Am I the only person here that doesn't think outsourcing is evil?

[curse10]

Everytime I turn around, even in the lounge, people are bitching about outsourcing. Shouldn't we want a globalization of the market instead of only the big nations dominating? As liberals, don't we care about the world and not just our own country?

Right now many countries' biggest asset is their population. They have a lot of people, with not enough production and manufacturing jobs for them (and not enough land or natural resources to get into that sort of market). It's comparative advantage, pure and simple. The US has the infrastructure to possibly reallocate the workforce into more lucrative positions-- we have the land and the resources to do other things better than telemarketing. Developing countries don't have that advantage- they don't have as much clout or as many resources.

I think, in an effort to be more globally minded, that maybe we should take this hit. Send jobs to India, Russia, etc... It may hurt our employment rate for awhile- even for longer than we'd like- but in the end wouldn't it be better? People in more skilled jobs. People in better paying jobs, that can't be outsourced. A happier, more productive workforce.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dookus]

1. Nope...

I don't see why people in Mexico or India are less deserving of jobs than US citizens. I also see outsourcing as inevitable, and none of the so-called "solutions" are actually workable.

[curse10]

20. we might be the only ones, Dookus

**flame retardant suit on!**

[bpilgrim]

97. it's a great theory

if you used it to incentivize the rest of the world to actually become more democratic via tariffs and access to markets otherwise it's a race to the bottom and that will only enslave us all.

welcome to the 3rd world :toast:

peace

[Hippo_Tron]

152. I think that there should be human rights standards at the very minimum

But you make an excellent point, it's really a very complicated issue and many of the so-called "solutions" are not workable.

[demnan]

2. Most of us see it from a personal standpoint

I will have to take a 20K cut in salary later this year due to the devaluation of my job, which is web programming. I just hope I can continue to make my mortgage payments on my small but expensive condo 30 miles from D.C.

[curse10]

8. I see where people are coming from- my partner is a programmer

he's still not making what he was five years ago after he was laid off- and his company actively uses programmers in India. He could be gone in any minute and we'd be fucked. But he agrees with me. He's willing to have to tough it out- because even at our poorest, we are richer than the average Indian.

edited for typos- doh!

[idlisambar]

45. One caveat

The Indian IT worker is not the "average" Indian. Typically they come from the educated middle-class, and by and large they live pretty well. For example, a middle-class Indian is very likely to have a live-in servent.

[fortyfeetunder]

126. Servants, US vs India

A middle class Indian has a live in servant
A middle class American is a servant.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. It's a two-sided coin, no doubt.

Yes, we're very concerned with the world view. However, before you can take care of everyone else, we have to be healthy ourselves. And a lot of the outsourcing problem today isn't that it's manufacturing jobs being sent out of the country, it's high tech jobs. It's scary that highly trained and educated Americans are left without work.

Ideally, instead of siphoning jobs from America, America could create jobs overseas while keeping the workforce at home intact.

[curse10]

11. but comparative advantage says that we obviously can't do high tech

work competitively- then we should enter a new field. Tech jobs are no longer as highly skilled as they once were. It's a saturated market because of the internet boom of the 90s. People got into it because they wanted to get rich. The bottom fell out and now we have a bunch of unemployed programmers wanting more money than they are worth.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Alright then, since you have all the answers.

What new field?

[curse10]

18. I'm not saying I have all the answers

I'm just expressing my own opinion. No need for everyone to get snippy.

[FloridaPat]

29. Yes, what new fields? And how about education? How does one

pay mortgages and buy food, take years off from work, to get a new career? And what about all those programmers who are over 50? How does one start at the bottom of a career ladder at 50? or 55? or even 60? We've been screwed by our government. They've allowed this to happen for a lot of reason, payoffs probably being one of them.

And when everyone in this country is getting $9 an hour from Walmart, what kind of country are we going to have? 99% below proverty. Hardly anyone with health care. No jobs except selling Walmart merchandise. But really rich CEO's and congress people.

Yes, I'm am bitter and mad at everything that has happened in the last 25 years.

[Dookus]

32. But what's the solution?

Do we tell companies they cannot outsource? Then what happens when the products cost 20% more than the competition?

What would a car cost that was made entirely in the US? Don't even THINK of buying a television made here.

So the US companies go out of business altogether. Who benefits then?

[tx_dem41]

37. Good point, Dookus...

...and I agree with you. I will say that any tax breaks that an outsourcing company "gets" from the Government ought to be decreased or eliminated at certain levels of outsourcing. After that, I don't believe Government has a role in the issue.

[Dookus]

41. I agree with that

we shouldn't make it EASIER for companies to outsource, but I see no practical way to prohibit it.

[hollowdweller]

49. Global race to the bottom

Eventually if we allow oursourcing as it's being done now nobody will be able to afford anything except the very rich.

[tx_dem41]

53. And when that happens....the world economy will collapse into a ..

...depression and laws will change...A new "New Deal". That's the cycle of history (and economy) occurring.

[Dookus]

54. so tell me what we do....

outlaw it? Do you not see any negative repercussions from that?

[eridani]

157. Tax the bejeezus out of it.

Outlawing stuff is usually not a good idea, except as a last resort.

[ikojo]

102. Most gadgets are made in China and they

still cost a pretty penny....

Most clothes are made in China and I don't see prices dropping, even though the labor is pennies an hour.

It is not fair to blame high prices on the cost of American labor.

[Dookus]

112. Really?

You can buy DVD players for 20 bucks, TVs for 50 bucks. There are countless examples of consumer goods becoming cheaper and cheaper.

[Solon]

119. I don't know where you go and buy stuff..

but you must also realize that those things are at those prices because of mass manufacturing, it is that simple. I wouldn't buy those types of items at those prices, they have a tendancy to suck as electronic devices. But all new technologies will go down in price when supply is up, whether made here or elsewhere. As far as I can tell, many items haven't changed in price much, *cough* CDs *cough*, and have infact been raised in price. What is the size of a 50 dollar tv? 15 inches probably. As far as other electronics go, Car steroes haven't gone down dramatically in price as far as I can tell, regardless of the fact they are made in places like Nicaragua now, by people making 50 cents a day. I made the mistake of buying a cheap DVD player, lasted a whole 2 months, really quality work that. It was the third one I been through, and I annoys the crap out of me. Never again, for some reason my computer DVD drive is a hundred times more reliable than those pieces of crap. On to CDs, an excellent example, why oh why is it hard to find them below 10 dollars, when the wholesale cost is only a dollar or two? How much profit should these companies make, I mean, think about it, what is the markup percentage of that?

[Dookus]

121. My point is simply

that cost of labor IS important to the price of a product. I've worked in consumer electronics for well over a decade now, and believe me, the company could not afford to manufacture in the US. It would've gone out of business long ago.

Our competition was building their products in Asia. The margins on our products were very slight. Trying to manufacture in the US would've ensured the company failed, and then a lot more US jobs would be lost.

[BootinUp]

154. I think the price drop on electronics after

Plant capital is recovered too. Those electronic plants were expensive to build.

[Maru Kitteh]

153. Wesley Clark was the only one

of all of our candidates who focused on this in an honest way and made it a priority.

Damn, we could have had the mandate for REAL.

[DrGonzoLives]

87. Then where do we go?

If not high tech....what? What is there left?

And shouldn't these other countries be developing their own industry rather than depending on U.S. companies giving them jobs?

[EC]

104. Every profession is saturated and pretty much

taken to the lowest denominator in one way or another.Even Nursing, there is no shortage of trained Nurses, it's just the way hospitals and clinics etc. use them, either they burn them out with 12 hour days, or they have pools where each nurse can get anywhere from 4 to 20 hours a week with few benefits or no benefits. My daughter is a Physical Therapist, and what they have done with those jobs here, is closed up the departments in the hospitals and clinics and outsourced to temp services that specialize in therapists, nurses and other medical personnel. The hospitals and clinics retain the Therepy areas, but not the personnel, they are sent as needed.

So what I am trying to say, is the only jobs around here that are available are bartenders and truck drivers....There's going to have to be some major investment in new kinds of jobs to train for, such as in the energy areas.

[ikojo]

100. It is really hard to care about whether an Indian is paid

well when if I lose my job there is NO real safety net for me. I don't have a family who can help me pay my rent and other bills while I seek other "opportunities (as jobs are now called)"

if I go without a decent paying job for an extended period of time I risk eviction and would be forced into bankruptcy.

I have a friend, here in the US, who tried to pursue a relationship with someone from India. This person worked in customer service in India. She came from a wealthy Indian family and yes, they did have several different types of servants.

The Indians will not put up with low wages for long. Too many of the educated class know people in the US and may have traveled back and forth several times. They have an idea of what Americans who did their jobs got paid.

[Mountainman]

4. Well I guess you feel secure that your job won't be out sourced.

I don't see a globalization of the market a good thing for anyone but those who control the wealth. What they are doing is pitting us against each other to drive down the wage scale.

The right wants to remove all social safety nets and pay us slave wages to do their bidding and we will be happy to because someone else will do it if we don't.

If workers would unite for social justice and not fight each other things would be better.

[Pushed To The Left]

117. Cheap labor conservatism!

I'm going to school for a degree in IT, so this is an important issue to me. When cheap labor conservatives hire illegal immigrants (while they pretend to be against illegal immigration), they claim that those immigrants will do the jobs that Americans won't do. They certainly can't make that argument for high-paying programming jobs!

[Warpy]

5. Here's what's wrong with that view

Jobs are being outsourced that rely on the American people, including the ones who have been dumped out of work, to be the main and sometimes the only market for the goods and services these companies are producing.

Outsourcing is attractive to companies because the rate of exchange between third world currencies and the dollar make a living wage in a third world money system translate into dollars that won't keep a transient alive in a cardboard box, won't supply enough calories. There is no way a US worker can compete against a weak currency. It can't be done.

So here you have people without work and without hope being expected to pay for goods and services made in the third world at third world costs and being sold here at first world prices.

This is what is wrong with offshoring. It is killing us.

Your job is vulnerable, too.

[mdhunter]

6. There is nothing inherently American about any particular job

What we should be concerned with is the motivation for outsourcing, i.e. cheap labor, lax environmental standards, anti-union sentiment, and cronyism.

It is those things that attract business to outsource to other nations. We can remain neutral about the moving of the work, but we should fight to raise standards across nations. As condidtions equalize, labor flows become more static. In an ideal world, outsourcing would end.

So, while I want outsourcing to stop, it's not to save American jobs, per se - it's the end result of better working conditions across the globe.

[Booster]

89. What bothers me is why isn't anyone upset about all our

personal information including ss #'s, credit card #, drivers license #'s, etc, going to foreign countries when we have a hard time now keeping all this information out of the hands of scammers. Come to think of it, did most of the id theft start when these bank jobs went overseas, probably not, but something to think about.

[FloridaPat]

135. Does anyone understand what outsourcing programmers means?

The computer guts of corporations are overseas too. Banks, IRS, security companies, whatever. The DOD just dumped millions of dollars of programming because after 3 years nothing worked. This is how programming has gone for decades. Now people that don't speak English well or at all are writing these programs. Just imagine the stupidity of sending the heart of your corporation overseas. No computer, no company. Even outsourcing here in America - you have to be nuts to let another company have control over what makes your company live.

It has amazed me for 20 years. Still amazed.

Another thought - if the world gets too made at us and the dollar is worth nothing - what are we going to do for cars, clothes, food, etc. We can't afford to import it, but we don't have the ability to make that stuff anymore.

[GetTheRightVote]

7. No way should an American not have food on the table for aliens

I am so sorry but if Americans are ok, then fine, but if we have problems here at home then out sourcing is simply evil. Keep up your own home and then with strength reach out to others. If it continues we will be the next third world nation to arrive in town.

:kick:

[Dookus]

12. If only it were that simple

First, let me preface by saying I just ended two years of unemployment - most of what I do is now outsourced to India.

But the companies I've worked for in the past would've gone out of business entirely if they could lower certain costs. I worked in high-tech startup companies, and the cost of functions like tech support can literally be the difference between staying in business and going out of business.

So is it better for ALL employees to lose their jobs because the company is out of business? Like it or not, companies have to compete with other companies, and in the business I was in, they were usually asian companies. We simply could not stay in business if our costs of doing business were so much higher than the competition.

[jpgray]

9. I hope you are the last person here that thinks this

The way outsourcing and globalization are being carried out widens the gap between rich and poor nations rather than closes it. The poor workers of third world countries have not benefited in any significant way from these policies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3516197.stm

The report says that only a dozen developing countries have benefited from the increasing integration of the world economy,.

Those who have lost out include "the poor, the asset-less, illiterate and unskilled workers, and indigenous peoples."

Income per person in the world's 20 poorest countries has barely changed in the last 40 years, from $212 in 1960-62 to $267 in 2000-02, while income in the richest 20 nations has tripled, from $11,417 to $32,339.

The report said globalisation's "potential for good is immense", but "the advantages are too distant for too many, while the risks are all too real".

[Dookus]

15. That's not what I saw

I did a fair amount of travelling, dealing with companies hired to do some functions for us. Our tech-support centers in Toronto and Amsterdam were staffed primarily with immigrants from Russia, India, and the Middle-East. There was intense competition for the jobs, and they were considered very good jobs for entry-level tech workers in those countries.

The manufacturing jobs in Singapore were also highly-prized jobs. All the workers I talked to were quite happy to have jobs that were indoors, safe, and paid well by local standards.

[jpgray]

22. I'll trust the UN commission over anecdotal evidence

Outsourcing and globalization are good ideas in theory, but in their current practice there is a lot lacking. When there is a profound economic interest in keeping the labor's standard of living dirt cheap and the consumer's standard of living astronomically high, the two don't level out, they become increasingly polarized.

A lot of potential is there for what you describe, but in its current form I think the risks outweigh the benefits.

[Dookus]

26. ok you're right

the jobs sucked, I was only there to beat them with whips and pay them a nickel an hour, and rah-rah-rah, America FIRST! BOOOYA!

edit; Sorry for the sarcasm, but I think people only look at part of the equation. Yes, Americans lose jobs - I lost mine! On the other hand, two small companies that I'd worked for now employ over 3,000 people in the US - NONE of those jobs would exist here if they were forced to manufacture and provide tech support here in the US. So I'll take 3,000 jobs over zero jobs any day.

[jpgray]

43. I don't say all outsourcing is bad, or that it in general is bad

But in its current form I think the risks are outweighing the benefits. And I didn't mean to imply that your anecdote was invalid or anything of that kind. I wouldn't object so much if it was simply a matter of jobs leaving here and being established elsewhere, but right now it seems to me that globalization today is more about maintaining the polarization between rich and poor nations than doing away with it.

[Dookus]

52. I don't think that

I don't think companies much care about such an issue. I think they care about surviving and making a profit in the face of global competition.

The CEOs and CFO's I knew who made such decisions were friends of mine. They're good people who always treated employees fairly - even when they were laying me off.

They made decisions that HAD to be made in order for the company to survive. When we're competing with the likes of SONY, we had to do what had to be done.

In an ideal world, yeah, we'd hire everybody locally and pay them well. But that's a world that doesn't exist. If SONY can make and support their products 20% cheaper than we could by using foreign labor, what choice is there?

The alternative was to go out of business altogether.

[Solon]

The sarcasm is lost on me...

Look at the working conditions in many Central/South American and African countries. Then see where that sarcasm goes.

[Dookus]

60. and were the working conditions

much better PRIOR to working for US companies? Actually, I don't know of much african outsourcing being done (or South American, for that matter).

[Solon]

65. They weren't perfect however...

Let me put it this way, drought hit Africa hard in many areas, however, look at Niger, is it better now that it is the most polluted place on earth? In Central America, life is hard, however they used to be able to feed themselves, now they have to import food because the governments their forced them off the land to work in factories where they can barely afford one meal a day, whereas before they were fed three. Was that an improvement?

[Dookus]

66. I'm confused

is there really much US outsourcing going on in Niger?

[Solon]

70. Globalization in general my friend....

is more than just outsourcing. It includes many things, including forbidding countries from making laws protecting the enviroment, or passing labor rights laws, etc., while at the same time rewarding those who are human rights violators, like Shell, who hangs Nigerian citizens that oppose their policies there.

[Dookus]

72. lol... ok

I was discussing outsourcing, as mentioned in the original post.

[Solon]

79. Outsourcing is only a part, and a small one, in the whole

Globalization debacle. We have a wishy-washy system that at the moment will only benefit about 1% of the world, and leave the rest out to dry. What will happen is a worsening of conditions worldwide in relation to labor and standards of living, at some point people will start to break. There is already a backlash to much of this, mostly in South America, but the point is, people are dying, and we need to find a better way.

[Benhurst]

17. Thanks for the link. NT

[Spinzonner]

10. Has your job or career field been Outsourced ?

Lots of things are benign - or viewed that way - when one doesn't have to deal with the consequences oneself.

[curse10]

14. No- and it likely won't be

I chose to get into a field that cannot be outsourced- law is very specialized to each nation.

[mitchum]

51. Ah, there's the rub!

[LincolnMcGrath]

125. "a field that cannot be outsourced"

hahahahahahaha

Guess again!

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Contrary to popular perception, Shakespeare didn't really suggest that killing all the lawyers might be a good thing. But that hasn't stopped some people from wishing they would just go away.

And now they are -- attorneys are the latest to see their jobs outsourced.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=outsourcing+paralegals

[ikojo]

107. I think one's position on outsourcing greatly depends

upon one's position on the class ladder in this country.

if one comes from a family that can afford to support you for a long time between jobs, then I am sure outsourcing is a good thing.

if one comes from a family that can afford to help you go back to college, then outsourcing is a good thing.

These things are not part of my experience. I cannot simply stop life and become 19 years old again. I couldn't afford college then and I cannot afford it now.

[OneTwentyoNine]

16. Huh...don't think skilled,high paying jobs can't be outsourced?

Ask about any Aircraft worker about that one here in Wichita. Ask Boeing people,Cessna people and you'll get the same answer. There on a fast track to outsource everything and then just assemble aircraft when all the parts come back.

Women at Raytheon(Beech Aircraft)making wiring harness's for aircraft got pink slips as they sent the work to Mexico. Those were skilled jobs,high paying and they even offered to take a pay cut.But...How the hell to you take a pay cut that lowers you to Mexico wages and yet live in the US? Its fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

The only good that comes out of shit like this is the boat loads of cash that the CEO and other bastards at the top rake in by shit canning American workers.Meanwhile those SOB's will be back at the feeding trough when they want another ten years of City property tax abatements paid for by Wichita taxpayers--even those that lost their jobs at Raytheon.

[Solon]

19. You said this...

As liberals, don't we care about the world and not just our own country?

I shall answer it, I'm against Globalization as it is implimented today because it provides negative benefits to the workers of third world nations, and additionally we lose jobs to virtual slaves. What is the benefit of having 13 year old girls chained to sewing machines so they can make barely enough for one meal a day so we can have Tommy Hilfinger shirts, that cost a dollar to make, and retail for 20 dollars or more? I care about the people on both sides of the border that are exploited to the extent that armed guards surround the factory in the "enterprise" zones in these countries to keep them in line. We prop up despotic regimes for the sole purpose of money, no other purpose. What would you say to a Philipino farmer's family that has to bury him because Dole Pineapple didn't want them to organize? But I guess things like that is tough shit to you isn't it? I mean, look at the benefits, we lose our middle class, and the rest of the world gains little to nothing because of it. Why do you support murder? Why do you support Slavery?

[curse10]

23. I'm not talking about slave labor, for chrissakes

There should be safeguards in place-- and in many places there are. And as developing countries grow it will be easier for those safeguards and regulations to be put in place.

[Solon]

33. Those regulations are demolished by the IMF and WTO...

before a country can even participate in free trade, and they face sanctions if they try to reenact them. It is utterly incomprehensible to me that anyone could support Globalization as it is implimented today. You say you don't support slavery, I say you do, until you realize that the way it is implemented now is unjust and doesn't raise the standard of living for those in these countries. Look at Mexico, they are losing jobs the same way we are, for the exact same reasons, they are paid to much, even though, that pay is below the standard of living there. How do you rise up the standard of living in a country, when the deals signed in back rooms are specifically designed to keep people in the poor house, and forbid local businesses from competeing.

[poe]

34. stop using the terms of the slavemaster

unbridled growth is the fundamental operating principle of the cancer cell and neoliberal economics. the entirety of your premise is based on a diseased and dysfunctional view of what is economics. development means extraction and exploitation- industrialization and the concomitant energy consumption, habititat destruction and wasting of the air, water etc. that's the reality.

[jpgray]

39. "There should be safeguards in place"--Sure, but who will put them in?

The corporations that profit enormously by keeping their labor obscenely cheap, or the governments that are easily swayed by infusions of foreign capital? Given a truly free exchange, equalization would take place, but there is purposed domination of the exchange by those who have an interest in maintaining a large gap between rich and poor nations. I still have not heard an argument to refute this, and I at least have evidence to support my claim. Where is the evidence to support yours?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

47. Sorry, you can't have it both ways......

You can't wash your hands of the issue, then say "as long as we make sure a fair wage is being paid in that country". Aside from the tax breaks, the greedy corporations are doing this to avoid things like unions and government regulations.

[JanMichael]

129. The safeguards haven't BEEN put in place and they won't be anytime soon.

Stop being a Free Market Utopiast.

[Misunderestimator]

28. Glad I read as far as your post before responding...

you said it.

[hollowdweller]

46. Amen!

[The Traveler]

21. Out sourcing itself is not bad

But the manner in which it is being done is atrocious. Sure, I can out source to programmers around the world. But the people of the US should not be subsidizing through tax codes my efforts to do so at the expense of US jobs. Also, there are real risks associated with allowing foreign nationals too much access to private data and critical business processes.

Hmmm ... is outsourcing OK when the overseas labor pool is essentially coerced? Remember the shameful "company town" era of US history?

"Globalization" is being used too frequently to justify exploitation. Free trade must also be fair trade.

[OneTwentyoNine]

24. When's the last time a CEO job got outsourced saving the company millions?

They alway seemed so fucking concerned about the payroll. Well,outsource the CEO job and save millions right off the bat.

Wonder if anyone else would do one of those 10-20 MILLION $$$ CEO jobs for about HALF the going rate. I sure as hell would....

[latteromden]

25. "Maybe we should take this hit"? Sorry, my family of four can't live on

35-40K a year anymore, and as of about two weeks ago, my dad lost his job to outsourcing for a second time - we can't do it. There's no way I could ever support a policy like outsourcing if it leaves middle class workers hovering so dangerously close to actual poverty.

[tx_dem41]

27. I don't think its "evil"...

...as an earlier poster said, it's inevitable.

[laura888]

101. no - not inevitable!

Outsourcing is the free enterprise system allowed to run amuk, without any restrictions.

The drawbacks of restricting outsourcing that you mention: diminishing competition, etc., are the same arguments made by companies who fought government regulation in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

Most companies fought the laws that established:

- the 8-hour workday
- the 40-hour week
- minimum wage

Without these laws, the lives of many americans would be miserable. By sending jobs to countries without these laws, we are saying that these restrictions are bothersome.

[poe]

30. qui bono

don't use the language of your oppressors. outsourcing is a weasel word used by the PR machine of corp. US. this is simply a structure of maximizing profits at the cost of us all. if you consider more devastation to the earth, sweatshop labor, massive energy use for worldwide transportation etc., a good thing then.... yikes. look at all angles. strip resources send them off to the land of cheap labor and lax or no environmental regs. that is the reality of globalization. develop your local economy or perish. a turn to the local.
stop exporting slavery and importing cheap plastic crap.

[gizmo1979]

31. When you get done outsourcing

Whose going to buy your product?We haven't hurt the middle class enough,you want more?You think hightech can't be outsourced?Think again.So according to your theory I should give up my job,lose my house,my car, kids college education gone.I can get 4 part time jobs and maybe make up the income but oops no insurance.Maybe there's not enough of a gap between the rich and poor for you?Let's get rid of all the manufacturing jobs,I'am sure we won't need any of that stuff anyways.But at least the chinese will have jobs that pay 50 cents an hour.I'am sure human rights will be much better!I'll be coming to your house to live because you care about all those poor people,I'am barely hanging on now,so I wish you would think about all the Americans this will affect,and most of us are democrats.

[Dookus]

35. and when you DON'T outsource...

who's going to buy your product when the competition's is 20% cheaper?

[tx_dem41]

42. Well, I believe that the answer by many might be...

tariffs. Not my answer though. Fortress American will fail economically.

[Dookus]

44. exactly right...

tariffs really aren't the answer, and can backfire worse than they help.

[Solon]

50. I'm not against Globalization as a rule...

I oppose Top down Globalization that is instituted today. I agree with you that it is inevitable, however, I also believe that we should find a way to guide it to a point where the workers are calling the shots, not the Corporations. At this point in time, the Corporations are the robber barons of the age, and the insurmountable problems that go along with that are all present. This is a race to the bottom, and everyone, from our workers to workers in Honduras lose. We need to make the system, go from the bottom up, rather than having these high and mighty white men call the shots for the majority in the world.

[poe]

57. nonsense

globalization is a modern term for colonization, that's all. all of it is nasty. it is an energy sink, a form of slavery, an ecological disaster etc. i beg you to read" The case against globalization" edited by jerry mander and edwin goldsmith and look at the consequences on all fronts in all areas of the mythological "globalization"- as for being inevitable that is flat false. it requires copious amounts of petrochemicals and those days are numbered. we will be returnig to the local either harshly or ceremoniously. the PR machine has been spitting out the "inevitability" BS for years. celebrate your local economy. lift the curtain.

[Solon]

61. You may be right...

Of course, who knows when that will take place, that is why I would like to circumvent the neo-librals entirely and work with the people of these countries, form unions, fair wages, and democratic governance. That is an immediate concern, because even with the petrochemical hit, most of these countries have no domestic businesses to speak of that can help them pull out of the depression afterwards. Help them help themselves, and fuck the IMF and WTO.

[tx_dem41]

62. I think you are attacking the problem from the right direction.

I don't agree with most of what you said on this post. But, now that you mentioned working with the foreign workers, it puts a lot of the other posts in perspective. Thanks.

[Solon]

69. The key is to work with the People of these countries...

not their despotic governments, and the CEOs of Corporations should not have input at all. Labor rights, Enviromental laws and everything else should be in the package, not circumvented. Also, self determination should be preserved, not this damned bait and switch extortion orgs like the IMF and WTO that FORCE people that don't want to participate to have to, to their own detriment.

[eridani]

158. Bingo! As Arundhati Roy once said--

"The only thing worth globalizing is dissent."

[gizmo1979]

164. Amen brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:yourock:

[gizmo1979]

163. So we should just stand by

and let other countries dump there product here?They have no respect for patents or any of our laws this is how your free trade works?

[OneTwentyoNine]

48. 20% cheaper?!?!? BAWHAHAHA....that's a myth thats total BS

Levi Straus just had to shut down its remaining plants to "stay competitive" in this global economy. Yeah right,go into Khols,Levi's are the HIGHEST priced jeans of all that they sell.

There are actually one or two brands that are still made in the US and are cheaper.Maytag closed down plants and outsouced,drop in any store that sells Maytags...see ANY price difference??

That fucking myth about products being cheaper in price once high priced US labor is eliminated is total Bullshit.

[Dookus]

55. well

I'm talking from personal experience in consumer electronics. I don't know much about textile and garment manufacturing.

20% was a low estimate, btw.

[gizmo1979]

160. That's a bunch of crap

If you make China float it's currency there is a 27%increase in their prices right there.We can compete with anyone if given a chance!You want to continue the race to the bottom sooner or later what's left all because cheap bastards want to save a nickel?! Well I for one will pay the extra for American made goods,if you don't want to support the American worker you should maybe find a new party to join,because that's not the democratic party I know.

[aquart]

36. No, it won't be better.

You REALLY need to decide what this nation is for. So do the rest of us. We are NOT one world. We are many nations with competing and different needs. To say that it's okay for India to break out of the third world, which it has now signaled by refusing tsunami aid in case you didn't notice, with industries and jobs which formerly belonged to American workers is, pardon me, both callous and insane.

"Take a hit." I take you still have your job? Your children still have their jobs? You have money in the bank? Oh, sorry, that money isn't worth spit anymore.

This IS NOT a temporary hit. This is the end of American dominion. You like that? Goody. Tell me how much you like it next year.

You sound like the Republicans who believe they can change everything and still have everything the same. When Reagan encouraged the offshoring of our steel and tool and die industries, our end was assured. We just weren't paying attention.

[bullimiami]

38. outsourcing itself is not inherently wrong

its the government corrupt complicity in the exploitation of the most vulnerable for the benefit of the corporations and powerful that makes it wrong.

they exploit elsewhere because it is forbidden at home. america needs to export its civil rights along with its industry.

[hollowdweller]

40. Outsourcing will be what finally turns the US to a third world country.

Right now a lot of people like it because they can buy cheap consumer goods but eventually just like the cow that thinks the farmer is a great guy feeding him all that grain the day of reckoning comes.

We cut our timber and raw materials and send them off to other countries to be processed. The main problem with this is that almost all raw materials type of jobs dont' pay that much and only enrich those already rich.

People need to start thinking about their neighbors instead of their own greedy selves.

[diplomats]

64. I agree with Hollowdweller - we are going to end up a third-world

country with a third-world economy. When the Chinese and Indians with their exploding populations compete with us, there's no comparison. We're all going to be competing for jobs PLUS oil and other types of energy. That's only going to have an upward pressure on energy prices, making lower labor costs even more attractive to manufacturers. I really don't see a solution to the problem.

What nobody ever (or rarely) mentions is the fact that many of the products are made overseas with low labor costs and the price is AS EXPENSIVE AS IF IT WERE MADE HERE IN THE USA. Why not make them here and take less profit?

(And we used to think communism was our only major problem! How naive.)

Remember how safe economically it was for us when communism was the system of government in Russia and China? There was no competition with us. We were on top. Those were the days.:eyes:

[tx_dem41]

68. But prices aren't ONLY driven by labor costs or even cost to make ..

..the product. Supply and demand obviously plays a role. In other words, the prices are set to what people will pay for them.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. If you think it's such a good thing........

....I hope you will offer your home to someone and their family who can't make the mortgage because they lost their job due to outsourcing. As liberals, don't we care about others besides ourselves?

[Dookus]

personalizing it doesn't help

what's your solution? Outlaw outsourcing? How far do we go? Do we require all cars to be manufactured here? How about televisions?

Then we need tariffs on all imported goods to protect the more expensively-made US goods. Then other countries put tariffs on OUR goods and a global trade war begins.

Everybody decries outsourcing, but I haven't yet seen a reasonable solution to the problem.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

71. I think throwing up the hands and saying.........

......"Oh well, we should just take the hit for the sake of a global vision." isn't going to put food on our people's tables, which is why, yes, it IS bad. And saying we shouldn't "personalize" it sounds like a big business' Pontius Pilate routine.

I'm not saying I have a great answer, but handing out tax breaks and rewarding these companies for going elsewhere needs to stop. We've done the opposite of outlawing.

[Dookus]

75. I've already said

there shouldn't be tax benefits for doing so. But I don't think it's occurring because of those benefits. Removing them (which we should do) probably wouldn't have a noticeable impact.

But I still don't see a solution to the problem. People are highly emotional about the issue, but I haven't seen anybody propose a workable answer.

[UdoKier]

58. Outtsourcing is like using scabs, except they are out od the country.

and as such the don't see the results of their working for peanuts, and don't feel any responsibility for OUR communities. Of course, they shouldn't be blemed or expected to. But the fact that our business "leaders" don't care is what's really appalling. Our economy is being hollowed out. We are soon going to have a huge lower slave class, a third or so in an affluent upper-middle class, and 5% will be obscenely rich. The middle class is already a thing of the past in many areas. Certainly here in the SF Bay Area.

[Dookus]

59. I'll keep asking

what's the solution? Will outlawing it work?

[UdoKier]

74. Using government disincentives for foreign outsourcing will not stop it.

It would, however, slow things down enough to allow workers more time to develop new skills or leave via natural attrition. There is no defensible reason for actually giving companies TAX BREAKS to relocate manufacturing overseas.

It shows what filth run both corporate America and Washington.

Accelerating the pace of outsourcing does NOT make us more competitive as a nation. It makes us into more of a banana republic.

[Solon]

76. I have a tentative solution...

Make it like the EU but global, for example, to join the EU, you have to be a democracy, and your government has a say in the economic policies of the whole organization. I don't see why we have to rely on bankers and CEOs to make decisions for 6 billion people, with little to no input from those people at all. It would be slow and a painful transition, however it may actually benefit more than it hurts. How can free trade be free if the workers cannot move to better opportunities? To have true free trade would have to include consistancy in how it is implemented, for example, in labor law, or in enviromental law, somehow we will reach a point where the United States and other countries will have to repeal those laws to remain competitive as the system is now. Would you like to have the 40 hr workweek revoked? How about the minimum wage? At what point do the people of the world get up and say "ENOUGH!" to the atrocities commited to them. From one corner of the globe to the other, people will get sick of this type of Globalization we have now, then what will happen?

[Dookus]

78. I would like to see that, too

but I honestly don't see it happening anytime in the next few decades.

[Solon]

81. But, it would help to make even baby steps, in that direction...

besides, at what point does it become too intolerable for you? Is it really that hard to support an idea, even if it can't be achieved in your lifetime, in the hope that it will be achieved in your children's lifetime?

[Dookus]

85. I never said I don't support your ideas

but honestly, solon, this thread is for the discussion of a narrow issue - outsourcing.

[Solon]

92. Hell I always think too big sometimes...

The problem comes when you focus on an issue so narrowly that it becomes one in and of itself. It is easy to look at outsourcing, and say it is bad, and it is, without looking at the conditions that cause it in the first place. Why do you think I concentrated so much on labor and enviromental laws? That's because those are the two biggest motivators for outsourcing, our laws are too restrictive for these companies, and they prefer working in enviroments where they can lessen the cost to themselves, regardless of the human cost to us all. Think about this, if laws in all the countries of the world were comparable to ours, their would be less outsourcing because their is less money to save.

Standards of living may be different, but if let's say a worker in an African country was "only" making let's say 3 dollars an hour compared to our 5.15, instead of pennies a day now, then a company would be less inclined to outsource, and instead may open a factory in that country for the consumers there, because it saves in shipping costs. So you would have the same company working in two different countries, making mostly the same product, but instead of sucking money out of one country and dumping it in the other, like now, it raises both up to comparable standards of living.

[Dookus]

96. I think we agree on most of what you say

but we need to change the way the WORLD thinks about this stuff. There's a boot-strapping problem in the third-world. They need their own labor and environmental protections, but they're not likely to get them until they can build SOME sort of economy.

I agree with your idea that large-scale environmental and labor compacts need to be signed by all these nations. I'm just sort of flummoxed as to how to get them to do it. Nations are competing for some of these jobs, and there'll always be some country, somewhere, that will strike a deal. Similarly, we have states in the US competing to see who can give the bigger tax break or reduced regulation to companies that build plants there. It is, indeed, a very large, very complicated problem.

[Solon]

105. The biggest problem that I can see...

Is that many of these countries are not democracies. Also, there are ways to build up economies in them that will create a middle class without taking their resources, labor and natural, and not give anything back. One why I can see is to infuse democratic governments with grants, on creveats that they abide by internationally recognized labor, enviromental, and human rights laws. This way, local business can crop up through their own government grants that will build up economies to an extent where they can become both manufacturers and consumers of their own and other's goods.

A combination of Bilateral and Multilateral trade agreements with countries around the world will make it a more even keeled marketplace. One that can benefit us all rather than benefit the few. Eventually we could then form an EU type organization, it is already in the beginnings of the process in other parts of the world, regionally. It needs to be encouraged, so that the people of these regions can actually have a say as to how their governments treat trade agreements. Right now it is an elaborate pyramid scheme that benefits no one but the ones already rich and corrupt government officials, we should work to change that.

[Solon]

110. I wanted to make an addition to my previous comment...

You were talking about the boot strap comment for third world countries. I somewhat agree, hense why I said grants and not loans. As the system works now, a poor country may suffer a crop failure or some other disaster that is economically devastating, and they go to practically the only organization that they can, the IMF. The problem is the IMF will loan them whatever money they needed, charge outragious interest rates, and at the same time, tell them to open their borders, and dismantle any labor, enviromental, and any other laws that are Anti-Business, as they would put it. This isn't helping them pull themselves up, this is using the iron heel to slam them down and keep them there, until the loan is paid off in a century, they are trapped in a vicious cycle of exploitation of their resources, with few to no benefits for their people, with the exception of any officials that were bought off. This leaves many of these countries devastated, with little to no recourse but to accept even more restrictive deals, until most of their populace is enslaved by Multinationals who call the shots.

[K-W]

82. We enforce the borders of our state.

We remove the policies that allow our companies to easily skip over our borders.

Globalization didnt just happen, without most people knowing they made it happen. They crafted the trade laws and international law. We just have to correct the laws so that corporations tha operate in the US are forced to work to the benefit of the US. If we dont harness the supposed dynemo of capitalism how on earth are we going to benefit from it? Its like lighting a fire in your driveway because your house is cold.

We do what countries are supposed to do, keep the economy functioning to benefit the state. I love how when the elites controlled government, government was, of course, in charge of the economy and we had mercantilism.

Now that our government gives a voice to the people, however unbalanced, the elites form thier own organizations and go plundering without us.

We need to take what is rightfully ours as American citizens and determine our own economic destiny.

[tx_dem41]

83. What policies make it...

easier for companies to "skip over our borders"?

[K-W]

88. US trade laws and international trade laws.

We dont have an open border. The government can do anyting from directly control what is shipped to structuring tariffs and duties.

Also the structure of the international economic systems, which were designed by corporations. And the economies of many nations that we force to participate in our economy.

The US government is supposed to look out for the general welfare, right now it is taking bribes from the top 1% to look the other way while they screw us, and its about time we stopped taking it.

[Dookus]

86. then tell us

how you solve it. Do we outlaw outsourcing? Then, when other countries do the same thing and the US loses even MORE jobs because of it, what then?

Do we add tariffs to foreign goods? What happens when other countries retaliate?

How much will Americans pay for a television manufactured in the US?

[K-W]

90. Why on earth are you scared of alternatives

when the current system was specially designed to screw you?

We wouldnt be adding tarrifs, stop drinking the economic kool-aid. We have tariffs, we have customs, we control our borders. There was a time when only white men voted. Back then they didnt mind so much that the government controlled the economy. The government is supposed to control the countries resource flow. The government is supposed to make sure our trade is benefitting us. None of this is weird or radical.

All we have to do to stop them from outsourcing production is make them pay for it when they come back. There is nothing in the slightest bit wrong or weird with a government telling people that if they want to take jobs elsewhere theyve got to pay us to sell the products here and that is exactly what we should do.

And yes, I do expect other countries to follow, and good. Until we have setup a legitimate governing system for a global society we should avoid throwing barriers down just because our corporations have made it seem natural.

[Dookus]

93. I'm not afraid of anything

I just haven't seen a proposed solution that doesn't make the problem worse.

My experience is in consumer electronics. We designed them, tested them, marketed them, sold them here. Manufactured them elsewhere. You think we should've paid a premium for doing that? How much?

We were competing with companies like SONY. Since they would not be bound by the same strictures, their product would be cheaper. So would need a tariff on SONY products then?

[K-W]

99. Of course we should put a tariff on SONY products if neccessary.

I just dont understand what problem you see here. We as a country should control through tariffs and regulations our interactions with other economies to make sure that the effect serves the best interests of the American people.

[Solon]

108. The problem is that it is short sighted...

While I agree with your sentiments, the solutions are much more complex that a trade war would only make the situation worse. Tariffs at this point in time would destroy much of our own domestic electronics industry. What we should do instead is coopt the neo-liberal agenda in Globalization and put it in the hands of the poor and disenfranchised. The poor in our country have much more in common with the poor in another than they would ever have with an American CEO, so why try to protect the CEO at the expense of ourselves?

[K-W]

111. No it isnt short sighted, and at least it is realisitic.

I think betting on a little dose of isolationism so we can straighten up our house and approach globalization as a democratic nation and not let our corporate cart go ahead of the horse is a much better plan than thinking we can democratize our economy in what would be an uprecdented social revolution.

The corporations are shortsighted, thinking we should retool our and the worlds economy so that nations control thier own economies because a time when we have the international society that can support a free economy is very far away.

[Solon]

127. I think the biggest dilemma is that we are not at the point...

where change can happen for a while. With Bush in office, it is impossible to even think about such acts. I'm afraid that we may have to look outside our borders, where resistance to Globalization is increasing, and find support there. What will the United States and most of the rest of the Western World do if the factory floor became empty? Maybe then we can find solutions, because I'm afraid the initiative for change is well beyond our borders and will be the burden of the third world again, to throw off the scourge of new colonialism. The most we can do is give them the support they need to help stabalize the situation.

[K-W]

132. I think mission one is disconnecting the US empire.

And then its a matter of an international movement to fill the vacuum with progressive international law and cooperation.

I just dont think we can swing our empire into a just global broker. I think that is arrogant and unwise. We need to bring the US back into its borders, take our government back to the people and get it out of the empire business and then use our government to push for strengthened international cooperation.

[Solon]

134. I agree...

The United States will not turn into a just broker unless forced into that position. We are not nearly powerful enough, economically or militarily, to turn the tide if the majority of people in the world want economic reform. The biggest problem is support, when I say support, I don't mean our government supporting the cause, but us, citizens and workers of this nation lending a helping hand to those of others so we can actually all rise up together. We need to support those organizations that are on the front lines in the battle, from enviromentalists to unions, they all need to join in common cause against those who keep them under their boots.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

140. To answer your questions, Dookus

1. We can't outlaw outsourcing, but the government can provide a disincentive by giving preference in government contracts to companies that have the majority of their workforces in the U.S. They may be U.S. or foreign owned--it's the workers who are important, not the CEOs or the shareholders, who will survive just fine no matter what.

2. I'd put tariffs on goods from countries that don't have fair labor or environmental standards.

3. While shopping to replace my VCR, I saw people paying $1000 and up for HDTVs. When I bought my first VCR in 1986, I paid $400, and I didn't feel overcharged.

When I was a college senior in 1972, the lowest price stereo was $200--about $1000 in today's prices, or about the same as a computer. We lived. People live just fine without electronic gizmos.

Jeans, made in U.S.A., were $5.00 at Penney's, as were shirts ($3 on sale) and shoes were about $15.

Ever been to Payless Shoe Source? The same sweatshops that make Nikes and other name brand shoes also make no-name shoes for Payless, but Payless sells them for about 1/5 the price. If Nike "needs" to outsource, why aren't they selling their shoes for the same price as Payless?

[Dookus]

141. thanks Lydia

as to:

1) no problem. I think such incentives are very reasonable. I also don't know that they'd accomplish a lot, but the motivation for them is good.

2) tariffs are always tricky. What happens when the EU puts tariffs on OUR products because our labor and/or environmental standards don't meet theirs? And what are the right labor standards? Do wages have to equal those in the US?

3) yes, people will pay a lot for things, but if two equivalent products are side-by-side on the shelf, they'll buy the cheaper one. There ARE no televisions manufactured in the US. What do we do then - stop selling TVs altogether?

As I stated elsewhere, my personal history is with consumer electronics, not textiles or garments. I also know that the people manufacturing the products I worked on were not slave laborers working sweat shops. They had desirable jobs in a safe factory. Furthermore, I KNOW that the companies I worked for could not have competed price-wise, if we had to manufacture in the US. These companies were not making huge profits - in fact they STILL struggle to make a profit at all.

I'll be the first to admit that some large corporations abuse the system out of greed. But many don't - they're trying to stay afloat in a global marketplace.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

145. Why should we care if a corporation stays afloat if the only

Americans employed by it are in the executive ranks? What makes it an American corporation if its workers live everywhere but America?

[Dookus]

146. I think

you have an odd view of this. The companies I worked for employ thousands of people in the US, not just executives. It's just some functions can be done more cheaply and effectively elsewhere.

Tech Support, for instance, used to be done here in Silicon Valley onsite. Then, even in the 80s, it became more affordable to use call centers in Salt Lake City, Austin, Atlanta and the like. Then it became cheaper and effective to do it in Canada and Ireland. Now it's India that's getting a lot of the work. The fact is, Tech Support is a huge cost for a tech company - a cost that often makes the difference between profitable and not profitable. Who benefits if the company goes under altogether? Isn't it better to keep half the jobs here than have none at all?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

147. What good is tech support if the personnel speak inadequate English?

I've had some mighty frustrating encounters.

[Dookus]

148. ok

I'll stop trying to discuss it because I bring up multiple, thought-out points and all I get back is a one-liner. What good is... what good is....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

149. Okay, I'll give you a two-liner

As other people have said, somehow everyone's expendable--tech support, manufacturing, R&D, all can be shed because they're "too expensive." Yet some of these companies that find American workers "too expensive" pay huge salaries and bonuses to their CEOs and other executives and spend vast amounts on mergers and acquisitions--what Robert Reich called "paper entrepreneurism."

Instead of outsourcing workers, why not hire a CEO from China or India who will be delighted to work for, say, $500,000 a year?

And in the end, the question always come back to, What about the workers left behind in the mad rush to guarantee corporate profits--or executive bonuses and shareholder dividends, more likely? Remember, a company's stock tends to go up when it cuts jobs, because that raises profits and therefore dividends.

[Dookus]

150. well

none of that addresses any of the points I made.

Yes, there are many, many downsides to outsourcing for American workers - I've never implied otherwise. My main point, though, is that it's often a necessary development, and we're never putting that genie back in the bottle. We live and trade in a global marketplace, and we have to find ways to deal with it.

Loss of manufacturing jobs is not new. We had this debate in the 70s. Now it's happening in high-tech - a field I've worked in for 20 years. I just finished two YEARS of being unemployed because much of what I do is no longer done in the US. But do I expect any company to make poor business decisions because of it? No.

Also, the idea that cutting jobs always raises profits is false. There's always some optimal point, and yes, as conditions and times change, companies have to trim. That's always been the case. But it's not a linear equation - otherwise every company would lay off everybody and make maximum profits.

[K-W]

63. This is empire, not globalization.

Glonalization isnt something forced on economies by american corporations. Globalization is the painstaking process of building the infastructure for for a just democratic global society.

The idea that just because there is cheap labor in other countries we must let our corporations go exploit them is mindless.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

67. Others have responded eloquently on this thread. To a degree, it is an

inevitability of our near future, Kerry conceded as much. It's just a reality of the facts you have stated, the availability of much cheaper labor, both skilled and unskilled, elsewhere.

The problem is that shrubco's approach is that they're just happy that this is going on, because it benefits the only people they care about, rich corporate barons, by lowering their bottom line. Those "outsourced" can go eat Wal-Mart cake, for all shrub and his buds care. There is no apparent effort to address the issue seriously for those affected, as it's not realistic to tell all the 48-50 year old worker "outsourced" workers to learn some new skill (i.e. the next thing to be "outsourced") at their local community college. Some will do this and benefit from reeducation but as a broadly applicable solution it's just not realistic.

[neebob]

73. My problem is not so much what they do; it's why they do it.

Which only goes to prove my theory: COMPANIES SUCK. Well, most of them do, anyway. Very few companies don't suck.

[B0S0X87]

77. Some food for thought- insourcing

For those of you who think that outsourcing is going to destroy America...

http://www.ofii.org/newsroom/news/040920ctfp.cfm

http://www.ofii.org/newsroom/news/040528wt.cfm

And I know the Times is a right-wing rag, but they present some interesting figures.

Thanks for starting this thread, Curse10. I thought I was the only one who doesn't see globalization as the greatest evil in the world today.

[Dookus]

80. very good point

the US would be be a net LOSER of jobs if all other countries prohited outsourcing.

There was an effort in California to deny state contracts to companies that outsource. Then it was pointed out that if England had the same rules, California would lose jobs - a lot of British IT work is done here in California.

We can't impose solutions in a vacuum. Anything we do will be met by similar responses from other countries (whether it's outlawing outsourcing, tariffs, etc.) that will lead to even bigger problems.

[bvar22]

84. Solution???

Bi-lateral trade agreements predicated on Labor Rights, Human Rights, and Environmental Protections.

Globalization may be inevitable, but it doesn't have to destroy the Environment or the Labor Class of the USA (or ANY country). We can slow this dog down and make sure protections are in place before the Investor Class completely rapes the Working Class.

Under the current Trade Agreements, there are NO protections for Labor. The ONLY protections are for GUARANTEED PROFITS.

"The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) includes an array of new corporate investment rights and protections that are unprecedented in scope and power. NAFTA allows corporations to sue the national government of a NAFTA country in secret arbitration tribunals if they feel that a regulation or government decision affects their investment..."

http://www.citizen.org/trade/nafta/CH__11/index.cfm

Bi-lateral trade agreements predicated on Labor Rights, Human Rights, and Environmental Protections.

This solution is not magical or mythical. It is pratical and easy to implement and monitor. This solution is being offered by The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

http://www.pdamerica.org/


The Republican-Lites of the Democratic Party would have you believe the message of the original poster to this thread.

American Labor (the middle class) CAN and SHOULD DEMAND this solution
immediately. But don't expect your Corporate Owned Democratic represenative to inform you. The DLC would prefer you to continue to believe that:

Globalization is inevitable. There is nothing we can do.
You may hurt for a while , but the people in China will be doing sooo much better.
.
.
.
.
to which I say:

PREDATORY GLOBAL NONSENSE
PURE Investor Class Corpoganda!




For a strong America, with economic justice and opportunity for ALL:
Bi-lateral trade agreements predicated on Labor Rights, Human Rights, and Environmental Protections.

[robcon]

91. Outsourcing has driven the U.S. economy up for more than ten years

Outsourcing was at least as responsible as the internet bubble for the economic growth of the 90's. Outsourcing has two benefits... to the economies who get goods/services less expensively, and the economies which produce the goods and services.

[bvar22]

95. And those chickens are NOW coming home to roost.

Record Trade Deficits
Record Personal Bankruptcies
Record Home Defaults
Record Unemployment
Dollar in FreeFall


But hey, the RICH are doing well.

[Solon]

109. LOL, that's true...

they don't like facts too much, not when it messes with "Common Sense". Our economic collapse may be inevatiable, but its what we do afterwards that will make the difference, for our children and grandchildren.

[AuntiBush]

124. Agreed!

[K-W]

106. You have bought into a myth.

Especially if you think we are helping other nations by forcing them to cut social spending while providing slave labor jobs.

[EC]

94. With regulations and maybe restrictions of how much can

be sent over seas by each corp. Especially in the manufacturing, we have to keep making things here. There's going to come a time real soon when other countries are going to refuse to sell us stuff because of our credit, so we had better be able to make it here. Also, I see it as taking opportunities away from the people of other countries that want to start their own businesses (and hire people)since basically the American companies are going to these other countries and eliminating the competition. Maybe if our companies offered franchises or something, so it would be locals actually owning the firm, company, factory that is offering the jobs being outsourced.

The same premise as giving them rice, instead of the seed and farming equipment to grow the rice.

Then there is the standards, such as pay, hours and safety. Also, dumping which is what China has been doing. But with all the attention China has been giving to South America and Cuba...I think they'll be starting to deal more with them and other countries not using the dollar, anything but American Dollar.

[enki23]

98. it is when capital is organized, and highly mobile, while labor isn't

"outsourcing" is another word for forcing labor pools into competition so that capital can firm up its grip on labor, making sure that labor's value is the lowest it could possibly be--worldwide. at the same time, capital is spending billions on PR, on international agreements between capitalists, and on legislation to further inhibit the ability of labor to cooperate globally. as if labor ever had much of a chance to operate globally the way capital does anyway.

in other words, some workers will gain from "outsourcing." but overall, it is absolutely inevitable that the workers of the world will be poorer for it.

[K-W]

103. It is multinational undemocratic organizations

becoming international power players.

[meow2u3]

113. Outsourcing robs people of their dignity as human beings

IMO, outsourcing is the same as stealing: stealing a person's livelihood; his or her dignity; and one's humanity, to name a few.

Catholics would also say outsourcing flies in the face of the 7th Commandment--Thou Shalt Not Steal, as well as name it one of the sins crying to heaven for vengeance: injustice to the wage earner.

Outsourcing American jobs is evil, a crime against humanity which should be punished if we had the rule of law instead of the law of the jungle.

[Dookus]

115. very dramatic....

but what's the solution?

And what do you do about all the Americans that work for foreign corporations - in other words, the American BENEFACTORS of foreign outsourcing?

[bvar22]

118. For the SOLUTION, see post #84.

N/T

[Solon]

120. I agree with you bvar22...

I liked the post, though I would say we should go further than that, it is a good first step. It is one way to improve relations with all nations and people, and ensure that it is fair trade for all.

[bvar22]

128. I would go farther.

Another Fair Trade pratice would stipulate that if a MegaCorporation is able to negotiate a lower price from a supplier, that same price MUST be made available to smaller businesses importing the same product.

But Bi-Lateral Trade Agreements are the Foundation that makes emforcement of Fair Trade Practices possible.

[Dookus]

123. well

when I read things like "investor class corpoganda" I get the sense I'm reading a screed, not a detailed argument.

However, I agree we need better agreements regarding labor and environmental standards. As discussed above, though, I think it will be very difficult to enact them anytime soon.

In the meantime, though, people seem to want to end outsourcing. I haven't seen a proposal for doing so that wouldn't have repercussions that make the problems in the US even worse.

[bvar22]

130. Bi Lateral Trade agreements could be enacted TOMORROW!

When I read statements like "outsourcing is GOOD for the Working American", I am absolutely SURE I am reading screed (or another term "Corpoganda").

For more in-depth details on Fair Trade (which addresses outsourcing), try Google, or Dennis Kucinich, or Ralph Nader.

[Dookus]

131. well you certainly never saw ME

type "outsourcing is good for the working American".

My position is that it's inevitable, and cuts both ways. 6.4 million Americans are employed by foreign corporations. If WE outlaw outsourcing, then other countries could do the same, causing us more damage.

And I doubt we could make bilateral trade agreements with all nations on Earth by tomorrow.

[bvar22]

136. And I never advocated "outlawing" outsourcing.

I do strongly advocate the withdrawing from ALL the alphabet soup Trade Treaties ASAP, and renegotiating bi-lateral Trade Agreements with each trade partner. On a balanced playing field, the American Worker can compete with anyone, the environment is protected, trade balance can be regulated, and Human Rights enforced.

Outsourcing CAN cut both ways, but the REALITY is IT DOESN'T, not today, and not under the current environment.

Citing the figure of 6.4 Million jobs imported without citing the figure of the Tens of Millions of jobs lost is what I refer to as Corpoganda.

You will have to provide a link for your figure and answer several questions before you can be taken seriously.

1) How many American jobs have been lost to outsourcing?

2) Is the imbalance improving for the American Worker?

3) Are the imported jobs as good as the exported jobs?


Most of the 6.4 million jobs you happily cite are lower paying and lower or no benefit jobs. Some GlobalCorps rotate jobs overseas, and re-import the same jobs...only now lower pay and no benefits.



I really though that the bogus outsourcing is good for America had been thoroughly debunked by now. I tend to get a little chapped when the same old corpoganda emerges in new wrappers.

Really, people who believe this must not get out very often, or only get their news from the CorpoMedia. They certainly haven't talked to any Americans in the job market.

[Dookus]

137. corpoganda...

sigh.

I never said the things you attribute to me. Good night.

[B0S0X87]

138. Not true

Most of the 6.4 million jobs you happily cite are lower paying and lower or no benefit jobs. Some GlobalCorps rotate jobs overseas, and re-import the same jobs...only now lower pay and no benefits.

Actually, foreign subsidaries pay, on average, 31% more than U.S. companies.

[Dookus]

142. yes

I found that statistic, too. But it will be dismissed as "corpoganda".

The fact is, this issue just isn't as simple as some people make it out to be. It's not ALL about rich, evil plutocrats figuring out more ways to opress the working man. That's a cartoon depiction of the problem, and yields cartoon solutions.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

143. There's a difference between outsourcing manufacturing jobs

to make products to be reimported to the U.S. (as Nike does) or outsourcing manufacturing jobs to make products that are to be sold in the country where they are manufactured (as the Japanese car companies do).

The former is a dirty trick played on American consumers. It's saying, "Oh, look, here's a cheap DVD player for you!" on one hand and saying, "We're taking away your job so that all you can afford is a cheap DVD player" on the other.

The latter approach benefits the company by reducing shipping costs and, in real life, jobs at foreign companies offer pay that matches U.S. living standards. (Once I worked on a temporary translation assignment for a Japanese semiconductor manufacturer in Gresham, Oregon. I had to go through new employee orientation even for this temp job, and I reported on my experiences to the woman who found jobs for street kids at the program I volunteered for. She was impressed when I told her about the wages and benefits offered even to the lowliest assembly workers.)

Another form of "beneficial" globalization is my own situation. I'm a freelance translator. Thanks to the time difference, I can provide native English translations to Japanese clients overnight. There are some native English-speaking translators living in Japan, but not enough, and they don't want to stay up all night if they don't have to. Overseas translators like myself meet a need that the Japanese have without taking away jobs from Japanese people (who cannot produce native English unless they have grown up abroad).

[HughBeaumont]

114. Um, NO.

I definitely don't support propping up one middle class at the expense of another. What exactly are these "new fields" that the American worker can realistically train for while still paying his/her bills? Where is the new technology going to come from? Invention isn't going to save Joe Sixpack like it would have 25 years ago - he just does not have the technological savvy nor the costly materials to work with. Pro-offshorers are in this belief that skill is the issue and the cure, and it so unbelievably full of shit it's not even funny. They act like Indians and other intelligent, English-speaking people in Asian countries are somehow going to be barred from mirroring any fields we get degrees in; like they have no access to universities, no means of learning. To the contrary - it's FAR easier for an Indian (not to mention cheaper for him) to get a degree in his home country than it is for me to get one in mine.

I could get a PhD in, say, biochemistry and be in demand . . . uh, but so, in turn, could an Indian, who can work for far cheaper since his wages can afford a relatively better cost-of-living in his home country than my wages can bring in America. That combined with the fact that biochemistry-related positions aren't location-bound, and you got yourself an ugly precedent that's only going to get worse as the years go on.

You let corporations have their way and that's exactly what's going to happen - zero progress for everyone making less than six figures a year.

Unfortunately, the plutocrats would like to see everyone under their thumbs forever, using us as nothing more than disposable drones and putting a stop to that silly thing called retirement. They're playing pro-offshorers for fools and they're buying into it hook, line and sinker.

[ultraist]

116. WTF would we want the top R&D leaving our country?

WHY do we want to lose our status of having the best R&D, thus, the best Universities & the biggest breakthroughs in Medicine & Science (which of course, includes the best weapons)?

NO THANKS TO THIRD WORLD COUNTRY STATUS. THAT is what is happening. Companies are moving their R&D offshore.

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE JOBS, although it's outrageous that we give corporate welfare to companies that VIOLATE OSHA STANDARDS AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

What are these unemployed people supposed to do? Let their homes be foreclosed on and take a job they are over qualified for? MOST of these laid off employees have CHILDREN to care for.

We need more of balance of integrating into a global market (moving away from isolationism) and maintaining our super power status.

[greendog]

122. I'm overwhelmed by curse10's "liberal" generosity...

...she says maybe *WE* should take this hit. Then, a little further down thread she reveals "*I* "chose" to get into a field that cannot be outsourced".

curse10 would do well to remember that many of us "chose" our careers before the Clinton Presidency and it's gift of NAFTA, GATT and all the rest. She should also note that many of us "choose" to believe that those who espouse such ideas don't have our best interests at heart. She might also consider that it's our "choice" to vote for whomever we damn well please....and if curse10's Democratic Party isn't willing to look after our interests we might not feel obliged to look after hers.

That's her "choice".

[ComerPerro]

133. several problems

First, there are 2 kinds of globalization. There is the liberal brand, in which wealth spreads to all parts of the globe. But there is also the conservative, PNAC type, in which America's richest companies control everything and exploit everyone, everywhere.

Second, the practice of outsoucring not only hurts American jobs, but also exploits the workers in foreign countries. The reason many companies outsource is because they can get the same labor for literally pennies on the dollar.

Third, these companies outsource while hiding behind the American flag. They do business with the US and claim to be American companies yet they pay hardly any taxes and they employ few Americans. Many corporations are given tax breaks in the hopes that they will hire Americans and pay them well. But, they don't. They just use the difference to pad the pockets of the CEOs.

Outsourcing could be good if it were done with good intentions. But, sadly, this doesn't seem to be what is happening at all.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

139. Unfortunately, raising foreign living standards is the last thing on their

minds.

The normal trend is for companies to use unskilled workers, not train local people for higher positions or share technology, and then move on when an even cheaper country opens up. Mexico is losing jobs to China, which is losing jobs to Vietnam.

Only Taiwan and South Korea have been able to use "outsourcing" as a road to prosperity, but they 1) spent a lot of money on education and infrastructure, 2) insisted that foreign companies train locals for technological and management positions, and 3) insisted that foreign companies turn their technology and their facilities over to locals when they left the country.

Otherwise, this model of trade widens the gap between rich and poor, as it has been doing in China, India, and Mexico. Some people get very rich, but others either stay the same or lose ground.

Besides, even The Economist, hardly a liberal rag, and one that thinks "free" trade will cure the common cold, has asked the question, "What about the working class? What will happen to our (in their case, the UK) people when all the jobs are gone?"

It would be less distorting to economies all over the world if countries would form free trade associations only with nations of similar economic status. ASEAN in Southeast Asia is a good example.

Free trade is also fine when a Third World country produces something that other countries cannot, such as Jamaica producing bauxite. However, the Western countries have tended to try to drive prices down instead of paying a fair price.

[ultraist]

144. Excellent points, but...

it's not just unskilled workers. Engineers, researchers, Scientists, etc abroad are taking jobs from professionals here at home. Companies are moving over more than just their factories. They are moving over R&D, tech services, upper management, etc

If the US loses the edge, we lose our position in the world. This is about a lot more than low paying manufacturing jobs.

I also agree that it is simply wrong for these companies to skirt out of taxes, recieve corporate welfare, all while their employees work under substandard conditions and neglect environmental standards.

[lapauvre]

151. Just a drop in note (probably lengthy)

FYI, love, I don't think you are the only one who thinks outsourcing is a super great idea.

There are very many countries who would like to think that their irresponsibility for the abuse of their citizens, their failure to provide jobs for them, their failure to permit them human rights, their failure to learn from the example of the United States, is somehow the responsibility of the taxpayers, workers, poor, human rights denied, suffering US citizens, to give up their lives, their jobs, their innovations, their young military, and say hooray for us, we saved the world, but Japan and China's surplus money now owns the lives of every American.

We are borrowing money from countries to whom we have been more than generous, all things considered, especially Communist China who considers us their own whore, not even a prostitute. A whore. We don't get paid by China, we just service them, governmentally, because we feel that's why we're here. Or it seems that way.

The greatest trouble I have with this suggested leftist American flaw of not supporting outsourcing, is that we happen to be Americans. If we have to not only put every man woman and child, and even the yet to be born into debt and deprivation and suffering because the rest of the world is too damned irresponsible to learn from us, then tough for the rest of the world. The rest of the world isn't worth that kind of sacrifice of generations of Americans. The number of generations of Americans what is happening NOW will affect, will result in Americans being in the same plight. And do you think any other country would help US?

And, actually, what the hell good have we done for those overpopulated countries.

We happen to rule the Western Hemisphere. We control it. We have some sort of doctrine or oath or treaty or whatever that says, t---sorry te letter tat comes after g on my keyboard isn't working----but you know w'ere it belongs. well, let's see if I fixed it.

h h h h h h h h h So far so good.

...treaty or whatever says that only we can act in the Western Hemisphere precludes other countries from butting in without risking war with us.

Look at the condition of country south of our border and evaluate.
Are they better educated because of us? Are they less in poverty because of us? Are their citizens more equipped with human rights than they were a hundred years ago. Are they more friendly to the USA than they used to be? Are their people better off. Not no, but HELL no.

I think JFK said something like: Ask not what your country can do for you; ask rather what you can do for your country.

For my country, I am willing to do a whole hell of a lot. But to sell out American children's futures, American jobs, go to Soylient Green tactics with our elderly and disabled, to put American's workers in poverty, while our leadership and our corporate welfare sucks up taxpayer money, and foreign slave labor profits is just not on MY American Leftist agenda.

The fact that China is rich enough for the United States of America to owe China, a communist country, a human rights violator, a slave labor user, a great deal of our national debt is absolutely disgusting to me.

[makhno]

155. As a woman ...

... your support for the neo-liberal economic dogma is particularly appalling. Consider for a moment that most of the fundamental rights you currently have - the right to vote, the right to equal pay, maternity leave among others - were gained by organized workers' opposition to the very economic doctrine you are defending as being somehow progressive.

You have things backwards. It is not us in the West who have too much and need to readjust our spoiled ways, it is our brothers and sisters in the Third World who have too little - and what they have today is exactly what we would've had (and perhaps will have) if capitalism were allowed to run its course unbridled. How can you speak of progress in the context of an ideology that seeks, first and foremost, to minimize the human and economic rights of workers while pitting them against each other in destructive nationalistic and racial conflicts?

Why defend the right of capital to unrestricted global mobility instead of defending the right of labor to dignity and livable wages on a global scale?

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

156. nope, I think its evil too, and when I am calling customer service

and I get somebody in India, I start screaming for their supervisor, and keep it up until I get an American, and then I tell them I will not do business with customer service in India. If they want my business, they can get somebody in the USA on the damned phone. I closed my Target charge account because their customer service was in India, and told them that was why. There will be many more such incidents in my future, I am sure.

[Dookus]

159. yes, there will be

I worry about the nationalistic rah-rah-ism caused by this issue. Freepers have the same exact arguments. I really feel bad for people who get yelled at simply for being Indian - they don't deserve it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

161. i dont care about outsourcing if its fair

however the underlying racism of those who critique outsourcing on du makes me :puke:

[spanone]

162. Great theory until you try to explain your cable bill to someone in India

[SoCalDem]

165. There's outsourcing, and then there's OUTSOURCING.

When a company like..say..... Singer sewing machine company closes its doors, lays off all its US employees and sends all the equipment south, where they can now pay $1 a DAY to workers, and then ship the sewing machines back here and still charge the "regular" price, that's NOT OK. Where does the "extra" money made go?? To the pockets of the CEO's and the fat cats on Wall Street.

Are the Mexican workers any better off?? Not really.. Do the American buyers of Singer sewing machines get a break on the price they pay?? Nope..

How about the "displaced" workers?

When a LOT of suddenly unemployed people are "available" in one community, it affects the jobs of ALL the other workers. Are there enough available jobs for the displaced ones to even find? People who are suddenly unemployed are desperate people who will work longer hours for less money if given the chance. Employers know this, and can use it as "leverage" when negotiating with their own employees.

What about all that income that's sudden;suddenly gone from the community? Less money to spend directly relates to the amount of hours given to a "mostly part-time" workforce. It starts a downward spiral.

Unemployed (scared) people tend to NOT SPEND MONEY unless it's vital to their family.. less movies..less dinners out..not many trips to the mall or downtown.. not many car sales..

Back to the Mexican workers..

Do we really believe that Mexico is such a poor country, that they cannot spur development and create their own jobs? They have silver, they have oil, they have agriculture, they have tourism. What the hell is wrong with Mexico?? They receive aid from US, and yet little if any trickles down to the public. Why do they do it? Because they CAN..and because they "know" that the peasants will just keep moving and eventually the poorest of the poor will eventually make their way to the US, and Mexico will no longer even have to deal with them.

It makes so much more sense to have as near full-employment as you can get, and then keep the money within your own community. The whole idea of globalization is fine, but I would prefer "regionalization" instead of globalization.

The poorest of the poor countries have only experienced the exploitative side of globalization anyway. The only ones who have really benefitted are the ones who were doing ok before.. The majority of the people in "globalized" areas have gotten the short end of the stick.. They are the ones who must live near the polluted water, the destroyed rain forests,who still live in hovels, and now toil for pennies a day and must "return" most of what they do earn in the form of "payments" for services that once were free for the taking..

It's all a case of "be careful what you ask for" .. Progress, just for the sake of progress is not always a good thing.

[American Tragedy]

166. I have a question, curse10.

<<People in more skilled jobs. People in better paying jobs, that can't be outsourced. A happier, more productive workforce.>>


Specifically what more skilled, better paying jobs that can't be outsourced are you referring to? What occupations are these displaced workers going to take up now?

[Stirk]

167. Outsourced labor is a horrible thing- especially when you have a

corporate-controlled government.

Our country's foreign policy is designed to serve the needs of large US corporations. They aren't just chasing cheap labor around the globe- they create cheap labor markets by having "business-friendly" regimes installed in target countries.

Labor movements in these countries are shattered. Workers don't have protections, or a safety net, or decent wages, or anything else they might expect in the US.

Since corporations have so much influence in our government, outsourcing means that our tax dollars will continue to be used not only to undermine domestic labor, but to aggressively attack legitimate, sovereign nations.

The problem is a hell of alot bigger than having to deal with Indian customer service folks.