Contraception is a form of abortion: Discuss

[prolesunited]

Surprisingly, the person who said this was a woman who described herself as a Christian Democrat. She quoted a passage from the Bible — “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart: I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5 — as support for her assertion.

So, what do you think of her statement? I contraception the next target if they manage to outlaw abortion? Why our some people so hung up on controlling another person's fertility?

[seabeyond]

1. yes yes yes..............all in religion

and the nation live my belief in religion

[yardwork]

2. If contraception is the same as abortion

then all the thousands of unfertilized eggs in a woman's uterus are fair game for the right-wingers to control.

[asthmaticeog]

4. Not to mention the untold millions of sperm.

Imagine: federal punishment for an adolescent boy's nocturnal emission.

[yardwork]

9. Has Homeland Security thought of that yet?

[asthmaticeog]

18. I'll bet the Ashcroft DOJ thought of it,

but didn't act on it. After all, what DA would want to have to subpoena a 14 year old boy's loved-on gym sock? Even extremist fundamentalism has its limits. For that reason alone, I suspect the sin of Onan will probably remain legal.

[hector459]

143. You have to have something to abort to have an abortion.

If you use a contraception you have nothing to abort.

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. She's incorrect, and here's why they are not the same.

Contraception a.) prevents fertilization from taking place (condoms, e.g.) or b.) prevents the fertilized egg from implanting itself in the uterus. Abortion, in contrast, physically causes the implanted, fertilized embryo to become detached from the uterus.

[ktowntennesseedem]

101. But pro-lifers believe life begins at conception,

not at implatation.

[GiovanniC]

155. Life Actually Begins At the Time of a Lustful Thought

That's why condoms are bad too.

[JanMichael]

5. Fertility is such a Pagan issue

You would think Real Christians would be more concerned with smiting the little evildoers before they even get a chance to think about undergoing mitosis.

I submit I Samuel 15:3 as evidence:

"Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

There are LOTS more fun and exciting verses (especially from the OT) about killing women under the direct orders of God.

Stephanie

[Ezlivin]

45. Who needs Silence of the Lambs when you have the Bible?

When I was a fundamentalist, I would often tell people my favorite Bible verse was Judges 19:29. I did this to see if anyone ever looked it up.

Judges 19:29 reads "When he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, limb by limb, into twelve pieces, and sent her throughout all the borders of Israel."

[muffin_man]

52. swbts.com....

Thought I was gong to a Hannibal site when I saw the address pop up!


"Sweet bits" or was it sweet breads?

[cali]

6. A surprising number of anti-choice activists

take this position. Good. They look like the crackpot zealots they are. The vast majority of Americans completely reject this viewpoint. I wish there was some way to let the majority know how completely nuts these guys are. They don't want to simply overturn Roe and turn abortion back to the states. They want a total ban on abortion based on their belief that life begins at conception.

[yardwork]

16. It was only a few years before Roe v Wade that contraception was illegal

The landmark case making it unconstitutional to ban contraceptives was decided in the early 1960s. Until then, CT and other states had laws on the books making it illegal to sell contraception.

The right-wing absolutely wants to roll this back. The Pill was a huge step forward in women's rights. Allowing women control over their own fertility created uppity women! Women who wanted college educations and (gasp) jobs!

At this rate women will demand the right to vote next!

[Mend]

7. IUD's are....so what?

the fertilized egg, all of about 8 cells, can't implant in the uterus.

[Ilsa]

15. I beleive there are also indications that

conception doesn't even occur because of the IUD hormones. At least, that is what i read a few years ago. Still, some think that IUD are always abortifacients.

[gollygee]

32. That isn't the primary method of contraception with an IUD

Their primary method is to make the uterus unfriendly toward contraception - they keep the egg and sperm from meeting. Keeping a fertilized egg from implanting *might be* a secondary method, but that hasn't been proven and can't since fertilized eggs naturally don't implant very frequently - ie if someone has an IUD and a fertilized egg doesn't implant it's impossible to know if it's because of the IUD or if it would have happened anyway.

IUDs should remain legal regardless.

[LisaLL]

147. correct about mechanism

"Their primary method is to make the uterus unfriendly toward contraception - they keep the egg and sperm from meeting. Keeping a fertilized egg from implanting *might be* a secondary method"


Thanks, gollygee. Primary method is to prevent fertilization.
No matter what the data shows, some people will continue to falsely
say that the primary mech of IUDs is to prevent implantation.

Paraphrased and quoted:
IUDs work primarily by preventing sperm from fertilizing ova. The copper IUD increases uterine and tubal fluids containing copper, ions, macrophages etc that impair sperm function and prevent fertilization. The progestin IUD has many mechanisms including thickening of the cervical mucus, inhibiting sperm capacitation, suppressing the endometrium, etc.

Two areas of evidence support that IUDs work earlier than originally thought. One is by the use of sensitive pregnancy tests which do not reveal chemical pregnancies occurring. Also, there have been studies in women having their tubes tied mid-cycle. At the time of surgery, the fallopian tubes were flushed and the fluid examined under a microscope.In women not using contraception--they found fertilized eggs in about half. In women using IUDs no fertilized, normally dividing eggs were recovered.

(Source: Contraceptive Tchnology 18th revised edition. Chapter 21 by D Grimes)

[notadmblnd]

8. What about all the fetuses that spontaneously abort?

does that mean that god knew them and didn't like them?

[CottonBear]

10. Good point.

I wonder what her response would have been if that question had been asked of her? All of these "small government" arguments come off the track when the wingnuts start talking about controlling my bodily functions.

[asthmaticeog]

17. The impilcations of THAT are most disturbing.

This matter was discussed at some length last week because of some misguided legislation that was introduced and subsequently withdrawn, but can you imagine if you (or your partner if you're a man) suffered a miscarriage and had to endure a police investigation of it?

edit: spelling

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Spontaneous abortions occur because embryos are defective --

it's sort of built-in quality control. Since it occurs so often (usually well before a woman suspects she has conceived), and completely "naturally," it seems to me that the religious view would be that God not only accepts this but set it up this way. But I'm not speaking on behalf of God or any particular religion, either. I don't think God "doesn't like" defective embryos but rather knows they don't "work" and are better aborted very early than later, when a "miscarriage" would cause the woman physical and emotional pain.

[notadmblnd]

35. I know.. it was just my smart assed response to

a bible quote that was used to justify a persons view on a womans right to choose.

[Solly Mack]

11. they already target contraception

it's not just abortion they target and it never has been

it's total control they seek...to include contraceptives and the sex life of women.(and not just the sex life) All are extensions of the other.

they want to play "gotcha"...and pontificate from the pulpit on the evils of "unwed" motherhood and "low" women having sex outside of marriage. Which, of course, they already do.

it's the same old same old.

[meow2u3]

20. They never talk about controlling men's sexuality

I wouldn't mind if they talked about the evils of unwed fatherhood and "low" men who have sex outside of marriage, too. After all, it does take two to make a baby. So why do only the women get punished, while the men get off scot-free when they do the same things themselves?

[Solly Mack]

29. Good question

I only have one answer.

(sexism)

I'm 40 and have wondered the same thing for most of those years.

Being female, I have a vested interest in the answer.

[Ezlivin]

49. Easy. When you create the religion, you set the rules

When the first Middle Eastern man sat down and scribed the rules, he made damn sure that all the women were put in their place. The writers of the Bible just enhanced and enlarged man's place in "God's" kingdom, naturally at the expense of the "weaker vessel".

When I was going through seminary, I knew several very bright women who had no futures. Sure, they had 4.0+ GPAs, were smarter, better reasoned, more logical and basically superior to the men in their classes, but since they were the wrong gender, God would never bless them with any leadership position.

And like many abused women, these women seemed to be oblivious to their treatment. It was God's will and they willingly subjected themselves to it.

[dansolo]

70. Why isn't impotence considered god's will?

Why don't these religious moralists object to Viagra on the grounds that if God chose to make a man impotent, then who are we to go against that?

[jarab]

12. And other effective forms:

Celebacy, depression, box cutters.

...O...

[LWolf]

13. Sometimes.

When contraception prevents a fertilized egg from implanting, those that believe a fertilized egg = pregnancy or that a fertilized egg = a person could view it as abortion; aborting a fertlized egg instead of allowing it to implant.

I suppose, in a bizarre way, some who think we are still supposed to be going forth to "multiply," all 6 billion + of us, could extend prevention of conception to prevention of life to be born. :eyes:

If god really knew us all before we had a body, wouldn't any body suffice? If one conception, implantation, or birth didn't happen, wouldn't the next do? It's kind of an amusing picture, anyway. All of those spirits waiting in line to swoop down and inhabit the new bodies.

Is there some passage in the bible that I missed, where god said he wanted us to obliterate life on earth by overpopulating, polluting, and destroying resources until the planet couldn't sustain life?

I'm sure that, if the war against abortion were to be concluded sucessfully, birth control would be the next target.

[Career Prole]

14. When I was a practicing Catholic abortion was just one form of

contraception, and all were forbidden.
Only the rhythm method had the "seal of approval"...of course, that may have changed since then.

[kiraboo]

19. When you base your argument on a passage from the Bible

then, clearly, you have no real argument.

[Divernan]

21. Old Monty Python skit song: Every sperm is sacred!

Sarcasm off.

[WoodrowFan]

42. every sperm is sacred

every sperm is great, when a sperm is wasted, God is quite irate!

[Dogmudgeon]

22. Instant Aborto-freak mouth-closer

I tell them that I'll gladly become a RTLer as soon as the good Christian community supports legislation to grant every woman $25,000 per year and full health benefits from first conception until their last child turns 18. This would be augmented by $10,000 per year per additional child. Only a means test, starting at an income of $75,000 per year, would reduce this payment.

They sputter. They spew. They start bitching about "Socialism" and "subsidizing Welfare mothers to become breeders" and similar pieces of false witness.

At some point, they proclaim that women ought to "keep their legs together". By this time, all talk of Sweet Baby Jeebus has stopped.

They don't care at all about the "unborn children". All they care about is their kinky sex-dominated political agenda.

--p!

[GOPBasher]

23. Okay I'll discuss.

That's total bullshit. That's like saying masterbation is abortion.

[DemBones DemBones]

24. Contraception is prevention of conception.

When there is conception, there is either a birth in the future or an abortion, either spontaneous (aka "miscarriage") or induced, at some point.

IUDs and day-after pills don't prevent conception, they prevent implantation, thus causing a very early abortion. That's why pro-lifers object to them. They aren't contraceptives, they're contra-birth methods, which allows them to be called "birth control."

(See the distinction between "contraception" and "birth control"? Contraceptives must prevent conception itself.)

There are claims that birth control pills sometimes act in the same way, so some pro-lifers object to them.

Some pro-lifers object to contraception as well as to abortion but they're wrong to say "contraception is abortion."

I'm pro-life (opposed to abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty, and war) but not anti-contraception and I hate language that is imprecise. People need to use words properly, knowing their definitions, or they can't communicate.

[noamnety]

48. You're wrong on the IUD's

"The main way an IUD works is to stop sperm reaching an egg."

http://www.surgerydoor.co.uk/level2/contraception_iud.shtml#2

The anti-choice brigade refuses to acknowledge this, because it doesn't fit their agenda.

[Mandate My Ass]

58. she's wrong about EC too

EC cannot terminate or otherwise affect an established pregnancy, i.e. one in which the fertilized egg has implanted itself on the uterine wall.

Fertilization does not equal pregnancy. Implantation is the second necessary component to establish pregnancy. It has ever been so but the anti-choicers want to pretend just fertilization is all you need to have a pregnancy.

NOT!

[noamnety]

82. I learned something there

I thought EC just prevented implantation - but on a government website, I found this:

"Emergency contraceptive drugs appear to work primarily by preventing or delaying egg release (ovulation) from the ovaries. They may also slow egg or sperm transport in the fallopian tubes, and they may make the uterine lining less hospitable for implantation of a pregnancy."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007014.htm

Also, they pointed out something which I had forgotten - that an IUD put in within 5 days after unprotected sex also works as EC.

[Mandate My Ass]

108. Yes, primarily it works by delaying egg release until the sperm

has died and the other methods you mentioned. It is believed that if fertilization occurs, EC might inhibit implantation.

Either way, it's still contraception, since conception occurs when the fertilized egg implants itself on the uterine wall, and only then.

[Randers]

66. "The main way an IUD works..."

I'm not anti-choice - but I don't believe this is true.

There is nothing about an IUD which would stop sperm from reaching an egg.

I'm not even convinced that a fertilized egg does not implant and then get booted out. With an IUD - I often experienced pregnancy side-effects about the time I would have been pregnant - but would stop having them before a pregnancy test would be able to confirm it.


I believe in choice as far as birth control and abortion goes - I also think that doctors and pro-choice people should be honest about the choices they are making and advocating.

[gollygee]

67. You are just plain wrong

I discussed this with my GYN/OB before I got mine - she showed me articles about how IUDs work and studies that have been done about it. They make the womb hostile toward sperm - they make fertilization unlikely. It is possible that preventing implantation is a secondary way they work, but that's impossible to tell because fertilized eggs often don't implant regardless of birth control or lack of it.

[Randers]

69. A lot of medical people say something like:

"The exact mechanism by which it prevents pregnancy is not known."

http://www.medicalonline.com.au/wwwroot/medical/contraception/iud.htm

And I think it is BS.

You can think what you want. But if use an IUD and have the symptoms of pregnancy - you might want to think about it.

[gollygee]

71. It's called PMS

PMS and early pregnancy feel the same in my experience.

[Randers]

78. No - I've had PMS and I've been pregnant

and I know the difference.

Also - I stopped having the pregnancy symptoms once I got rid of the IUD and my husband got a vasectomy.

[gollygee]

83. An IUD makes your PMS worse

so it might feel different than your PMS before and after the IUD.

[noamnety]

86. not just worse, but different

I have completely different symptoms with and without it.

edit to clarify - PMS with an IUD is different than PMS without an IUD, they will feel different, just because there is something physically implanted in you, and because it affects your chemicals/hormones.

[gollygee]

91. It could still be PMS

I've used many different kinds of birth control pills, and an IUD, and my PMS symptoms were different with each birth control option I tried.

[noamnety]

95. oh, absolutely

I meant with an IUD - even on the months there was no chance I was pregnant, because the husband was out of town - my PMS symptoms were completely different than without it.

So PMS with an IUD can feel completely different, and that's fairly normal, and to make a jump from that to "this feels different, therefore I must be pregnant" is illogical.

[Randers]

98. The jump was "this feels like pregnancy" so maybe it is. n/t

[gollygee]

100. Any hormonal change can feel like pregnancy

that doesn't mean every time you have a hormonal change you're pregnant.

It's fine to be illogical and ignore science personally, but it's wrong to mislead other people and pass out incorrect ideas as if they are fact or even have any scientific basis at all.

[Randers]

110. "If you're extremely tuned in to your body's rhythms..."

"If you're extremely tuned in to your body's rhythms, you may begin to suspect you're pregnant soon after conception. But most women won't experience any pregnancy symptoms until the fertilized egg attaches itself to the uterine wall several days after conception. Others may feel no different for weeks and begin to wonder only when they miss a period."

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/general/7063.html



I think I am one of those who are more "tuned in" than most people. I think it is wrong to assume that I'm being illogical and "ignoring science" and that I am misleading people when I just happen to experience and notice bodily effects easier than others.

I'm not making this up and I don't have an agenda other than I would like for people to consider this. And I don't like being dismissed as if I'm some kind of a nut, either.

:crazy:

[gollygee]

113. The way the IUD works is a medical fact

and is unrelated to how in tune with your body's rhythms you are. Nor do you have any way of knowing specifically what hormonal changes you're feeling. I don't doubt you feel something different with the IUD than without it, but that could be many things. Scientific evidence says that the IUD's method of operation is not stopping a fertilized egg from implantating.

You are denying scientific evidence in favor of what you feel. That isn't logical.

[Randers]

115. I think you have your facts wrong

They are not as sure as you think (I think they just say that they prevent fertilization because that is what women want to hear):

"Another type contains copper and can remain in place for 10 years. The latter device affects the lining of the uterus (endometrium), but the exact mechanism is not known."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrauterine_device

Even Planned Parenthood says:

HOW IUDs WORK
IUDs usually work by preventing fertilization of an egg. They seem to do it by affecting the way the sperm or eggs move. They can also affect the lining of the uterus in ways that prevent implantation.

http://www.ppgi.org/view_health_svcs.asp?page_id=birth_control#iud


Many sources said that what an IUD does is stop implantation - not necessarily fertilization (and not just right wing sources) - so it is perfectly possible to experience pregnancy symptoms after conception and before implantation as the article about pregnancy symptoms mentioned.

And also - it just so happened that I only had the symptoms when I "could" have been pregnant. (I can have scientific evidence of my own. :) )It doesn't seem all that easy to have a study when a lot of women wouldn't necessarily feel symptoms then even if they could. Heck - some women don't know they are pregnant until their baby is being born! - it's rare but it happens. That they couldn't find an egg (a fertilized one before it was discarded) doesn't really impress me as scientific evidence.

[gollygee]

118. The mechanism is not known

but when I got mine two years ago my OB/GYN showed me some articles about a study that showed that women who were tested were not shown to shed fertlized eggs at a greater rate than the control group.

Most information online is from anti-abortion groups and is therefore suspect. They take out-of-date information, from before this more recent study, and present it as though it is still current information.

My OB/GYN is opposed to abortion due to religious reasons and that is why she told me about the studies - before those studies she referred people to another OB/GYN in her practice to get IUDs but changed her mind after this more recent study showed that the IUD does not work by preventing implantation.

No one knows just how it works, but evidence shows that it isn't by preventing implantation of fertilized eggs.

[Randers]

121. I also saw several sites

that said IUDs could be inserted as emergency contraception 7 days after intercourse.

That would definitely be a matter of stopping implantation but not fertilization.


"I" have not seen anything that disputes my theory. I have not seen anything that says absolutely that eggs are not fertilized.

[gollygee]

123. Fertilization doesn't take place until a few days after intercourse

so I suppose as long as it was inserted before fertilization took place that would be true.

All women occasionally shed fertilized eggs, regardless of birth control method or lack thereof. It is impossible to say, therefore, that any birth control method has never caused it. Women with IUDs do not shed fertilized eggs at a greater rate than women who use no birth control at all.

[noamnety]

126. Your planned parenthood link is exactly what we've been saying

It "usually works by preventing fertilization of an egg." This is what we've been trying to tell you.

That's exactly what you said it couldn't do, hopefully now that you've read that link you can understand you were mistaken, that is the primary way that it works, preventing fertilization.

If that fails, yes, it prevents implantation, but as my lower link shows (the one to the doctor spock site), you are more likely to have an unimplanted fertilized egg without birth control than you are with an IUD.

[Randers]

128. I'm saying that all of these sites

are being wishy-washy and vague.

[noamnety]

129. I'll give you credit where it's due

You weren't wishy washy at all about claiming there's nothing in an IUD that prevents fertilization.

You were wrong, but not wishy washy. I'm guessing you don't much like nuance?

[Randers]

130. So you see this as an absolute?

Medical experts believe that ParaGard® works primarily by interfering with the sperm’s ability to swim and fertilize an egg. ParaGard® may also have other actions that combine to prevent pregnancy.


Until I actually see evidence as opposed to claims - I have no reason to believe that an IUD would stop a sperm from fertilizing an egg. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

[gollygee]

131. I'm sure what you believe with no medical knowledge is better than

what *medical experts* believe. Based on studies. Scientific studies.

It is clear that you don't want to believe what is perfectly obvious, and that's fine. The important thing to me is that women considering an IUD who might be reading have the correct information in this thread. I'd hate for anyone to be misled because of your vague and wishy-washy "feelings" about what an IUD does.

[Randers]

133. here's a study for you

"The analysis of the evidence strongly suggests that the contraceptive effectiveness of intrauterine contraceptive devices is achieved by both a prefertilization spermicidal action and a postfertilization inhibition of uterine implantation. Patient informed consent for intrauterine contraceptive device insertion should include a discussion of these mechanisms of actions so as to avoid their use in patients with moral objections to postfertilization contraception."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9077596


I also found the abstract for one which supposedly says exactly what the different rates are for the different types (yours might be more effective than mine was) but you have to pay $30. to see the results. ->

"There are many potential mechanisms of action for the intrauterine device (IUD), which vary by type of IUD (inert, copper, or hormonal). This paper reviews the evidence for each potential mechanism of action. On the basis of available data for fertilization rates and clinical pregnancy rates, the relative contribution of mechanisms acting before or after fertilization were quantitatively estimated. These estimates indicate that, although prefertilization effects are more prominent for the copper IUD, both prefertilization and postfertilization mechanisms of action contribute significantly to the effectiveness of all types of intrauterine devices."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12501086&dopt=Abstract

[gollygee]

135. 1997

That's the date of that. That information is out of date. We've already discussed that the medical community *used to believe* that IUDs caused fertilized eggs to be expelled rather than implanting. They have learned otherwise pretty recently - I had my IUD inserted in May 2002 and it was a pretty new study at that point, according to my OB/GYN.

[Randers]

141. The other study I linked to was a 2002 study.

(I should have said "studies").

[gollygee]

148. When I do an internet search of the study's author's names

I get a bunch of sites about "Natural Family Planning" and the Catholic church.

I see they both spoke here: http://www.marquette.edu/nursing/nfp/biosketch.html

I'll put my trust in the other studies. You are free to believe whatever you want.

Edited to add this - I like this even better from them.

From: https://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/guest/cgi-bin/booksea.cgi?ISBN=0874620112

Arguments Against Contraception--Do They 227(4)
Make Sense to the General Public?
Importance of ethics, religion and
``natural morality'' in choice of family
planning methods
Rafael Mikolajczyk
Joseph Stanford

[Randers]

157. The similar problem that I had

was seeing studies support the notion that IUDs stop fertilization show up on sites of companies selling them.

I can't assume sites claiming that IUDs prevent fertilization are completely honest either - if it is the only condition under which most people would use them.

[Randers]

158. self-deleted

found more of a synopsis and it was irrelevent

[noamnety]

132. Yes, I see it as an absolute

There is nothing wishy washy about the word primary.

There are multiple ways an IUD works, the MAIN one (primary) is preventing fertilization.

That sounds clear cut to me.

Also, if one slips through, an IUD fortunately will prevent implantation, and they are not 100% sure yet why it prevents it, but they know it does. And the instances where it prevents implantation are less than the incidents of unimplanted eggs if you do not use it. So if the loss of an implanted egg is a moral issue with you for some reason, then this should be reassuring.

[LisaLL]

153. studies on tubal fluid

There have been studies where women having their tubes tied near ovulation-at the time of surgery--will have their tubes flushed with fluid and the fluid examined for fertilized eggs. In women using IUDs, no fertilized, normally dividing eggs were found. In women not using contracpetion, half had fertilized eggs found.

Extremely sensitive blood test studies show that there aren't chemical pregnancies occurring with IUDs in place.

Changes that occur in the uterus from IUDs impair sperm function.

Is it a possibility that sometimes an egg could fail to implant from having an IUD, from using breastfeeding for contraception, from pills or depo? Yes, there is a possibility. But evidence has shown the other mechanisms to be present and primary.

(Best resource on this is "Contraceptive Technology 18th Rev edition. Hatcher, et al)

[noamnety]

114. If you don't want to be dismissed as a nut

Then don't say things like this:

"There is nothing about an IUD which would stop sperm from reaching an egg." and then pass it off as scientific fact using an 8 year old link that doesn't even support your statement but rather says they don't know, and when challenged, claim that the medical studies are wrong, IUD's can't possibly stop sperm from reaching an egg because you personally "felt pregnant."

I felt pregnant after eating too much at Thanksgiving, but I didn't run around telling people that gravy fertilizes eggs.

[Randers]

117. I would be happy to see evidence

if you know of some. I didn't see any in my searches that support the idea that IUDs stop conception (esp. the "copper" kind - which is the kind that I'm talking about.) I saw lots of wishy-washy statements.

[noamnety]

120. Did you read the links?

I gave you direct quotes and a link to a government site.

If you choose not to believe it, there's not much more I can do.


Edit: Aw, come on. You couldn't find anything in a search?
http://www.surgerydoor.co.uk/level2/contraception_iud.shtml
http://www.fpa.org.uk/guide/contracep/iud.htm
http://www.nvsh.nl/Website_Engels/Texts/Sexual_Information/Safesex/Contraception_3.htm
http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT/cnoteShowLfts.asp?fname=00298&title=INTRAUTERINE+DEVICE+&cid=HTHLTH
http://www.medformation.com/ac/mm_qdis.nsf/qd/nd0298g.htm

This may help you get up to date:
"How does an IUD work?
This answer is not completely clear. Experts used to think that the IUD's contraceptive effects kicked in after fertilization took place, preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, but new evidence shows that it actually works as a pre-fertilization method of contraception. (In fact, researchers found that very early pregnancy loss was more frequent in women using no method of contraception compared with those who used an IUD.) "

http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,5543,00.html

So there you go. You are less likely to lose a fertilized egg if you use an IUD than if you use nothing.

All those poor people traumatized over the thought of lost fertilized eggs ought to be arguing for mandatory IUDs for everyone.

[Randers]

122. It still says "The _main_ way an IUD works"

(Not the only way. And it still isn't evidence. I would like to know what they are basing it on. If you posted that - I must have missed it.

[noamnety]

124. Check my edit.

Based on the new findings, it's in fact MORE likely that you had your scenarios flipflopped. What you interpreted as PMS when you weren't using an IUD was statistically MORE likely to be a pregancy that you lost. What you experienced with your IUD was more likely to be actual PMS, which perhaps you didn't recognize. :)

Statistically speaking. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Randers]

127. too bad they don't actually link

to the studies. In this day and age with the internet - there should be the possibility to see actual data linked - not just what someone is saying some vague study says.

[prolesunited]

137. Yes, I think we should all

just take some anonymous Internet poster's word for it rather that any interpretation of scientific data.

She has *felt* pregnant. Therefore, IUD use is a form of abortion. That about settles it for me. I think I'll bookmark this thread and use your beliefs and feelings in place of actual data in my next debate.

[Randers]

142. It appears that a person could find studies

that support either side.

Without the details of the studies being known (at least online - you have to pay up to see the details) there is no way to come to any conclusion about the validity of any of them - or to know their methodology or anything.

And I don't expect you to change your life based on what I say. Like I said at the beginning - I'm for choice, anyway. But if it is an issue for somebody - that they do not want to be conceiving/expelling/conceiving/expelling - they may want to do something else.

on edit - missed a word

[noamnety]

152. If it's an issue for somebody

that they do not want to be conceiving/expelling/conceiving/expelling, then they should go on birth control such as an IUD or the pill, to lower the chance of conceiving/expelling.

[LisaLL]

156. Research studies are not created equal

Studies are like paper money. They have different worth based on identifiable, objective characteristics. Just like any adult can tell that a $100 bill is worth more than a $1 bill. An adult can trick a child by trading two $1 bills for a $100 bill (telling them two is more than one) but that is dishonest. If the adult goes on to tell the child that there is no difference in the value of money and that you can make a bill be any amount that you want it to be--that adult is trying to trick a child for the long term.

Same is true for studies. There are excellent studies based on their design that are reproducible, have mechanisms that prevent manipulation by other variables or by bias. There are fair studies, there are poor studies. Scientists (and anyone who puts in the effort to learn how to tell the difference) can determine what credible evidence is and is not. In fact, many journals will rate the level of evidence. (And make sure you are using credible, medline accessible, perr-reviewed journals). You can't make a well-done study say whatever you want.

When people say that there is no difference in studies, you can make them say whatever you want--it's because they are trying to trick the public in the long term. Usually these groups (like the ones trying to claim that abortion causes breast cancer) ignore the excellent well done, best studies, while exaggerating the outdated or proven-to-be-wrong or poorly done studies. There is a method and I think we'd go a long way as a society to learn about this. It especially keeps us from getting tricked.

[Randers]

96. It could also be the start of a pregnancy....eom

[Randers]

87. There was a lot more blood loss

that's for sure. I was also anemic.

[noamnety]

92. that's a common side effect

so?

[noamnety]

77. Your source is 8 years old.

Welcome to 2005.

[Randers]

81. my main source

that I based my ideas on are my own experiences.

[gollygee]

84. Which is by definition biased

Good idea to base it on that rather than an unbiased source like science. /sarcasm

[Randers]

90. And I suppose

you aren't biased. Or that scientists are never biased.

[gollygee]

93. The scientific method is used to avoid bias

I got my information from the science articles my OB/GYN showed me. You're the one putting your bias over science.

[prolesunited]

105. I think I'm pregnant

therefore I am? :shrug:

You can't just *decide* you're pregnant based on how you feel. What sources do you have to back this up? If your feelings are your only evidence, you have made a very weak argument that can easily be disregarded.

Do you let your feelings and beliefs guide you in other areas as well, even if it flies in the face of statistics?

For example, I've never personally experienced sexism or racism, so they must no longer exist. Or, the few people on welfare I knew were lazy bums, so anyone who picks up a monthly check is lazy.

If you wouldn't make such assessments based on such flimsy evidence in these cases, why would you do so in the case of an IUD.

[noamnety]

89. Faith-based medicine

"This is how it works despite all scientific evidence to the contrary, because I just feel this is the truth."

How are you with evolution?

[Randers]

94. I'm fine with evolution.

And I'm not religious either.

I happen to believe women should pay attention to their own bodies and consider their own symptoms. Apparently you don't.

[noamnety]

97. Another illogical conclusion

Of course you should pay attention to symptoms and get them checked out. I never said don't pay attention to side effects.

I said don't jump to false conclusions about what's causing the side effects, and based on your feelings go around preaching something that scientifically is just not true.

[noamnety]

75. It's a medical fact

This is not a faith-based debate, it's medical science. It's not for you to "believe" or "not believe".

The IUD prevents fertilization of the egg by producing a sterile inflammatory response that kills sperm. Some IUDs release progesterone, which prevents fertilization by affecting how the sperm or egg move. The hormone also makes the mucus in the cervix thick and sticky, so sperm can't get through to the uterus. Progesterone IUDs may also prevent implantation. The copper in the most commonly used IUD, the Copper T 380-A, seems to increase the number of white blood cells in the uterus and cause other changes that kill sperm.

You may have had side effects related to how the IUD works (the inflammation? the white blood cells? PMS?), but that's a seperate issue.

[ashiebr]

25. As Monty Python put it:

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

[Feathered Fish]

26. Yeah, right

Some pharmacists already refuse to fill prescriptions for contraceptives because of this 'moral' reason. Give me a fucking break. How in the hell can an unfertilized egg become the business of the fundies? How? The passage she quoted is not good enough - it seems to imply the immaculate conception, which is not the case. But, alas, I'm preaching to the converted here. Even if you are an anti-choice dem, one can't possibly believe that contraception is abortion.

[NoStinkinBadges]

27. What a bunch of BS.

Anyone that is rational and wants to make abortion rare should be an advocate of contraception.

The Catholic Church and their advocating abstinence as the only acceptable form of contraception only adds to the problem.

[dolo amber]

28. That was a convenient bit of

propaganda back when humans' very *survival* (by way of building armies) depended on everyone procreating their little heads off...and as abortion/contraception has been around to some degree forever, it was helpful to inject some Hallmark-ish sentiment and fear of retribution into the equation. Clearly, it worked...so I'm assuming it will continue to be used. Especially if we as a species continue to devolve at the breakneck speed we're doing it now. :eyes:

[demnan]

31. Here's another point

How about our abysmally low infant mortality rate? The same kooks who are so keen on keeping women from having abortions or using contraception are the same ones who would gut Medicaid, and oppose univeral health care, therefore they are more responsible for killing children than any responsible couple who uses whatever form of birth control.

[moobu2]

34. Exactly!

The concept of "sactaty of life" is a sham for these people. It's all about controling a womans body.

Concerning the thread topic,
If you accept someone's position on an issue because they used a passage in the Bible as an argument then where would it end? stoning women for adultery? the death penalty for common crimes and "sins"? starting Bible study in public school? passing laws in general to conform to the Bible or someone's interpretation of it?...the consequences are mind boggling.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Exactly...US is 24th in infant mortality...bad for a wealthy developed

nation.

[gollygee]

33. Yes the religious right will try to outlaw contraception

The belief is that people shouldn't have sex unless they want a baby. It's about punishing women for feeling sexual. How dare we!

[Kber]

57. Well, since dildo's etc are also illegal in some states

I'd have to agreee with you. Why not just outlaw female orgasms?

[sarcasmo]

104. Do you have a list of the states, my wife has two of them, LMFAO.

[ehrnst]

36. The term abortion is never used in the Bible, although it existed

Even though there are some very, very specific guidelines on what to eat, what not to wear, etc.

I find it curious that all those who throw poetical Bible verses up to support of forced childbirth ignore the passage where God orders the murder of pregnant women and children, and clearly doesn't regard them above any other life....

“Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up” (Hosea 13:16).

[spunky]

37. The Vatican's been doing it for ages

The Vatican would love it. Strict Catholics are already unable to use contraceptives. My mother couldn't go to her normal, Catholic hospital to have me(cesarian) because the Catholic hospital wouldn't tie her tubes. . .

Speaking of Monty Python: "Couldn't Mummy have worn some sort of pessary?" "Not if we're going to remain members of the fastest growing religion in the world, my boy."

Maybe she just wants more cannon fodder for the army of the future.

[minerva50]

38. Pregnancy is a form of abortion

since it prevents subsequently fertilized eggs from implanting. So don't have sex when you're pregnant!

[patcox2]

39. Nothing to discuss, the pill is an abortifacient.

The common birth control pill does not prevent conception, it prevents implantation in the uterine wall. Nothing to discuss. Its a non-issue. If you want to make it an issue, it just argues in favor of the pro-choice side and makes the anti-abortion position untenable, because if you do define life as beginning at "conception," you would have to ban the pill, too, and that is something a strong majority would oppose.

[Mandate My Ass]

53. No it's not!

Get your facts straight. The pill prevents ovulation. Even if an egg is released and it prevents implantation, it is still birth control and not an abortifacient.

For pregnancy to occur, two things must happen, fertilization and implantation. You are attempting to rewrite the medical and science books with your "conception = pregnancy" fallacy. Oh, and s strong majority of even Roman Catholics support the birth control pill.

There is plenty to discuss when misinformation is passed off as the bottom line.

[patcox2]

60. Okay, it isn't Always, but it still is, and can be, anytime.

Here is the description from one health info website:

"Most birth control pills contain the combination of the hormones estrogen and progesterone to prevent ovulation (the release of an egg during the monthly cycle). If a woman doesn't ovulate she cannot get pregnant because there is no egg to be fertilized.

One type of birth control pill, known as the Minipill, contains only the hormone progesterone. Although progesterone alone may prevent ovulation, this may not occur reliably every month. The Minipill also works by thickening the mucous around the cervix, which prevents the sperm from entering the uterus. It also affects the lining of the uterus so if the egg is fertilized it cannot attach to the wall of the uterus."

I don't see the big deal in any event. I think that if the right wingers and anti-choice nutballs want to go after the pill because it technically, in some cases, causes abortions, they will shoot themselves in the foot. Its called giving them enough rope. I don't think the majority in this country would ever go along with banning the pill. And I think the very fact that the pill sometimes or even, in the case of the minipill, frequently allows fertilization and just prevents implantation, I think this shows how silly the idea that "life begins at conception" really is.

[tjwash]

40. She is misreading the scripture. Tell her that...

...most Fundamentalists use the Jeremiah argument, that God "knew" people in the womb, and, therefore, it must mean that God considers us fully human at conception. So what does it mean when God says he knew us before we were even conceived? Does it mean we are fully human even before the egg and the sperm come together? Before the man and woman even have intercourse? Of course not. Jeremiah 1:4-10, is a description of a pre-ordained prophet of God describing his life in the womb, not God's orders for use of contraception.

[ArkDem]

41. But what about the virgin birth?

[JanMichael]

46. Which one?

Mithra?

[ArkDem]

51. No one knows if the rock was virgin or not.

[cags]

43. So whats her point with that verse

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" So what, It was the soul that God knew, not the form.

I think contraception is one of thier targets now

[coloradodem2005]

47. Huge difference.

Abortion occurs when the process has been set in motion. Contraception is preventing even that from starting. Furthermore, if contraception was a form of abortion, abstinence is also a form of abortion. That is the dumbest logic I have heard. I still am trying to figure out how that bible verse supports her claim.

[txaslftist]

50. Dumb Dumb Dumb.....

God also said that only he knows the hour of your death... That by wishing it so, you cannot change a hair on your head from black to white.

On this theory, since all things are preordained, then anything we do to interfere with this preordination is a sin. Wearing a seatbelt, then, interferes with God's plan to kill us in a car wreck. Eating healthy interferes with God's plan to administer us a fatal heart attack.

What a crock of sh*t.

[patcox2]

62. No, everything we do in fact brings about what is preordained.

We cannottake actions which thwart what is preordained, by definition. Our actions are simply part of what is ordained.

My father, when I was in High School, was against me taking up scuba diving; he said that if God wanted me to breathe underwater he'd have given me gills. I said that if god didn't want me underwater, he wouldn't have given me scuba equipment.

I don't believe in predestination, but your logic does nothing ot refute it.

There is a french proverb: "You will meet your destiny on the road you took to avoid it." Think about it.

[txaslftist]

64. I'm not arguing against predestination...just stupidity.

If you take the position that god preordained every birth, and therefore contraception thwarts god's will, that's just dumb. On account of the fact that your saying you cannot interfere in god's will by using a condom, or for that matter, pulling out at the last second and blowing on her stomach. (FYI.. NOT a recommended form of birth control).

Contraception is just common sense. Any attempts to regulate it are just ... dumb.

[patcox2]

112. I agree, opposing contraception is stupid, thats why we should let them.

I have no problem with right wingers exaggerating the abortifacient effects of birth control pills. Go ahead, go around trying to ban the pill, bring it on, because that is a battle we would win, and it also destroys their credibility when they are singing their little "every sperm is sacred" song.

And I feel that if I wear a condom, its all part of god's plan that I wear that condom, anyway.

[MsTryska]

54. Hmm....first abortion, then birth control, then masturbation, then

nocturnal emmissions, then menstrual cycles......


it's a slippery slope i tell you.

[BiggJawn]

55. Then so's male masturbation...

All those sweet little babies...Doomed to spend eternity in a wad of kleenex!

and yes, they ARE "hung up" on other's sex practices, and yes, after they overturn Roe v. Wade, they WILL come after contraception.

Have you read some of the "rehabilitation" of Margaret Sanger? She was in favour of Birth Control because she was a Eugenicist...

You tear down a wall one chip at a time...

[noamnety]

56. AFTER they overturn Roe vs. Wade?

They're going after it now, the media is silent.

[BiggJawn]

59. Yeah, it's a multi-pronged attack...

You're right. just forgot...Pharmacists refusing to fill scripts, drug store chains refusing to carry emergency contraception...

Oh, the media's not "silent", they're just covering the more IMPORTANT stuff, like stupid snowboarders who think they're Immortal getting buried, and what colour thongs Jenna and Babs are gonna be wearing at the ball...

[noamnety]

61. That's just the beginning

Legislation to ensure that doctors, insurance companies, and pharmacists are legally allowed to withhold birth control (not just emergency, but all birth control), based on their personal religious views, is moving at the state level.

Attacks on insurance coverage of birth control at the federal level

The new "faith-based" health insurance option for federal employees

False information in sex ed classes

FDA's Advisory Committee for Reproductive Health Drugs being filled with appointees who oppose all birth control, and refused to prescribe it in their own private practices

Presidential Advisory Commission on HIV/AIDS appointees who oppose condoms

[LeftyMom]

63. If God wants me knocked up

He can make my birth control fail.

Besides, she's arguing for predestination (if God plans a child'd destiny before it's conception,) in which case she has no free will to decide to use BC or not and if you do that's what God planned for you. Apparently God likes abortions too, if that's her argument.

[DrGonzoLives]

65. The single most misquoted verse in the Bible

is the one you just put in your post. God was speaking DIRECTLY TO JEREMIAH, no about people in general, highlighting Jeremiah's important place in the world to spread his prophecy. It has NOTHING to do with anyone else, only Jeremiah. But it makes a nice sound bite, so the pro-lifers love using it.

[Greybnk48]

73. I was just going to say that Doc!

This quote has nothing to do with abortion--it is confirmation of Jeremiah as a prophet. The only place in the Bible that abortion seems to be mentioned is in Exodus Ch.21. Exodus 21 catalogs ancient Jewish law. If you look you will see that murder is punishable by death. On the other hand, causing a woman to have a miscarriage has a penalty of a fine to be paid to her husband.

The one and only mention of abortion in the Bible does NOT recognize a fetus as equivalent to a full human being, nor does it equate abortion with murder.

[DrGonzoLives]

68. Furthermore

a simple analysis of the word "contraception" will give you the answer, specifically the prefix. Contra = against, opposing. Contraceptives, by definition, stop conception before it starts. Such being the case, if life begins at conception, no conception, no life. Otherwise, they must make the argument that the eggs in a woman's ovaries are all lives, and thus should stop wasting them to menstruation - ditto for men and masturbation.

[Liberal Veteran]

72. It is the height of arrogance to think you can thwart God's will...

....through a pill.

Stupid, stupid, stupid woman. It must suck to believe that your god is so puny that a simple little pill could thwart him.

Look at Mary! She was abstinent which is supposed to be 100 percent effective birth control.

[gollygee]

76. LOL that's the best response I've heard yet

:D

[Randers]

74. This chart seems more balanced than other things I've seen...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_cont.htm

at least it gives both sides...

[pschoeb]

79. If the Christian god is omniscient, then he would have known all of us

from the very begining of time(or forever if there was no begining to time). So I'm not sure what that qoute really proves, other than Jeremiah thought god omniscient, even if your a Christian.

The question also occurs, does God "know" the 25%-33% of embryos that fail to implant on the womb and therefore are aborted by god(unless Christians don't believe god is the author of nature)

[seafey]

80. Then menstruation must be stopped too!

Every egg must be fertilized in case there's a prophet to the nations on the way... Every woman in pursuit of a box of tampons will be known as someone who couldn't or WOULDN'T get pregnant for clearly selfish reasons!

[Greybnk48]

85. I propose monthly religious ceremonies

for one's feminine hygiene products. Bury them in your backyard with little crosses over the burial spots (and DON'T let your dog out there!)

[Liberal Veteran]

88. And we should also make women sacrifice a dove to atone.

For their sin of not getting pregnant before they can be declared "clean" again and safe to be around.

[Nobody]

160. By having my period, we missed out on Hitler Redux

After all, no one said that these prophets to the nations would be good people.

[arwalden]

99. Oh, now that's just sad.

[ThorsHammer]

102. Pro-lifer here, I don't have a problem with contraception

In fact, I'd like to see it used more often, to prevent both abortions and unwanted children. The 'pro-birthers' (I think that's the right word, I'm referring to the far right, theocon, Rapture crowd) won't be happy unless there's a complete ban on abortion, no contraception, and everybody follows abstinence. Most moderate pro-lifers, like the ones you'll find here, probably would support contraception.

[sarcasmo]

103. Then is whacking off a form of abortion?

I realize it takes two sperm to make a baby, but what about the killing of one sperm when you whack off? If you let these right wing nut jobs take away abortion. Then they will take away your Playboy. Then they will take away your strip clubs. Then they will take away your DVD's they don't like. The next think you know we are living like the Taliban.

[Bat Boy]

134. "It takes two sperm to make a baby?"

I....I'm speechless...

[asthmaticeog]

136. Wow, and I'm carrying MILLIONS around in a very vulnerable place.

I hope none of 'em bump into each other. Ouch.

[Bat Boy]

139. Don't let 'em get together.

That's how immaculate conception happens, and frankly I'm not sure you're ready for that kind of responsibility.

[asthmaticeog]

140. But think of the shit I could get away with if I bore a god-child!

Gotta start wearin' tighter pants...

[HEyHEY]

146. You've never been laid have you?

;-)

[donheld]

106. If their God is as powerful as they say he is

No amount of Contraception could prevent god from getting his message through. Back in Jeremiah's time disease was no doubt the number 1 problem with childhood. Jeremiah and many other "prophets" made it through. This fight is only about control. And men just wait, if we let these people tell a lady what she can do with her body, they will then try to tell us what we can do with our bodies. Actually if you think about it that's what Gentile circumcision is about. Control

[Zenlitened]

107. Not having sex is a form of abortion.

Having a monthly period is a form of abortion.

Men wearing briefs is a form of abortion.

Yay! It's fun living in ExtremeLand! :crazy:

[Liberal Veteran]

109. I agree! If we don't all start f**king everything that moves, we risk...

...offending God and killing babies! We don't want that!

[DireStrike]

111. If you interpret it THAT way...

It's a serious argument against free will.

Or else, everyone should be CONSTANTLY FUCKING. Every sperm or egg wasted is a dead baby.

[cheezus]

116. any lustful thought that doesn't lead in childbirth is abortion

conception begins at desire

[SemperEadem]

119. In that passage

God was talking to someone who was already born.

God already knows when one is not going to be formed. Her point is non sequitur.

[EVDebs]

125. Sperm have rights !!!!!!!

Sperm have rights ??????????

The 'morning after pill' a.k.a. Plan B makes this whole abortion issue moot. Just as soon as women wake up to the power they have in and of themselves....rational, thinking, power.

[jesusq]

150. Every sperm is sacred

every sperm is great, if any sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate!
Monty Python, "The Meaning of Life." if you haven't seen it, rent it NOW!

[quaker bill]

138. In a sense it is.

However, it hardly matters.

What they seek to control is not fertility but fornication.

Contraception is seen as enabling fornication.

I suspect that otherwise they would be quite happy if liberals did not reproduce. They would just prefer that we not reproduce by not having sex as opposed to using contraception or abortion.

[OnionPatch]

144. I always interpreted this passage to be

in reference to reincarnation. He knew the soul before birth. So what does that have to do with birth control?

If God wants a soul to be born, there are plenty of wombs around that aren't using birth control.

[slutticus]

145. Contraception is a form of choice

[jesusq]

149. Masturbation is genocide!

Ridicule is the appropriate answer here. Every man's ejaculate contains millions of sperm and each one of these sperm is a potential life, therefore, when a man masturbates, he is committing genocide, mass murder, or at the very least, he might be flushing our next Einstein, Salk, Gandhi or Nelson Mandela down the drain, or in a sock, or against the wall of a peep-show booth. Create a faux "pro-sperm" group or a "save the sperm" PAC and get publicity. Trust me, as a former media whore, this will work. Start with FOX-spews. They are suckers for this kind of thing. Whatever you do, do not engage these folks in serious debate; rather, take their own weak arguments to the next (even more absurd) level and trust that the publics innate sense of humor will lead them to reject the silliness of the whole business. If abortion is murder and contraception is a form of abortion, then masturbation (by men, it is important to make men responsible) is genocide, mass murder, eugenics or worst.

[ecstatic]

151. I take that passage to mean

Life can neither be created nor destroyed. No human can set aside God's plan. If a person is meant to be, they will be, independent of whether an abortion is performed. In other words, the soul will just go somewhere else.

[Orsino]

154. They want to control passion...

...in all its forms, and ensure that the only ecstatic experience we ever have is between ten a.m. and 12 p.m. in a state-sanctioned church. If They ever discover a way to create good little consumers in the womb, They will outlaw sex completely.

[Generic Other]

159. Abstinence is a form of fetus murder! Selfish virgins!

In fact, unpregnant women have no valid reason for being.

Stupid sheep.