If you're proud to be an American, why?

[Modem Butterfly]

I've often wondered about folks who describe themselves as "Proud to be an American". What, exactly, are they proud of?

I was born here. I had nothing to do with being American. Certainly those folks who actually had to work hard to become Americans have made an achievement worthy of pride. But most of us are Americans simply by dumb luck.

I feel fortunate to be an American. I've occasionally felt ashamed of being an American. I've often felt a bit embarassed to be an American, and sometimes I feel really happy to be an American. But I've never felt proud to be an American. I had nothing to do with it. What's to be proud of?

[tridim]

1. In my 30 some years as an American,

I've never been ashamed to be American until Idiotboy was handed power. It's something my parents will never understand.. I wasn't ashamed under Bush I or Reagan, and certainly not under Clinton's term.. Just Idiotboy. It's his fault, and I place blame fully on him because Bush makes it clear that he believes he is "America". I love my America, but I loathe Bush's America, if that makes sense.

[Modem Butterfly]

4. I was ashamed of being an American during Rwanda

I'll never understand why we didn't do more, or anything, to stop that from happening.

[candle_bright]

12. Why should we alone carry the shame for that?

The whole world should be ashamed, starting with the U.N.

All nations who didn't intervene share this one.

[Modem Butterfly]

15. I don't think we should

But I'm an American, not French, or British, or Japanese, or Nigerian...

[candle_bright]

16. We're on the same page

here. We've got our piece of the guilt pie, as does everyone else who didn't stop it.

[Darranar]

79. "Starting with the U.N"?

There were people in the UN who wanted to intervene. The US, among others, said no.

The UN is the United Nations, after all. Very few of its failures are institutional; most of them are the results of the failures of nations themselves.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

66. Rwanda was a dark day in the history of the world.

Everybody dropped the ball there, except of course those brave men and women who stood up and fought.

[reallygone]

98. I felt bad about it, but...

It was still better than invading and killing thousands of Africans, putting them in camps, and then setting up a government for them based on our values.

[CityZen-X]

2. It's Dajavou All Over Again!

I believe that was also a popular expression back in the days of Atlantis.
I am proud to be an Atlantan! You can include Roman, etc.

[qazplm]

3. pride doesnt always have to be

a reflection of individual accomplishment, it can also be pride in group accomplishment, and while there are bad things we do in America there are also great things we do that we can be proud of, and since America only exists with each and every one of us pulling our weight, then each and everyone one of us can be proud of being American.

I mean its not saying you claim everything good from 1776 to today, its being proud of continuing those traditions that we do continue that are great.

and its no different than feeling any of the OTHER emotions such as shame etc.

[atreides1]

7. Group Accomplishments Since 9/11/00

1. Detention of individuals without due process.
2. The Patriot Act.
3. The illegal attack on another country that was no threat.
4. The "Torture isn't Torture" memo.


Here are some of the group accomplishments since 9/11, can anyone name anymore.

Not the group here, but the facts are that a large portion of Americans are cheering all of this as a way to "protect the homeland".

[reallygone]

99. Its good to be proud!

If we do not feel pride, then we won't feel shame. We have done wrong things in the past. We are ashamed by them. We seek to do better to maintian our pride. Pride is an important virtue if it cause us to do self-examination and reflection that results in giving us pause to seek out the best way to make policy.

Even shrub wants a "Legacy". He has pride (misplaced) and wants to feel proud. He will seek to do something that others will view as worthy of praise, and that is likely to be something (an issue or policy such as improved healthcare) that WE might view as a positive event.

If you have self-pride, you tend to act better so you can feel good about yourself. Criminals have no pride. They don't respect themselves and so believe they can do anything to anyone.

America has brought about many improvements in the world. We may not be all the way there yet, and we have surely erred on many occasions, but we have made the world a better place. A democratic government, universal suffrage, improved health-care system, rules of war (the U.S. was first to develop and adopt these), effective judicial system, more rights for women, minority rights, etc. None of the above was part of any national policy before the U.S. Now many of these issues are world standard as a result of our example.

Pride is wrong when carried to the excess of arrogance, which is where we have too often strayed from the path.

[BuyingThyme]

5. The MUSIC and other arts.

[AngelAsuka]

35. Music?!?

I thought we were only responsible for polka or something like that! :toast: :silly:

~~AA~~

[smoogatz]

49. Jazz is the only indigenous American art form.

And that's something to be proud of. If you're black.

[smoogatz]

50. The WWII Generation

Had a lot to be proud of. They endured the depression, beat the crap out of global fascism, held the communists at bay. But they also lived in a segregated, sexist society that would seem intolerable to most of us lefties, if we had to travel back in time. Which is exactly where the neocons want to take us...

[Modem Butterfly]

95. Jazz isn't technically indigenous

It's roots come from Africa and mid European hymns.

[Telly Savalas]

103. But the fusion of these two traditions and its evolution...

into what we call jazz is a process which occurred almost exclusively in the United States.

[Modem Butterfly]

107. The same could be said for Rock n' Roll and Country music as well.

NFT

[Blue_Tires]

6. baseball, apple pie and chevrolet (corvette)

mmmmm....500HP!!!

[tridim]

9. Except there's no logical reason to have car with a 500HP engine

at the top of the peak oil curve. Ford (and others) should be moving the opposite direction IMO.. Bio-diesel and hybrid tech. Ford's economy cars only get about 30MPG. That's pathetic and irresponsible. I looked at the Ford Focus and passed because the mileage sucked.

[theboss]

24. I can name five logical reasons

1. Chicks dig it.
2. It feels like you are driving a fucking F-16.
3. No one has ever gotten laid because of their Hybrid.
4. Christie Brinkley in National Lampoon's Vacation.
5. Prince didn't write a song about a Volvo.

[yellowjacket]

59. You are so liberal and environmentally friendly

that it hurts. :eyes:

[tridim]

62. It hurts? Why?

Is there something wrong with being Liberal and environmentally aware?

[yellowjacket]

75. Well, it's a figure of speech, but if I must...

explain, I will.

Saying things like:
"I looked at the Ford Focus and passed because the mileage sucked," are just plain comical. Boy, you are such a great liberal. Who walks around saying things like, "I stopped reading the New York Times because it didn't contain enough post-consumer recycled material."

I find uber-Liberal oneupsmanship hilarious.

[fishwax]

80. What's comical about considering MPG when making a major purchase?

I don't see that as "uber-liberal oneupsmanship."

[tridim]

83. Well, I can get 50+mpg in a VW Turbo Diesel

Why should I give Ford my money when there's a better car out there? I stopped shopping at Walmart because they're fascist. Is that okay with you?

[St. Jarvitude]

87. Gas costs money, you know

And a lot of money. Around here (Chicago) we're still at about $2/gallon. For a 12 gallon fuel tank, that works out to $24 per fill up.

The extra 15 miles per gallon out of a 45 MPG economy car vs. an "okay" 30 MPG car can make a huge difference in paying the monthly bills.

[mr blur]

31. Speaking as a foreigner,

I'd say that America has had much to be proud of. But you DIDN'T invent apple pie!

[Skittles]

81. LOL

you know it blur! :hi:

[frankly_fedup2]

8. Uh-oh . . . we are gonna make the news again. Some

freeper will take only negative responses (if any) and send it around. But who cares about their little minds anyway.

As for the question, I am proud to be an American, because at least I know I'm Free . . . (just kidding).

No really I would not live anywhere else in the world. I do not agree with our Government at times and what they do in the name of the American People; however, my father is from that "Greatest Generation." He is a veteran of WWII. If it were not for men and women like my dad, I wonder what America would be like today.

I guess I am most proud to be an American because I am one. Does that make sense? I was born an American to American parents.

Until 2000 I mostly trusted our government (yeah d-u-m-b is across my forehead). However, the government is not what America is. America is about the American people, and the American people are the first to do anything just about. We are the first with aid. We are the first with protection. We are the first above every other country. That is what makes me proud. I'm proud to be a part of the citizenship of the U.S. of America.

That is why even those that hate America (which I take as a hatred of our government policies), but they still want to live in this country.

[Modem Butterfly]

11. The Freakers will just make some shit up...

...Half of the shit Freakers ascribe to us is completely fictional anyway, so I'm not too worried about them.

To me, being proud of your country is like being proud of the shape of your nose or the color of your eyes. Unless you've done something to achieve that look, what's to be proud of?

Don't get me wrong, America's a great country. But I'm an American by accident, not achievement.

[rockymountaindem]

23. Well said, friend.

"However, the government is not what America is. America is about the American people, and the American people are the first to do anything just about. We are the first with aid. We are the first with protection. We are the first above every other country. That is what makes me proud. I'm proud to be a part of the citizenship of the U.S. of America."

Even so, I'm also rather proud of US government. I know we've hit a rough patch, but I know it can't last forever. No other country is perfect. Japan's government always gets low ratings from international studies on corruption. Even Switzerland (which hasn't ever conquered anyone unjustly, lol) has a rather outdated system from my understanding. Women weren't allowed to vote there until 1970. In Britain some people actually inherited their government posts from their fathers.

Although American government has its flaws, I'm not willing to elevate any other system above ours because they also have their own problems.

But back to what you say, I'm proud of the American people. All these people who call US troops murderers and war criminals are letting their opposition to the current administration get the best of them. I'm happy to be an American citizen, and I think that most of my fellow citizens are as well.

[noonwitch]

10. I'm proud to be an american, even if it is an accident of birth

I feel lucky to live in a country with the freedom to discuss my political views without being arrested for dissent (well, so far, at least).

I'm proud that our forefathers arranged a consitution that protects many of our basic rights, and that we are able to amend the constitution to address issues as they arise within our soiety.

I'm proud that our country helped save the world in the 1940s from facism.

I am proud that we haven't literally slaughtered each other over politics since 1865, not counting the native americans, that is.

I am proud that the people of this nation are descendants from every ethnic, religious and racial group there is. I am further proud that we all live in this imperfect society and are not killing each other all the time over ethnic differences. I am grateful that my grandpa and his parents came here after WWI in search of a better life than Europe had to offer at the time, and that they found it.

Most of all, though, I am happy that I live in a country where indoor plumbing and electricity are easily available and standard in most housing!

[hfojvt]

22. nice post

you cracked me up with the last line.

However, we are killing each other all the time, although it may not be about ethnic differences. As a society, America is full of hate and violence more than Europe. As I wrote a year after 9-11:
"However, in the year following 9-11, there have been over 20,000 homicides in America, if this has been an average year. In the year 2000, U.S. residents age 12 or older experienced about 25.9 million crimes. 19 million were property crimes, 6.3 million were crimes of violence. There were about 250,000 rapes. Thus in an average year, 6.3 million Americans are terrorised by their fellow Americans. There is a war on terror for you.
99,860 people died in accidents in 1999, over 40,000 in automobile accidents. Maybe we should bomb Detroit, since that is at least eight times worse than what Al-qaida did in a year. 29,199 people killed themself in 1999, und HIV was a big killer, taking 14,802."

[dhinojosa]

13. Cause Lee Greenwood is my inspiration!

It's just a jingoism term.

[stopbush]

14. I never got the "Reagan made us proud to be an Americans again" crap.

These same people who crucify anyone *today* for saying they're not *proud* to be an American ("America's the greatest...always has been...how can you not be proud?...you're hurting the troops...you're aiding terrorists!") admit that before Reagan, they weren't proud to be an American either.

That is what they're saying, isn't it?

[LSK]

17. my sentiments exactly

[AngryOldDem]

18. What;'s to be proud of?

Not much, these days.

[Igel]

30. Still, it was good to see the aircraft carrier delivering food and

aid to Indonesians when nearly nobody else could get in there.

Just a few countries on earth could do it.

[AngryOldDem]

19. Self-delete

[AP]

20. Because of the possibilities. If you want to be part of the solution

rather than part of the problem, no other country in the world has so much potential waiting to be unlocked.

[American Tragedy]

21. I'm not proud to be American. But I'm not ASHAMED either.

Like pride, I feel that guilt or shame can only legitimately emerge from one's own conscious actions and decisions.

But being American is an innate part of my identity, like my gender, or race, or ancestry. Anyone who judges me based on my nationality is merely engaged in bigotry.

[Swamp Rat]

25. Right on! n/t

[Modem Butterfly]

67. To an extent I disagree

Whatever our country does during our lifetimes is done in our names and reflecs on us all collectively. Of course, that's just one woman's NSHO.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer had it right.

I was born here because my grandmother couldn't support her 6 kids (including my mother) in Canada after immigrating from England where she had immigrated to from Ireland.

Any feelings of patriotism that I had were destroyed during the Vietnam slaughter.

Being "proud" of one's bit of turf as opposed to some other bit of turf is ridiculous to the point of silly.

And, the ability of shouting "We're Number One", or, "USA! USA!", while we impoverish and kill to "protect our vital interests", is grotesque.

I'm not proud to be an American. Nor would I be "proud" to be a citizen of any other country.

[Dirk39]

29. I like this one from Schopenhauer, too.

"Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts as a last resource pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and happy to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Aphorisms

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Thank you. I'll add it to my collection of quotes.

[Hudobna]

27. Hello

I apologize for murdering your beautiful English language. I am Italian and I greet you from Roma. I don't follow much American politics which for me with your two parties is always very easy and simple, like Coca Cola against Pepsi or MacDonald against Burgher King...

With all the parties we have in my country, I don't know who should envey who.

So of course you should be proud to be an American, intelligently proud. Madonna santissima! You people land on the moon and we're still here eating bucatini alla matriciana. You make silly toys like computers a wonderful invention to unite the world!

Excuse me, but of course you are proud or maybe you won't even ask the question. If I'm proud to be an Italian, I mean sharingly proud, not Mussolini proud, why should you not be proud to be American?

Look at the beautiful Music you make! My grandfather who was in the Italian Army in the 2nd world war told me stories of how he likes to hear Glen Miller swing after years of dreadful marches. He was so happy when he hear "In the Mood" that it was like starting over even though he hadn't the AMLIRE (american money in Italy at the time) to buy a razor blade. At the time Happiness, Hope and America were almost the same thing.

You people think only now now now... but America takes in everybody poor from the world (even I have family in New Jersey, Chicago and California). So America is also wider dimension, of generations... boats and boats of desperate people that the monarchies consider like trash and who in your big country become Mr. and Mrs. and not just Ehi you Giuseppe, come here! Ehi you Maria, clean the toilet!

Maybe not right away, but everybody who work can make pretty good in America.

You must never confuse your hate for a politician for a hate for your country. Every time I click my mouse, I say Thank You, Mr. Intel, Thank you Mr. Jobs, Thank you Mr. Gates! I know, they're too rich and they will not fit through the needle when they die, but now I'm too rich too (though I am very very poor, and quite alone and just getting better from 5 years of stupdity with needle in my arm)... I am rich because I have your language and I have Mr. Google who gives me a million free books at Gutenburg.org... and shows me Museums in Amsterdam and Paris. Now I can argue with the people of Turkey or France (instead of my next door neighbor who is a Fascista).

You silly people! Politics is politics, they will always be dreadful, sometimes more, sometimes less, but your country, your spirit, your crazy freedom is never to be forgot.

I have two luxuries in my life. Not a car, not jewelry, (I had them and I wasted them. I did so many bad things!!) I have a computer with ADSL fast connection and I have satellite TV.

America gives me Discovery Channel and National Geographic and that crazy crazy (maybe too crazy) cinema with everything exploding on the moon and Terminator making me pee in my pants! I like watching American movies better than eating chocolate.

I love all American music. I like hillbilly, black spiritual but also very cool jazz and Latino dance.

Look what you have, the good you have done, and the always new that comes and you want to be unhappy?

Maybe it's too late, but one day if God or Allah or Shiva brings me a baby I want him to be an American... and if you're not proud, I will teach him to be proud for you!

Then politics which is a carosello, a mary-go-round, who knows? Maybe he calls me a Fascista or I call him, but I know that with the blue passport he's with good and smart people who can live with big differences of race, culture, religion... even better than my Italy which I love and love to hate.

[bling bling]

54. Welcome Hudobna

You provide an interesting perspective to the discussion. Thanks for sharing it.

[donheld]

70. Wonderful Post and welcome to DU Hudobna

:hi: Thank you for reminding us we can be proud.

[Red State Rebel]

86. Bless you and thank you!

I think it's too easy for people to forget why this is such a great country.

[JohnLocke]

136. A very good post!

Welcome to Democratic Underground! Your English is excellent and your words are profound!

[screembloodymurder]

28. Because Americans are

"the most timorous, sniveling, poltroonish, ignominious mob of serfs and goose-steppers who ever gathered under one flag in Christendom since the end of the Middle Ages."
H.L. Menchen

[Hudobna]

32. Goose step America?

Hello screeemblodymurder,

I think you mean the Nazi Germans. I was married for one year to a German boy and I had gone with him to Heidelberg to meet his parents. He still have an old old old grandfather who was not a Nazi (or so he says, maybe they all say that) but he told me the story of how Goebbels make a propaganda film showing how bad America is.

In the film, to shock the racist Germans they have a negro black man shining shoes and making rhythm with the rag. For the Germans of the time the people with color (I am dark olive) were like animals, like what the Fascista white hitler groups of America and Europe (yes even my Italy!) call "mud people".

Well the crazy music of that short piece of propaganda played by the unknowing negro black man became so popular that the Germans would go just to see it, then leave right away and then come back to see it again.

[More Than A Feeling]

33. I am proud to be an American

I am proud of our Revolution, I am proud of our founding, the way a collection of statesmen such as the world will never see again could come together to found a country based on the highest principles combined with a practicality that deals with the reality of human nature, a system that has endured over 200 years. I am proud of our continuous struggle to live up to those ideals, however far away they seem at any one time.

[donheld]

34. There's quite a lot of US history that leaves me less than proud

Slavery, extermination of natives etc.

[Hudobna]

36. Yes slavery

Ciao Donheld,

You look at history and everybody make big exterminations in Allegria. Don't misunderstand me, I don't justify... but I take the look from a more historical approach. I am Roman. My people through history exterminate everybody and his cousins and uncles and sisters. I cannot take blame or I will go crazy. What is blame if I cannot pay for my sin?

My country made so many slaves, conquered so many different peoples and fed so many Christians to the lions that I can make feeling guilty a full time job... (not a bad idea if I can find people to pay me!)

Now I'm just an old Italian girl, not too smart, not too stupid, but I cannot live my life always with guiltiness. All I can do is let the dead people bury the dead people and do my very best to make everybody I meet today happy and comfortable.

Slavery and extermination of Indians is funny kind of guilt, because you didn't do it and you - I am sure - would never do it; it is funny guilt because you cannot change it and you cannot ever bring back happiness to those long dead unhappy people. You can only learn from mistake and then give happiness to the living. It is bad and false to make unresponsible people guilty and it is false and bad to feel guilt of ancient crimes of civilization.

Anyway, in Italy we say: "Il più pulito ha la rogna"

Wait - I don't know the word... let me check

MANGE

The cleanest of us has the mange.

Ciao

[Rebel_blogger]

51. Thank you Hudobna for your wise perspective!

[Djinn]

37. pride in nationality seems stupid to me

I'm an Australian and Scottish citizen - I didn't "choose' to be either so I just can't feel "proud".

I don't feel ashamed as such either, I'm ashamed by certain things, stolen generation, Habib/Hicks, refugee detention camps but there's good stuff too, it's just that I don't feel I can be "proud" of it really.

Collective pride I can understand though, it only annoys me when people want to bask in collective pride and refuse to acknowledge collective guilt.

Our little PM refuses to apologise for a program that stole aboriginal children from their families in a documented attempt to "breed out" australia's indigenous population, Little Johnny says he can't apologise for something in the past that he had nothing to do with. Only problems with this theory of course is that it was actually still happening in the 1970's when johnny was an MP but also because Johnny is MORE than happy to indulge in collective pride.

[LanternWaste]

38. Hmmm

It's difficult for me to use the word "pride" in being some thing that happened by a cosmic lottery. ("Aren't you SO proud of Cousin Jeff? he just one the Mega-Lotto! What a accomplished young man...").

I am profoundly proud of what historic and contemporary American's have done and are doing. Habitat for Humanity, Peace Corp, public libraries, Social Security, Civil Rights Movements, etc.. and in that sense, yes- I am proud to be amongst a brotherhood of men (Men being Man being Latin for Humanus meaning men & women before I get called on that one...)

But on the other hand, I am just as profoundly dissapointed by what we have done and continue to do. And in that sense, I am all to oftern ashamed at being an American (to contrast the two extremes...)

[Hudobna]

45. Hello Lantern

Ciao

I think, yes, of course, on one philosophical level you are correct. But if you follow that way of thinking to the extreme, you will become a nichilist.

It is proper, I believe, to cultivate your garden and love it especially more... but always in the sense of sharing.

It is even good that I boast of my excellent Italian coffee and if done with a smile, warm feeling, that I make fun of the radiator water that Danish drink and the mud of Turks... but of course while defending quality and heritage we must not lose proper eye of regard to the big picture that you very correctly illustrate. We are result of lotto. Our attachment must be joyous.

I say: "Here you mud drinking Turk! Taste real coffee!"
And he says: "Here you taste how much better my coffee is and always say thank you to Allah that we left the bags of coffee behind at the battle of Vienna in 1683... or else ciao ciao Cappuccino!"

History is not only for hate... not even bad history. History is for being overcome.

Trevi Fountain is mine like yours, but I live here and I must take care of it, so it must be a little closer to my heart, otherwise it is lost even for you. Italy is a beautiful beautiful country, but if I think and behave like you say, I will not care.

The conceptuality for me is like default on your computer. In truth Microsoft word allows me 10000000000 possible setting defaults. As a human being I can recognize this bigness, but as a person with limited space and time to live I can only have a few... better to perfect them... lose myself in them...

Moderation. We see how popular football (soccer) is. How people go crazy and put very funny national meanings into a ball rolling into a net. We are irrational. We must not fight that, but organize good, safe and fun games... where Norwegians put savage Valhalla horns and Brazilians play their beautiful drums. We must govern variety, not replace it with exaggerated intellectual nichilism.

This requires foolishness... "wise" foolishness...

Maybe you are more proud than you think by trying to embrace the absolute. If you are religious or a great philosopher you can recognize the lotto game, but to try to live that way, is like trying to embrace evetything... instead you will have little or nothing.

[Telly Savalas]

100. Forza Azzurri!

Thanks for sharing these thoughts. In the U.S. all too often the love of country gets mixed up with support of jingoistic imperialism and American exceptionalism. Because the waters of patriotism are muddied by the American Right in this manner, a lot of people on the Left have a hard time experiencing this "wise foolishness" of which you speak.

I know it's completely irrational, but I'm damn proud to be an American. It's home and a I love it. I'm proud that I share the nationality of Martin Luther King Jr., John Steinbeck, Henry David Thoreau, and John Coltrane. Despite all it's problems, we've got a pretty damn cool country.

On the other hand, I'm not going to make some ludicrous claim that America is the greatest country in the world, especially in light of the fact that there are over 200 nations I've never visited, so how am I to judge? There is no greatest country any more than there is a greatest flavor of ice cream. Some places are certainly better than others, but there are enough nice places in the world to live that it's pointless to point one out as being the best. I've been living in Canada for 3 years and love it too. I think I'd love living in Italy as well. With the food, wine, coffee, beautiful architecture, beautiful people, and beautiful calcio, I'm not sure I'd want to leave. (In addition "Fratelli d'Italia" is a much better anthem than "The Star Spangled Banner" or "Oh, Canada".)

[Hudobna]

119. Ciao Telly

Ciao Telly,

The Star Spangled Banner is almost impossible to sing... and Fratelli D'Italia is silly and nobody here knows the words. For a while there was a movement to change it with something from the Verdi opera "Nabucco"... but Presidente Ciampi, an old conservative, ended that debate.

For me, the only really good and cool national anthem, the one that can even be set to Coltrane Jazz is the French Marseillese (spelling?).

Yet again I am more patriotic than you! (Of course I am, I don't live there!).

Being Italy is easy. I want to see Italy with the good global mish mash you have in America.

This is a country where someone might kill you for overcooking the pasta for 2 minutes. That is how we are stuck in our ways.

(By the way anybdoy who overcooks spaghetti 2 minutes IS a criminal).

Calcio here is a disease. Once, when I was younger, I was for Lazio, now I only watch important international games. On satellite TV I like to watch baseball. I don't know what they're doing, but I like the funny chatter between the announcers and I am amazed by all the statistics that tell you how many times this man or that man changed his underwear in 1998!

When I was doing drugs, I used to like professional golf... especially the English commentators, who made it seem like the world would end if the little ball didn't go into the hole.

Plop! And the man wins a million dollars!

I like to watch American football and maybe that explains my perhaps excessive admiration for your country. The people (the people? Okay the gigantic monsters) get together and make plans for attack and defense. And though with some limitations, they can use God's most important gift to man (unless you are feeling sexy) the HANDS! It's very positive and optimistic... like the americani! "We can do it" instead of "Let's hope it happens" of Calcio.

Canada sounds like a fine place, more of a European version of America... but I suffer the cold. I think I could leave Italy for the USA, but for Canada I don't know.

Rome has many foreign people who were "stregati" - bewitched and would not live anywhere else. But the city is a madhouse of traffic and difficulties and Romans are rude and vulgar. They think they are still Caput Mundi. Others have Kings, we have the Pope who crowns emperors (that's the attitude evem among taxi cab drivers).

But underneath the thick thick thick cynicism, like all people, there is a heart. It is important for all of us to keep it that way, and not the opposite.

Ciao

[Cleita]

39. I was until Shrub took us to war and proved to the world

we are nothing better than imperialistic conquerors. I still feel like I'm a real American. I think this criminal class of neo-cons who have usurped power are really anti-American and should be called Bush Americans to distinguish them and their agenda from the rest of us. It's like we distinguished Nazis from Germans in the last century. I wouldn't want to be know as a Bush American.

[William Bloode]

40. I have never been proud of being an American.

As a Native American why would i, after this country commited genocide against my people ? That would be in the same vein as Jews being proud Nazis.

[Hudobna]

47. Crazy Willian

Ciao Crazy Man William

Forgive me if I call you crazy man, but your anger has perhaps become a profession. You are on Internet, connected to the whole word and all the spirits of the world. For all your great great great grandfathers loved their spirits, well today you have them and the spirits of Chistianity, Allah, the Indian Pantheon, Judaism, Confudianism, Atheism, Zen, Shintoism.

You are richer, smarter, you live longer, eat better, travel further, you meet more people. You have great libraries, wonderful stores.

You I doubt would be happy to go back to what there was before Genocide.

If you think like this you will never be happy, but you will always have a way to make people who weren't even born and who are totally free of guilt quite unhappy.

Maybe it's a tiny very small invisible switch. Click. And you're all better.

I as a modern Italian have also lost the simplicity and purity of my ancestors. The visigoths came and killed half of Rome... The Church came and turned my proud gods into Saints.

Forgive me, but I don't believe in your sincerity. For me it is a posture.

And anyway... the boo boo will never get better.

[William Bloode]

53. Wow thats the most racist thing....

I have seen all day. I guess since i have a television and a computer everything is alright now????????? I should be happy that my people who once covered the whole continent can now barely be seen, because i can now eat at McDonald's????????

And who the heck are you to assume which life would make me more happy????? A life full of oppression, pollution, and corruption is better than a real free life in tribal settings??????? To you maybe, but not i.

Now can you imagine what might be said if you said the same of the Jews?

I think you are a freep in disguise and will soon be gone.

Your Roman analogy does not fit either. If you knew your history Rome was eaten by it's own corruption, not by genocide, with the complicity of the government. The Goths endured many years of Roman oppression, and what they did was payback not genocide, as they did not seek to destroy Rome, just take it for themselves.

I'd tell you where to stick it, but unfortunately i am just a tad more polite than you seem to be.

>>edit for spelling<<

[ultraist]

56. I think you nailed it!

Only a matter of time before others see what you have seen.

[Hudobna]

69. Ciao Again William

Ciao William,

I'm sorry that you are so upset. If your outrage is so great for what I have said, then it makes little sense to discuss.

I am only an opinion, maybe a wrong one being expressed at 3:30 AM in the morning February 8, 2005 from Rome. Can you survive it?

What is a freep? My knowledge of English is pretty good, but the acronyms besides LOL I don't know.

May I continue?

Thank you. Let me start by saying something outrageous.

You and your people have been vanquished and transcended. All of us have been vanquished and transcended. You may hang on with both hands and teeth, but you will gain nothing but further anger of the kind that you already show.

If you prefer to be a Jew who will hate Germans for eternity or an Italian from Istria who will hate the Croats and Slovenes until Judgment day or a Sicilian who will curse the Arabs forever, or a Korean who will always want nothing but the worst for the Japanese, or an Indian who will perennially hate the British... go ahead.

I live in Europe where rivers of blood have been spilled, entire populations wiped out or forcably moved. But today we have a united Europe. Where my grandfather killed French, now I go without a passport and the train crosses those rivers of blood and skeletons and rusty cannons stuck in the mud.

It enters Southern France where 1 baby in three is a Muslim, coming from North Africa. Different world... not the world my grandfather fought for and not even the world the poor French man he was shooting fought for. Both transcended.

You will not get your endless properties back.
I sincerely believe that you wouldn't even want them. It is hard (but not impossible) to have internet in a Teepee. You yourself probably prefer a car to a horse, a phone and Bluetooth to smoke signals.

They were great things your ancestors had, beautiful things, and what can be remembered and what can be good for you it is your duty to maintain. The rest you must forget.

Very sad. In many ways very brutal. The old ways are gone, William.

The white man had no right to come, but he came, just as the red man probably came from Asia. The white man was better organized than your people. And when they came the white man debated whether your people were even humans. Imagine how stupid the white man was. In America the white man decided only 140 years ago that black people were human.

You may wonder. Are white people human? Yes unfortunately, we are human too.

And now what about all those Mexicans and Vietnamese and Portughese and Arabs? Are they human? Yes. They are human too.

Do we look forward or do we look back?

If you only look back than the Poles hate the Germans and the Italians hate the Croats and the Indians hate the English and the Indonesians hate the Dutch.

If we think like you, humanity enters a pit without bottom. Tribal wars between innocents armed with ancestral atavic hatreds.

It would have been better to win the west knowing what we know today, but it didn't happen that way and you cannot turn back the clock.

You will not get your culture back. You can only pretend as you are pretending now to be angry.

I am certain that as you enjoy the self-evidently superior communications and transportation methods of the modern world, you even order a Big Mac without troubling yourself with the glorious days of great great grandfather.

I am certain that in your heart, as an Indian you are eager and happy to know all there is to know about your heritage. But if it was all given back to you, land, buffalo, holy grounds, rituals... you would feel uncomfortable.

You and your people have been beaten. So have my people. So have their people. It is painful, unjust.

Time and distance themselves have been beaten, pulverised. Gravity has been beaten, the moon has been invaded, Mars has been violated.

Do not pretend to miss dancing around a fire while chatting with an old Roman girl, just as I will not pretend to miss the sacrifice of Vestal Virgins that was taken away from me...

I repeat William. I accuse you of falsity. You may hate me. I think you already do.

Everything will never be all right, with TV or without. Your people did not once cover the whole continent. You were not a single people. Your people were also at war with one another. Like Tuscans and Umbrians, Piedmontese and Genovese.

The Turks under Mustafa Kara emptied out almost all of Romania and Hungary and reached all the way to Poland. Now Turkey wants to enter Europe. 800,000 soldiers among British, French and Germans died in just one single battle of world war one.

Just thing if everyone with a historical grievance had your hatred, your righteous hatred, your perfectly justified but now hopelessly fake political rage?

It would be the end of civilization.

You lost William, the air lost, the land lost with the highways that you drive on, the chirping of the birds lost with the sounds of industry, the old ways lost in the face of far far more fantasic ways, the pace of time lost with instant intercontinental communications.

And now even your anger is lost... You will find many generous ears, many nodding heads, much sympathy... but you yourself know that it will all come to nothing.

Better the brutal truth, than pretty lies

[fishwax]

84. Well, that's rather condescending

you might be surprised to know that there are actually people who still hold to traditional ways, and live quite fine without the internet and burger king, thank you very much. It's also quite disingenuous to compare fighting between the French and Italians with the near genocide of the American Indian, particularly since Native Americans, generally speaking, still live beneath the boot of American oppression. That isn't blind rage or fake anger, it's history. And you don't have to love America or forgive it for its sins in order to appreciate broadband.

[ultraist]

88. I agree, and what about "white men were more organized" WTF?

It's a poser!

[fishwax]

90. No kidding, wtf!

I agree with you that WB had this one pegged.

[Hudobna]

94. You forgot the "t"

I am not a poser. You forgot a "t". I am a poster. Believe me I work very hard to make my English as good or better than native English speakers. If you want to debate in Italian, just tell me.

The only problem you have is answering the right or wrong things that I write, with real arguments. I accept to be made a fool. If I didn't I would not express my opinions.

Arguing about everything freely is the favorite Italian sport along with calcio.

In Latin what you are doing is a logical fallacy called "ad hominem."

What we are makes no difference. Maybe I am a robot from space or an automatically generated Javascript or a new talking model of refrigerator from Fujitsu.

So answer me back like a new talking model of dishwasher manufactured by Philips, and not like simplified old version of late 1980's doll with limited vocabulary.

"Poser - Pig - Racist"

At least update your artificial intelligence.

[Cleita]

85. All I can say is that most Italians I know would think you are

a pig.

[E_Smith]

92. that is some cold shit.

wow, that is definitely condescending and unfortunate. I guess the term PC hasn't reached Italy yet?

[Hudobna]

93. Aztecs and Etruscans

Salute E_Smith,

Very cold shit. But some shit is better cold than hot and stinking. If for no other reason than because kept cold it will last longer and not spread germs.

The problem for me was not the Indians of which I know little except for a book I have with the pictures of Walla Walla, Umatilla, Wisham, Cayuse and Apsaroke and many others.

Beautiful and haunting pictures, of real people. I want to hug them each... I would like to invent an alternative earth for each and let them live for eternity according to their ways.

The problem for me was the concept of guilt, loss, anger.

I believe it is foolish for people to feel hatred or guiltiness for the crimes of ancestors. I believe it is better to know how to lose and move ahead.

I don't like the Spanish coming to South America and killing Aztecs, but now Aztecs are history and I would not be happy to see them come back and pull hearts out of living people to make sacrifices to their Gods in the name of PC. I don't think even William or the person here who called me a pig could live happily in this world of Internet, knowing that the New Aztecs were raiding villages and sacrificing their captive enemies by the dozens and dozens.

It is good for heirs of Aztec culture to study their great past civilization and certainly be proud of the achievements and mysteries, but it is infinitely stupid to construct a heritage of hatred and not a future of amicableness, a future based on self-evidently better principles than both victims and invaders.

I am sorry for the great Etruscans who disappeared, but I would not have much time for them if they wish to redo their sacrifices in Tarquinia, just outside the last toll booth of the highway between Rome and Civitavecchia. It would be even more silly if they were informed of that sacrifice via Internet and drove on that highway aboard an Alfa Romeo to be on time to see the heart pulled out.

This is cold shit. But the alternative, as I suggested is hot shit. Just stinking hatred that by its definition will never end because it cannot end, unless to regain old rights you are willing to murder millions of people and go back to old and quaint and primitive ways.

The "romantic" stamina for that would fade even before it started... and you would have brutal Indian wars. You would also have Black negro people looking at white people as slave takers and not as human beings who enjoy and share all the beautiful things that have become of Black Negro people.

Do not mistake what I say for supporting slavery or genocide.

Slavery and Genocide still happen in Sudan and Mali. It is in the news. Both sides are primitive in a way. I believe that it must be stopped. Do you?

The very primitive Sudanese Sharia Muslims are using the Coran to justify their acts. There are many old verses in that book that regulate slavery and taking of war booty and even women as possessions. Is that to be tolerated in the name of PC?

We are now foolishly being taught that "old spirits" are wonderful. Yes maybe they are, but in today's world only in romanticized pick-and-choose white people version.

Are you happy with untouchables of India or practice of Suttee? I support the Hindu Indian's own determination to change these old and cruel very Hindu practices in the name of justice and civilization.

Who would be a pig, just standing there, watching a new widow being pushed into the fire or a dark skinned Indian boy, maybe with an IQ bigger than Einsten being left outside the gates of his school?

I have no respect for Iranian or North Nigerian culture that puts a young woman into a pit and has men standing around her throwing rocks while screaming Allahu Akhbar.

If you can stand there and watch and enjoy the spectacle of some ancient culture then you also justify the Nazis who will perhaps one day rise up again in the name of Thor and Wotan and in the name of their equally cruel mores and customs start raiding "lesser" peoples.

I say it again. If you follow the hate in William's heart, if you justify it and let it breed, the consequences are stupid, violent, counter-productive, hypocritical.

Unfortunately I already saw the result of it here on this forum where, though perhaps 100% wrong, my village was raided and I was killed by an angry person (gratefully clicking only a mouse), calling me a pig.

What most Italians would think of me makes no difference. Most Italians went into the Piazzas cheering for a madman. 35% of Italians after the war were fervently on the side of Stalin who starved half the farmers of Ucraine.

I prefer to speak cold shit logic, then the warm and reactionary stinking shit of the new slavemakers of guilt.

[fishwax]

109. well isn't that melodramatic

your village was raided and you were killed. Yes, some poster said most Italians he knew would call you a pig, and that is indeed very similar to the distribution of blankets infected with small pox to Native Americans. I only hope you can recover without the hatred in your heart that you so easily find in everyone else. Sheesh. But hey, as long as your having fun.

[Hudobna]

112. Ciaol Fishwax

Ciao Fishwax,

I did not put smallpox into your great great grandfather's blanket. My father and not even my grandfather were born yet.

I will not feel senseless guilt for it.

You want to live your life with your great great great grandfather's smallpox infected blanket? Be my guest. Enjoy.

What can I do to make it better? (please don't just answer "drop dead").

NOTHING and you know it!

Should the Irish fishermen attacked for centuries by the Vikings live with the eternal hatred of Norway?

Take your anger and your hatred apply it to all begrieved cultures.

The real point is that in your practical life, grandpapa's poisoned blanket doesn't mean a damned nothing to you.

It's a pose, a posture to sustain an attitude.

If my brother steals your car why blame me? If someone with a white face hundreds of years ago did something to your great great great great nonno (grandpa), what do you want from me? Melanina injections in my face?

I wasn't there. The dead must bury the dead. Instead like Orthodox Jews and Sharia Muslims you think in terms of cursed tribes, chosen and unchosen people, Mushrinki...

You don't know it. I bet you are even an atheist, but you are thinking in a very Orthodox Biblical way. The gult of races! The guilt of generations! The guilt of clans! The guilt of peoples!

Sorry for the smallpox in the blanket... Sorry also for the firewater... Now thank me, pale face woman in Rome for inventing scuba diving and the steamship.

Once you begin thinking that way, there is no end to the nonsense, just as there is no end to the anger.

[fishwax]

114. I don't have hatred, you assume too much

you seem to fill yourself with assumptions not warranted by facts. I didn't express anger or hatred or ask you to feel guilt. I said that it was melodramatic to compare someone on a message board indirectly calling you a pig to having your village raided and destroyed and your life taken away. Based on that you've made sweeping assumptions about my race, my religion, and my "attitude." That's pretty silly. But as long as you're having fun.

The oppression of Native Americans is not a matter of centuries past, but rather is still a very recent memory in historical terms. In fact, it is something that continues to today. Righteous anger, dear Hudobna, which you so easily dismiss as counterproductive, has indeed been a powerful tool in alleviating the social injustices here in America, from getting women the vote to officially recognizing Native sovereignty to ending Jim Crow laws. These reforms came about as a result of righteous anger. And their remains cause for righteous anger, whether it is over the disenfranchisement of African Americans in Florida in 2000 which resulted in a stolen election, or attempts on behalf of the powerful to eliminate provisions which protect minorities, the environment, and the poor, or the exploitation of resources and individuals in third world countries so that we can have cheap tennies and drive SUVs.

Just out of curiosity, Hudobna, do you think we were right to go into Afghanistan, or should we have just let go of the eternal hatred? What about Iraq? Say, what time is it in Rome, anyway?

[E_Smith]

113. your flaw is in your style

your style is condescending, at times racially inflammatory, and shows a general lack of empathy. that is why you are being called names. it is possible to make all of your points without this style problem (i.e. lack of PC). logically you are making some sense, but you are insulting in that you demand that william erase his feelings about his ancestors being wiped out. he never said he hated America, or hated white people, you projected all of that. he simply said he wasn't proud to be American. maybe he is more proud of his heritage? it is possible to live in the modern world but not love it. and your statements such as "your people lost" or "were transcended" amount to little more than salt in the wounds. get a grip.

[William Bloode]

125. His style is a cover...

If you look at some of the stuff he posted it shows more intimate knowledge than would be available to someone in Italy, i.e. "pale face", "firewater" and a few others. He disgusts me so much i won't read his bile, nor will i respond to such an insensitive cretin.

He fails to see or realize the pain felt by my people and i is not some long forgotten bad memory. My own grandparents had horror stories of reeducation schools where they were humiliated, intimidated, abused both mentally, and physically. Not to mention the racism that has existed. He has no idea what it was or is like to have to watch many of those old "cowboy and Indian" flicks, and endure their racist attitudes. Not to mention foolish crap like people meeting you for the first time to find you don't actually speak like>>>>"How, white man"<<<< or that the thoughts that a single drink of alcohol turns us into raving suicidal maniacs.

He is too full of himself and his own ideals to even consider what someone else feels.

And no for the record i don't hate white people, brown people, or yellow people. I just find it hard to be proud of a government and system that not only allowed this, but encouraged it, and then spent the next 100yrs or so making excuses. I and others know full well that at the time many people of all colors opposed what was going on, but in the end greed and power won out. If it had not been for more than a few independant thinking whites who hid some of my forefathers for yrs i nore my family would be here today.

All i can say is he was very good at making assuptions, and we all know what they say about people that just "assume". You make and Ass of u and me.

[E_Smith]

133. i think "she" might actually be ignorant.

if she is putting on a cover then its pretty convincing. i was thinking she might actually just be ignorant and even well-intentioned. but you're probably right, we're being conned by a freeper-- if so, may "she" choke on her next serving of freedom fries.

[SmokingJacket]

41. I only feel proud of things I had something to do with.

I love this country, at least what it was until recently, and I really really don't want to leave it. I love the ideas behind the constitution, and I love its history (with a few key exceptions, like the genocide of the Indians).

There is a meaning of the word "pride" which has grown to mean "lack of shame" -- but for me, that doesn't exactly apply either.

[kohodog]

42. Because we're going to take this thing called democracy back.

We'll fight to the end, but damn it we will not surrender to these pretenders. They cannot claim the name of America without a fight.

[Eric J in MN]

60. When? nt

nt

[kohodog]

63. now, before it's too late. n/t

[tralfaz]

43. Because

there are very few countries in this world that will let people like us bitch and complain and call the president any name that we want and not face a prison term or firing squad for voicing those same opinions.

[Cleita]

46. That's coming. What you think is a right today is

becoming rarer. The free speech zones imposed on protesters is just a start. All the security things being installed are really there to keep an eye on you. If something goes wrong, they will round up a few scapegoats to blame it on. It doesn't have to be the persons who actually did the act, just someone suspicious on a videocam.

[Modem Butterfly]

64. Have you traveled much outside the US?

[Darranar]

78. Okay. Let's assume that America is a land of freedom...

(which it's not, but I'll grant it) and that never, ever, has it ever gone against the core moral principles that word espouses (which I'm sure pretty much anyone would agree is a stretch.)

Why does that mean that the fact that you happened to be born in America is something to be "proud" of? It isn't something to be ashamed of either, but it doesn't make any sense that being born in a particular place is a matter of pride....

[cire4]

91. Very few countries??? Are you f***** kidding me?????

Let's review all the countries that have free speech/freedom to criticize government

United Kingdom
Ireland
Australia
Canada
New Zealand
France
Spain
Portugal
Belgium
Netherlands
Germany
Switzerland
Italy
Denmark
Sweden
Norway
Finland
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Croatia
Solvenia
Poland
Hungary
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Ukraine
Greece
Romania
Bulgaria
Austria
Iceland
Israel
Bosnia
Japan
South Korea
Thailand
India
Sri Lanka
South Africa
Kenya
Ethiopia
Nigeria
Senegal
Turkey
Phillipines
Singapore
Mexico
Costa Rica
Brazil
Argentina
Chile
Ecuador
Bolivia
Peru
Uruguay
Paraguay
Venezuela
Jamaica
Dominican Republic
Barbados
Panama
Guyana
Suriname
Nicaragua
Honduras
Trinidad & Tobago
Guatemala
El Salvador
Albania
Armenia
Serbia & Montenegro
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Vanuatu
Palau
Mongolia
Taiwan
Bangladesh
Fiji
Angola
Botswana
Ghana
Madagascar
Mali
Mozambique
Sierra Leone
Tanzania
Namibia
Belize
Grenada
Bahamas
Antigua
Russia (Yep, you are allowed to criticize Putin too)


You need to either travel abroad or stop buying American propaganda

[laura888]

48. M.L. King, Rock and Roll, Mark Twain

Just a few choice products out of the USA...

....and the landscape ain't bad either.

[Rebel_blogger]

52. The ability to say what we want to say ...

As much as some people in this forum like to spout off about having their civil rights infringed upon, in truly facist societies, we wouldn't be able to say the things we say here. This country isn't perfect, but it's pretty good overall.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ultraist]

68. Did you call me a racist? On what grounds Rebel boy?

Because I'm not in denial of the fact that our country is in serious trouble and stated that we need to work to change that?

You said things are pretty good, I said they are NOT. How is that racist?

[No Exit]

57. I'm sad to say

that since early 2003, I am not proud to be an American. My former pride has been replaced by a feeling of powerlessness and doom, as I watch my country being destroyed by the rape and plunder of this illegitimate administration.

[Grey Ranks]

61. I am Proud, and you should be too!

America was founded on freedom, liberty and justice. We have not always succeeded in upholding these noble goals. Nonetheless these principles, while universal to all humans, are unique in their use as the foundation of the American Nation.

After the last election, some people said Americans weren’t an ideological people. This is foolish. What can be more ideological than being founded on principles? People in Iran don’t get upset because something threatens their freedom.

As I said though, we have not always lived up to these goals. Our road to greatness runs with the blood of Native-Americans, Mexicans, Spanish, Cubans, Iranians, Chileans, Libyans, and the list goes on.

When we look at the whole picture though we see only improvement. Improvement from our great republic predecessor Rome, who not only had slavery, but who believed themselves worthy to conquer the world by providence. From our birth to now look at all we have done that does support freedom and liberty. We have ended slavery, a monumental task. We have accepted responsibility for our crimes against the Native American. In 1776 would Americans have been in the streets over an imperialistic invasion? I doubt it.

It is easy to get discouraged, we are seeing incredible set backs in our time. We are being forced to work hard against people who threaten our foundation. People on this thread have brought up the dangers of patriotism. I am patriotic, but not a nationalist. Blind Patriotism is the greatest enemy to our state than any terrorist. We are the greatest enemy to freedom we have ever faced. It is that way, and always will be.

Yes, I am proud. But, I also accept the awesome responsibility that comes with being an American Citizen. To my other citizens, to my nation, and the to the people of the world. I am sure I do not need to explain what these are, you are already aware. We can all agree though that invasion of another nation is not on the list. It is a betrayal of both our principles, and all those before us who sacrificed themselves for that aim.

I did not mean to by melodramatic, or bore any who read this. I know that is very long. There seemed many people on this thread that were not proud to be an American. I want to restore some hope, because if we give up our enemies will consolidate their power. If you are not proud, how can you live up the your responsibilities?

Democracy requires the action of its people. We can’t afford to get discouraged and give up because of Bush. Bush wants us to that. He uses the word freedom and Osama uses the word Allah. Please look at the big picture. Yes these actions disgraces us all, but are they so terrible that they destroy the pursuit of freedom, liberty and justice? So terrible, that we forsake our nation to Bush? So terrible, that we too turn our back on our forefathers, and everyone who has suffered and sacrificed to make this a more perfect union?

Thank you.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

65. I'm proud to be an American, because what America is

and what she has done. America is the greatest nation on Earth, and in spite of her problems, this is the best, freest place to be. You love your country like you love your own family. You take pride in your country, much the same way. Pride in your nation doesn't mean you can't criticize it.

[Modem Butterfly]

104. Have you traveled much?

America is the greatest nation on Earth, and in spite of her problems, this is the best, freest place to be.

Well, I disagree. America is home, of that there's no doubt, but I don't think you can compare nations on a scale of "better" or "worse". For instance, if you're sick, America isn't that great a place to be. If you're interested in living your private life without too much government involvement, the Netherlands may actually hold more freedom. If you're looking to really make a killing in business, by hook and by crook, Russia may be the best place for you. Japan has too many charms to list here, and don't get me started on Australia. The point isn't that these countries are "better" than the US, but they're different.

You love your country like you love your own family.

Heh. Maybe it's time for some tough love!

[Flammable Materials]

71. I'm not proud.

I'm an American because this is where my parents happened to be when they fucked me into existence.

[Hudobna]

74. Lucky you

Hello Mr. Flammable,

Fucking children into existence is easy, but mama then pressed you to her breast and changed your diapers when you screamed and taught you her language.

What you described is only how the sperm met the egg. And that could have happened in Haiti or Ulan Bator.

But all the rest is what made you American. Had you been born in Sudan, your chances of survival would have been far less.

You had schools and Biology classes with big microscopes, you had good water to drink... You were probably brought up in a house with more expired medicines in your bathroom cabinet than a Colombian campesino will see in a lifetime. You were entertained... You know about HTML and email... You drive cars studied to save your life in case of a crash.

Yes, mamma and papà fucked you into existence, hopefully with more love than the shocking lack of gratitude that you show to a great and beautiful country that gave you libraries and sports and 24 hour news and low airfare to everywhere... and people from around the whole world who could be your freinds (or enemies)... Who gave much much more good than bad.

You could've been born in a place that forces you to pray and forbids you religious and political freedom.

Yes, you were born where your parents happened to fuck you into existence, but if the sperms and eggs of all the world could talk and the voice of God asked them:

"Very well, I have an open position for America, who wants to be born there?" You would hear a great chorus of: "Me! Me! Me!"

[Modem Butterfly]

97. Congratulations!

Yes, you were born where your parents happened to fuck you into existence, but if the sperms and eggs of all the world could talk and the voice of God asked them:

"Very well, I have an open position for America, who wants to be born there?" You would hear a great chorus of: "Me! Me! Me!"

That has to be the dumbest thing ever posted on DU.

[Hudobna]

102. Io stupida?

Dear Modem Butterfly,

Before we start arguing, let me say I love your nickname!

You are not happy with American ideology. Especially that of the present moment. But, never mind talking sperms and eggs, I guarantee you that even most of the people who burn Am. flags and call for death to Satan would say "me me me" instantly for the green card lottery of your country.

Just money? No... hope and dignity. Education, jobs, house, no more endless hatreds of the old country. The ease... that special good thing that Americans have like - figuratively speaking of course - a discount on the original sin.

Here in Rome after the fall of Communism, there was a Polish immigrant at every street corner washing car windows for charity money. Most finally managed to make it America.

Their children will be inventing nanotechnologies to cure cancer one cell at a time or to make 1000 litres of fresh water out of the sea in less than a minute.

You cannot kill the American dream of the poor people of the world. Open your border and in two weeks your population would be 2 billion.

"Me me me" indeed. Unthinkingly, automatically, even with political hatred in their hearts and even with the same matches that burned your flag.

The truth is people who hate the same country you hate, actually love it more than you do as well.

[Modem Butterfly]

106. Nope, just your post

guarantee you that even most of the people who burn Am. flags and call for death to Satan would say "me me me" instantly for the green card lottery of your country.

I think it depends on where they are, as our recent substantial drop in new visa applications will attest. Moreover, people who live in the 3rd world are trying to get to the 1st world period. Islamic migration to France, for instance, has become their burning issue of the day.

Here in Rome after the fall of Communism, there was a Polish immigrant at every street corner washing car windows for charity money. Most finally managed to make it America.

Actually, America severely restricted immigration from behind the former "Iron Curtain" for years after the fall of Communism to all but the most highly educated. Most of those folks probably simply blended into local societies, as immigrants will do.

You cannot kill the American dream of the poor people of the world. Open your border and in two weeks your population would be 2 billion.

And yet the same could be said about France, Japan, Australia, Canada, any any other 1st world country. It's not an American dream the poor have, but a dream of a better life. It's not a reflection of how great the 1st world countries are but rather how desperate life is in other parts of the world. Not something to stake ones patriotism on in any event.

The truth is people who hate the same country you hate

What country do I hate?

:shrug:

[Hudobna]

111. Ciao again

Ciao again Modem Butterfly,

I went for a while for work/study in Eastern Europe (czech and Slovakia). Though of course they knew they had to enter Europe, the dreams of the youth were America, Australia and Canada in that order.

Of course poor poor people are happy to get out and go anywhere from their misery. But if - and I say an impossible if - they could choose from a menu, I have no doubt that they would not choose the banlieus of Paris or the Esquilino neighborhood of Rome, but America.

Islamic migration to Italy is also the burning issue of the day here. It is a big and important question because of the different values and outlooks of our cultures.

Judeo-Christian-secular-athiest and Sharia do not mix very easily... and it is not just a matter of kerchiefs on the head, but in every sphere.

Last year the Imam of Rome's gigantic Mosque, the biggest in Europe, was kicked out for preaching suicide bombing and cursing entire populations. An infiltrated Arab speaking journalist recorded the sermon and sent it to Rome's leftwing daily "La Repubblica"... It caused a big sensation.

Now the Catholics are asking why there is a huge mosque in the capital of Catholic Christianity and not even a priest can bless a Filipino worker who dies in the heat of Saudi Arabia while spreading hot asphalt to build a road.

I don't want to start a race war. I have already started one with the Indians and the Irish... but it IS a good question.

Yes, you have touched on the number one big question of Italy and France.But never mind.

What country do you hate?

I don't know... I was responding more to "you" plural... such a pain in the ass pronoun you have. I say you and you don't know if I mean just you or all of you.

In the next referendum vote to change you plural into "vosotros"

Salute

[harlinchi]

101. Hudobna, you make me smile. Thank you for your intelligent

perspective. I agree that we should be proud to be American (or Italian, as the case may be). I am a Black American with Native American (Micmac and Cherokee) and Irish American great-grandparents. It seems to me that my ancestors have experienced the very worst offered by the U.S. If one were to rank the groups treated most egregiously by this country the first (or worst) three positions would go to Native Americans, Blacks and Irish Americans, in that order. Nevertheless I am proud becasue this country attempted to improve from its inception (3/5 compromise) through the Civil War; from the Civil War through the Civil Rights Movement; from the establishment of Social Security through the year 2001. Improvement stopped then, in my mind.

When I was born (in 1960) water fountains and bathrooms still existed in this country that said 'Whites Only'. Murders, beatings, rapes and other horrible actions were taken by whites against Blacks with no penalty. Imagine the horror of a pretty Black teenage girl from Mississippi whose family was in debt to the local white powerhouse. How secure was her dignity, her chastity? How easy was it for her to be taken advantage of while the powerhouse (or his sons or nephews) forced himself on her, all the while asserting to all who would listen that, "She wanted it. They all do". While such thoughts anger me, I take pride that those days are over, Mr. Byrd's dragging death in Texas notwithstanding.

I do wonder why our constitution still (in 2005) has provisions for Native Americans on reservations or why reservations themselves exist. I still wonder who is getting paid for mis-administering the Bureau of Indian Affairs or why such a Bureau exists.

I am more afraid of what Mr. Bush has done and will do to our country than I am of non law-enforcement racists. Of course law-enforcement racists are another matter. I am more afraid to see the world figuratively turn its back on this country than I am to see whites scrambling to rip-off more Native Americans through their casino dealings; the Indians will wake up eventually. As long as the country exists in something like its current form, it will correct Mr. Bush's errors. The big trick will be for us to survive as a country and minimize the damage done until then.

[Hudobna]

108. Salute

Ciao Harlinchi,

Thank you for your kind words.

Now I envy your finely mixed up races. I wish I had more than Piedmontese and Sicilian in me. I don't know American Indians. I have never met one, but now even in Italy we have many black people from Nigeria and Senegal and Ethiopia and Somalia.

I remember when Italians made fun of America's racism... Now we are the racists. Yes, we certainly are.

But I prefer a good honest and joyous clash of civilizations than the suspicious silence of the right thinkers. Treat every man and woman as a brother and sister as best as you can. And you know how brothers and sisters quarrel, but then are still very very attached.

You are lucky in America. You don't like Bush? He will have to go any way in 4 years. Imagine having Fidel Castro for 45 years and the only change in sight his brother?!

The important thing is alternation. Here in Italy, for fear of the Communists we had the Christian Democrats for more than 40 years. And even they had a system of "concertazione" with the Comunists where the politicians only pretended to fight, but then divided the whole country.

Things got so bad and corrupt that the Radical Party (my favorite party) as a provocation put Cicciolina the porno movie star as a candidate. When she won a seat in Parliamnent, they called her the cleanest person in Parliament. At least she was an honest whore!

So now you have Mr. Bush, next time you will have Mr. Dean. The important thing is Democracy and alternation, and I believe, the firm conviction that there will never be some Socialist or religious or technological Shangrila, but always the need for moderation, compromise, patience, ideals, struggle, hope.

I am not fond of Utopias... and that is one of the biggest things I admire about the American people. You don't love fancy intellectuals (with beards and baggy pants) like we foolish and fancy Europeans do.

You are practical minded. I see the Italian political panorama and all I get is fried air in a language full of secret codes that only the experts can begin to understand.

If our politicians went to the USA and ran for government office, people would probably throw beer cans at them.

You will survive as a country. You democrats make a big fuss about that. People are surviving under far worse conditions. You put to much drama into political conviction.

One of the best things I like about Italy is that sometimes we have a fallen government for months and the country goes on perfectly fine. Of course that is a luxury of a small place that doesn't matter much in the world. In that perhaps we have even more freedom than you Americans... Yes, what we do doesn't matter.

Thank you for talking to me Harlinchi. Be careful about the Irish in you! Now there's a dangerous people!

[harlinchi]

115. Will there be a next time?

What's up, Hudobna,
The thing many folks wonder is will there be a next time? Has the multiple frauds perpetrated upon this country result in a DE facto dictatorship? If our elections are called into question as a result of having only two companies involved in vote tallying, unverified code in voting machines, a co-opted 'free' press, official lies resulting in the expenditure of over $300 billion and the fact that many of our former allies now war plan AGAINST us, will America be able to recover? If Senate majority leaders feel empowered enough to speak longingly and wistfully about segregation, if presidents feel comfortable sacrificing more than 1400 military lives to 'promote democracy' when will it end? Will it end?

[Hudobna]

120. Ciao again Harlnchi

Deat Harlinchi,

Maybe I'm wrong, but it is my impression that you exaggerate your fears. America going back to segregation? I once read an article, I think about a year ago where the town of San Diego officially banned the word "minority" because every group from blue-black to lily with freckles was a minority, so why bother?

You will have strong disagreements, times of extra tension, but you will not have dictatorship.

You know it's funny. Like I said before at Democratic Underground (and I would like to know why the people here imagine themselves in a sort of artificial catacombs) I'm not so sure that you should envy all the political parties that we have and that you don't.

It is true, in Italy I can vote from Ultra-Fascist to Ultra-Communist, but paradoxically, very little happens whereas you can only vote Pepsi or Coca Cola, but you have a rich, ground level, townhall tradition of opinion movements.

So if we want green movement, or gay liberation, or no nuke, or whatever, we who have all the ideologues, look to you who have all the students and movements.

I don't say that Europe is idle or dead, but for good and for ill, America is the restless motor of change and invention. America simply has too much energy, too much diversity, too much debate for risking dictatorship.

You don't like the official press? You invent blogs and put the big corporations out of business. You had 100 TV channels when European nations only had two state channels... believe me far far WORSE than big corporations!

My sensation is that Americans are discovering too much long-bearded and baggy pants utopian ideology and compare their present situation (which is a mess, was always a mess and will always be a mess) with some very vague and loose idea of perfection, instead of more sane, level headed, rational and - yes - even patient and honest - people politics.

Like not even the vulgarity, cynicism and stupdity of Romans will ever diminish the allure of this city, not even the wrong politics of this or that administration will wreck American Democracy. In other words, you are good to be vigilant, to complain, but I think you are wrong to undersell the power of your people.

[harlinchi]

123. Just a brief response...

Hi again. Two quick thoughts (OK, three -- the first is I wish I was as expressive in another language as you are in English). The second is that I don't fear the segregation will recur. I fear that powerful folks wish for its return and FEEL COMFORTABLE talking about it. The last is that just because some folks self-identify themselves as a minority and even though in fact they are a numerical minority doesn't make them one in the sense of being a persecuted minority. In this country there are two: Native Americans and Blacks. Others have felt the heat -- Irish Americans, Italian Americans Jewish Americans. All have felt the heat for a time. Never have they experienced the fire of extermination or enslavement.

[shrike]

131. I appreciate your perspective

But there are times when I wish we listened a bit more to the baggy pants, bearded intellectual. There has been a rising current on anti-intellectualism in this country -- dumb is cool. And don't forget, some of those baggy-pants intellectuals spoke out against Hitler and Mussolini before it was fashionable to do so. They also brought you the computers you love so much (Jobs and Gates weren't the only ones on the front lines) and the cancer cures you look forward to. They include Thoreau, Jefferson, and others.

I certainly hope you're right about the current administration. The more I learn of their misdeeds, the more shame I feel for this country.

[Rex]

72. Because I can separate the Bush Family Evil Empire

from the country in which I live. I am an American, Bush has betrayed the Constitution and no longer deserves to be called an American.

[Rex]

73. Because I can separate the Bush Family Evil Empire

from the country in which I live. I am an American, Bush has betrayed the Constitution and no longer deserves to be called an American.

[leesa]

76. I am not proud of America. I am deeply ashamed of my country.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

77. pride goeth before the fall

[deadparrot]

82. The way I see it is

I can't be proud of something I had no control over. It's not like I despise the fact I'm American, or that I hate America (though I am becoming more and more ashamed of the United States' position in the world). I'm just not particularly proud of it, like I'm not proud of my hair color or eye color or birthdate. I couldn't help being born in the United States, I did no work to become American. I was just born here, so I was given citizenship. I'm just not proud of something I didn't do anything to earn.

[cubschicago]

89. I'm not sure if you've been abroad, but that could change your opinion

When I had studied abroad in 2000, before any excessive anti-American had developed, there were incidents of American-bashing in Europe that I observed. At that point, I was not extremely pro-American though I was born in America and lived most of my life here. But at that time, I realized that many other first-world countries were not much ethically better than we were. (Granted this was the time of Clinton) At that time, I decided to defend my country at any time that I felt mocked or ridiculed. There were many incidents when I didn't even speak the language and had to use my facial expressions to indicate that though I was American I deserved respect.

I don't know if I would say that I was proud to be American because of my experience. But that is when I determined that being American was nothing to be ashamed of, after-all I am very proud of my own morals -- And I'm American. Unfortunately, it may not be likely that our country will ever be ethically perfect, especially in the treatment of third-world countries - there are some bright spots in the ethically challenged America we live in today -- and those bright spots are you and me. The ones who believe in democracy even in a time when it seems we've lost all hope. And the ones that, hopefully, will take action to try to rebuild the name of what an American is that B*sh has so horribly destroyed.

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I prefer not to think this B*sh Era as what it is to be American and don't anticipate this Era to last very long. There will be a better day for America and I'm sure at that time, there will be more of a consensus to be proud to American.

[Modem Butterfly]

96. As a matter of fact, I have lived abroad

It's this perspective that made me realize America isn't the be all and end all of world cultures.

[neebob]

105. Yeah, I'm proud

that I happened to be born here and then sucked up all the false history and patriotic bullshit that's been heaped in front of me ever since I can remember. Then I willingly jumped into the machine like the faceless, revenue-generating spare part that I am. Quite an accomplishment. America's the best!

[twenty2strings]

110. It was the best of times and it was the worst of times...

I love. I hate. I'm proud. I'm ashamed. The Romans built great roads and impressive structures. In the words of Milton Nasciomento,"nothing will be as it was,tomorrow". All of our mindsets are obstacles to truth. Avoid the true believers and the hopeless cynics. Love the best you can. Seek truth. Stay cheerful and Keep your sense of humor.:bounce:

[neebob]

135. Are you saying I'm a hopeless cynic?

Because I'm actually quite passionate in my belief that the state we're in is largely due to people sucking up the false history and bullshit and jumping into the machine and not asking really basic questions like, "Is this okay?" and "What's so great about this, really?"

What's to be proud of is a really valuable question, in my opinion.

[arwalden]

116. How Can Any Second-Class Citizen Actually Be "Proud" Of Their Country?

[harlinchi]

117. I guess that depends on what is a 'second-class' citizen. I wonder if

your definition would agree with the definition of those you include. Does being Black make me a second -class citizen to you? It does not to me. Perhaps you might expand the definition...

[arwalden]

118. What's Not To Understand?

>> Does being Black make me a second -class citizen to you? It does not to me. <<

Only if being Black means that you're not permitted to adopt a child, or serve in the military, or marry the person you love, or inherit property or get retirement pension benefits.

I don't really think the definition of what a 2nd class citizen is needs to be "expanded". Seems to me that obviously it would apply to ANYONE for whom the government denies equal access, equal benefits, and equal protection.

[Modem Butterfly]

121. Don't forget legally protected discrimination in employment, education...

...housing, healthcare and pretty much every other area you care to mention.

No wonder gay people are standing up and saying, "Stop! You're KILLING us!

[harlinchi]

122. OK. That sounds good to me, too.

But what if I tend to get stopped by the police because of my race. Is that 'equal' protection? What if, as a Black farmer, I DON'T have equal access to the loans and supports available to other farmers? What if I don't have equal access to health care?

It sounds like you're talking about gays. I'd agree with you. If I was gay and wanted to serve in the military (although I can't imagine why) I should be able to. Gay life partners should have 'life partner' or marriage benefits, retirement or otherwise.

I agree with you. I think that gays, male or female who are in what they believe will be a lifetime relationship should have the ability to interact with the Social Security (for as long as it lasts) Administration, the US military and other organizations to which they currently are denied access. My exception would be the Boy Scouts. I know it sounds bad; it probably is but it's how I feel.

By the way, if I am using a term inappropriately or offensively, please let me know.

[arwalden]

126. Thanks For Writing Back...

>> But what if I tend to get stopped by the police because of my race. Is that 'equal' protection? What if, as a Black farmer, I DON'T have equal access to the loans and supports available to other farmers? What if I don't have equal access to health care? <<

That's outright bigotry and racist policies, and it's wrong. That type of institutionalized bigotry is also powerful and it has a devastating impact on those affected. Fortunately there are laws in place that prohibit and help to discourage those things.

>> By the way, if I am using a term inappropriately or offensively, please let me know. <<

I used most of them interchangably (Life-partner, partner, husband, wife, s.o.) you haven't offended me.

[harlinchi]

124. But are you? Proud, I mean...

I am. Of course if my wife dies, I think I'd get something from the SSA, I was able to serve in the US Army Reserves and I probably get other benefits denied those of a different orientation.

[arwalden]

128. Not Particularly... No.

I see no reason in particular to be proud of this country itself, or of being proud for what it stands for. Frankly, this country embarrasses me.

I also have no reason to be personally proud of being an American as it is something that's bestowed upon me simply for being born in this country, I really didn't have a choice in the matter, nor did I work for it. It's no great accomplishment of mine so there's really nothing to be proud of.

[harlinchi]

129. Maybe it's because I can feel pride vicariously...

When I see a child perform well under pressure (a school play in front of a crowd, etc.) I feel pride for the child and for their parents. It makes me smile to see a grown couple hand-in-hand on a sunny day.

Remember that 'laughing sack' that, when a button was pressed caused a roaring laugh to be played? Remember how it just made one laugh out loud? A stranger's smile can bring one to my face.

If I had a child who did many bad things and some good as well, should I not feel pride in the good?

No, I understand that being an American is no great accomplishment. It is the good accomplishments of America for which we should feel pride or, at least for which I feel pride. I'd submit that a large measure of shame should exist as well.

[Hugin]

127. I've made my contributions...

... and they were good. I'm proud of the part of America I've
made. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have even been able to make
them in most other places.

[Stop_the_War]

130. I'm really ASHAMED of being American.......

[simcha_6]

132. I'm not

I guess I'm not particularly proud to be an American. It's interesting, I think a good nation is one that people can love more than themselves. I, however, cannot translate what I love (family, friends, my home town) into America, and the things I love about America (religious freedom, freedom of speech) are counteracted by the eclipse of these values or other problems with America.

So it comes down to this. If we woke up tomorrow and the Chinese were invading the West coast, I couldn't join the army. I'd be too concerned about my own life, so I'd rather live under occupation than die.

It disturbs me, however, that I don't live in a nation that I'd lay down my life for. My joining the army would be based on whether the enemy was genocidal or merely power hungry, not the nature of the U.S.

So no, I'm not particularly proud to be an American, because the negative things about America overshadow the good things, and the good things I don't equate with America. I'm just too small minded, I guess,

[wtbymark]

134. Thank you thank you thank you Hudobna

finally an international face- i completely agree with her. All of us here should take a giant lesson in how to be american from Hudobna. I almost moved to Belgique to marry and was in a fight the first night i was in the country because i was holding a blue passport. I became accustomed to the European way of life and it is a very tolerant one. I've almost forgotton how when i came back to this country i thought i was in the USSR, i hated this place, but the european thought within me said that the hate is so stupid, it was the american in me that hated this place. And she is 100% correct in noting that if we persist in this hate for our fellow countrymen (freeper or not) it only puts us further on the road to destruction. We are supposed to be progressive and tolerant- hey i know its tuff these days, i feel it too, so much resentment for **, BUT SHE's RIGHT, it's not what made us great. I welcome Hudobna and want to see her opinion here more. And don't think i dont love this country, my anscestors moved here in 1722, my mother is a DAR and i have some famous patriots in my tree, but ya know- they were all european too, they all saw the destruction of such thoughts, thats why they built this country. I know exactly what Hudobna means, and its true tolerance, i would love to have more conversations with her about America, she does understand. Sometimes i think we've lost our fucking mind, thats why i picked up and moved to Vermont because its about as far out of the country as you can get without being out of the country. Get a grip and recognize wisdom when you see it - rant over~