Someone accused me in a PM of lying about

[Eloriel]

Kerry's support of Bush when he said, "Bush is a good guy who's trying to do good things."

I think it was on MTP, wasn't it? Does anyone have a link to the transcript, or the exact quote (and a link)?

Thanks in advance.

Eloriel

[Terwilliger]

1. he sure as hell said that

said that to Russert last week or the week before

I posted after he said that. I've got to wonder what Kerry is really all about.

[Maddy McCall]

2. No offense...just curious...

why do dean supporters continue to degrade other democrat candidates, and then other dem candidate supporters react with hostility?

Why can't we all just quit destroying the images of dems we don't support and realize that every bad thing we drag out on one of our candidates will end up being fodder for the republican mud slinging later?

Jeez, the mudslinging on behalf of dean supporters (not picking on you especially, but it just seems that dean supporters are the ones who like to point out others' faults the most) is turning me completely off for dean, and IF he wins the nomination, it will leave a bad taste in my mouth if I have to vote for him in 2004.

And I am undecided as of yet...will wait for the debates.

[Pastiche423]

4. How long have you been following politics?

[Maddy McCall]

13. Hmmm...25 years now...

And the easiest way to "discredit" someone is to take a statement out of context. When you put it into context, it doesn't seem so EEEEEVIL does it?

"MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to the man you’d like to unseat if you become the Democratic nominee, and that’s George Bush. You’d spoke to Vogue magazine in March, and said this. “Kerry is unguarded in his comments about the man whose job he is currently after. He says his colleagues are appalled at the president’s ‘lack of knowledge’... And...he says, ‘They have managed him the same way they managed
Ronald Reagan. They send him out to the press for one event a day, they put him in a brown jacket and jeans and get him to move some hay or drive a truck, and all of a sudden he’s the Marlboro Man. I know this guy. He was two years behind me at Yale, and I knew him, and he’s still the same guy.’”
What does that mean?
SEN. KERRY: I believe that President Bush is a very likable fellow, and I respect—I think he’s a good man who wants to do good things.
MR. RUSSERT: Does he lack knowledge, as you say?
SEN. KERRY: I disagree with the president’s approach to almost everything he’s doing—almost everything. And you look at America and the choices we face today, Tim. On the budget, he’s favoring the wealthy in America at the expense of the middle class. He has ignored the plight of job loss in America. He has gone backwards on the environment, backwards on cities and urban—look, we’ve given a tax cut to people while states are being forced to raise taxes and cut services. He’s gone backwards in the international community. He is not making us safer in the world. He has ignored the problems of North Korea to the point that they’re a crisis. We should be freezing right where we are with North Korea today. We should be dealing with Russia and the problem of loose nuclear materials more effectively. We should be leading the world on global warming."

[Eloriel]

26. It is just as EEEEEVIL to me in context as I considered it

out of context. It means exactly the same to me either way.

But I do appreciate the exact quote AND the context. Like I said: means the same to me both ways.

Eloriel

[sujan]

104. they're frat buddies

one has to scratch the back of the other...

[madfloridian]

6. Really look at the threads.

Really look at what you say is "degrading". Try to figure who started the thread, and then who is saying the degrading things. Most of the time it is not who you think.

[Lady President]

8. I completely agree with you

The mudslinging is making me dislike Dean more and more. I admit that I plan to vote for Kerry, but Dean was my number two choice. I will vote for Dean against Bush*, of course, but it's starting to feel like a choice between two bullies.

[newsguyatl]

11. ummm

>>>>Jeez, the mudslinging on behalf of dean supporters (not picking on you especially, but it just seems that dean supporters are the ones who like to point out others' faults the most) is turning me completely off for dean, and IF he wins the nomination, it will leave a bad taste in my mouth if I have to vote for him in 2004.<<<


are you even kidding me?!?!?! have you NOT seen the constant barrage of attacks and petulance aimed at DEAN on DU? are you even kidding me? please tell me you're kidding me.


dean is BY FAR the MOST attacked candidate on this forum, BY FAR... there's not even a comparison. and BY FAR, kerry supporters are the main culprits (just take a look at a certain "N_J" poster for a small tasting) and he's just an example of a nascent PLETHORA of them on this board.


i CHALLENGE you, dear friend, to find ONE single post where eloriel has bashed and slung mud, as it were... eloriel is simply pointing out a FACT about senator kerry, a statement that he made... this isn't capricious tripe that she's just sitting around thinking about. this is fact...

and that's a HELL of a lot more than most of the dean attackers can muster.

[Maddy McCall]

17. I've seen it all, but I stand by what I say...

and I MUST add that I in no way have participated in it, nor will I participate in it in the future.

It looks more like desperation than anything. Dems have nothing about which to be desperate--a great field of canditates for 2004...so we need to continue building bridges instead of tearing each other's candidates apart.

If you are going to "point out statements" made by candidates you don't like, then why not leave it in context???

[Eloriel]

34. If I'd have HAD the original context, I'd have used it.

I didn't.

And I'll say it again: to me, the context doesn't improve it. BESIDES, if you think it's fine for Kerry to have said that under ANY context, what are you getting so upset about?

Don't you think Kerry has a right to feel that way?

It was another DUer who sent me a livid PM saying -- well, hell, I'll go find it:

Stop Lying about Kerry
Kerry NEVER said that. You can lie all you want, but your credibility is shot.

--------

So, I didn't lie, and wasn't even mistaken. He said what he said, and Kerry SUPPORTERS are all aflutter, accusing Dean supporters of mudslinging by merely repeating what Kerry said. And what Kerry said isn't any different in or out of context, at least AFAIC.

Eloriel

[ProfessorGAC]

118. Could You Explain That Further, Eloriel?

I admit that his saying "good man trying to do good things" sticks in my throat too, but in reading the whole context it DOES take a whole new meaning for me.

How can you say the meaning doesn't change? To me it's obvious that Kerry is avoiding saying what he really thinks, and just skirts it as closely as he thinks he's able. I infer that he'd like to call Bush an amiable dunce, with strings being pulled from above, but avoid that.

I certainly see no compliment toward li'l Georgie in that statement.

I'm not a Kerry guy. So don't get me wrong. But i think the context does impact the way that statement should be taken. How can it not?
The Professor

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. Hear Hear.

And when those posts stop, so do I (stop challenging them).









Edit- parenthetical

[DemBones DemBones]

93. So Dean is so special that no one is allowed to question him?

No one is allowed to show that his record shows some disturbing things about him?

Dean supporters got angry at Kucinich for saying in the AFL-CIO debates that Dean had supported raising the Social Security age to 68 or 70. Later in the debate, Dean denied what Kucinich said -- said he never said it. The next day he issued a statement that he'd "misspoke" when he said that.

The AFL-CIO debate was on August 5, 2003.

On June 22, 2003, Dean told Tim Russert that he would (1)"entertain" or (2)"look at" raising the retirement age to 68, after admitting that he previously supported raising it to 70. Russert's source for the latter position was a 1995 article so the spin by the Deanies was "It was eight years ago," sounding much like the "It was only sixteen words" defense of Dubya's "misspeaking" about supposed evidence of Saddam buying uranium. This, of course, overlooks the fact that he did say it and that in the same interview, he TWICE suggested he might raise the retirement age to 68, though he said he no longer supported raising it to 70.

But the Deanies completely ignored Dean's denials on August 5 of what he had said on June 22. Do you suppose he completely forgot what he said while being grilled by Tim Russert on national television? :eyes:

[Julien Sorel]

57. Challenge met, dear friend.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=285944#288880

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. Where's the mud?

Link from The Guardian. An opinion that says to take a closer look.

[Julien Sorel]

74. She drew a firm, negative conclusion,

based on one article, oversimplifying a complex situation into an attack on Clark -- 'he didn't do too well.' That's smearing. If all she'd done was say, 'take a closer look,' as the piece did, it would have been better, but she chose to draw a conclusion based on that one article. I think I'll go out and find one critical article about Dean and draw conclusions about Dean based on it. That would be fair, right? You seem to think so.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. "He didn't do too well."

That's a smear?






(To your second part: There was a Google link that suggested there were many more articles than just this one, check them out. I don't have a problem with Clark, btw, I just don't think this rises to mud or smear.)

[Julien Sorel]

88. It's an attack, and drew attention to a

one-sided article that was itself a veiled attack on Clark. Her post, in its entirety, was a smear, and it was certainly mudslinging.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

97. OK

We'll agree to disagree.

[Eloriel]

18. Degrade Kerry with his own words?

What next, degrade him with his own record?

Excuse me, but if you consider quoting Kerry himself mudslinging --
I am shaking my head in utter disbelief. Heck -- ROTFL -- there's no way to ANSWER such a charge as yours since it's so divorced from anything resembling reality.

Eloriel

[Maddy McCall]

50. Yes, you discredit him by taking his statement OUT OF CONTEXT

which is to me and others in my field a form of intellectual dishonesty.

[Terwilliger]

84. out of what context???

That statement needs no explanation. It is a public statement of Kerry's. Now, you can say that he means to play to the middle and the right by not attacking Bush, but the vocal record is clear...he thinks Bush is a "good man" out to do "good things"

Do you think Bush is a good man out to do good things?

[Maddy McCall]

89. Out of the context of his other remarks that criticized bush...

He said he is trying to do good things...I won't get into a semantics argument with a dean supporter. BUT, did you NOT read the rest of his remarks??? He is VERY critical of Bush, and that is what matters to me. Not the "good guy" remark which was obviously meant to temper his harsh criticism of bush.

I am out of this...you can hang your hat on single statements that justify your hatred of Kerry if you want. I will do a little more investigating before I make a decision based on any candidate's single sentence.

[Terwilliger]

94. I base it on that and "get over it"

Also, many, many, many other things he's said and done which include giving Bush authority to do what he wanted over Iraq.

[jafap]

113. what about the concluding paragraph?

The only thing that sentance does is take it away from the level of personal attacks. And technically, you are both wrong in changing "wants" to either "out" (in your case) or "trying" (in Elorial's case). A subtle difference - he may want to do good things, but be too simple-minded or too controlled by Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz to be able to.

Kerry's following paragraph is the important part, starting with: "I disagree with the president’s approach to almost everything he’s doing." So, his sentance about Bush being a good guy is not a "hurrah for the Phonident" as is implied, but it is rather a statement which says "Bush is a nice guy, but his policies are whacked." So it takes the debate away from my visceral hatred of the arrogant-rich-lying-bastard and away from other people's admiration of his fancy suits, simple manners and charm. Molly Ivins wrote much the same thing - "I like Bush as a person, but hate him as a governor" (paraphrase).

[Julien Sorel]

24. Exactly why I found myself looking at Dean's candidacy

with a critical eye. There is an edge his supporters have that I find disturbing -- the phrase 'cult of personality' comes to mind -- and I don't think they see their candidate rationally any longer. To a certain extent that happens with all candidacies of course, but the stuff I see with Dean's is way beyond what is normal. Dean transcends mere policy, Dean is going to raise 600 million dollars through the internet, everyone who criticizes Dean is lying or ignorant -- it's simply not rational. It's nationalism being applied to a human being: Dean has his own cult right here on Democratic Undergound. Of course, other candidates must be attacked under those circumstances, because they represent the forces of political heresy.


All this would be fine, of course, because inspiring passion is a great thing in a candidate, but the problem is this kind of devotion, which is Dean's biggest asset, isn't going to extend into the general populace, who want to know what each candidate is going to do for them, not how the candidate makes them feel, which is the real attraction Dean has for his core supporters: his frequent expression of anger at Bush validates the anger some marginalized Democrats have been feeling for years, so they like him. It doesn't matter that his politics are actually to the right of the other candidates, because he transcends such mundane considerations. It doesn't matter that the Republicans lust for Dean to be the Dem nominee so they can attack him as a weak-on-defense liberal; this simply means they are stupid, or lying about it because they are terrified of Dean (poll numbers and political logic notwithstanding), and besides, there's that 600 million dollars Dean will raise over the internet.

Did I say will raise? Heck, he might as well have already raised it. In fact, since he is just now getting good name recognition, 600 million might be a conservative (heh) estimate. Why not a billion? The Dean Machine is coming, and no one can resist the magic of this marvelous man! As soon as people see him effortlessly flip-flop on the issues to say whatever is the smart thing at the time, as soon as they see Dean light up the room with his righteous anger at Bush, they will run, not walk, home to their computers, fire them up, and start sending in their donations. The Doctor is as good as in the House! The White House, that is. As Karl Rove said, "Go Dean! That's the one we want!"

[newsguyatl]

30. i KNOW

you're not talking about dean supporters being a cult?!?!


bwhahahahahahahaahaha


clark supporters are by far the most militant on this board... look, you just couldn't RESIST the urge to keep out could you? you just HAD to chime in with your insults... way to go!

[Julien Sorel]

42. Yes, Clark supporters are all over every Dean

thread, making insane accusations against him.

Notice my post: it's a reasoned criticism of Dean's campaign, and his chances in the general election, which I'm not optimistic about. Now, compare it to the kind of nonsense that pops up on Clark threads, the war criminal, Pristina, Z-mag stuff that is simply ridiculous, some of which comes from Dean supporters, and on every Clark thread, there are guaranteed to be a few Dean supporters making snide, hit-and-run comments. Notice your own reply here: simply a sneer, devoid of substance.

I'm tempted to point out that your post is symbolic of Dean's candidacy to date, but I'm hoping Dean gets better with age. Some of his supporters... ahh I don't have the heart to finish it.

[newsguyatl]

51. no

your post was filled with cynicism about dean and his supporters... i just re-read it. why try to make ME look like the bad person here? i've NEVER (read it) NEVER said one single bad thing about clark the candidate, not here, not anywhere... that "nonsense" that you say pops up here has never come from me... in fact, i very much like clark for dean's vp. i was simply pointing out the fact that many clark supporters (read it) supporters, are militant... and quite honestly, make me very uncomfortable. and my other point was that you just HAD to BUTT into this thread and slide an insult to dean and his supporters, FURTHER backing up my ORIGINAL point in this thread that dean BY FAR takes the brunt of the shit here... so, thank you, for helping my argument in so many ways.


see, i DO have the heart to finish MY post.

[Julien Sorel]

63. Cynicism is a natural response to the over-heated

kind of fanboy nonsense that Dean's supporters pour out every day. Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but my post was logical and reasoned, unlike your two.

Incidentally, how can a post pointing out how irrational Dean's supporters are, in reply to a post made by someone else who was turned off by that very same irrationality, be 'butting in'? It again, makes no sense.

[Julien Sorel]

73. By the way, while I'm at it,

which Clark supporters are 'militant?' I'm just about the only one I see posting on other candidates' threads. I've gone over this twice now, both times with Dean supporters claiming Clark supporters do nothing but bash Dean, and both times the Deanyboppers pointed out the exact same two(two) supporters, neither of whom posts here any longer. So where are the 'militants'?

[KC21304]

59. Yes, BillyBunter, how dare you butt in here and insult.

Couldn't you tell this was the insult Kerry thread ?? lol

[newsguyatl]

62. woohoo!!

another smartass one liner from a kerry fan!!!


BIG surprise there!!

[Maddy McCall]

66. Edited by jchild after reading a post from Eloriel below

...n/t

[Sterling]

108. And he is not even in the race?

I don't get the Clark supporters. Seems like it's fabricated. Why get so upity about someone who is not even in the race and was not even admitting to being a Dem until last week?

[Julien Sorel]

110. Kind of like Dean supporters getting uppity and

attacking someone who's not even in the race. In fact, attacking someone who's not even in the race makes no sense at all by your reasoning. But expecting sense from people one considers irrational is a mug's game.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. What was that?

I was getting my mind-control implant adjusted.

[seventhson]

31. Screw Kerry and the horses he rides in on

I did not start on Kerry until people here started BASHING Gore all the time in favor of Kerry.

I am NOT a strong Dean Supporter and only just recently came around to hium when it became clear that Al seriously was staying out and , to me, Kucinich just doesn't have what it takes to win.

I am liking Dean by Default. But I like him.

I have been against Kerry from the start,

EVERYBODY here knows that Kerry is in the same secret order sworn to allegiance with the Bushes.

That makes him TOO CLOSE to the Bushes for any sane Democrat to trust him.

But do NOT paint a broad brush that it is just the Dean folks who criticize Kerry.

Eloriel has come a long way to Dean.

We ALL have come to know what a scumbag Kerry is with his fake medals toss and his other Bush sucking.

Anyway -- point is: MANY of us really think Kerry is dogsh*t for his Iraq war vote, his support of Bush's constitution disemboweling on homeland security and the patriot act (sics). It has NOTHING to so with the fact that we happen to support Dean.

So stop blaming the Dean folks. I am not really as "Dean" person. I support him because he is the best we've got at the moment. Leagues better than Bush or Kerry.


But the folks who viscerally think Kerry sucks are just that.

Blaming it on the Dean folks is bullshyte.

Kerry made his own bed.

I am NOT getting into it.

[newsguyatl]

35. nice post!

thanks

[seventhson]

54. It needed to be said...

Kerry stinks and you do not have to be Dean supporter to know it. And if you are a Dean supporter does not mean you are going to ignnore it or even flaunt it.

Somebody on this thread just said that Dean's supporters are turning him into a "cult" personality.

Well, speaking of cults, what about Skull and Biones, That is about as Culty as you come. And plenty of culty Kerry types seem to be coming like night of the living dead.

Kerry is RICH. Richest guy in the Senate. HUGE fortune. worth like Half a Billion. He can affords to hire hacks to nicey up on DU.


But NOTHING about Dean suggest a cult. So I suspect these are Rove talking points.

Watch where they come from: Kerry supporters? Clark Supporters?

SOMEONE here -- ar a few someones -- have all the Rove democratic talking points scripted very well and all the ops are using them.

WHENEVER you see it- call them on it.

This one was particularly scurrilous. Especially since I am proDean but I am just arriving there.

But I am as antiKerry as they come.


ANYBODY but Bush or Kerry.

I started my crusade with respect to Kerry when I thought he was gonna be Al's VP replacement for Holy Joe and Al then might get JFK'd.

NOW I say NO to Kerry for President OR the VP slot!!! That would place Dean (or whoever) in grave danger.

THAT is why I am so vehement.

[newsguyatl]

60. wow

nice to have another someone so well spoken and so well informed on the dean camp...

and thanks for pointing out the irony of the "cult" comment. nice.

[Julien Sorel]

112. WOW

He doesn't like Kerry because he thought Kerry would have Gore assassinated, and you call that 'well spoken and so well informed.'

Yeah, I withdraw my objections to Dean because of the beliefs of his supporters. They are right in line with mainstream America. Dean should add that to his campaign speeches; it would be one more thing his supporters could get angry about: the nefarious plot of John Kerry to assassinate would-be President Gore.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Brian Sweat]

117. Just currious

All the poster did was point out what Kerry said. If something that Kerry said makes him look bad, why did he say it?


I am not a Dean fanatic and I get tired of all of the attacks on DU, but Kerry can avoid partisanship without playing nice-nice with Bush. Bush is not a good man and who cares about this country. To say that is, is not worthy of a Democratic candidate.

[peekaloo]

3. here

http://www.msnbc.com/news/960385.asp


scroll down....near the end.

SEN. KERRY: I believe that President Bush is a very likable fellow, and I respect—I think he’s a good man who wants to do good things.

[KC21304]

15. He said he is a likable fellow, didn't say that he liked him.

Said he thinks he's a good man who wants to do good things.

He didn't say he was doing good things, kind of implied that Bush either doesn't know what he is doing or other people are calling the shots.

Now I guess you think that is despicable behavior, I think it is being gentlemanly. He was not on the campaign stump, he was on a national TV show. He has shown many times what he thinks of the way Bush is doing things, in my estimation , but carry on with the ritual.

[Terwilliger]

16. he lied

like he does so often?

or he was telling the truth, whereby proving that Dmeocrats should not vote for him

He's either an idiot or a liar...which is it?

[KC21304]

44. I don't usually get in these pissing matches,

but what exactly did he lie about ? I think after reading the entire context of the answer, it bears out exactly what I said. And I didn't see the show so I didn't know the context. He explained very well what he meant.


Idiot or liar huh ? I don't use those terms to describe other Democratic candidates so I think I will pass on picking one of them for my own.

[Terwilliger]

90. meaning you're intellectually dishonest

or you acknowledge that all this hem and haw that Kerry spews about being lied to and "Bush is a good man" and "get over it" is just exactly that...endorsement of the Republican agenda which he is apparently part of

[Maddy McCall]

20. Plus, put the statement in the context in which it was made:

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to the man you’d like to unseat if you become the Democratic nominee, and that’s George Bush. You’d spoke to Vogue magazine in March, and said this. “Kerry is unguarded in his comments about the man whose job he is currently after. He says his colleagues are appalled at the president’s ‘lack of knowledge’... And...he says, ‘They have managed him the same way they managed
Ronald Reagan. They send him out to the press for one event a day, they put him in a brown jacket and jeans and get him to move some hay or drive a truck, and all of a sudden he’s the Marlboro Man. I know this guy. He was two years behind me at Yale, and I knew him, and he’s still the same guy.’”
What does that mean?
SEN. KERRY: I believe that President Bush is a very likable fellow, and I respect—I think he’s a good man who wants to do good things.
MR. RUSSERT: Does he lack knowledge, as you say?
SEN. KERRY: I disagree with the president’s approach to almost everything he’s doing—almost everything. And you look at America and the choices we face today, Tim. On the budget, he’s favoring the wealthy in America at the expense of the middle class. He has ignored the plight of job loss in America. He has gone backwards on the environment, backwards on cities and urban—look, we’ve given a tax cut to people while states are being forced to raise taxes and cut services. He’s gone backwards in the international community. He is not making us safer in the world. He has ignored the problems of North Korea to the point that they’re a crisis. We should be freezing right where we are with North Korea today. We should be dealing with Russia and the problem of loose nuclear materials more effectively. We should be leading the world on global warming.

[peekaloo]

23. didn't post the link to castigate Kerry

just to answer the original posters' request.

[angka]

103. oh for pity's sake he's a fellow bonesman.

i don't even know what that means-maybe nothing. i just wanted to say it.

[fla nocount]

5. Hold tough dear friend.

Anyone who lines up behind the DNC is lost in the next election. People will vote for a whole new alternative or we will lose it all. Kerry seems to have made a choice.........business as usual.

[UTUSN]

7. The Prob Ain't That We Dems Fight Amongst Ourselves

the prob is that our younger gen, as I was once, act like we're the FIRST ones who ever tried to do good, but worse than THAT, that we won't SUPPORT somebody besides OUR IMMACULATE CONCEPTION. That's why we lose.

[DemBones DemBones]

116. DING, DING, DING!!! A bit of wisdom amidst

insanity.

[RichM]

9. I remember him saying this. It was together with a remark about how

Kerry had known Bush at Yale, & he's the same guy now as he was then. It was exactly last week -- Aug 31.

[0rganism]

10. Don't assume Kerry is supporting Bush when he says that

I'd say it's more of a "damning with faint praise" situation, politically safe, while the "trying to do" bit leaves him all kinds of openings to criticize W on the specific policies.

I'm not a huge Kerry fan, but I see a lot of people saying he's on the BFEE payroll when he's just practicing shrewd politics. Maybe he shouldn't be moderating his speech at this time, but I bet he's counting on support from a lot of moderate Dems who may think Bush failed while attempting the right things for the wrong reasons.

Dean and Kucinich are firm and forceful in their criticism of shrub, and that appeals to many of us here. They're right on, IMHO. But remember, down the road, when W starts spending that $200000000 on campaign ads, anything that seems immoderate is going to be the basis for "partisan tone in washington" smears. So on the one hand, Kerry isn't supporting shrub, but on the other he isn't exposing himself to the criticisms of "shrill extremist" later.

Shrewd. Perhaps too much so to win the nomination.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. "damning with faint praise"

took the words right off my keyboard. Geez, what should Kerry say? "Bush is an evil man Tim, and I believe he's trying to seat Satan himself in the White House. In fact he's probably drawing pentagrams on the Oval Office floor at this very moment." :eyes:

[Terwilliger]

21. he isnt??

WHAT THE FUCK HAVE WE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ON THIS BOARD FOR 3 YEARS?!?!?!?!

If Kerry represents the Democratic party (and, ya know, a little basic truth) then he should have said

"Mr. Bush is a puppet figurehead whose only purpose is to fatten the wallet of his buddies and carry forward American imperialist endeavors"

Too bad Kerry's so much a part of that imperialism :eyes:

OnEdit: spelling

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. Oh yeah sure...that'll get him elected

The sad truth is the rest of this country isn't as informed and enlightened as are the people here at DU. Kerry knows that your description is the ugly truth better than anyone but such blunt talk will turn more people off than on.

[Terwilliger]

40. OK

so, do you think Kerry has a chance in hell of defeating Bush?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

48. much more than a chance in hell

shit, I'm depending on it. I cannot contemplate the alternative.

[Terwilliger]

85. well then you should contemplate a better candidate

Hell, Kerry's not even polling well within the party

[dsc]

14. I tend to agree with you on that

but the point of this thread, which seems to have been lost, is that the poster was accused of lying and wasn't. That happens alot to us Dean supporters.

[0rganism]

55. you're right, yet this could have been at the root of the misunderstanding

Kerry gets raked over the DU coals, such as they are, for being insufficiently anti-shrub, when it seems to me he's just being very careful about how he presents it.

[Terwilliger]

19. he's a politician

and as such he knew exactly what he was doing when he gave Bush authorization to go to war last year.

He's a war-mongering craphound who is nowhere near part of the "opposition"

[Maddy McCall]

22. And he just may be our party's nominee who faces bush

Will you vote for the "craphound" then???

[newsguyatl]

25. maybe the more relevant question is

will YOU vote for dean... or will the bad taste in your mouth be too much?

[Maddy McCall]

33. under no circumstances will I vote for Bush

but I really don't think I will have to vote for Dean--he may be polling high now, but polls are fickle things.

I would vote for Spongebob before I would vote for any Republican.

[newsguyatl]

38. and i guess

all those thousands of people at every dean stump speech are 'fickle things' too eh?


keep thinking that :-)

[Maddy McCall]

61. ...just a small small part of the complete electorate...

nothing against dean supporters...great that they are so enthusiastic, but all combined they aren't the majority of the electorate.

I said the polls are fickle, not dean's supporters. I agree with the above poster who said that dean's main problem will be translating that fervent support to the rest of the American electorate.

[Terwilliger]

27. probably not

I dont believe Kerry serves the real interestes of the Democratic party...unless, of course, the real interests are served by imperialist expansion and neoliberalism.

[Zhade]

29. I don't know...

(Remember, I'm not decided on a candidate yet, so keep that in mind.)

"I think he’s a good man who wants to do good things."

Bush simply is not a good man.

To me, this is not very honest on Kerry's part. Either he doesn't really think Bush is a good guy - in which case this is, as said above, business as usual - or he does think Bush is a good guy, in which case he is not the candidate for me, or anyone who sees the evil occupying the White House. And let's be plain: Bush clearly is an evil man. He may be unknowingly evil, he may even think he's good, but his actions, and those of the men and women around him, speak volumes as to his real nature.

Good and pure he ain't.

So I do have to ask, why the hell did Kerry say this? It's a point against him in my book. We don't have time for people to pussyfoot around on this stuff - what we need is clear, direct truth spoken without a damn for the consequences. Principles should never take a back seat to political maneuvering. That's how we got to where we are today.

[disgruntella]

39. here's what I don't get

Why do people expect candidates (in this case, Kerry) to automatically spout their own anger and frustration with Bush?

Your anger (and mine) toward Bush is certainly valid and I think we all have a right to express it.

But did it ever occur to anyone else (besides me) that a sitting senator may not have the luxury of saying "Bush is an evil S.O.B" in every single interview?

I am happy that there are Democrats like Dean who are more publicly confrontational towards Bush. But personally I need more than that to sell me on a candidate.

[Zhade]

49. I'm not saying he has to proclaim that Bush is Satan or anything.

What I do know is this: while Kerry doesn't have to scream that Bush is evil for me to listen, he sure as hell can't say Bush is a good guy and expect me to give him any cred. He could easily have just not said anything either way. Instead, he chose to state that Bush is a good guy.

Why? I don't like it. Sits very badly with me. Can't Kerry see what Bush is really like, even if he doesn't come out and say it? If he can't see it, then he's not in touch with reality enough to do what needs to be done to get this country back on its feet.

I respect Kerry's past, but I need more honesty and less "make-nice" comments about Bush from him before I can respect his present.

[disgruntella]

56. Can you read Kerry's mind?

"Can't Kerry see what Bush is really like, even if he doesn't come out and say it?"

I suggest you write Kerry a letter and ask him what he thinks.

"Dear Senator Kerry - Do You Like George W. Bush? Circle Yes or No."

Kerry is critical of Bush in countless intelligent ways. But just because he said "good guy" in one interview, you're willing to write him off. I still don't get it, but you're welcome to your opinion.

[Zhade]

68. I'm not making my point very well here.

Kerry did not have to say if he feels Bush is a good person or a bad person. He could simply discuss Bush's policies.

Yet he made a concious decision to say that Bush is a good guy. Either he means it, or he doesn't. If he does mean it, he can go to hell - Bush is not a good guy, and anyone who says he is will never be able to see the reality of what is happening to America.

If he doesn't mean it, he's giving a false impression that he does like Bush. He is pandering. And, again, that's not the candidate for me.

All of this could have been avoided had Kerry simply not made a comment on Bush's character one way or the other. Yet he did, and his own words are what damn him, in my estimation. You are totally free to feel otherwise - I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to point out, why say it if he didn't have to? That's all.

[0rganism]

77. Well, you gotta put it back in context

You say either Kerry means "good guy" (in which case he sucks) or he doesn't (in which case he's dishonest). You neglected the middle ground where Kerry's idea of a "good guy" differs significantly from your own. So what was the lead-up and exact wording, according to the transcript?

------

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn to the man you’d like to unseat if you become the Democratic nominee, and that’s George Bush. You’d spoke to Vogue magazine in March, and said this. “Kerry is unguarded in his comments about the man whose job he is currently after. He says his colleagues are appalled at the president’s ‘lack of knowledge’... And...he says, ‘They have managed him the same way they managed Ronald Reagan. They send him out to the press for one event a day, they put him in a brown jacket and jeans and get him to move some hay or drive a truck, and all of a sudden he’s the Marlboro Man. I know this guy. He was two years behind me at Yale, and I knew him, and he’s still the same guy.’” What does that mean?

SEN. KERRY: I believe that President Bush is a very likable fellow, and I respect—I think he’s a good man who wants to do good things.

MR. RUSSERT: Does he lack knowledge, as you say?

SEN. KERRY: I disagree with the president’s approach to almost everything he’s doing—almost everything. And you look at America and the choices we face today, Tim. On the budget, he’s favoring the wealthy in America at the expense of the middle class. He has ignored the plight of job loss in America. He has gone backwards on the environment, backwards on cities and urban—look, we’ve given a tax cut to people while states are being forced to raise taxes and cut services. He’s gone backwards in the international community. He is not making us safer in the world. He has ignored the problems of North Korea to the point that they’re a crisis. We should be freezing right where we are with North Korea today. We should be dealing with Russia and the problem of loose nuclear materials more effectively. We should be leading the world on global warming.

MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, you said that you knew him, that he’s the same guy he was at Yale. What does that mean?

SEN. KERRY: I think, Tim, the important thing is, what is he doing as president. As president I don’t believe he’s offering the kind of leadership our country needs. That’s what this struggle is about. This is about the presidency of the United States and the direction of our country. And I believe President Bush is not making our country safer and stronger abroad, and I think he is ignoring the choices here at home that make a difference to the quality of our life. And, generationally, as a member of the same generation, someone who came from the same institution, I have a very different vision of where America ought to go. I want us to lead.

MR. RUSSERT: But are you appalled by his lack of knowledge?

SEN. KERRY: I am appalled by the lack of his agenda, by the lack of direction, by the lack of leadership, by the lack of willingness to show a vision that takes America to a better place, by his willingness to divide America, to use the politics of wedge, of driving between people, like the Michigan case, or calling things quotas that aren’t quotas, or beginning to—or appointing judges who are ideological, who want to take away the right of privacy, take away the right to choose, someone who wants to pack the court system of America, someone who doesn’t do the hard work of bringing Congress to the table, and helping to lead us to find the common ground. You know, John McCain and I found the common ground. This president doesn’t try.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/960385.asp

-------

If that isn't a prime example of "damning with faint praise", they must have rewritten the definition while I wasn't looking.

[Maddy McCall]

79. Thank you...that's what I have been saying all along...

Thanks for taking the time to post it in that way.

[Julien Sorel]

52. No, you have it wrong. The only correct way to communicate

is to attack, attack, attack. Any kind word said about one's opponents is a sign of weakness and stupidity. You have to constantly call them idiots, treasonous, stupid, illogical, fascist, terrorist, and make the accusation you heard they were lousy in bed!

Don't worry about alienating the reasonable people out there -- they'll get over it.

[0rganism]

70. I stand corrected

:crazy: although I do hope you were being sarcastic. It's getting to be a dangerous assumption these days.

[Maddy McCall]

75. That is what is sickening me, and is why I don't come to DU much

anymore. It is repulsive to me, and we are making the Republicans' job easier...they won't have to look any further than DU to find talking points against the Dem candidates, one of which we will have to vote for in 04.

It shows lack of foresight on the part of the attackers here.

[dsc]

36. We must be on planet bizarro

Eloriel is accused of lying by a Kerry supporter. She didn't lie. Kerry supporters post quotes which show she didn't lie. Yet this is somehow proof, not of a particular Kerry supporter's bad behavior, but of Dean supporters' bad behavior. Can someone explain that to me in plain English so I can get it?

[seventhson]

41. Kerry is a Sellout to the BFEE

Kerry is the Skull candidate on the dems side.

Kerry is Skull.

Bush is Skull.

Skull is BFEE (mostly).





Therefore Kerry's supporters are supporting the BFEE.

Is it clear enough NOW?

THAT is how I see it.

I don't trust Clark either.

I like Dean/Edwards

[disgruntella]

45. ah, the cool fresh taste

of IGNORE...

[0rganism]

64. Translation: "a vote for Kerry is a vote for Bush"

In between the rigged voting machines, the SCOTUS from Hell, butterfly ballot Jews-for-Buchanan, Nader = Bush, and now Kerry = Bush, there are just too damn many ways to vote for Bush these days. I don't know if you're right, and I hope to goodness you're wrong, because Sen. Kerry may well get the nomination and we desparately need to remove Bush from office.

[Eloriel]

43. Amen, amen, amen

I am just going berserk here with the surreality of all this.

Un-freakin'-believable.

Thanks for being one of the few sane voices on this thread. I was beginning to think *I* was nuts, which is exactly where the phrase "crazy-making" comes from, often applied to certain people who behave in certain ways.

Eloriel

[KittyWampus]

76. What's Even More Surreal Eloriel Is Your Airing Dirty Laudry On DU

If you wanted help finding a quote from a Dem Candidate why not just ask for it without the bullshit about "someone accused me of lying"???

If someone accused you in a personal mail, then it's between the two of you...

[dsc]

78. That is a bizarre notion

It seems to me that one doesn't have an expectation of privacy from someone whom they falsely accuse of having lied. It should also be noted that in no way, shape, or form, was the identity of the false accuser made known.

[0rganism]

80. This is a bizarre thread.

As Homer Simpson's brain says to him while touring the apple cider factory when Ned Flanders shows up in an apple hat, mentions he has a season pass, and proceeds to lecture Homer about varieties of apple juice, "You can stay here if you like, but I'm leaving."

Homer's body then collapses.

[Forkboy]

82. This thread goes off on more tangents

Than Dennis Miller on crack.

[sendero]

47. No question...

... you *are* on planet bizarro. A planet where someone would accuse Eloriel of lying. Pigs are flying out of the most unlikely places.

[sattahipdeep]

92. The man has

no warts does that mean the statement is evil?

[Eloriel]

46. Just for the record

I did NOT post this to be inflammatory or certainly not to bash Kerry (with his own words????? puh-leez).

I really took exception to someone actually PMing me (and I hate PMs anyway) to accuse me of LYING, which I most certainly am not prone (or known!) to do in any case. And I wanted the quote, so decided to ask the people who surely would know -- DUers.

Thanks for the help.

LOL -- and for the rest of you, raspberries. :evilgrin:

Really, this thread is so out of hand, I can only laugh about it. And it's not even the Full Moon quite yet.

Eloriel

[newsguyatl]

53. hehe

tell me about...

now I'M worked up eloriel and i need to be in bed!

[Shanty Oilish]

58. Eloriel does not lie

And I say that as a Kerry supporter. (Not that I'm thrilled with his positions, only I think he'll do better against Bush than the others. Most attractive to the center. Or at this point, least unattractive.)

[disgruntella]

65. sorry - i guess this is my first thread "hijack"

I am glad you posted the link to the quote. I had seen so many references to it, I certainly didn't think you were a liar. And it must have been annoying to get that PM.

I am being honest when I say I don't understand why they expect politicians to mirror their own anger. I know I'm being a bit of a smart ass about it. That's just my natural form of argument sometimes.

Have a good evening.

[0rganism]

69. Sorry 'bout that

Just for the record, I rather like raspberries -- especially as an ice cream topping.

[disgruntella]

72. yeah, me too!

Can we end this thread with everyone jumping into a big bowl of raspberries and cream? (Or should I head toward the lounge for that sort of thing)

:grouphug:

[Maddy McCall]

71. Well it all goes back to my original post on this thread...

that GDF has turned into a free-for-all, and i wish we could be more supportive or Democrats as a whole, instead of ripping each other up.

That is my only point, and I apologize for taking my anger out on you about the present state of GDF. I would be pissed too if someone called me a liar through PM, and I see why you needed the link.

After reading this post, I see that your intention was to prove that you weren't lying to the PMer. Please accept my apology...we have never disagreed on any other issue. :-)

[seventhson]

86. It has always been a free for all -- except for the freepers and neocons

I think the debate is healthy.

By the way -- I do NOT see how my posts on Kerry can hurt him in the general election or used by Rove et al.

Rove will not use "Kerry is a sucjup to Bush and is in Skull" to hurt Kerry/

Rove may call him a hypocrite and a liar and Kerry's FAKE medals thing makes Gore's internet and love story "gaffs" look like nothing.

But my pointing out those tyhings is a position from the LEFT proveteran pov and NOT from the Rove perspective

[Maddy McCall]

91. Not a Dem vs. Dem free-for-all, it hasn't

Debate is healthy. Debate is not hurling insults and inuendo.

What is going on these days in DU was NOT going on when I joined. What is going on in DU these days is detrimental to Democrats, because it shows just how "cohesive" we are.

Rove may not come to the website, but Republicans who are teetering might, and if they see some of the crap that is being put here about our OWN candidates, they might just decide to stick to Bush.

But more than that, it is a morale buster to people like me who would like to discuss candidates' stances, but don't want to become sucked into the downward spiral into which such "debates" usually devolve.

[Rowdyboy]

81. Eloriel, please, tell me why you don't disable pm's....

When I see that someone allows me to pm them, I assume its because they want to receive pms. All you need to do is disable it-takes 5 seconds. I don't understand...(but I certainly won't pm you to ask more indepth questions!)

The reason I care is that I sent you a pm once and I certainly did not mean to offend. Etiquette here is sometimes hard to understand.

[Eloriel]

95. I don't disable them because

I have received valuable and important PMs from various people and wouldn't want to not receive those. The one I mentioned is one of only maybe two ugly ones I've ever received.

I don't get annoyed with people who PM me, so you're off the hook. ;-) I just don't want to carry on extended conversations via PM. If you or anyone has a question or comment that they don't feel comfortable posting to a thread, I'd sooner get the PM than not -- unless, of course, they want to call me a LIAR. :evilgrin:

You're find, Rowdyboy, and so are almost all the other people who've ever PMd me.

Eloriel

[sattahipdeep]

96. Raspberries?

Don't bite your tongue off with that entirely adult behavior.

[DemBones DemBones]

87. You, Eloriel, have publicly accused me of lying on two separate

occasions. On both occasions I have asked you to show proof that I lied and not to make such statements about me again. Both times, I received no reply.

Perhaps you'd care to address this now that someone has accused you -- privately, I might add -- of lying and you are posting publicly about it.

[Eloriel]

98. Well, it's like this.

Most important -- I spend way too much time defending Dean on DU, and so to cut down on that, and also because I do have other things in my life to attend to every now and then, I may not always get BACK to threads.

If I accused you of lying, it was probably because you were posting things about DU that have been debunked with actual facts, his own words, etc., etc.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: I don't mind criticisms of ANY candidate if they are based on facts, accurate representations of their words or actions, etc. But I absolutely despise it when ANY candidate -- even those I do not support -- get their positions, words, etc., mischaracterized and at time purposely lied about. I even defended Kerry the other day over someone's comment about his medals which I thought was entirely off-base and unfair. I've defended Kucinich in the past over mischaracterizations or other untrue statements. Hell, I'd defend Lieberman if I ran across same. I try not to spend much time on other candidates' threads, so I do less of that "defending against lies and mischaracterizations" than I could, but I do do it.

And I'll certainly call people on their distortions, mischaracterizations, and lies about Dean, too.

Eloriel

[DemBones DemBones]

100. Hear this: I do not lie.

Your not liking a message does not make it untrue. You owe me an apology, particularly when you come in here being self-righteous about this PM.

You have made false accusations about me twice. This is your cease and desist notice.

[TheYellowDog]

101. I'm the one who accused her of distorting the truth,

because she did. She initially told me that Kerry had said that he liked Bush. This was much different from what Kerry actually said and I'm watching her backpedal right now. :shrug:

[DemBones DemBones]

106. Kerry's statement only said to me that he was upholding the

political tradition of being reasonably polite about each other and criticizing policies rather than personalities. Kerry certainly suggested that Dubya's down-home image was a fraud, reminded everyone that he knew him in college. The part about being a "good guy trying to do good things" (or whatever the exact wording was) should be noted to contain the key word "trying," which implies failing. As in "Poor thing, he means well."

[DemBones DemBones]

111. You do seem to find it difficult to get back to threads when

you've been called on your assertions.

That's pretty revealing to me.

[angka]

102. i am so goddamn tired of kerrylover hair-splitting

and i'm really sorry that he can't have it both ways. these people need to accept a simple truth, which is their their boy kerry voted for the iraq war. not to 'threaten to use force', not 'for a set of actions based on conditions,' but for a war that we were demonstrably lied into and is now killing and maiming dozens of americans (not to mention hundreds of iraqis) every week. the international community is disgusted with us because of our defiance of international convention, and kerry's vote is what gave bush the legitimacy he needed to fucking do it.

kerry bought into the iraq war lie—everybody knows it, and his present backpedalling is not helping him.

here's a new slogan for you: "dean is clean on the big lie"

[OrdinaryTa]

105. Kerry In Context

John Kerry's early departure from Vietnam suggests that strings were pulled to get him back safe. Although healthy and able-bodied, Kerry returned from combat duty in only a third of the usual tour. The apparent context of Kerry's actions are that (a) the war was nasty; and (b) a fellow could get hurt.

Some actions speak for themselves. If Kerry is positioning himself as a war hero, why did he bug out so quickly? That doesn't strike me as heroic! He gives the impression that he left early because of his connections. How like George Bush and Dan Quayle, inter alia.

[DemBones DemBones]

107. But remember that Kerry is

the only candidate who served in combat, the only one who served in Viet Nam. It seems to me that saying a decorated war veteran like Kerry is not "heroic" is like the Bushistas painting another Viet Nam vet, Max Cleland, as "not patriotic enough."

I don't know if it's true that he got out early since I've not seen any sources for that assertion, just the assertion. I would like to know details.. Have you got a link?

[DemBones DemBones]

109. If anybody splits hairs, it's the Dean camp.

And if Dean can "have it both ways" on his words and actions, why can't Kerry?

Slogan:

"A Vote for Dean is a Vote for Small Lies and Equivocation!"


OR, how about this: We hold ALL of their feet to the fire and criticize any deviation from truth, any waffling, any equivocation from any candidate? We don't argue that when our guy said what he said that he didn't mean what he said. We look for the truth about each candidate instead of being uncritically loyal to any of them. I'm pretty sure none of them is the Secong Coming of Christ.

[XanaDUer]

114. Or,

"A Vote For Dean is a Vote for the Status Quo!"

lc

[ibegurpard]

115. She didn't lie

From the portion of transcript posted above:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=294998&mesg_id=295171&page=
:SEN. KERRY: I believe that President Bush is a very likable fellow, and I respect—I think he’s a good man who wants to do good things."

You can arguably accuse her of taking it out of context or interpreting it differently than someone else might but there are the words that came straight from Senator Kerry's mouth. Anyone who denies that he said it with the proof staring them straight in the face is full of shit.

[blm]

119. He said something like that. It was a throw away line

that actually set up his next statement, that Bush hadn't changed since college, which was actually a backhanded slap.

[newyawker99]

120. I am locking this thread.

There were too many personal attacks and it has turned into flamebait.


NYer99
DU Moderator