Crunching the numbers for our minimum wage earner, Sue, Part II

[Bouncy Ball]

I’ve made a few changes to the original “let’s crunch some numbers for a minimum-wage earner” post to make it even more realistic. Millions more people have fallen into poverty since bush took office. Feel free to make suggestions as to how to make the numbers even more realistic, especially if you live in the south and/or have raised a child by yourself while working minimum wage.

Sue is 18 years old and makes $ 5.15 an hour working at the Tea Tree Plant in Dallas, Texas. That's minimum wage. Since they don't want to give her benefits, she works there 39 hours a week. (That not giving benefits thing is NOT unusual.)

So she makes, before taxes are taken out, $ 200.85 a week or $ 803.40 per month (remember that's gross income, not net). She also has a SECOND job, making $ 5.15 an hour at the movie theater. She works at this job 20 hours a week (from 6 to 10, Wednesday through Saturday).
That means her total monthly income, before taxes are subtracted, is $ 1215.40.

Her one bedroom apartment at the Carrier Arms is $495 per month. The only bills that are paid with that are water, sewer and garbage. She has to pay:

Electric: $ 80 month
Phone: $ 35 month
Car insurance: $ 80 month
Gas (car) $ 60 month

(Since it was generally agreed that these figures are realistic, even a tad low, especially for the Dallas, Texas area, I am keeping most of them the same. Again, she does not have cable, internet access or credit card debt of any kind. I would have her give up the phone, but how does she get calls from potential employers about interviews with no phone? I did change it to a cheap cell phone, though. And just to make people happy, though it’s pretty low, I took $ 20 off her car insurance. That’s very unrealistic for this area, but ok, whatever. She’s still not going to be able to make it.)

So far, the total is $750 per month.

Now let’s add in some other necessary expenses for living.

She has a five month old baby. The father has been missing since the baby was four weeks old. She named him on the birth certificate, but no one can find him.

Groceries (food AND toiletries, such as soap, dish soap, toilet paper, laundry detergent, toothpaste, deodorant, shampoo, etc. Let’s also throw in quarters for the laundromat into this item. And throw in sanitary supplies, and condoms so that she doesn’t have another child.)

$ 150 (that’s with her eating on $25 a week and the toiletries being the other $ 50 per month. We are assuming she is clipping coupons, shopping loss leaders and sales and buying store brand items, otherwise this would never work. I’m not sure it will anyway with all I threw in there, but let’s say she’s some kind of Miracle Shopper.)

Now her monthly budget is up to $ 900 per month.

For anyone who is unfamiliar with areas with no public transportation—well, we have no public transportation. A few suburbs of Dallas are connected to the DART bus line, but they tend to be the more expensive areas to live in. She lives in one of the cheaper suburbs, on the south end of the city, where DART buses do not run. She works in the same suburb. Without a car, you get nowhere around here. No joke. So she has to have a car. Since most in poverty don’t just have
$ 3000-$4000 laying about to buy a used car with, she buys a car on time. She gets a lease, since the payments are the lowest she can get (purchase plans have higher payments). She leases a small car with relatively good gas mileage for $ 185 per month.

So add: car lease payment: $ 185.

Now her total monthly budget is $ 1085. I would put her car lease payment lower, but I honestly cannot find much in the ads in the paper for lower than that, that isn’t a used car with 80,000 miles on it and such. Also, since she has virtually no credit, her payment was higher than someone’s would be with good credit. She didn’t have to pay a down payment, either.

Now for the child, then we’ll average in costs that are very real, but don’t necessarily occur on a monthly basis:

Full time daycare in the Dallas area, CHEAP daycare, might run her about $300 a month. (Please note I took OFF $100 from the first time I wrote this. That’s $75 a week for a full-time infant.) That's using an unlicensed home daycare provider. So she’s taking her chances, but what else can she do?

Her total is now: $ 1385. (BEFORE TAXES, HER INCOME WAS $ 1215 and I haven’t even figured in diapers, formula, clothing, car maintenance or other items!)

The neighbor in the next apartment watches the baby for free on the evenings she works at the movie theater.

Diapers: $ 60 a month, and I really think I’ll low-balling this because when our daughter was an infant, TEN years ago, it was $ 50 a month and we didn’t buy the brand name diapers.

Formula: $ 60 a month (again, same thing). She cannot nurse without pumping breast milk, since she works almost 60 hours a week. Even the cheapest breast pump is a good $50. Then there’s also bottles to buy, no matter which way she goes.

Now we’re up to $ 1505.00.

I still haven’t included clothing and shoes (Goodwill stores, thrift stores, and garage sales), oil changes every three months or 3,000 miles, tires and tire rotation, car repairs that aren’t covered under warranty, registration and license fees for her car, stamps to mail off bills, and a myriad of other items that occur all the time.

Also, please note I included nothing for extras, such as a movie rental, purchasing any kind of electronics, or putting any money into savings. It simply isn’t there.
I’m not sure how much she would have left over per month after taxes on $ 1215.40 income, but I am going to conservatively estimate she’d have $1000? Which would mean she is $ 505 short every month WITHOUT considering clothing and all the other things I put in that paragraph above.

So let’s say she’s $600 short each month (averaging out those other expenses over 12 months).

Now you might say, what about food stamps? What about WIC? Let’s look at that: according to this website http://www.dhs.state.tx.us/programs/TexasWorks/foodstamp.html#grosslimits she JUST barely makes the cutoff to receive the Lone Star card, Texas’ version of food stamps (she better not receive a raise!). (Household size of two, gross monthly income limit of $ 1354, net monthly income limit of $1041.) She would receive approximately $ 274 per month in food stamps! YAY! No near-starvation for her! Now she’s only $ 326 short each month!

Now let’s say she also qualifies for WIC. http://www.fns.usda.gov/wic/WIC-Fact-Sheet.pdf This means that $ 60 worth of formula each month is now not a worry, and she has an extra $ 20 in food costs paid for, as well.

(By the way, unless I’m mistaken, food stamps do NOT pay for toiletries, so she’s still on her own on that. But the food stamps and WIC has freed up enough for her to afford toiletries.)

Now she is “only” $ 226 short each month.

HUD funding has been cut by bush, and the average wait for a section 8 housing voucher is anywhere from 19 months to over two years. Good luck to her on that.

I hope this demonstrates so far, to everyone reading who might have any doubt about the need for programs such as food stamps and WIC, that they are an absolute necessity. Even WITH these programs, I don’t see how she and her child is going to make it. I looked for information on childcare assistance programs in Texas, but didn’t find anything. Last I knew those were around when Clinton was in office, but I haven’t heard anything since. Even then, it was hard to get. Some rare employers offer childcare assistance, but not hers and certainly not to a non-full time employee. I also looked up transportation assistance in Texas. Nothing that I could find, and I’ve never heard of that.

I also hopes this at least makes people think about what a crying shame minimum wage is. If she gets a raise, she loses her food stamps, so the raise would have to equal more than what she gets in food stamps per month.

I'm starting to understand taking AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children, or welfare) and being able to actually see your kids when they are awake. Also, if she quits both jobs and takes AFDC, she will definitely qualify for Medicaid for her baby. As it is, I'm not entirely sure she does.

If we WANT people to work, to be contributing members of society (and I certainly do), then we have to stop tying their hands so badly when they do work that taking welfare is actually the MORE appealling option. You CANNOT bitch about welfare AND work against raising the minimum wage and be ok with offshoring and outsourcing jobs all at the same time. You simply can't. It doesn't work.

She will receive the EIC on her taxes and probably a decent refund. But that’s once a year.

Without medical coverage, how does she pay for the doctor or prescriptions?

IF she meets the low income eligibility requirements, she can get Medicaid for her child but not herself. Without that, though, she's up a creek without a paddle. She will be one of the many people who present themselves and/or their children at ERs with no insurance.

A child who isn't taken to the doctor when they are sick tends to have school absenteeism problems. School absenteeism tends to lead to a lack of success in school. Which tends to lead to dropping out or barely graduating. Which tends NOT to lead to college. Which means they are more likely going to work the same kind of dead-end minimum wage jobs as their PARENTS did.

EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED IN SOCIETY. Too many people seem to think "Well, I got mine, we're fine, what do I care?"

They don't see how the county hospital, which runs on taxpayer dollars is having to use more and more of those taxpayer dollars as more and more people without insurance show up. They don't see how kids without medical care tend to be kids who have school problems and that kids who have school problems don't TEND to end up with high paying or even good-paying jobs as adults.

They DON'T SEE THE CYCLE and they don't see how it DOES affect them.

They also don't see how, in the "greatest," "richest" nation on the planet, no woman should be going to a second job worrying about her five month old being left with a woman who falls asleep with a lit cigarette in her hand because she HAS NO OTHER CHOICE for day care. No child should have a simple ear or sinus infection turn into pneumonia in both lungs in the world's "greatest," "richest" nation. No one should have to choose between paying the electric bill, the rent or feeding their kids.

And the saddest part of all, they don't see how, with all their chest beating about being Christian, they are doing all this to "the least among you."

"And Jesus wept...."

[Warpy]

1. If she's really, really lucky

She's found a two bedroom apartment to share with another single mom, and they work opposite shifts. In that case she may make ends meet, although there's still the problem of where to park the kid when she's working that second job.

That's the problem, you see. The right wing and a lot of left wing males seem to think motherhood is a self indulgent hobby, and you can just stick the kid into a drawer while you're at work, take it out to play with it when you get home. Once you've got them, you can't send them back where they came from, either.

Your budget also left out what happens when that kid is sick, even if she's lucky enough to find subsidized day care or an understanding relative. She not only has to miss work, but if the kid is really sick, she's stuck paying an ER or pediatrician's bill up front because she's medically indigent. She'll also be charged three to five times what an insured patient is charged because that's how the medical profession is cost shifting these days, onto the backs of those least able to pay so that insurance companies won't get hit too hard.

If she waits a little too long to take her kid in for an ER visit she can't afford, she risks being charged with neglect and having her kid taken from her.

You can judge a civilization by how well it takes care of the young, the old, the sick, and the poor. I would say we're back to savagery in the US.

And I hate it.

[Bouncy Ball]

3. I've said your last line many times.

You can tell the character of a society by how they treat the oldest, youngest, sickest and poorest among them. We are failing MISERABLY in that regard.

As for her kid and getting sick, thank you, another thing I left out. I was was young and a mother, but I was married and we both worked. Even at THAT it was hard.

What will happen is she won't pay the ER bill (what exactly will she pay it with???). So then her credit will suck. Which will make things even harder for her.

As for the childcare, been there, done that. If the baby is only mildly ill, you take them to daycare anyway, hoping no one notices the runny nose or cough before you take off (isn't that awful?). It's that or lose your job.

If the baby has a fever or is vomiting or has diarrhea, it's a lot harder to do that. And many regular daycares will NOT take a baby that has a fever. They have to be 24 hours beyond a high temp. Public schools are the same way.

So she has to call her employer, explain and beg to keep her job. If she's lucky, she will. But too many times (chronically sick kid) and she won't.

What about if her kid has asthma or allergies? Kids like that get respiratory infections a lot (I know, mine did and does).

Thanks for bringing up that angle I hadn't considered. The job/daycare/sick kid thing.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Bouncy Ball]

61. So go find her one.

And one that can live with her in a one bedroom with her baby.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[Bouncy Ball]

63. Ah then I guess you'd have to talk to YOUR president

bush about that, since he doesn't have a problem with it (illegal immigration).

Another problem is outsourcing and offshoring of jobs. America's biggest export is jobs.

Plenty of people don't have roommates. She has a baby. She lives alone. Big deal.

So your "solution" is she should find a roommate? Instead of, I don't know, maybe actually getting a living wage so she can SEE her kid every now and then?

Having or not having a roommate is NOT her biggest problem.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Bouncy Ball]

71. You didn't blow her budget.

She doesn't have a roommate. How hard is that for you to understand?

Why don't you start a rommmate locating service for the poor?

[amazona]

78. roommates don't save money, they cost

In the end we all have to learn from our own bad experience that roommates run up the utilities, especially the phone, have phone sex with Russian supermodels and Tarot readings from Miss Cleo, eat all the food in the refrigerator, smoke in the same house or even the same room with baby or allergic person...and then they never bother to pay their half of the rent anyway.

Roommates don't work. Setting up situations where poor people leach off other poor people wastes our time with lots of infighting amongst ourselves instead of freeing us for working for actual change.

This reminds me of the thread where the poster said her mother would have just asked her family and friends for a hand-out in an emergency. Oh please. If your emergency plan is hitting up family/friends for cash on demand, you will soon be without the family/friends in question. Poor people are in relationship with other poor people and for our own survival we have to learn to cut off those who ask for cash "loans" that can never be repaid.

It gets back to the famous story of the crabs in the bucket pulling down the one crab that finally gets a chance to reach the top and escape...

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Pooka Fey]

73. I have GREAT Roommate stories. FUNNY & I'll never get another roommate.

There's the room I rented in a house with people who I found out later were dealing & using cocaine. And another renter in the house would blast his stereo so loud it shook the walls of the house. I moved.

There's the room I rented in a different house where one of the roommates got mad at me for having my boyfriend sleep over several nights a week (even though he NEVER saw this guy), so he bashed in the doorknob to my room with an ax, so I had to get in and out of the room I was paying for through the window. I moved.

There's the roommate (not a boyfriend) I had who was always late or behind with his rent money, he was always eating my groceries, and always sponging gas money off me - so I had to kick him out but then I had to move too because I was too broke and maxed out on credit cards from paying his expenses to afford the rent for even one month while I looked for another roommate.

I rented a room from a guy who owned a house - the house caught on fire one day when I wasn't even home. The fire dept came and put it out quickly, and after their investigation they said the fire was caused by spontaneous combustion - the homeowner had a vat of fertilizer that he had left baking in the sun for weeks until it just set his house on fire. This guy repeatedly accused me of being responsible because I had a friend who was a smoker. The fire department had combed the fire scene there were NO CIGARETTE BUTTS around & I wasn't even around when it happened. I moved, but not because of that.

Let's not forget the ORDINARY roommate issues like NEVER DOING DISHES, NEVER CLEANING, LEAVING THE BATHROOM IN A DISGUSTING CONDITION, BRINGING OVER REALLY CREEPY FRIENDS ....

I have had a couple of decent roommates, but at this point in my life it's too much of a crap shoot for me to tolerate the uncertainty. A good roommate is a rare pearl.

[JerseygirlCT]

75. Not to mention the ongoing cost to society

when the children raised in these conditions have little chance to thrive. Once they're old enough, they're latchkey kids (at far too young an age). Their responsibilities at home mean little time or energy for school work. They get shunted to the worst schools in the system, since the good ones are in the wealthy burbs. And so, we have another generation trying to subsist on ridiculous wages.

It's almost impossible to do the right thing and to get ahead under these conditions.

Such a mess we've made!

[Clark2008]

2. Let me just say, I make a little more than twice that

I am a single mother.
I don't get child support (long story - I'm due it, but...well, long story) from my ex husband.
I can't afford medical coverage for myself at work (that should change. I work for a small company and one of our former employees buys our COBRA and has tons of real medical problems, but our rates are so high because of it and our small size, I can't afford it right now. That will change this summer when she goes on Medicare). I buy my son's medical insurance through a student pool at $62 a month (not bad, really).
I have a $500 house payment, but I'm owning my house. Still, in my area, rent is about that much for any reasonable two-bedroom apartment. Houses are twice that in rent.
No car payment, but I will need one in a year or two, just on the averages.
Cable - yes, the only commodity I have. But, it's basic and bundled with my telephone - $70 a month.
ISP is free (from work), but it's dial up, which leads me to the cell phone - $38 a month. Basic no frills. I also work away from my son (duh).
Electric/water is, on average $132 a month.
I'm in debt for a new H/AC unit ($3,000)
I have $1,500 in credit cards (had to fix the roof and, because it leaked, had to get moldy carpet up and replace it). I do have excellent credit, however, so my interest rate on my cc's isn't that high.
$150 a month in child care (and people wonder why I don't move away from my red state, but, alas, Grandma care - the dough is to help her, she's not rich, either - is cheaper while I know I'm getting the best care possible in my absense).
$300 a month in groceries.
$70 in car insurance. I could just get liability, since the car's paid for, but, if it got stolen or totalled, I'd be SOL. I could at least put a down payment on something half-way decent on my blue book value. I live in a town where a car is a necessity. Public transporation is an afterthought.
I got back a bit from EIC and Head of Household.

But, guess what?

I make all my payments and have no money left to save. Period. None for my retirement, none for my kid's college education.

This is real life, folks.

BTW, I have a college education. There just aren't good-paying jobs out there anymore. And, if there are, they're not stable.

Crunch those numbers, too. I cannot imagine having to live on minimum wage when twice that brings only a bit more stability in your living arrangements (I can own a home vs. renting), but little future financial planning.
I just LOVE those asshats who tell us to put $500 a month back for retirement and college educations. :eyes: Like I can do that.

BTW, I rarely eat out, go to the movies or socialize. I rarely have the money to do such "splurging."



P.S. You didn't figure in clothes, haircuts, incidentals you would need to keep any house, like cleaners, toiletries and the implements. Dirty homes spread germs - keep 'em clean and it cuts down on doctors' visits. And no one must ever go to work unkempt, lest they lose their job.

[Bouncy Ball]

5. Even though you have twice "Sue's" income

you also own a home, which means you are responsible for repairs and replacements to it.

Which means you probably had to buy a washer, dryer and fridge. She has never had to buy those things.

And you mentioned the roof and a/c.

So while it IS nicer to own a home, it's a give and take. You've got those inevitable repairs to think of.

Our neighbors need $ 9000 worth of foundation repair done BADLY and they can't afford it. They both work, but they have two kids in college and one in high school and are barely eating as it is.

They are considered middle class, if you can believe that. They gave up cable three years ago and none of them have cell phones.

[Clark2008]

9. Correct.

I made the point that I was owning my own home, which is a good thing. I have equity and stability that "Sue" doesn't have.
But, along with my doubled income, I have home repairs.
Have you guys thought of holding a neighborhood party of some kind to help raise the funds for the neighbors?
Maybe we should all start leading by example.
I know that I give my son's old clothes and toys to charity rather than have a yard sale because I know there are people worse off than me, for example.
Perhaps we Dems need to show the world what Jesus REALLY would have done.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Eh.

The neighbors are also die-hard bush lovers. For three years leading up to the election, we (all their friends) tried to talk to them, to show them how a Democratic president would make things better for them (she's been laid off twice in two years).

They are very hateful and bigoted. They think the war is great. Told me they don't care that Iraqis have been killed. I'm not kidding. They make jokes about "towel heads."

It's kind of hard to have sympathy for people who VOTE for policies that hurt all of us.

We used to have potluck dinners to help them, I re-did her resume after she got laid off once, I helped their son get into college with a letter of recommendation and helping him with his essay, coaching him for the SATs (I'm a teacher), I've picked up their younger daughter from school countless times when they couldn't.

Guess what? They never give back. Not that I'm looking for that, but I started to notice after a while all they do is take.

[Clark2008]

22. I see what you mean.

Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek. It's very hard to do when you see that the behavior is effecting us all.

I know my neighbors supported Bush in 2000, but I'm not so sure this year and didn't ask. They are big "sign-putter-outters" and didn't have one up this year. Their son, who's a little older than me, lost his job and hasn't been able to find work and he's also college-educated. I think they held their nose and voted - and that was for either, Bush or Kerry.

But, they are lovely neighbors. And help me whenever they can. I can't do much for them, but I do have my son go visit (that's a treat for older people, really, to have a little one visit) and my step-Dad helped them with their lawn when they were ill. I send over preserves and homemade bread and such when I can.

[ultraist]

19. Property taxes, property insurance, maintenance

Those items renters don't have to pay for. )I know you mentioned 3k in maintenance costs on your home).

BTW, that mortgage is unreal. In my area, that mortgage would cover a 60k house and there are no decent houses in decent areas for that price.

The average price of a home is $190,000. My point is, many people don't have the opportunity to buy and there's no way they can save a down payment which is usually 10% of the cost of the home.

It's a shame that so many people are working and doing everything they are supposed to, but still cannot get ahead.

[Bouncy Ball]

21. The only reason we even own a home is because we have a

VA loan, because my husband is a veteran. Which meant we didn't have to come up with a down payment. We would have been saving a LONG time to do that.

[Clark2008]

29. Oh, believe me, I know!

Everytime I get fed up and tempted to move to a "blue" state, I look around and realize I'm paying next to nothing for a two bedroom (three, if you don't use the third as a den, which I do) on an acre of land in the city, convenient to most everything!
The average home here is probably about $100,000 to $120,000. My home is older, but sturdy (1954) and had some major remodling before I bought it (thermal windows and vinyl siding).
I have learned how to be extremely frugal and, while I have more than "Sue," I am not "getting ahead," so to speak.
One thing about where I live that sucks, however, is our sales tax. I'm in Tennessee. We don't have an income tax, but we have a horrific sales tax. 9.25 percent on FOOD and CLOTHING, even!!! That hurts the working middle class and poor here and they just don't get it!

[ultraist]

35. That is high for sales tax, ours is 7%

But we also have income tax.

Sounds like your house is a great investment! I think they should eliminate sales tax on food, that really hurts the poor and increase taxes on luxury items.

If someone can afford a 60k luxury vehicle, they can afford 10-12% in sales tax.

[eridani]

43. House repairs are a problem, but--

owning a washer and dryer is WAY cheaper than using a laundromat over a given 5 year period, and takes up far less time.

[Clark2008]

44. Oh, yes.

And I bought refurbished ones.
Both were $250 and I've had them five years.
No problems.
Frugal... I tell ya... FRUGAL. :)
I do need a stove, though. The eyes work on the range, but the oven is messed up. I have to turn it off and on to adjust the temp. control! LOL!

[ultraist]

68. LOL!

You know, we may disagree on Edwards and Clark somewhat, but I do really enjoy your posts!

[Blue-Jay]

4. She didn't get "gussied up" enough to find a sugar daddy.

It's her own fault.

[Bouncy Ball]

6. My mother did that

as a young divorcee with two kids in the 70s. I told this story in the other thread, but since she couldn't afford cosmetics, she'd go to the cosmetics counter in department stores and use the sample makeup to get ready for dates.

She married a man who made plenty of money but was a horrible alcoholic and still is to this day (he barely functions). She's had a miserable life all around.

[Blue-Jay]

8. I was only making a little joke.

Apparently it wasn't funny. My mom married a similar kind of guy, and ended up raising three kids by herself. Your OP was very poignant.

[Bouncy Ball]

10. Oh I knew you were joking.

But some women do try to marry their way out of poverty. Well, especially back then. She used to tell me she was going to "find her a rich guy." And she WAS gorgeous---blonde hair, green eyes, petite, peaches and cream skin. People used to tell her she was prettier than Doris Day. Almost Grace Kelly-ish. Yeah. So it wasn't hard for her to get dates, even with two little anklebiters.

When my future stepdad arranged for her to have a credit card and started giving her money each month, she decided to look past his blackout binges and married him anyway.

So she married a man who beat her children. But hey. We weren't hungry anymore.

[Clark2008]

42. Bouncy, just so you know

And I hope it give you hope.
I'd rather move to a hovel full of love than marry someone who beat my kid.
I pity anyone who harms my child. I would kill them.
I'm sorry your mother put you through that, though, I hope you don't blame her. Women seldom have the opportunites of men, even in this day and age - and I'm sure not back when your mother was raising you.

:hug:

[murray hill farm]

7. Great job on the redo!

I think you have really captured it this time...i wish everyone in the country could read it.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. Thanks mexico.

I'm wondering what to do with it. I still think it needs some re-organization. Put all the money figures in one spot, then explanations after that? It needs to flow better. And I'm not sure who to send it too. It's far too long for an LTTE.

Wonder if I should send it to Dean? Some Senators?

[Ms. Clio]

11. Nope, No DART buses in my Dallas suburb, either

And Arlington, TX is the largest city in the country with no public transportation. Last time Arlington could vote for a modest bus system, the local news featured some of those good Christian Texans basically saying poor people simply shouldn't live in Arlington if they couldn't afford a car.

[Bouncy Ball]

13. God, I remember that.

Hello neighbor! I am also in a Dallas burb with no DART, though I think you are more of a Ft. Worth burb, right? Heck, Arlington's so big, I think of it as a city on its own, actually.

So you know what I mean when I say LITERALLY no car, no getting ANYWHERE.

You might could walk to the store or something, but have fun doing that in July.

[Ms. Clio]

17. Nope, I'm south of Dallas, we probably are neighbors

I was just using Arlington as an example of the sort of Christian logic that is particularly apt to be employed here in the Lone Star State.

There's really not even a store close enough to walk to, except a convenience store.

I have actually tried to imagine what I would do without a car out here in the burbs, and felt myself start to panic.

[tavalon]

52. I think it would be better

to put quotation marks around that form of "Christian", kind of like how I put Fox "News" in quotations so it's clear that it isn't.

[Ms. Clio]

56. yes, that's probably right

I would edit if I could.

It just makes me crazy that there is a big new church on every other block around here, but precious little real Christian charity.

[Clark2008]

15. So, poor people are to live where?

How disgusting.
I hear it everyday, too. "MY taxes are TOO high...blah, blah, blah."
People just don't understand that a well-cared-for society is better productive and CHEAPER in the long run. Provide folks with preventative care and we all don't get higher rates from defaults on medical bills once they get VERY sick and THEN have to go to the VERY pricy ER.
Give folks food stamps to buy healthy foods. Want to know why poor people, on average, are more obese? Because good food is more expensive, excepting vegetables. But a pound of chuck full of fat feeds more than a half a pound of steak, for a cheaper price. Doritos are cheaper than a square meal.
Happy workers are also more productive.
Happy parents are better parents. Worried parents can become abusers and lead to crime, which costs us more. The cycle goes on and on.

What fools, these neo-cons.

[Bouncy Ball]

20. Yeah, I didn't even bring in the angle of crime.

But anyone with three brain cells to rub together can read that whole long thing and EASILY see how either she could be the victim of crime or she could turn to it herself.

And you GET the interconnectedness of it. So many people don't. We do not live in a vaccuum. It's easy to convince ourselves that the working poor don't affect us, that the chronically ill don't affect us, that those without health insurance don't effect us, that the unemployed don't effect us, but they DO.

republicans seem to think if you ignore these problems, they'll go away. Or if you cut off funding for badly needed programs, the problems will magically disappear. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[ultraist]

28. Aside from the humanitarian component, the fact is: pay now or more later

in clean up expenses. Crime control, prisons, drug rehab, unpaid medical care (the state picks this up for hospitals), homeless shelters, foster care (it costs 60k per kid in foster care), etc.

An ounce of prevention!

[Ms. Clio]

24. I'm not sure where they thought the poor were supposed to live

As long as it was somewhere else. I believe there were also racist undercurrents to the statements, too.

Complete idiots, unable to perform any sort of rational calculations about the social benefits to everyone.

[ultraist]

33. 24% of blacks in poverty, 8% of whites are in poverty

3x as many blacks live in poverty. What does that say? I think it says quite a lot about lack of equal opportunity.

But, since there are far more whites, 44% of all in poverty are whites.

National poverty rate is 12.5%
35.9 MILLION people live in poverty

[Ms. Clio]

37. I wonder how that compares to figures from the past

in relative terms. For example, what percentage of people lived in poverty in the 1950s, when this country was affluent and working class people could actually afford to own new cars and homes?

I think those are really sobering numbers and they could wake some people up. But nobody ever hears them--not in our "librul media," anyway.

[ultraist]

70. It actually was worse pre welfare.

Food stamps began in 1964 and other social programs followed. Now, in real numbers, there may be more people due to population growth but if my memory serves me correctly, the poverty rate was at it's worse at 22% (that may have been the Great Depression).

Social programs have reduced the poverty rate. Another reason not to eliminate them.

I will keep my eye out for that info.

[Ms. Clio]

81. I think in the 60s the poverty rate was something like 10%?

So it definitely seems to be increasing, just at the time the compassionate conservatives want to cut those social programs.

And according to a book I read, More Equal Than Others, "the U.S. in 1994 had the highest poverty rate of 16 developed countries. It had the second lowest (after Canada) rate of escape from poverty. And American tax and financial transfer systems reduced poverty by less than half as much as provisions in Western Europe, Australia, and Japan."

[ikojo]

74. Another thing that is not brought up when people pine for the '50s is

that a greater proportion of the workforce was UNIONIZED (I think it was around 30% of workers were in UNIONS). A union member earns more per hour than a non union member, particularly when benefits are part of the equation.

I make it a point to drive this home when people at work talk about what good pensions their husbands will have and how they (the wives working at the insurance company) will have to work long past the time their husbands retire with a nice UNION provided pension. Somehow they are still anti union and vote republican!

When Bushco and his supporters in the pug and Dem parties talk about how wonderful thigns were in the 50s I don't think they understand the important role a heavily unionized workforce and generous government benefits, such as the GI bill, played in creating the 1950s middle class. That middle class was able to send their kids to college in greater numbers than ever before.

[Ms. Clio]

83. Unions made a huge contribution to the affluence of the postwar era

They were exactly the reason people like the Detroit auto workers were able to afford homes and send their kids to college. The corporate tax rates were much higher, too. And the GI Bill propelled many veterans into the middle class.

I think the real historical comparison is the 1890s. It's no coincidence that Karl Rove models himself on Mark Hanna, the guru who spearheaded the election of business-lovin Republican McKinley in 1896, with enormous amounts of voter fraud in that election, too. The same year saw the end of the Populist movement.

But we need another one, desperately.

[Massacure]

16. A single person who works 60 hours minimum wage shouldn't have a kid.

Especially at 18 years old. I don't mean to sound cruel or anything, but that mother got messed up. Of course the sex-ed in Texas is also probably messed up.

[Bouncy Ball]

18. I don't get what you are saying here.

Yeah, the sex ed is that abstinence only crap. The fact of the matter is, she DOES have a kid.

And if minimum wage were higher, she wouldn't have to work 60 hours a week. She could see her kid when he was actually awake.

[ultraist]

23. Just change her age to 21.

She still would earn min wage because she could not afford to go to college.

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Oh I see what he's saying now.

I agree with ultraist. It's a hypothetical person (though based on very real people). So just up her age if it makes you feel better.

Say she got pregnant at 20. Birth control failure. It happens.

[Warpy]

26. Yeah? Have you tried sending one back?

Or are you one of those guys who thinks abortions should be forced on poor women? Or perhaps you're a paragon of virtue who has never lied to get a woman into bed.

It's a helluva lot cheaper in the long run to give abandoned mothers and their children social support than it is to ignore them until they're old enough to send to prison.

I dare you to THINK about this. The woman in question is taking responsibility for her child, working two jobs, and providing childcare in her off hours. Why the HELL don't you think this is worthy of social support?

[Bouncy Ball]

27. You made me think of something I heard Dean say once.

"You either pay for good schools or pay to build prisons."

[Solly Mack]

36. Exactly. Society pays on one end or the other...better to pay on the end

that brings positive results.


(actual/factual, non-fundy based)education frees the people

prison controls them

[eridani]

48. Or as Jesse Jackson used to say--

"Penn State $8000 a year, state pen $20,000 a year. Train our youth!"

[Massacure]

30. I'm not saying to not give them social support and send them to prison

I just don't think a 18 year old should have gotten pregnant knowing that they couldn't support a baby.

[Bouncy Ball]

32. Ever heard of birth control failure?

It happens. I know several kids who exist because of it.

The only thing that works 100% is abstinence and we know how well abstinence works, right? LOL!

So she had a failure of birth control, guy promised to be around, then took off. So she had the baby. Like Warpy said, you can't send them back. She didn't want to give it up for adoption (and there's no law saying she has to), so she kept her child.

Notice there are no anti-choice right wingers in the picture, thrilled that she didn't have an abortion, and providing child care and stuff. They are nowhere to be found.

[Warpy]

38. Man, you really don't get it, do you?

I'm sure she was convinced the guy was going to marry her and they'd live happily ever after. Or perhaps she is Catholic and thought she'd go to hell if she had an abortion. Or maybe she just wanted a baby.

The point is that the kid is HERE NOW, and she's taking responsibility for raising it and trying to support it working TWO JOBS in a country that doesn't care.

Do you moan and point fingers, or do you work to get this woman some support? Or do you just wait until the kid is old enough to go to prison?

This is the REAL WORLD, kid, and "couldashouldaoughta" never works out the way you think it will when you're 16.

Now, if you have anything constructive to say about how to get higher wages, less offshoring, and more available day care, have at it. However, this mewling about "bad choices" is unproductive. You have no idea what any woman's choices really were.

[Clark2008]

39. OK, here's the cycle thing again.

Her mother can't spend time with her because she's working two jobs to put food in her mouth, a roof over her head and provide some symbol of medical care.
The child has NO role model upon her teenaged years. Her mother, while doing the best she can, is tired upon her return from home, can't talk, is listless and cannot talk to her daughter other than a few "yeahs." Humans get tired, you know.
The daughter wants and needs love and jumps into bed with the first nimrod who promises it. Ends up pregnant because she didn't use her birth control properly, if at all, and BOOM - you have the cycle all over again.
I have a son, I work a lot. One job, but two at home (my son's raising and housekeeping/lawnwork) and I still try to find the time to go to the CSRs at school (it's a program on how to teach values and fundamentals for very young children - no religion, just a value-based education class on boundaries and rewards and rules), the PTO, soccer (my son has a financial mentor for soccer or he wouldn't be going. A dear friend pays for that, but I'm the one that takes him).
Let me tell you, I'm pooped. I'm so tired, I can't sleep. But some people just simply don't have that energy.

[Massacure]

40. That makes sense. Your basically saying a person born in poverty

will have children that are stuck in poverty, who will have more children stuck in poverty. I can see that.

I still think the government needs to work on its sex-ed instead of feeding bullshit to teenagers. There is more than meets the eye than minimum wage, but that is off topic in this thread.

[Clark2008]

49. Agreed, but it's not only the sex-ed

It's the value structure at home.
The CSR instructor last night said this, and I agree, "If you've not molded your child by the fourth grade, you've lost control."
It's true. Sex ed begins at birth. It begins with teaching respect and responsibility from Day One.
BTW, the CSR was proud of my son. She was talking about how our "heroes" today are sports stars. My son, who was in the corner playing with other kids, heard that and said, "NO! I know a REAL hero. I met General Clark."

Now, not to delve into who you're for or again', as we say, the point is that my son knows sports figures aren't heros, but people who fight wars are - even if you don't agree with the war.

It starts when they're babies. Teach 'em, love 'em, discipline 'em.
But some people, at 20, 19, 18, aren't skilled enough to do that.

P.S. Wanted to add that I haven't dealt with Abu Ghraib with my son, yet. He's only 5. But I'm sure he knows standing people up buck naked with bags on their heads isn't right. I'd lay money on that one. But he's never seen those photos.

[Massacure]

51. Fourth grade? Seems a bit early.

I never really noticed peer pressure until sixth or seventh. I live in a upper class neighborhood though. I cannot speak for other areas.

[Clark2008]

54. I live in a solid middle class neighborhood

Life is good here.
But, dear, children are exposed to so much more than just 10 years ago. I don't know who or what is at fault, but, God bless 'em, kids just don't get to be kids anymore.
It really sucks.
I'm trying my best to let my kid be a kid for awhile. :)

[Massacure]

86. 10 years? lol, I'm 16 and I notice a difference even with the freshmen.

[Bouncy Ball]

59. I started telling my daughter the facts of life when she was THREE

and asked where she came from! Of course you keep it simple, only answer the question they asked, and make it age-appropriate, but talking to your kids about sex isn't a one time only kind of thing, it's a continual process.

She's now in fourth grade, and knows a hell of a lot more than I did in fourth grade. Forewarned is forearmed. No one can ever give her misinformation, because I have armed her with correct information. (BTW, she doesn't know EVERYTHING yet. There are some things she hasn't asked about or has no need to know at this point. But we are very honest with her and have always encouraged her to talk to us, ask us questions, and she does.)

[kdmorris]

46. How the hell would they know it when they got pregnant?

If Daddy doesn't disapper until after the kid is born, you're kind of stuck there, eh?

If her income and Daddy's income would be enough to support the kid and then Daddy decides to take off when the kid is 4 weeks old, this is kind of the situation you get stuck in. Suddenly, you have to be Mommy and Daddy and try to make both incomes.

Maybe a little less judgement and a little more empathy would be a good thing?

[Clark2008]

53. Amen!

I'm 35. I was married two years when I got pregnant. Asshole cheated on me the night our son was born and continued to do so.
Rather than live that way, with the potential of disease, the bad self-vibes and the misery, I kicked his money-making ass out (and I wasn't working at the time).
I didn't bring my kid into the world alone, but I'm dealing with the decisions HIS FATHER MADE and the ones I had to make as a result.
Empathy. We could all use a little.

[jdj]

57. A penis and a vagina don't KNOW, they just fuck.

especially at that age. The sooner humanity accepts this (and after 100,000 years) its about time. People this age are biologically COMPELLED to breed because this is the time when we have matured enough to be self-supporting (theoretically anyway) yet our bodies are at their most physically fit and healthy, which is how nature prefers to breed children.

Religion with it's castrated Gods is standing in the way of humanity accepting our natural selves and providing the best for young breeding women and children. It's unforgivable to make a biological imperative that is the strongest human instinct there is some kind of sin or intellectual failing. Do we really hate ourselves that much? Pathetic.

[slutticus]

31. My mom went through this shit.

I can't believe how well I turned out. I honestly don't understand how the hell she pulled it off. And I had a Nintendo like the other kids. I had food. I had clothes. I had shoes. (not as nice as the other kids'...but shoes are shoes).

Somehow she made it work.

Heres to my mom :toast:

I think I'll give her a call tonight...

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Awww. That's so nice.

Yeah, give her a huge thank you, because living like that certainly isn't easy. And you DID turn out well! :hi:

[Clark2008]

55. Aww... hugs!

:hug:

To both your Mom and you.

People ask me what I do. I say, "Well, I'm a Mom and I'm in marketing." LOL.

[kdmorris]

41. And I weep, too

Yep, that's just the way it is. And it should not be that way in the "greatest nation on Earth", as the "patriots" like to say.

[tavalon]

47. Bless you, this is some great work

I worked at a county hospital down in San Antonio, TX and I now work in the one up here in Seattle and you are so right. These folks have no other options, they aren't being lazy in going to the ER, they really don't have any other option. And these county facilities cannot sustain, are not sustaining and eventually, even this safety net will be curtailed.

True Christians can be recognized by their works. False Christians can also be recognized by their works. Lately, we seem to have quite a deficit in Christians. Well, real Christians. We certainly seem to have a glut of the fake ones.

[Bouncy Ball]

60. Very true, and thanks.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

50. Bouncy Ball ! this is great...

I've been there too, after paying bills, 35$ left for food for 2 adults. Luckily we got WIC, and I breastfed.

Your question - can you buy toiletries w/ food stamps? No.

A few more tweaks... and then YES! Everyone here needs to send it to everyone in their address books, friends and Senators.

Excellent!

[Bouncy Ball]

58. Ah, that's something I hadn't thought of, thank you.

DUers, please feel free to send this out to anyone in your email address book. You can use it in its entirety.

And of course, lurking right wingers, seriously, think about it. You either pay into low-cost, cost-effective programs (such as CHIPs, health insurance for the children of the working poor) or you pay MORE when they end up at the emergency room, in jail, etc.

I'd rather pay for prevention than a cure.

[ashmanonar]

64. scary.

scary scary scary.

our country is gone. never to return. unless something big happens before the next election (bush and co does the perp walk, a massive cleanup of the gov't in general, maybe a small revolution) we're all screwed. wage slavery at it's worst.

on edit; i'm a retard.

[Bouncy Ball]

65. It's certainly very real (it's actually based on one of my former

students, who is living this life right now), but it's also nothing new.

HOWEVER, it WAS better for people like Sue under Clinton because there weren't massive cuts to social programs, the economy was better, jobs were more plentiful, etc.

[ashmanonar]

66. indeed.

i wasn't sure if this was hypothetical or real, that's why i edited to say that i'm a retard.

i'll say it again.

i'm a retard.

:dunce:

[Bouncy Ball]

67. No, no, no it IS hypothetical

in the sense that it is only BASED on a real person. It does not include the actual details of her life, her finances, etc.

But this IS a life too many people live. Can you believe in my first thread on this there was actually a guy asking me if there are actually plenty of people living like this? He DOUBTED it. My God, I still want to know where he lives.

[ashmanonar]

72. yea.

to be perfectly honest, if i didn't know better, i'd doubt it at first too. but i have 2 parents that work skilled jobs (construction and cosmetology) and are just barely getting by.

and putting me through college.

i'm sure without me going to college, they'd have less problems...but they want to make sure that i get OUT of the cycle, that i get a good (or at least better than manual labor) job somewhere.

my parents are awesome.

[tavalon]

76. and I pray that they are right

that college is the way out. But there are plenty of masters prepared computer programmers who might just disagree with that one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure your parents are awesome. I just hope they are awesome and right.

[ashmanonar]

82. well, the way they (and i) see it, a college degree (and a good portfolio)

is better to get out of the cycle of living by your means...(graphic design will NEVER go down as a career, our society is too impregnated by image).

i think they're right. i just hope they're able to, as well.


interesting thing: despite there being a shit economy, my dad has no lack of jobs...remodels, new houses, etc...what happened to scaling back in a bear economy? my mom, too, has no lack of business...doing perms, hair colorations, haircuts, all of which are unnecessaries...i see this as a sign that either the economy isn't as bad as it seems, or the american people are crazy. i prefer the latter.

[amazona]

77. many bills don't get paid but suggestion for diapers

A friend in a similar situation -- even though they were married with two adults bringing in money it still wasn't enough because of an illness in the family -- they bought the black market diapers at a substantial savings.

Her youngest baby had chronic illness which eventually bankrupted them but they also got some financial help for awhile by signing up with a medical organization that tested new medicines so the baby was getting medicine, although obviously not one that had completed all stages of testing.


You really still can't make it on minimum wage or even two minimum wage jobs in my area but these were a couple ideas my friends used to bring down their expenses. Don't know how much help it is really. In the end they had to declare bankruptcy to stop the bill collectors.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[lonestarnot]

79. Excellent post! Class warfare demonstrated at its best! n/t

[Up2Late]

80. I found a bunch of good stuff on the AFL-CIO website

And remember, these are 2001 Dollars, which were about 50% more valuable.

http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/minimumwage/charts.cfm

[Ms. Clio]

84. That chart just says it all--and see how the rate just skyrockets

When Reagan is elected.

[MissWaverly]

85. More than numbers

I was in line behind a poor family last week, the father had 1 child about 3-1/2 with him, he was buying like 50 of the TV dinners on sale for his family, that was it, no cookies, no milk, no juice, no cereal that's IT, he said the child likes to eat the turkey parts in HIS dinner. They are sharing TV dinners for God's sake!

[Bouncy Ball]

87. Did you see that speech by John Edwards during the campaign

in which he was talking about health care and a veteran in a wheelchair told the audience he and his wife both have a heart condition that requires the same medicine, but since they can't afford the pills for both of them (AFTER his VA benefits, even!), they simply SPLIT the pills?

It was tear-wrenching. They were BOTH taking a chance because of money. It really threw Edwards off for a second, it was so heartbreaking. And you'd think he would have been used to it with those horrible medical malpractice cases he represented. Whew.

[MissWaverly]

88. let's hope that we can change things around

there's got to be a way, someway to turn things around and help these people, maybe we'll find it here, I have given to have Ohio recounted, maybe, just maybe that will have some long term results.

[EC]

89. You can add to that, the greatest Repuge myths

One: That minimum wage jobs aren't meant for regular jobs, they are for college kids, or entry level, and that people with families don't work these jobs. Two: That only the lazy or people unwilling to better themselves work minimum wage jobs.



The simple truth is that there are plenty of college educated people trying to make it on minimum wage jobs. Why? Because that's all there is. It used to be maybe 25 to 1 low wage to living wage jobs available. Now (I'm only guessing here) but I would say the ratio is at 75 to 1 now...


There is absolutely no good reason to have the minimum wage so low, even the proposed raises by some states wouldn't even be sufficient with the cost of living and lack of promotional opportunities where they are now.

All this administration is achieving is more poor, with will escalate to more crime and death...