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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 02:32 PM
Original message
The Bush speech from last Tuesday on SS reform...is being....
....rebroadcast right now on CSPAN. The content of his first 10 minutes so far has been "oh, golly, gee-whiz, ah shucks" type rhetoric and soft core pandering to the audience in the auditorium. He claims that SS will soon (no date -- but major emphasis on the word soon by Bush) be bankrupt! Oh, not right away, so current recipients and people soon to go on SS are protected. But, the baby-boomer's, and Bush claims that to be his demographic group, coming on the system will burden the system to the point of complete collapse, if nothing is done soon (again, major emphasis on soon by Bush)but no specific time-frame. Then, the WMD, projections are that SS will run a deficit of $11 trillion Bush says and that's with a 'T' trillion, as far out as we can project, he claims, but no clarification of what such a deficit is based on. At this point, I shut the channel off and began this post....

Well, should * go unchallenged on this issue? Who on the democratic side is speaking out against this sham, made up crisis? Not Joe Lieberman, he wants the pResident to get his way, so old mumbling Joe is going over. Fight Bush with real facts. Fight with sound Social Security reform, but fight any effort at privatization where we know that privatization will be another republican franchise to steal from a sound, healthy government program.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tje BushCo are not satisfied with Billion$$...They want Trillion$$
To accomplish this...they use crisis and Fear....

The Nation will see the misery index go higher if this nutcase gets his way....

Go ask the Enron guys who put their faith/monies into the private system and what they got.... more like 1 cents on the dollar...

many are hopelessly broke and will losing their homes if not already.
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. I have TIAA-CREF
It lost thirty percent or so shortly after bush took over. It has not recovered. There is no dividend increase for this year either. Sure trust yourself to invest wisely. If TIAA-CREF did not show a return I know that I could not.

180
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. 21 facts C-span will forget because they prove Bush a liar
21 reasons/facts w/ links on how Bush;s Soc Sec Plan is based on lies

21 REASONS WHY PRESIDENT BUSH'S PLAN FOR SOCIAL SECURITY IS A BAD IDEA AND IN FACT IS MISLEADING :

(WAYS TO INNOCULATE YOURSELF AGAINST THE ONCOMING MEDIA BLITZ):

A story of how Social Security is not like a 'pig in a python' (but that's what Bush and company are telling you)We are being scammed to pay for the war on Iraq & associated deficits


You will notice that points have references; see those references at the end of these points. This is not intended to be an 'academic presentation'; thus, the URL's which you can check for yourself.



1. WHO WANTS THE CHANGE AND HOW WILL THEY 'FRAME' THE ISSUE? Wall Street wants privatization in order reap a windfall profit. Everyone else should be very suspicious. If the stock market goes down, your benefits go down.

This is what you will hear from Bush and company: "right now we are on an unsustainable course." They say, 'its unfixable as it is.' They will say: 'the problem will just grow and grow as more and more boomers come on board to obtain their Social Security benefits.' They will say: "the trust fund is empty.

Quite the contrary: Social Security funds are actually increasing and....and will actually expand for 10 more years because of the interest it receives from Treasury bonds. Could it be that Bush and company are worried because, "the government has already used the annual surpluses to finance its operating deficits." (Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005)

That's right: Bush and company have used the surplus which usually accumulates along with the principal money in order to do something about the deficit that they have created over the past 4 years.



2. EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE SURPRISED: WAS THIS 'TWEAKING' OF SOCIAL SECURITY MEANT TO TAKE PLACE PERIODICALLY? : YES "What people forget is that the baby boom is not like a pig in the python," said Kent Smetters, an associate professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and a former senior official in Mr. Bush's Treasury Department. "If you just balance it over the next 75 years, it just means we have to come back and do the same thing all over again about 15 years from now," Professor Smetters said. (Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005)



3. WHY ARE WE BEING TOLD WE NEED TO 'DO SOMETHING ABOUT SOCIAL SECURITY'? The nation's baby boomers start to retire at the end of this decade and relatedly the cost of retirement benefits is expected to rise much faster than payroll taxes from active workers. Obviously, payments become higher with each generation of retirees, even after accounting for inflation. By 2042, the trust fund will have used up its reserves and payroll taxes will cover only about 70 percent of the promised benefits.


4. WON'T WE HAVE TO PAY FOR CHANGING TO PRIVATE ACCOUNTS?? HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST US? : the Bush administration deems the current system, with its average monthly benefit of $955, as too generous (that's less than $12,000/ year). The Bush Administration wants to cut benefits by more than 40% to help pay the trillions of dollars that would be needed for the creation and maintenance of private accounts. http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41481

This doesn't make sense given that now Social Security is the most efficient government system ever instigated, utilizing only 1% of the overall funds to manage the monthly Social Security payments for millions of people. More than 99 percent of Social Security's revenues go toward benefits, and less than 1 percent for overhead. The Social Security System is legally separate from the rest of the budget. Bush wants to discontinue that. This will make it difficult it not impossible to track in terms of is the Social Security money really being used for other purposes like making war on Iraq.

Where's all that money right now? "The Social Security trust fund has accumulated more than $1.5 trillion in reserves, held in Treasury bonds." (Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005)



5. WHO IN BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION IS DRIVING THE MATTER? Karl Rove, Bush's right hand man: He is attempting to convince the public that Social Security is 'heading for an iceberg." )http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791950 )


4. WHY WOULD KARL ROVE WANT TO PRIVATIZE SOCIAL SECURITY? Rove sees it as : “one of the most important conservative undertakings of modern times,....“We need to establish in the public mind a key fiscal fact: right now we are on an unsustainable course,” the e-mail said. “That reality needs to be seared into the public consciousness; it is the precondition to authentic reform.....government and toward giving greater power and responsibility to individuals,” said Wehner, the director of White House Strategic Initiatives. " Who is this Wehner? : Peter Wehner, the deputy to White House political director Karl Rove. Thus, Rove is attempting to continue the line of 'getting government out of your lives' which is a recipe to allow corporations unbridled power and individuals no retirement through Social Security. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/679195


5. WHAT STRATEGIES ARE BEING UTILIZED IN ORDER TO CONVINCE THE PUBLIC OF THE NEED FOR PRIVATIZATION OF SOCIAL SECURITY?: "The administration has suggested that it would be justified in borrowing some $2 trillion to establish private accounts because doing so would head off $10 trillion in future
Social Security liabilities. It's bad enough that the $10 trillion is a highly inflated figure, intended to overstate a problem that is reasonably estimated at $3.7 trillion or
even considerably less. Worse are the true dimensions of the administration's proposed ploy, which were made painfully clear in a memo that was leaked to the press last week. Written in early January by Peter Wehner.".....(Rove's right hand person):
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0

6. WHAT WOULD ACTUALLY TAKE PLACE RE: THIS PRIVATIZATION EFFORTS PER BUSH/ ROVE / THE REPUBLICANS? : "Revamping the system to allow investment accounts would not shore up the future finances and would make the financial picture worse. The administration is considering borrowing $1 trillion to $2 trillion to continue paying benefits to current retirees while tax revenue is diverted into personal accounts, called transition costs, Wehner's e mail said (per this article, this e mail was verified by the White House). Separately, to address the future financial shortfall, the administration is looking at plans to cut future promised benefits, by 46 percent in some cases, with investments expected to make up the difference." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/679195


7. WHO ELSE UNDERLINES THAT THIS IS WHAT WOULD ACTUALLY OCCUR? : " The real impact of President Bush's Social Security privatization scheme: massive cuts in promised benefits. The White House is expected to propose a new system of calculating Social Security benefits called "price indexing." The technical change would mean "cutting promised benefits by nearly a third in the coming decades" – with even deeper cuts in the future. For example, if the "price indexing" change is made, "a retiree in 2075 would receive 54 percent of the benefits now promised." David C. John, a Social Security expert at the conservative Heritage Foundation called the proposal "very much like sticking your hand in a wasp nest.": American Progress Action Fund" <[email protected]


8. WHAT ARE SOME POINTS THAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT TO HEAR FROM BUSH AND THE REPUBLICANS? Talk about: PRICE INDEXING: The current method of calculating Social Security benefits is adjusted to reflect the standard of living when a person retires. That means when your benefits are calculated based on your average earnings, the salary you made 25 years ago is adjusted upwards to reflect the overall rise in wages (wage growth) since that time. The "price indexing" plan, expected to be proposed by Bush, would make that adjustment based on the rise of consumer prices – essentially the inflation rate. Since wages rise much faster than inflation, that means your newly adjusted salary will be lower. The end result is far lower benefits for every new generation of retirees. If this system had been in place since Social Security's inception, people today would be retiring with a benefit tied to the living standard of the 1930s, when 40 percent of households lacked indoor plumbing.: [email protected]


9. WHAT ELSE CAN WE EXPECT TO COME OUT WAY RE: THIS PUSH FOR PRIVATIZATION? : You will hear talk about how it will be cheaper in the long-run to privatize at least part of Social Security. Specifically, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan claims, "The cost is $10 trillion if we do nothing. So what you're talking about would be a significant savings over those costs." There are two problems with this argument. First, the $10 trillion figure grossly distorts the modest long-range deficit of the Social Security program by projecting that shortfall over eternity. (There is no shortfall at all until 2052. Projections beyond 2052, obviously, are extremely unreliable.) Second, and more fundamentally, "borrowing $2 trillion to fund individual accounts does nothing to reduce Social Security's long-term deficit." Under the Bush plan the long-term deficit is reduced through deep benefit cuts.:
mailto: [email protected]

10. WHAT ARE SOME OTHER MATTERS ASSOCIATED WITH RETIREMENT SAVINGS THAT WILL BE BOUGHT UP? The Thrift Savings Plan: what is it land what might be the downsides of such a model, which could be part of the Rovian onslaught?
the Thrift Savings Plan could serve as a possible model for personal investment accounts in Social Security.
Numerous readers said the two programs are unrelated and that the TSP, which relies on federal payroll systems for its basic operation, cannot be replicated on a scale as large as Social Security. Others said a column about the plan failed to stress that the TSP is a voluntary savings program that supplements Social Security, a tax-based program. Cavanaugh's paper (The paper, "Feasibility of Social Security Individual Accounts," was published by the AARP Public Policy Institute. AARP is opposing Bush's plan), for example, says that personal accounts in Social Security will cost more to manage than those in the TSP, in part because the TSP can rely on hundreds of federal agencies to administer payroll deductions and provide retirement planning and other services.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61607-2005Jan9.html?referrer=email

11. SO THE THRIFT SAVINGS PLAN APPEARS TO WORK FOR LARGER PERSONAL INVESTMENT ACCOUNTS, YES? The paper also points out that TSP operates on a progressive fee system (usually 60 cents per $1,000 account balance) so that holders of the higher account balances absorb part of the cost of maintaining smaller accounts. Such a fee system would not work in Social Security because too many accounts would be small, the paper contends. Social Security relies on the government to absorb inflation and market risks, while the TSP shifts those risks to individual investors, Cavanaugh writes. "Attempts to combine these two fundamentally different programs are like mating a bear with a bee -- somebody is going to get hurt," he concludes.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61607-20 ...


12. WHY DOES WALL STREET WANT THE CHANGE? In the background, beyond private accounts, are various proposals to cut guaranteed Social Security
benefits in the future.


13. BUT WE WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER DEPRESSION AS IN 1929: wrong: In 1973-74, the stock
market lost 48 percent of its value. The stock market is a very dangerous place to put money



14. WHO DOES NOT WANT THE CHANGE? (1) AARP, the nation's largest seniors organization, is coming out
strongly against President Bush's plan to allow private individual accounts
within Social Security. (2) On January 10, 2005, a NY Times Opinion piece stated this: "In this and other ways, the administration is manipulating
information - a tacit, yet devastating, acknowledgement, we believe, that an informed public would reject privatizing Social Security."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0

15. HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST TO PRIVATIZE SOCIAL SECURITY? transitioning to private accounts could cost $2 trillion. See above information also.


16. TO REVIEW, WHERE WOULD THAT MONEY COME FROM? our taxes will have to be increased to make Bush's proposed plan work.


17. THEY TELL US THAT SOCIAL SECURITY IS BROKE OR GOING BROKE?: With all the clamoring about Social Security, a simple fact has been obscured: the Social Security budget is currently running a surplus; [email protected]


18. OTHER COUNTRIES MUST HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MAYBE THOSE ARE BETTER? wrong: Chile's system, management fees are around 20 times as high. A privatized system will take money from your Social Security check.


19. SHOULD YOU BE WORRIED THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY? Nothing is going to change, in terms of benefits, for people near your retirement age.


20. WHO TAXED SOCIAL SECURITY TO BEGIN WITH? Ronald Reagan, a Republican, began the taxation on Social Security in 1983.


21. IF WE ARE GOING TO 'FIX IT' HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT TO DO AS RELATED TO WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IN THE PAST TO 'FIX' IT? "If you compare its position now with its position at the time of the last reforms in 1977 and 1983, it's clearly better," Professor Diamond said. "Even then, it was readily fixed without radical reforms, and it's obvious that can be done again." (a professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a co-author of the book "Saving Social Security.")





There is no Social Security crisis, just as there were no weapons of mass destruction. Social Security has provided a lifeline to millions of Americans with
millions of checks, and in more than 60 years has never missed a payment—and this track record can continue. Social Security is basically a sound system
that can meet 100 percent of its obligations for the next 39 years, and with responsible changes it can continue to do so indefinitely.

"Social Security is not a crisis for which enormous borrowing, huge benefit
cuts and risky private accounts are a solution. Rather,
it's a financial problem of manageable proportions,
solvable without new borrowing by a combination of modest
benefit cuts and tax increases that could be distributed
fairly and phased in over several decades, while
guaranteeing a basic level of inflation-proof income for
life."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0

And don't forget: It remains a fact that 30% of the votes in this national election were cast, and 80% of the votes were compiled, by three private companies, owned and controlled by conservative Republicans.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/01/12_give.html



REFERENCES:




Edmund L. Andrews; The New York Times ; Monday 10 January 2005:

HTtp://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=41481

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791950 )


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10mon1.html?ex=1106369074&ei=1&en=81cd3e12f07545a0


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61607-2005Jan9.html?referrer=email

[email protected]

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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You are right on, thanks for your response....
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BoogDoc7 Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-15-05 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Question...
Where in American history has there been a long-term 20-25+ year overall decrease in the stock market (that's about the life of investing, give or take I suppose)?
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. And your point is what.....????
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BoogDoc7 Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. My point is...
That IF any social security "reform" is held to be invalid, then private investment in the OVERALL stock market must be a loss over the long term for the plan to fail. I'm not talking one-stock investments, like Enron (which ANY financial planner will tell you is moronic).

In that case, how can the anti-reform argument stand if long-term investment in the overall stock market is a good thing?
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Think of SS as insurance, not as an investment or as a pension
plan.

It's not broken, it works great, and there are many other ways to help fund it in the future.
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BoogDoc7 Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Would you want...
To invest in something that gains 2%? Any local bank savings account gets better rates AND is just as sound an investment.

I'm not saying that the money should be given to us to spend. I'm just saying that the return SS is currently making is poor money management. That money can be managed even better even though it's an "insurance" policy....and I don't see it guaranteed under ANY administration. I'm NEVER going to bank on social security being there in 25-30-35 years for me.
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's not an investment.
Edited on Mon Jan-17-05 12:41 PM by phylny
I have insurance that I pay into, and I don't expect a return on that money. It's insurance. Now, yes the stock market has had a good overall return on investment, and that's why we invest money in stocks in our family. However, with the current deficit, I fear for the collapse of our market(s), the value of the dollar, and for fiscal stability in this country. Right now, SS has tremendous stability AND I get benefit from it later.

The "return" on our investment is more than a percentage - it provides a needed safety net for people like my 95 year old grandmother, who relies on it to eat and pay her rent. I don't want to see Bush take this money under the guise of "investing" because, first off and frankly, I think he lies when it suits him, and I don't trust him. My greatest concern is that he's going to tap into it to reduce the deficit, that his concern is not for people like my grandma, but for investment managers on Wall Street, who will earn even more commissions on the money that belongs to the people.

It's a bad idea. Why doesn't he raise the ceiling on wages that are subject to SS taxes? Or, why doesn't he clamp down on sub-s corps that allow people to take dividends, instead of salary? I say this as someone who would end up paying more money if either scenario occurred. Hey, why doesn't he set up bonds that people can buy, and cash in later?

In short, SS is insurance, not an investment, I don't trust Bush, don't trust the scheme, and I think Bush has ulterior motives. That's the honest truth.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Check out the rest of his posts. I think we have another one that
veered off the reserve.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. People retire every year. The market will be down
the year some people retire.
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Answer me this question BoogDoc7
Since bush is so certain that the stock market is the way to go--Why not have the Federal Government invest all the social security funds into the stock market and guarantee a profit?

Why I bet the feds would make so much money they could do away with ALL TAXES and pay goodly amounts of SS benefits too.

No?

180
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BoogDoc7 Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. A bit...
Simplistic. I do believe that proper investment would benefit SS - even at the so-called cost of "investment fees" that keeps getting harped on. Should the whole fund be in the market? Maybe. The market has always recovered from a crash....and none were ever catastrophic (especially under modern investment rules - people aren't going to lose money like the Great Depression).

Should all that money be in one basket? Probably not. BUT, if those fees are 1-2-3% of the take, and it makes 4-7% on the return, then it's better than the current system.

And it puts money back in MY pocket, AND I get to pass on what I put in to whoever I want to.
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. No no wait.
If it is good to have a thousand dollars invested in the market then investing two thousand is twice as good.

You are hedging your bets. I cannot believe your position.

I have TIAA-CREF some of the finest investments with a good track record. Even they are not recovering from the Bush* recession/depression.

But it is too late for me. Young people will have to live tomorrow on the decisions made today.

Consider carefully. One can be struck down early in life and SS will be the family's only salvation.

180



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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Stock market crashed in what years?
In recent memory, 92 and again in 98? 99?

Not good enough for long-term investment, especially when you have so many greedy people working the cocktail parties for whisper numbers.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-18-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I have a question for you...Why not do both?
You're putting into the SS fund, as is your employer, for a guaranteed return in the future.

If you take some of the money your making, not much, say the 2% of your weekly income, lets say $500 for arguments sake; that is $10. Not too much to take on the side and invest in what you want. It is your money, take it and invest it, $10 isn't going to get you to the millionaire club real quick, but you've started. If your $10, (x52 weeks= $520 per annum), falls flat because of a market downturn, you can still rely on SS in the future to at least see you through.

To me, it is simple...just do both. That 2% is really minimal. If you make $1000 a week, WOW! $20 a week into the market! Not too hard to do.

If everyone did that, to the tune of billions per month, the market would become a huge bubble waiting to burst. Those that have knowledge of the market would prosper....virtually everyone else would take a bath when the bubble burst.

The whole bush scheme, is to put TRILLIONS of dollars into his already ridiculously rich pals pockets. There is nothing honest about this at all, and going by bush's business record, ALL failures, I wouldn't trust him to buy me a candy bar at the local newsstand.

Please, take this into consideration, bush has NEVER been involved in a business that has not FAILED! Every one, without fail, was bailed out by rich backers and friends. Why would you think this scheme would work?
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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kick
180
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