If given the chance, would you torture a prisoner of war?

[mopaul]

Seems like a ridiculous question on the surface, yet, seemingly normal people just like you and me took great glee in torturing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. How does a person go from average Joe, to Joseph Mengele?

Does a person have a pre-disposition to torture another? Are there some people who are not bothered by remorse or guilt or empathy to the agony's of torture? Is there a secret torturer hiding deep inside all of us, just waiting for the right opportunity to emerge?

Is there a sick, sexual element to it? The rush of being in complete control of another human being, of holding the power of life and death and pain? Does it give the torturer a charge and a thrill that no other activity can produce?

Could it be that we now have a president who is one of these torturers? Lyndie England proved that torturers can be charming and amiable on the surface, and appear to be just the girl next door. You can't tell a torturer by looking at the cover.

How would you react if your own son or daughter, in the heat of war, became a torturer? Or if your own son or daughter fell into the hands of torturers? Is it possible that you yourself could become a person who enjoys torturing another person?

This is what we talk about these days in bushAmerica. And it's a sick fucking state of affairs.

[Truebrit71sbruv]

1. Not such a ridiculous question at all...

...but one that cuts to the quick. Indeed, what is it that "turns" people. I would venture that whilst we would all like to view ourselves as fundamentally moral and capable at all times of cogent thought and a clear understanding of right and wrong, there is a price paid under the circumstances of war. That of dehumanisation - both of the individual and of the adversary.

Perhaps, once you, in lengthy training and indoctrination, cease to be a human being but a "military unit" or "asset" normal rules of existence cease to apply.

I was talking with my brother about this very subject, discussing how apparently educated and civilised individuals could become a guard at Auschwitz. I don't think there are simple and easy answers to this. Once the persecuted cease to be "human" how then do you treat them? Once you cease to be anything other than a cog in a war machine where does one draw the line of morally justifiable behaviour?

We are all sentient, we are all capable of rational and moral thought. But we are also deprogrammable and reprogrammable. Situation, propaganda, indoctrination and a morally ambiguous view of the adversary all play their part in forming patterns of behaviour.

There is a very good novel that explores exactly this kind of breakdown in a group of school-children stranded on an island - "Lord of the Flies" by William Golding. Very dark, and worth a read.

[mopaul]

3. I like to think I could never torture another person, but......

who knows? I've heard of accounts involving SS soldiers at Auschwitz who could torture and murder with no adverse effects to their conscience, while others were deeply ridden with guilt. Herr Himmler would assure them that their duty and mission were honorable, even though they were called upon to do dishonorable things.

Maybe even I could torture someone under the right conditions, but I hope the hell not.

[Bunny]

35. I think that you can't REALLY know what you would do until you were in

a situation that called for it. Then you'd know if you had that ability or not. Most of us like to think that we'd never do anything like that, but during wartime not all of us would pass the test. Many would pass, some wouldn't.

[cornermouse]

2. There are a lot of psychological studies on this.

And yes, it is a sick state of affairs.

[izzie]

17. And I think they say most would.

Look at the Stanford study and the Yale study on this.

[theresistance]

4. No, because you are simply not supposed to

I'll never forget how American officials "demanded" that the few US POW's captured in March 2003 should be treated in accordance with the Geneva conventions. What a bunch of bastards the torture-justifying Bush White House is...Sorry I digress.

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. I've had the chance, and I never considered doing it.

The one thing we need to keep in mind is that the vast majority of our troops do not torture prisoners or commit atrocities against civilians.

[smbolisnch]

28. Right. Only a miniscule portion in the grand scheme of it.

That doesn't excuse those that did take part in the toture by any means, but the vast majority of soldiers are caught up in something that they can't get out of. They are not all interested in abusing POW's.

And to answer the original question, no, I would never torture anyone, under any circumstances.

[hyphenate]

6. Violence makes me ill

I've come to the point where even films with lots of gore just make me ill. Imagine my surprise when I watched a repeat of a repeat of Die Hard 2 and felt a bit on the nauseous side during segments of it. And this was always my favorite of the Die Hard series of films!

In addition, that very same scenario was done on an episode of "Threat Matrix" which was a 1/2 season propaganda piece for the OHS. In one episode, they tortured a suspect at Gitmo who was allegedly al-Quaeda, and as a result stopped a "menace" to the U.S. I believe that was the last episode I ever watched, and it went downhill from there. But yeah--people can rationalize why they do some things, even hurtful things, and come away with a clean conscience.

As a side-note, if anyone ever has the chance to see a TV movie/play called "The Andersonville Trial" you should. It's about Henry Wirz, the commander of the Andersonville prison camp during the Civil War, where conditions didn't vary much from any hell hole during other wars, and this was the United States itself! It's riveting. And more importantly, it shows the people who administered the camp justifying and rationalizing why they did what they did at the camp. A 150 years ago, and it still has relevance today.

[mopaul]

7. & how many serial killer movies will we have this year?

for 15 years we've been accosted with movie after movie showing torture and murder for thrills. sick

[thinkingwoman]

8. oh please

torture predates moving pictures, the printing press, and probably written language of any kind.

But no, I would not take part. Some people are moral and ethical. Others are not. That's the turning mechanism as far as I'm concerned.

[mopaul]

10. serial killer movies piss me off

silence of the lambs, copycat, etc., can't they come up with anything but the lowest possible ideas? what a thrill to see an actress being sliced up and murdered.

not blaming hollywood or anything, it's all fake violence, when we have plenty of real torture going on in Iraq.

and i suspect that even moral folks could become torturers with the right conditions. as in, being convinced that Iraqis attacked us on nine eleven, so therefore it's o.k. to torture them.

[thinkingwoman]

11. so don't watch them

But I disagree with your premise. People are either moral or they aren't, regardless of circumstances.

Morality means nothing if it changes with circumstances.

[mopaul]

12. I enjoy reading about serial killers sometimes

so i'm a hypocrite. i love reading about the crimes of john gacey, ted bundy, the hillside boys, etc. draw to horror, but horrified enough to keep it at bay.

i don't go to movies anymore anyway. i've taken to watching old film noir from the 40's.

[thinkingwoman]

36. LOL no way!

You're not a hypocrite! Not you mopaul! LOL

[hyphenate]

9. Oh yeah

but also look at the ratings for such shows as CSI and its spinoffs, as well as several shows on A&E and CourtTV, where forensic pathology has become the flavor of the week.

Now, I love the CSIs and many of these other shows, but let's face it--there is a helluva lot of difference between me and my peers at the over 40 age range, and someone who is in their teens or early twenties, and far more impressionable.

And yes--look at all the serial killer movies, everything from Hannibal Lecter to Arleen Wournos, to Ted Bundy and the Green River killer. And that's only in the last five or six years! However, again these films need to have a far stricter rating system which will prevent young and impressionable minds from seeing them without proper guidance.

However--and this is a big however: if you listen to a majority of people in our country, it's obvious that a naked breast at half-time is far more scandalous than a killer blowing someone away with a .38 caliber handgun. There is special care taken in our country to wax over the joys of gun ownership, and let's face it--the darling of the conservative set, Ahnold, has made nearly as many violent action films as his conservative buddy, Bruce Willis, and other heroes of the radical right. When natural areas of our lives, like sex, are pre-empted for the glories of action, adventure and violence, it's time to question our national values.

[Greybnk48]

13. Read Zimbardo's research on this

He split up a group of average college kids--made one group prisoners and one group guards. Within a remarkably short period of time the "guards" became brutal to the point that he had to stop the experiment. Anyone is capable of this behavior under the "right" conditions.

[AngelAsuka]

14. Ugh, what a disgrace

But it also reminds me of that test that was similar, only involved something like one group being able to shock the other? Anyone know what I'm talking about? (Its okay if you don't, I rarely know what I'm talking about ;) )

Like many others, I'd like to think it isn't possible that I could do anything like that, but I fear Mopaul in correct about the 'right' conditions. :scared:

~~AA~~

[Mikimouse]

18. Stanley Milgram (response to authority), later

performed with peer groups by Solomon Asche.

[AngelAsuka]

37. Thanks, Miki :)

:yourock:

~~AA~~

[Mikimouse]

39. I am honored...

:toast: :hippie: Welcome to DU!

[neweurope]

16. You are right. Nobody can predict how he/she will act under stress

or in unusual circumstances. There have been two or three such experiments; all of them proved this. Anybody could become a torturer.

That is why things like the Geneva convention etc. are so important. That's why it is very important to have officers who are an example. That's why it is so important to out each and every case of alleged mistreatment of inferiors. And that's why it's important to not have blood and gore all over the TV leading folks to believe it's normal.

But you have a Gonzales who thinks the Geneva convention is "quaint"; you have officers who publicly state that it's "fun" to kill Afghans; you have officers and politicians who try to cover up what is STILL going on in Guantanamo and other places; and while you are not being shown pictures of coffins of soldiers you have a lot of violence on TV.

------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[blondeatlast]

15. "It' a sick ******* state of affairs." How sadly, sadly true.

There was a time when Americans could speak from some degree of moral superiority about torture.

Now tell me we are "morally superior" to Saddam Hussein or the Banana Republics. It can't be done.

Sitting comfortably at my desk, of course not. In the actual situation, surrounded by colleagues also doing it and with blind okay from my superiors, I can't say I wouldn't.

It's a chilling thought, but I can see how I could be compelled to do so.

Edit: Five minutes later, in deep thought about this; no, I couldn't do it, unless I were tortured. Still, I can't say with authority what I would od.

[frictionlessO]

19. You will never ever torture anyone, unless...

you have had the empathy trained out of you. That is what it takes, pure, plain, and simple. All in"terror"gators are somewhat well trained to have a complete lack of empathy for anything other than their cause. Never mind if you could be innocent.

There is a natural reaction in most humans to help others in pain or duress, it's very deep seated. I saw a special on this very thing on a DISC channel not long ago... anyone else?

Anyway its that bit of empathy that you need to be lacking in order to do it.

All of the most compassionate parts of religions and spiritual paths come down to and are sprung from empathy. I dont care what you worship or not, as long you try earnestly to be compassionate and have empathy... that means no torture under any circumstance.

[mopaul]

20. i guess if someone tortured one of my loved ones

i might be tempted, but it'd be much easier to just off them.

[frictionlessO]

34. the question to ask yourself is why they would have done such a thing

Seriously consider it this way....
Someone has murdered a loved one, you have an oppurtunity to torture them as you bound them with tape or rope or whatever.

Now lets say you ask them why, and they holler cruel vitriolistic spewings at you. Again why? Why are they this way? Did daddy molest them? Did they grow up in war zone and as such or quite desensitized to fellow human pain and suffereing... did they get to the point through duress of their own sufferings?

You may never know, but what you can count on is that once you decide to inflict torture to make yourself feel better (i.e. revenge) you become no better than your victim. Much much healthier for the both of you, if you just pull the trigger quickly I guess.

The point is that even if you catch some mother fucker red handed doing something really bad it does not give you the right to do the same sort of really bad things back to said mother fucker.

or as my polly anna-ish profile says...
Dont become what you hate, love is the way to liberate.

peace

[davekriss]

50. mopaul, I have much respect for you...

...but in these circumstances I would fight to stop the torture of my loved ones, I would not sign-up to torture the torturer.

Hatred ever kills, love never dies such is the vast difference between the two. What is obtained by love is retained for all time. What is obtained by hatred proves a burden in reality for it increases hatred.
---Ghandi

[Rapcw]

21. look up Stanford Prison Experiment, or something similar

It shows that when ordinary people are given infinite power over people, they tend to get barbaric. I believe they had to shut the experiment down because it was getting out of control.

[Greybnk48]

24. That's the Zimbardo study n/t

[Rapcw]

27. oh thank you for correcting me n/t

[theboss]

22. Nah...killing and skinning a drifter has always been my dream

Though I prefer the term "hobo" to "drifter."

[mopaul]

25. I hear ya

and of course roasting a republican.

but seriously, shouldn't you skin BEFORE killing? i'm just sayin'

[NNN0LHI]

23. No, but I could shoot someone dead if I caught them torturing a POW

There is still some hope mopaul.

Don

[mopaul]

26. as a kid, my pals tortured frogs, like bush, but i wouldn't participate

and was called a sissy of course. i'm just squeamish i guess.

[NNN0LHI]

31. I got my ass kicked when I was a kid from some older kids who...

...were torturing a garter snake at the park because I interfered with their fun by stopping them. That was 40 years ago and I can remember it like yesterday. All the people who I have known in my life who enjoyed torturing animals turned out to be some sick fucks.

Don

[mopaul]

32. the only time i threatened to kick someones ass....

was in highschool when i saw several jocks picking on the 'retarded' kid. i jumped in and said if they wanted to pick on someone, pick on me. some folks have a few morals, some don't. kids can be especially cruel, and i can forgive them for being ignorant, but adults can't get away with it.

[ultraist]

45. Serial murderers often start off by torturing and killing animals

For extreme control freaks or power mongers, there is a sick thrill in having that much power over someone. For others, they are merely submitting to authority because they lack the courage to make their own ethical decisions (Zimbardo).

It would take quite a lot for me to resort to torture and I would not do it merely to submit to authority. Furthermore, most of the research I've read shows torture does not produce more info than other means.

But, if it seemed that the only way to get critical info to save a life, such as the life of my child, was through torture, I'd probably consider it. Thankfully, I've never reached that depth of desperation and hope I never do.

BTW, I don't think those soldiers were torturing because they felt they were in a desperate situation where there was an imminent threat to life and the only way they could get the info was through torture. I think something else was going on there.

[LynnTheDem]

29. No. And yes, I do think it's a predisposition.

Average Joes don't torture other people. Unfortunately there aren't as many "average Joes" as we think there are, imo.

Not every soldier was (is) torturing Iraqis, and it was soldiers who turned them in.

[Done]

30. What if you are ordered to torture prisoners?

What if you are falsely told that these are terrorists? There has been no independent investigation of Abu Graib, and there's not going to be. The military investigations have all said that the guards acted on their own, but there's a lot to contradict that conclusion.

What were those letters and emails from the guards all about? Were some of the guards saying, "Get me the hell out of here?" Were some of the guards trying to stop what was happening at Abu Graib? It's probably true that some of the guards are guilty, but others may not be as guilty as we have been led to believe. Whatever degree of guilt the guards have, I believe they are taking a fall for higher ups.

Without an outside investigation, I am doubtful of everything we are told in the MSM. Could it be that the role of many of the guards involved little more than poising for the photos with the real torture being conducted by the professionals in military intelligence? Is it really true that these guards are like Joseph Mengele?

[SmokingJacket]

33. I once quit a job because it entailed doing things to people against their

will -- in a nursing home. I was supposed to bathe them, even if they were swearing at me.

I couldn't do it. I **knew** it was my job, I **knew** it was for their own good, but I felt like I was violating them.

I think I'd be a terrible torturer.

But if the circumstances were the rights ones (ie, you must torture someone or I will kill your child in front of you,) I think any of us would be capable of anything.

Takes a special person to feel pleasure in it, though.

[Cleita]

41. Good for you.

I had to bathe my husband, too, and he often objected. When he did I left him alone. Usually, he would come around himself and ask me for a bath although maybe it was days later. How much bathing do old people who are pretty immobile need anyway? One can always clean off areas with a washcloth if necessary.

[tralfaz]

38. How would you feel if

your son or daughter was going to die and the only way of stopping it was to get some information out of another person. Would you resort to torture? I hope that I never have to answer that question but my answer would be YES.

[henrik larssonisking]

42. interesting supposition, torture is actually better used

as a threat than as a reality, frinstance, your torture the first guy without asking or looking for any info, and then tell the second guy that you dont care if he talks or not, 40% of people will talk, then theres using a family member of the suspect as leverage, you only have to threaten the family member to get the majority of people to talk. Then theres the famous using of pig products to take away the cleanliness of the suspect, this can be used very effectively as long as its used in a cultural setting. THe answer to the question is if my kid was kidnapped and you knew were he was, you better hope the feds get you before me.

[SmokingJacket]

44. In theory, sure.

In reality, that information would likely be false. People will say anything to get pain to stop -- whether they know any info or not.

Torture is ineffective. Besides its being inhumane, monstrous, etc.... it doesn't work.

(Limbaugh is always coming up with these theoretical situations where torture is "okay" -- the assumption being that if it's sometimes okay, we should support our military/CIA when it tortures. Well -- I don't.)

[henrik larssonisking]

47. ok as i said, you are not actually torturing the person

you are questioning, you are using psychological pressure and the threat of physical pain to break them, granted you may get erronious info, but a trained interrogator can get a lot from what you dont say and from reading between the lines.

on edit: its just another tool in the interrogators repetoire.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

40. Only if they were a right-wing Repub and a Bush supporter..... (kidding!)

I wouldn't be able to do it - even then. I might be able to make an exception if it was Bush himself or Cheney.

[Cleita]

43. I thought Randi Rhodes answered it best.

She said she wouldn't know what she would do because in the military you must follow orders, you are brainwashed to follow orders and it would certainly be a hard decision for young soldiers to disobey orders. However, she really thinks Bush and those in the Pentagon where these orders originated should be brought up on charges, not the soldiers who were told to do this by higher ups and by civilian contractors. I say Bush, Gonzalez and Rumsfeld should be hung by the balls until they admit the orders came from them. I'm kidding. It's a known fact that torture doesn't produce truthful information.

[Hippo_Tron]

46. If the answer is yes, then I have no business guarding a prison

Just like how if my spouse were killed, the criminal justice system has no business asking me whether the murderer should recieve the death penalty or not.

[democrank]

48. NO.

Never. Not for any reason. Ever.

I witnessed torture when I was young. It`s a deviation from every imaginable rule governing human behavior. To even consider using torture is to forfeit any shred of decency. Power over another human being is something I`d never contemplate.

[ultraist]

51. That's a lofty goal

If you believed there was no other way to get info on the whereabouts of your child or to save your child's life, would you consider it?

I would. Honestly, I would probably do just about anything to save the life of my child. Hopefully, I will never be in a desperate situation and have to make such choices, but one does not know until they've been there.

Desperate people do desperate things.

But again, I don't think that was what was going on with these soldiers. Many of them were fairly normal UNTIL they underwent the military training and indoctrination. That CAN change people. I think it was more of a group think situation, similiar to the dynamics of a gang rape.

[nickgutierrez]

49. No, and I don't even think I could watch it being done.

Just the pictures make me want to vomit. I couldn't imagine seeing, smelling, experiencing torture. I'd lose it.