the instrument of the state, which is the collection of armed forces (police, military, etc.) into a centralized power. In order for capitalism to be replaced, these bodies of capitalism's agents must be dissolved or disbanded, and replaced by bodies of workers' defense forces, fully accountable to the new society.

14. Class-based exploitation and oppression are not the only ways capitalism maintains its control. Additional forms of exploitation and oppression based on race and nationality, gender, sexuality, age, religion, ability, etc., exist as ways that capitalism keeps the working class, and human society as a whole, divided. The fight against superexploitation and superoppression is key to the victory of socialism, not a distraction or impediment. Indeed the fight against superoppression has its own validity -- before, during and even after the victory of a working class revolution. Socialism and a classless society cannot be fully achieved until superoppression is completely rooted out and ended for all time.

15. Unity of the working class demands systematic work in mass organizations and other groups where they operate. Workers' political parties, labor unions, cultural/ recreational groups and mass movements aimed at progressive change are schools where workers can learn how to administer their own affairs. However, it will take socialist political leadership in these organizations to allow them to develop to their full potential.

16. The American socialist movement is fractured and weak, and could re-emerge as a strong movement through regroupment. A single, unified multi-tendency revolutionary democratic socialist party is the most effective means to advocate socialism and overturn capitalism. Open dialogue with groups, organizations and parties committed to revolutionary democratic socialism is a step toward a united left front, like the Socialist Alliances of Australia and the UK, en route to a single party, like the Scottish Socialist Party.

17. Socialism will not be achieved spontaneously, without political direction and goals. Socialists utilize concrete demands that correspond to the objective needs of the working class, and bridge the gap between demands that stem from the daily struggles of working people, on the one hand, and the concrete tasks necessary for establishing a democratic workers' republic and socialism, on the other.

18. A socialist political party of the working class must have the widest possible internal democracy and transparency. Every member of the party has a vote on every matter of importance, specifically on the party's constitution and platform. Party members must be allowed to discuss and debate openly, including in meetings and in the pages of party publications. We affirm unrestricted right of party members to form political tendencies and caucuses for the purpose of influencing the party membership. At the same time, when the party makes a decision, it should not be seen as the end of the discussion; it is the opening of a new phase of debate, as action on the basis of democratic decisions is carried out by members who support it.

19. The unity of a political party is based on unity around political principle, not top-down administrative decree. Unity on political principle develops through education, discussion and debate. Thus, political education is essential not only for building party unity, but also for facilitating discussion, genuine democratic functioning and debate. Educational programs and discussions are necessary for a better understanding of the world, and for enriching the politics of the party.

General acceptance of these points of unity, in word and deed, is necessary for affiliation with the Debs Tendency of the Socialist Party USA

http://www.debstendency.org/pointsofunity.html
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ckramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. By what means to achive your goal as follows
"The mission of such a party would be the defeat of capitalism and capitalist rule, the establishment of a democratic workers' republic, the abolition of the old system"
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Mich Otter Donating Member (887 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
27. National Health Care Points
I keep hearing people say it is better to rely on the "Free Market" for health care. My answer to them is; the free market has had hundreds of years to come up with ways to cover everyone and has come nowheres close to doing the job. Only in the countries that have national programs are all the people covered.
I also hear that the Canadians have NHC and they come to America to get their health care. Then, I point out that the Canadians vote in higher percentages than Americans do, the Canadians see how our system works, and they don't vote for the candidates who would end their national system. If their system is so bad, why do they keep it? I know they are constantly trying to fund and fix parts of it, but I see no sign they want to end it. I believe the Canadians have a stronger sense of community than we have in America, as do many people in other nations also.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Hi MichOtter!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. Nice sentence structure!
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
33. Capitalism is tyrany of need on the individual
Socialism relies on the tyrany of society on the individual.

The problem socialism runs into is the inefficiency of production and distribution. Due to these inefficiencies the balance has to be made up by the indidividuals of the society. They are compelled to make up the difference for the need of the society.

But there are always going to be members of society that for whatever reason are unwilling or unable to keep pace. And thus a slow leak develops in the system. Eventually the leakage gets folded back onto the participating individuals resulting in a feed back loop.

Until such a time as we develop technology that can make up the loss of effeciency socialism has a critical issue. On that note though technology is heading in the right direction. Fabrication techniques and bio technology may make it possible in the near future to move us away from the tyrany of need.

The problem in this can already be seen though. Just examine the furor over peer to peer music sharing. The means of distribution has been handed to consumers in this market. But the Corporate interests have already declared war on this method. Any such method of making life easier for people will be fought tooth and nail by Corporations that derive their sustanence from our needs.
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