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I'm Starting to Just Not Care Anymore - I'm Just All Cared Out

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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:06 AM
Original message
I'm Starting to Just Not Care Anymore - I'm Just All Cared Out
I have quit watching the News where I used to watch it all the time. I don't feel like anything I do will make any difference so why even try.

We have lost Congress

We have lost the Judiciary

We have lost the law

We have lost our right to religion.

And I posted how I felt here and promptly got checked out by the CIA or the FBI. Fortunately, I probably have the most boring record in history.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Add that we have lost our democracy to fascism.n/t
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe the others,
but how have we lost our right to religion??
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jgardner Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. As a non-christian American,
I am feeling less and less welcome and free to express my views.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I'm a Christian American and I feel the same. I guess I'm the wrong kind
of Christian. You know the kind that says, to help the poor, help cure the sick and accept all people. I can't be the kind who wants to lead a crusade of death against brown people, gay people and all other religions that I don't follow. Plus I'm a feminist and that's a BIG no no for the fundies. :grr:
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Excuse me, but the Christian church is NOT involved in Charity.
They are too busy with political activism, and justifying racial wars to gain mineral wealth.

Also, they only recieved 2.2 Billion dollars of our tax money through "faith based iniatives" in 2004. There will be over 40 Billion available in 2005. All this money is without any accountablility.

I feel that any donation to a Christian church today would only buy assult weapons for the KKK.

I used to call myself a "Christian" but I refuse to do so any more. I will not be associated with those thugs any longer.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. That's painting with
a pretty broad brush.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
43. You are right.
I was a little pissed off due to recent contact with a couple fundies. Sorry.
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Sincity Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
51. I agree....very broad brush
Who is stopping anyone from worshipping?
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
58. But the shoe fits...
...wear it
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. I'm afraid not.
There is no restriction on freedom of religion in the USA. Try a Muslim country if you want to see what restrictions on freedom of religion really look like. Hyperbole does our side no good.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
88. Get the hell away from my foot with your f*cking shoe horn
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:52 AM by Cheswick2.0
thank you
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. I'm a self practicing Christian, I don't need a preacher, priest, minister
or whatever telling me how to vote, think, care, love or even hate and some do allot of hating. I don't want to live in a Theocracy, and I believe in separation of church and state. I also believe in a womans right to choose.
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Kitka Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. As a non-Christian who regularly works with Catholic charities....
that's bullshit. You're way overgeneralizing.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
44. Actually,
I do dontate food to a local Pantry that is run by the Catholic Church.

I am just frustrated with the "Christian" input into recent world affairs. We have "Jesus" radio here, and their programming is sickening. They were a 24-7 campaign tool for the republicans, and if it was a smear on liberals or Kerry, then it was their headline news.

You must admit that the level of conservative political activism from the pulpit at a pretty high level. A Cardinal publicly states that it is a sin to vote for Kerry?

"Faith based initiates" will also come around to bite everyone in the arse as well. We have several new Christian "schools" which are funded with tax money, and they are really on the hard-core side of religion.

My post was far too overgeneralizing to be true. It was more the result of my frustrations with this new moralization. I do not believe that I have met a single Christian in person who does not whole hardedly believe in, and support the war in Iraq.

There is something very wrong with this picture. I tried the brightness knob, and it did not work either

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Ironpost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
55. I'm with you
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Its a strange time when Methodists, Presbyterians Lutherans
and other main stream churches have become the radical fringe.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
63. Hopefully, most are not.
But I do believe that there has been a tremendous turn toward the radical conservative right among religious groups during the past 4 years. Maybe most of the newly-converted do not understand where the religion of conservative intolerance is headed.

Here is a couple links that illustrate the origins of current religious / political issues.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/identity.html

It would be reassuring if there was some religious opposition to the neo-con view. The truth is that there has been almost none.

Every letter I read to the editor where the author identifies themselves as a Christian also cites strong support for the war in Iraq, and the "moral" agenda of the bushites.


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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
100. Take Lutherans off the list
I've been WELS, ELCA and Missouri Synod. Aside from some rabid anti-choice folks in the WELS synod (who did NOT represent a majority IMHO), most Lutherans I encountered were solid, down to earth, generous folks. I suspect that Methodists and Presbyterians will join in my protest, although I can't speak for them.

Try not to overgeneralize here.
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woodsprite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #100
119. I'm Presbyterian
and the two to three churches I'm affiliated with, and the one church I belong to could be labeled "Blue" churches :)

Now my inlaws, on the other hand, belong to a interdenominational "red" church. A few years ago, they used to be presby, like us. Since joining that church, all of a sudden, our Baptism doesn't count and they have a real "holier than everyone" attitude, they all voted red since that's what their minister said to do. They don't have Sunday school teachers, they instead have large rooms where they play Dobson video tapes. I consider churches like their's more of a "cult". Other strange things, but we won't go there. People seem nice in a "Stepford Wife" sort of way. Will we ever go there, even just to visit -- not if you paid me a million dollars!

I look at it as the kids-in-law are biting back -- my church is JUST FINE for my family, then there's my BIL who is Catholic (not acceptable in MILs eyes), and my SIL who is Wiccan. Diverse family :)
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
60. You may be the "wrong" type of Christian to some,
but you are the "right" type to me.

I am sorry that I posted such a stupid response to yours. It is so rare to find someone who identifies themselves as a "Christian" who is different than the conservative fundamentalist type.

It is very refreshing to hear believers set a boundary between themselves and the dogs that have hijacked what was once a non-violent and tolerant religion.

again, my apologies.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
106. many of us here at DU have done just that..
frequently. Unfortunately, it gets lost in the noise.
Jesus was the ultimate liberal, and there are many liberal christians, like myself.
RW christians have turned a blind eye to Christ's teachings, for some reason. I understand how that frustrates people, because it frustrates me as well, but it's a mistake to paint all christians with the fundi brush.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. I agree!
Edited on Mon Jan-10-05 04:26 PM by TWiley
In truth, Jesus was the ultimate Liberal. Unfortunately, he is painted today as a conservative republican who supports the arms race, the war in Iraq, hates fags, opposes all social programs, and who is a person who would golf with the scribes and Pharisees.

In the book Revelations, in the part where the 7 churches are addressed, Christ talks about his "church with a new name".

Maybe it is time to abandon the "Christian" label to the war-mongers, and create a new banner under which the non-violent Christ-like people can gather.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Nonsense.
How many non-christians are in jail for that crime? That's all that freedom means. It doesn't mean that other people have to consider your feelings when expressing their own views about religion.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. This is true. However,
non-Christians in America have been denied jobs on the basis of their religion, while no Christian ever has. It doesn't happen often, fortunately, but now that the Fundamentalists are in charge, I predict we'll be seeing it more and more. An example is the Wiccan schoolteacher in North Carolina a few years ago who was fired because she had a Web site devoted to her religion that her students could access.

Freedom of religion, as outlined in the Constitution, means that the secular law of the land will not be determined by a particular religious belief. When Operation Rescue redefines abortion as "murder" based solely on their interpretation of the Bible, and then lobbies to get the laws rewritten to meet that definition, that constitutes "making a law establishing religion". Setting up a State Church doesn't require legislation stating "everyone will now be Methodist"; all it requires is for the laws to reflect the beliefs of Methodism.

This interpretation, as I have presented it, has been upheld by every single Supreme Court that ever heard a case, including the current Rehnquist Court, which ruled a couple of years ago against open prayer before high school football games. The mere imposition of religious ritual against the will of non-believers is enough to render a law unconstitutional.

Christians in our country seem to have a very difficult time understanding these simple things.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. Do you think it
would be different if Muslims were in charge, or Wiccans. Israel shows how religion is important when the Jews are in charge. Naturally the majority culture, like the minority cultures, prefers its own. It has always been thus.

Also, I don't know that you can make such a blanket statement that no Christian has ever been denied a job because of his religion. What about the woman in Florida about a year ago that was fired for eating ham sandwiches in a Muslim owned office of some kind? I have had friends from Utah, good Baptists and Catholics, who told me that if you weren't a Mormon there, your chances of advancement were slim.

Arguments against abortion can be made from a totally secular viewpoint, also. Even if the original impetus for developing them were religious, so what? All people's ideas of good policy is colored by their world-view, and religion is a big part of that. What counts is how effective and benevolent a policy is. Not if the original idea was religious, or even if the wrong people make money off of it.

"Law establishing religion" refers to a state Church, nothing else. check the histories.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #48
71. I did check the histories. I read the Court decisions.
And the Court agrees with my interpretation. :shrug:

That's why the radicals are trying to pack the courts, so that they can reverse the precedents.

And why was that Christian eating a ham sandwich in a Muslim company? Would she have done that in a Jewish firm? Sounds to me like she provoked an incident--especially since your description is significantly in the plural, as in doing it several times. That's not the same as simply being fired for being a Christian. After all, she wasn't denied the job in the first place, so her firing wasn't based on pure prejudice.

As to your first question, it's irrelevant. The situation is not that Wiccans are in charge of America, but that Christians are. That's not going to change. So speculating on what a Wiccan nation might be like is a waste of time. And using such a hypothetical in this discussion is merely an attempt to sidestep the issue.
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Are You An Evangelical? That has become the State Religion
And what is so wierd about that is that the early Xtian Church had to fight really hard to separate from the State.

Anyway, I'm not Evangelical and will never be.

I go to Mass most mornings and you know, it makes me feel better. It is a good way to start my day.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Nonsense.
There is no state religion in the United States. There may be a large cultural compenent of Americans that is Evangelical, but thatis not a state religion.
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. not yet - just wait
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Well, until then
maybe you shouldn't make any claims that there already is???
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
39. The faith-based initiative has the potential of becoming
forced tithing to the Christian Church. I've been trying to research how much of the $1.7 billion was given to non-Christian organizations, but I can't find a distribution breakdown, even on the WH site. I have a cynical suspicion that not much money is going to Buddhists, Muslims and Jews, and that absolutely none will be given to Wiccans or other pagan groups. The response of Jim Towey, the WH administrator of the program, to such a question is about what I would expect from these bigots:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/ask/20031126.html

"Colby, from Centralia MO writes:
Do you feel that Pagan faith based groups should be given the same considerations as any other group that seeks aid?

Jim Towey
I haven't run into a pagan faith-based group yet, much less a pagan group that cares for the poor! Once you make it clear to any applicant that public money must go to public purposes and can't be used to promote ideology, the fringe groups lose interest. Helping the poor is tough work and only those with loving hearts seem drawn to it."

There may not be a State Religion made up of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, but IMO the basis for it is there, in the opinions of such "believers" towards others.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. Well, organize
a pagan based group that can follow the rules about ideology and apply and find out for sure.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
72. Your prejudice is showing.
"A pagan group that can follow the rules."

That's exactly what Towey said.

Give me a break. :eyes:
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Soorry, it wasn't
meant to be prejudicial. Some people are soooo sensitive. Just form the group, find out.

I find there is a lot of anti-Christian prejudice. My thought is that Christianity is as entitled to pprotection as any other religious group. It doesn't matter is we agree or disagree with thier ideas.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. The groups exist already.
You never hear about them, because they are simply doing the work instead of broadcasting their goodness to the world.

Pagans don't proselytize. So the great fear Christianity has of us is, of course, utterly unwarranted. And we know how to obey the rules--something the Christians running this administration would do well to learn.

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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
59. Wanna bet?
The Jesusistas have imposed Christianity as the state religion.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Well, seeing as how
"nonsense" doesn't ring with you, try this one: ridiculous. There is NO state religion in the USA. None, nada, zilch. State religion implies the government. Now I will admit that the majority of AMericans are Christians. But So what??

When your tax dollars are paying the salaries of preachers, then you can say you have a state religion.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. What about "faith based initiatives?"
My taxpayer money in 2004 .... 2.2 BILLION dollars taxpayer dollars (not just Christian dollars) were given to religious outfits. There is little to no accountability for these funds. This is the program that did not get support in either house but became law when bush acted alone through presidential mandate.

In my area, TAXPAYER MONEY is being used to fund new "Christian Schools" which draw the hard conservative fundamentalist line. This is under the "Voucher Program" that was voted down by every state in the union but mandated into reality by bush.

There are but a few examples. Can you at least admit the possibility of a new "state authorized" (through affiliation) religious enterprise?

All of which is being MANDATED by a BORN-AGAIN-CHRISTIAN in the total absence of popular support as expressed by the vote.

well?
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Well
<<My taxpayer money in 2004 .... 2.2 BILLION dollars taxpayer dollars (not just Christian dollars) were given to religious outfits. There is little to no accountability for these funds. This is the program that did not get support in either house but became law when bush acted alone through presidential mandate.

Well, I am not especially happy with that, but as I understand it, all faiths are eligible. So You cannot really say it is a state-sponsored religion. also, as I understand it, the money cannot be used to proselytize. I stand open to correction on this point.

<<In my area, TAXPAYER MONEY is being used to fund new "Christian Schools" which draw the hard conservative fundamentalist line. This is under the "Voucher Program" that was voted down by every state in the union but mandated into reality by bush.

Again, can Muslim, Buddhist, or Jewish schools qualify? If so, I do not see that it qualifies a state sponsored religion. especially if "atheist" schools are also eligible.

Frankly, here, I think the public education system is broken, and I support experiments to fix it. I do not know what will work best, but I do know something has to be done. American children, especially minorities are being cheated out of a life of the mind, and the basic education that will allow them to support themselves in life.

<<There are but a few examples. Can you at least admit the possibility of a new "state authorized" (through affiliation) religious enterprise?

No, a religious enterprise does not need state authorization. I see no reason why they shouldn't, on a equal basis with secular enterprises, be allowed to operate charitable activities with equal access to government funds.

<<All of which is being MANDATED by a BORN-AGAIN-CHRISTIAN in the total absence of popular support as expressed by the vote.

Well, if the American people really object, these programs will be eliminated. I'm sure you're doing your part. I neither support nor object to these programs, at the current time, so I'm just going to lie back and wait to see if they work.

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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #67
76. The public education system, like Social Security, is not broken.
It is sorely lacking in funds, and doesn't offer enough incentive wages to attract promising new teachers. I guarantee that, if money were spent to renovate buildings, improve the textbooks, and pay teachers what they are really worth, the American school system would be the best in the world.

*'s answer is to continue taking money away and throw it at religious institutions. This answer is wrong. His faith-based charity answer is wrong, too.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. I've got to
disagree with you. The education system has money. It doesn't teach. Otherwise, how do we get so many people who voted wrong??
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. You've got to be kidding.
That's the only thing I can come up with to explain such a ludicrous statement.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. BTW, the NEA doesn't see things the way you do.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #78
93. This was a right wing talking point
even before the 2000 election. Conservative Hot-Air bags like limbaugh were complaining that the "department of education" never taught a single student, and therefore should be dismantled.

This idea was then broadened to include all public schools which then came under Conservative Republican attack.

The result was the "no child left behind act" mandated by bushturd. A story just broke today in the newspapers that cited proof that the bush administration paid $240,000 to a journalist to promote the initiative in his syndicated columns. He did so tirelessly over the past several years.

This is only another example of the bush republicans illegally using taxpayer money to push its religious agenda under the disguise of responsible "journalism"

The result is that the public school system has been gutted, and the neo-christian fascists are pouring taxpayer money into the void they alone created, which funds the creation of religiously based schools.

And, "there were not that many people who voted wrong" Most of this stuff, like religious vouchers, was voted down in every state where it was placed on the ballot. This atrocity received the breath of life through presidential mandate with the odious intent of establishing a broader religiously (christian) based education system in America.

As far as "so many people who really did wrong" goes, I assume that we can safely count yourself in those numbers. So, examine your own position in the light of fact and explain to us how you went wrong.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. P.S.
40 BILLION of our taxpayer (and not just christian) dollars is available to Christian Groups in 2005.

and yes, this money is paying the saleries of preachers.

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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. Tell that to General "America is a Christian Nation" Boykin!
Tell that to Jim Imhoffe!
Tell that to Rick Santorum!
Tell that to Mike De Wine!
Tell that to Saxby Chambliss!
Tell that to David Ritter!
Tell that to Tom Coburn!
Tell that to George Allen!
and their ilk ALL of those assholes say that America is a Christian nation and ALL of them, including assholes such as Joe Liberman are putting as many preachers as they can on the Federal Government Gravy Train. The same time the preachers are getting their fat asses on the train, the needy are cast off to fend for themselves in the great time tested Christian tradition as redacted by Ayn (as in mine) Rand!

Once upon a time, the Republican Party promised you a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage. Now they promise preachers Beef Wellington on their dinner plates, BMWs in their garages and unlimited amounts in preachers Swiss Bank accounts.

As for everyone else, they get cheneyed...
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Culturally, not
legally, America IS a Christian nation with over 85% being at least nominal Christians.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #70
77. America is a nation ruled by secular law,
85% of whose population happens to claim to be Christian.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Didn't i
say that? I thought that I had.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. No, you didn't.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #81
90. "Culturally,
not legally" seems to me to mean exactly the same thing.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. But, you use the term "culturally
as the equivalent of legally. Otherwise your argument would have no merit.

The fact is that only 30% of the 10 so-called "commandments are evident in our laws. These are laws concerning Murder, Theft, and False Witness.

The other 70% receive no consideration.

So, if you claim that we are a nation made of 85% christians (which is dead wrong) then why have the other 70% of the commandments not imposed their ugly face upon our laws? It seems to me that an 85% majority should be able to legislate what it wishes.

Furthermore, the 30% of the commandments which are evident in our laws are also evident in the laws of every civilized nation, weather they are christian or not.

So how does "culturally" mean anything? You only attempt to put an = sign between the two words, and then duck into cover when it is correctly pointed out that you are wrong.

This argument is also a remnant of an old right wing talking point of the late 1990's when fundamentalists began their "take back america" campaign.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. You make no sense;
you assume facts not in evidence, your logic is faulty.

"Culturally" does not mean "legally"; nor did I use it in that fashion.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #95
109. uh, it is YOU that makes no sense,
You state Culturally does not mean legally, and then you state "culturally we are a christian nation"

Then you cite a bullshit statistic "85% of Americans" are christians. Clearly, you feel that "Culturally" carries the same weight as "legally". Otherwise, you would not have compared / contrasted these two terms.

So, my nascent student of logic, if your argument is correct, then where is the evidence of this huge majority? It is certainly NOT in our laws now is it.

Certainly an 85% majority would be able to legislate anything they desired in a voting democracy. Why have they not done so? Why are 70% of the so-called "commandments" absent from our laws"

Why is it that the 30% of the "commandments" which are evident are also evident in the laws of all civilized nations, christian, Muslum, Hindu, Buddist, or whatever?

Apparently, the majority of the 85% of "so called christians" in your statistical analysis are opposed to a "christian theocracy".

This is also evidenced by the fact that the "religious school voucher program" was voted down in every state where it was placed on the ballot. This program (like the faith-based-initiatives program) came into reality through presidential MANDATE, and not through the expressed desires of the voting public.

It is factual to say that there is a born-again christian man in the white house who is imposing his religious beliefs on the nation through mandate.

At what point does "presidential mandate" cross the line of creating a state sanctioned religion? Or, do you feel that this line can only be crossed by a voting majority? A majority that you claim is 85%.

Your argument consists of right wing talking points. Nothing more. It is the logic used by the fundamentalists in the 90's when they began prosecuting the "Take back America" campaign.



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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. I hardly know how to respond to so many lies.
What is the correct Percentage of, at least nominal, Christians? Why do the vast Christian majority have to have such a great influence in passing 'Christian" laws. Legally we do have a secular government.

Clearly, you feel that "Culturally" carries the same weight as "legally". Otherwise, you would not have compared / contrasted these two terms.

Obviously, since the plain sense of words do not mean anything to you, you must have a license to practice long-range mind reading. Scan a copy and post it to me, or refrain from telling me what I really mean.


:eyes:
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #111
115. Lies? Why not stick to the discussion and leave the character
attacks out.

Evidently, you feel that 85% of our population is christian, and that it is significant somehow.

What does that statistic mean to you? Clarify it.

You might as well say that 85% of our nation are sports fans. To make a statement like this is the logical equivalent of the one you made. It has no relevance as each fan may support any one of a variety of teams or sports.

Maybe you feel that America's violent crime rate, its horrendous drug and alcohol problems, statistically statistically being among the highest in divorce, suicide, and spousal abuse, child abuse,the highest % of illiteracy among western industrialized nations, its long history of racial genocide, discrimination against groups of its people, and a tenacious appetite for greedy self-righteousness as being the evidence of a "culturally christian" nation.

If so, then I may tend to agree
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. We are not Christian "culturally".
That's why I specifically used the term "claim to be Christian". We aren't Christian in reality.

Your figures are off, btw. The most comprehensive survey ever taken on religion in the US, a year-long study conducted by the Christian Science Monitor in 2003, indicates that only about 70% of Americans even make that claim.

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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #96
112. OK,
I stand ccorrected. 70% it is.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #70
84. "America IS a Christian nation"
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:43 AM by Sterling
I think you are confusing "Christian nation" with nation in which a lot of Christians live. There is a huge difference, try not to make the same mistake again plz.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. I think
that I am confusing nothing. The nation is the people, not the state.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. You are confusing the terms.
There is a huge difference between "a Christian nation" and "a nation of Christians".

Madison, btw, distinctly stated that we are not a Christian nation, and since he wrote the Constitution, I tend to believe him over you.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #97
113. I think not n/t
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. Then you think wrong.
Due to the underfunding and neglect of the public school system, critical thinking skills are dreadfully nonexistent in America. Also, the continued degradation of the English language--both through the influence of undereducated "street usage" and the deliberate "Newspeakification" that our government engages in--makes it difficult for people to recognize the nuances of the language. So I'm not surprised that you see no difference in the two statements.

Thus:

"A Christian nation" means one that is based on Christian principles and ideals, and which officially seeks to project and follow those ideals as part of its fundamental operation. One ascertains this definition by noting that the adjective directly modifies the noun.

"A nation of Christians" simply means that a majority of the populace embraces that particular religion. It does not indicate, in any way whatsoever, what the fundamental principles of that nation may be; it merely is descriptive. One comes to this conclusion by noting that the noun is modified by a subordinate clause.

Radical Christians use the confusion inherent in these terms as a means of propagandizing and furthering their agenda.

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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. I understand what you are saying,
I simply disagree.

Peace.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Facts are facts. Believe what you want. n/t
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Your opinion
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 05:01 PM by forgethell
does not qualify as a fact. We have a disagreement in terminology. Your idea is no more "correct" than mine.

You are trying to "frame" the debate to my disadvantage, while I am resisting that and trying to frame it to mine.

But until we can agree on a terminology, all discussion is futile.

"Believe what you want". But reality keeps hitting you in the face.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #123
124. My observation is based on the syntax and grammar of the English language.
You may choose to alter your definitions of words and phrases as you go along, but that choice is the only thing here that constitutes "opinion".

I am working off of facts, the facts of how the language works and what it means.

Madison (who wrote the Constitution) stated outright that we are not a Christian nation (Treaty of Tripoli). He put it in that same phrase you are using--a Christian nation--because he knew what that phrase meant. He also knew that the vast majority of Americans at that time, as today, were Christians.

You, OTOH, are using the words the same way the religious right does, in their efforts to impose their agenda. I've had this same argument with them countless times, and it always--always--ends the way you just ended it: With their accusing me of working strictly off of opinion. They do this because they have no other way of winning the argument.

Words have meanings. The Founders stated the same thing I am saying. The Supreme Court has upheld this definition for the 65 years that they have been hearing cases regarding it. My facts are correct, otherwise you would refute them. :)

I'm done here. Take the last word, if you wish.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #69
83. And get In god we trust off the money.
It must be incredibly offensive to "God" that his name is attached to the root of all evil.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. Money is NOT the root of all evil
1 Timothy 6:10
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #62
75. The first $500,000
of *'s faith initiative went to Pat Robertson's terrorist-funding Pentacostal organization. You can bet much of it found its way into his personal pockets, based on how he has run his scam for the past 20 years. And since all charities pay their administrators out of the donations they receive, it follows that my tax dollars are paying the pastors' salaries.

Slice it and dice it how you like, "faith based" = enforced tithing.
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rkc3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. Mary, you might enjoy my New Year's Resolution
I intend to be more close-minded and less tolerant of others.

So far it is working. I've found fewer people stop by to tell me how miserable they are (since I started asking them what the common thread among all their problems was - their stupidity).

Actually, my liberal friends are having fun with it. The RW nutties are put off by my new attitude.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. That's intriguing
But I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. Give me an example.

Honestly, I haven't talked to a Republican about politics since Nov 2nd, and I really don't have the desire to ever again. It's like talking to a Ann Coulter doll with a pull string.
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rkc3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. My comments are mostly sarcastic. But if you take a look at the
50 million plus who voted for the chimp they exhibit these same traits - No tolerance for those not like them and a very closed mind.

Taking their approach is my way of pissing off repubs who want to come in and shoot the shit about politics.
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. You must not live in Bible Land?
Its like they all just decided to take a step back a few hundred year's in time.

And in some ways I can understand it. We really need to do something about individual loneliness in this country. So many people have become so isolated and lonely and that makes them very susceptible to these kooky ideas.

But turning back the clock isn't the answer.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
85. I can't stop them from ruining the world but I can make fun off them
to their face and make expose their idiotic opinions as the childish bullshit the are.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
6. I understand exactly how you're feeling
Unfortunately I can't offer any advice except to wash your hands clean of any responsibility (It's the only way I can cope with it). Most of us did everything in our power to stop this American tsunami, and lost only because the people in power are dishonest criminals who set up a rigged game.
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. We've had dishonest govts. before this one - in fact they are
all probably pretty dishonest. But at least we had our Constitution and now I feel like that piece of paper is meaningless.

Power is now the law of the land.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
87. Yes but the dishonest ones are leading both parties at this point.
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:51 AM by Sterling
So I give up. I'm just here to visit with my friends and read the news. Maybe I can get enough of a head start to the bunker by staying up on events but I have nothing left to give in terms of supporting a political party.

From now on I will keep my money and worry about myself and my friends. It's everyman for himself at this point thanks to the people who sold out our party.

How could we be so dumb to run Bush's frat buddy?
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
8. you aren't alone
I feel the same ugly way and wow am I ever in a bad mood. :(

:kick:
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. take a break, then fix your give-a-shitter
Edited on Fri Jan-07-05 11:25 AM by sui generis
it's okay, just take a little break for now, but promise yourself not to give up on the things that are important to you. We're all in this together.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. I was going to say the same thing.
Take a rest, let your care grow back.

If you don't care, Bushco has successfully defeated you.

But it's normal to feel like you need to retreat for a bit.

I certainly do.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
89. "Bushco has successfully defeated you."
No Bush did not take the care from me. That took John Kerry and the DLC.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
101. ROCK ON< SUI...I'm with you.
Now is no time to give up hope.

Did our grandfathers give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Nope.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. yep, mee too
Soo much effort was put into that last fucked up campaign. Bush ads were aired during the most popular shows and sporting events. Kerry ads were aired on the FUCKING GAME SHOW CHANNEL.

I still cannot believe that to this day. Let me say it one more time. THE FUCKING GAME SHOW CHANNEL.

The bush republithugs have attacked every worthwhile democratic institution without any meaningful response. What few voices were out there were deafened by the cheers of church people.

I am all worn out too
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Palacsinta Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
14. Feel much the same.....
Listening to the Dems yesterday at the Gonzalez hearing.........same old crap. They bring up EGREGIOUS examples of unconstitutional behavior, rant and rave, blah blah, we all hear it........then NOTHING! He'll be confirmed and we'll move on to the next confirmation hearing. The Dems will rant and rave, yadda yadda.

Hard to care anymore.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'm just here for the beer
and I don't drink. I know how you feel, i just want to throw my hands in the air and say forget it, just let me go to sleep until this is over.
I'm not rip van though, and I fully expect to be among the first whose neck the axe falls on.
I'm a disabled liberal democrat, very active and outspoken, a nice ripe low hanging plum and really don't know if I'm going to last out the year.
My wife doesn't know how scared I am, even though I've told her that things are going to be very different in just a few months from now.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. Not Watching The News Is A "Good" Thing
it's all lies and propaganda anyway. They way they are intimidated by Bush, Rove, Inc. is nauseating. They don't deserve liberal viewers. It's a good thing as Martha would say.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. I feel similarly, although I would express my state as "without hope".
It's difficult to watch the things that are taking place in the world and to feel good in spite of it all. It seems that every day brings another blow to humanity, to compassion, to goodness and to life. Happiness, of the sort I used to believe in, is pretty much lost to me anymore. My determination since Nov 2 has been therefore to focus my attention on those things I can do: Give a few dollars to someone who needs it, boycott Republican companies and most large corporations in general, treat everyone I meet with respect, simplify my life where I can. IOWs, I will live my life according to my values, regardless of what the godless are doing.

My religion provides me with a specific goal for such a focus, which helps me to concentrate and maintain balance. But I no longer have hope that my actions--spiritual or mundane--will change anything much beyond my immediate circle of existence. Still, I can change that much--so I will.
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. Agree somewhat. Have also stopped watching new as much
as I did before. I just feel what's the point. But I do have to keep up with current happenings. Having said that, I will continue to do what I can to prevent this wonderful country of ours becoming a Fascist dictatorship. When the people stop caring, that's when all is lost.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ok, this might sound corny but
the darkest hour is just before dawn.
NEVER GIVE UP!!!
Take a break, yes, stop watching the propaganda, etc. but NEVER GIVE UP!
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
102. THANK YOU, ONIONPATCH
ROCK ON!

IT'S NOT TIME TO GIVE UP!

REMEMBER, EVEN IF THE ELECTION WAS LEGIT, KERRY GOT MORE VOTES THAN ANY OTHER CANDIDATE IN US HISTORY BESIDES BUSH.

WE ARE NOT SMALL, WE ARE NOT DEFEATED, WE ARE NOT MARGINALIZED.

WE ARE RESURGENT.
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
26. "Outrage Fatigue"
One can only spend so much emotional capital before burning out. Take a well needed rest and come out swinging.
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PhuLoi Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. I have completed the Kubler-Ross sequence followed by the
"spouse/relative of an addict/alchoholic" concept, where I view about half the population (those who believe the repukes) as heading for the rock bottom. Now I wait. Once the poor bastards realize they've been had they will either lift themselves up or die off. Either is fine with me. If it gets too bad at home then I and my little family move out. Corporate News and Right Wing Christianity are the heroine of these junkies, so I don't indulge.
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Please don't call it Xianity - its not really - its more like the
things a cult would believe in. The end of the world, rapture, wanting to control everything and everybody.

I don't think people lucky enough to live in Blue States realize how bad it can be. These people decided to take over the Kansas School Board and they did. They simply don't mention to anyone that they are severely right wing.

Look at the far right leaders. They are all just hateful people. But very big on power and control. Bush thought he was using them. But he was wrong. They were using him.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. Don't think it's just the red states.
The man who started the whole modern Creationist movement, Duane Gish, is headquartered at the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego, California--a blue state. About 10 years ago, they infiltrated the school board in that county. Fortunately, the people rose up and threw them out in a referendum. They appealed to the State Board of Education and had them investigated.

Chances of such a victory happening there again are growing slimmer. :(
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
103. As long as you don't get to 'ACCEPTANCE'
Nobody's dead.

Come back fighting.

We can win.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
30. I understand. Its hard to keep your spirits up when you feel helpless.
That's why I'm doing the www.wasjesustortured.com webpage. I got so mad at the NPR story this morning ("Does chopping off a finger constitute torture?") and the IDIOTS who make such discussions necessary, I was ready to scream. But, I'm in the "don't get mad, get effective" camp, so we'll see how many other people have opinions on whether or not Jesus was actually tortured.

Want to help make some phone calls? So far they have all been shocked; its kind of fun! :) Best, Ida
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. You need to sleep
"Sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleeve of care"

It is gonna work out like it will work out. Each of us is only one person. Get some rest to fight another day.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
35. Take a break.

You can't carry on feeling the same way forever, and working through ordinary day to day things while having deeply negative feelings is work. Have a rest. Clear your mind. Stop thinking about it and return to the problem when you feel better.

:-)

xx
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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
37. the fun is just beginning...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1130823

sit back and watch the fun!

How's the weather back there?... m
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. The Weather Sucks - Probably why I am so depressed
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
40. Take a break from politics.
Just follow entertainment or whatever for a while.
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #40
54. I'm trying to take a break.
And it is kind of fun to watch this zoo in operation.

And how did Gonzales manage to sit through six hours of questioning and not say one thing?

That might be better than Ashcroft who always said way too much.
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PompatusOfLove Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
42. Top Ten Reasons to Kill Your Television


1. Lowers blood pressure through avoidance of programming for idiots.

2. Creates enormous amounts of time to spend on better ways to stay informed (like books, alternative magazines and newspapers, and the internet.)

3. Creates enormous amounts of time to spend on better ways to be entertained (like hanging out with friends, working on a hobby, playing with your dog or cat.)

4. Saves space in your home (put a plant or a fishtank where the TV used to be.)

5. Liberates you from a TON of idiot advertising commercials.

6. Forces people to react to you on a different level, since discussions of TV personalities or programs will be impossible for you.

7. Saves money (cable, dish bills.)

8. Saves energy.

9. Clears your mind.

10. Frees your mind.













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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
45. and this matters...how?

I mean that in both a flippant and a profound sense.

Well, we 'needed' all that power because the country as it is is/was something, in its nature, that needed to be fended off, controlled, contained- right?

I prefer to see it this way: the country is tired of Democrats offering halfassed solutions and needs the comprehensive kind somewhere down the line. The Republicans have no solutions to the real problems that face us and no ability to deal with the real challenges of the future, but they're reasonable capable at dealing with the baggage of the past (which Democrats prefer to ignore)- they simple exploit and destroy the baggage.

So as a society we're in the business of filling the present with demolishing the baggage of the past until Democrats really decide to get their sh-t together.


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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
46. I feel the same way
that's why I'm still up in the middle of the night reading and posting. I just can't believe that things have gotten to this point in this country-it all fills me with despair and anxiety.

I know that I can't control any of it or stop it and knowing that makes me feel so utterly and totally powerless. I learned many years ago that the only thing we can really control in life is ourselves. Yet letting go of the outcome of this nightmare and just letting whatever happen happen, makes me feel so lost, sad and afraid. I want to DO something-make a difference! But it seems like there is so little that can be done right now...

Anyway...I like what someone posted that it's always darkest before the dawn...thank you for that. I will take that thought with me now to comfort me, so that I can finally get some sleep.

Peace
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. Don't give up - think about the animals you rescue
they can't fight for themselves - you must do it for them - as I sit here with one of my twenty-some cats on my lap.

Now is the time to fight! Not when everything to going our way.

BTW, how do you know you got checked out?
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. Animals are what keep me sane in times of insanity. They
could give a rip whose president.

Then the ice storm hit and I lost power. That is really hard on a human. The dogs were fine.

How I got checked out? I'd rather not say on a public board. But if you get a strange new e-mail friend I would not say anything except "good morning"
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
50. I warned you all
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
56. You obviously care or you wouldn't be in DU. Don't give up hope.
When Nixon got re-elected it was depressing as hell and then he self-destructed with Watergate. These criminals in charge will show their asses sooner or later.
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MaryH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Does anyone here know how to do spells?
That might be kind of fun to watch. Bush's nose growing with every lie. Or how about one where they all have to tell the truth when they open their mouths? That would be fun.
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BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. Their crimes will come home to roost!
Don't let anyone give up!
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Bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
68. NADER is right ..it must get much worse
before it can get better.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #68
98. I think that's because all the reds who aren't destitute
need to learn what it is to be without the necessities before they will vote in favor of providing them for everyone.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
86. Me too, Mary.
It's all so tiring. We fight. Our congress people don't. Why the hell bother? You can't fight City Hall. They will do what they damn well please and to hell with the people who pay them.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
99. I haven't watched any TV news since November 3.
It feels good. My source for news is the LBN forum and other sites on the internet that act as clearinghouses for top news stories from ALL different media outlets, including NON-US ones, where you tend to get a different perspective, hear about stories you don't hear in the US, and get some facts filled in, instead of two second blurbs.

US media sucks pond scum. Ditch it.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
104. SUCK IT UP...DAMN IT!
We've taken a shot in the eye. Democrats and democracy and the free world and the Iraqis and freedom and liberty and our civil rights and our wealth and prestige in the world....

Damn... It was a big friggin' shot in the eye, and I want to cry, too. Shit, I've got two little girls and a boy on the way and I want to just take them out of the country and live somewhere like New Zealand or Australia or Canada or Mexico or the UK. I mean, I want to live in a free country, too, Okay?

But this is our friggin' country. My family has been here on both sides since before the Revolution (not that there aren't lots of immigrants in the respective woodpiles). We fought on both sides of the civil war and my grandfather got a battlefield commission in the Pacific Theatre.

I'm not leaving. My family's blood is in this soil, and I may not be rich and I may not be 'important' in the scheme of things, but I'm going to suck it up and keep fighting.

And get this straight, too, defeatists and trolls out there. I'm fighting to win. I don't mean fighting hard or dedicated in some damn lost cause, I mean fighting to win and I will win.

But I need the help of all of my fellow dems, because I've got two little girls and I want them to grow up in a free country. That's a promise I made them, you see?

SO SUCK IT UP AND HELP ME, DAMN IT! This is the fight of our lives, and it will require dedication and every ounce of care you can put into it.

PLEASE. I'M BEGGING AND IN TEARS AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BEG.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
105. Mary, upon further reflection, I demand that you care.
See my post above.
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
107. don't ever forget
Don't ever forget where you came from, why people fled to this country. The sacrifices they made against a theocracy for your liberty. They had it much worse than we do. We do hold power, much more than they did. Has anyone read the declaration of independance lately? the constitution? A real good read and fodder for your fight in every point is in James Madison's remonstrance to the virginian commonwealth- that document is why there is seperation of church and state, and its worded in such a way that even the most stout religious cannot deny it. It was written by a man who was a devote christian and a true American. My anscestors moved here in 1722, my mother is a DAR. There are lots of people out there with similar histories, remind them why. Fly the 'Don't Tread on Me" flag and if someone says thats not patriotic, tell them it was the first common flag of the colonies and the first american military flag. Fly it with defiance to the theocracy. Challenge every idiot at every turn- don't go to fucking sleep, if you're in the thick of the fight, then fucking fight. Im sick of the pansy ass attitude, you want to bring them down, then do so. Don't get caught up in semantics- Thats what they want. Remind yourself who you are and how you got here, that the only way things are going to change, and the quicker they change, the less bloody- take that lesson from your anscestors.

-Vermont weighing in
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. THANKS, VERMONT!!
:yourock:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #107
122. Weigh in more often Vermont***
We could use a little more of that pumped up fire and brimstone! The chicken soup I needed today.

We're going to continue helping each other get back up, refocus on moving forward, and keep fighting.

Appreciate what you said.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
114. I'm trying to cut back even listening to Randi and Mike...I love them
Edited on Mon Jan-10-05 11:17 PM by Gloria
to death, but my energy is being sapped.

I'm trying to bake bread, garden, and love my dogs. I do the World Media Watch and even that gets to me sometimes.

But I stink at avoiding all this. I'm a political person and have a conscience. But, we know the Repugs don't have a conscience and I'm doubting the Democrats, esp. when I hear Biden saying Gonzalez is "the real deal" and that "I like you."

Malloy is right...WTF is going on with the Democrats who should be fighting this crap, not enabling it.
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
120. If the CIA is checking you out-you must be doing something right!
But seriously folks, if you lose your sense of humour-you are doomed. Get a hobby. Get off the internet. Grow roses. Play with dogs. Your life is still going to end no matter whose in congress or who is President.

You only have now.

The biggest difference most of us will ever make in anyone's life-is to those closest around us. Your mother, son, husband, friend, old neighbor, dog you are nice to. Saving the world really only happens for a small few. But if you are mean or absent to those closest to you-do you think if Kerry was President then that would mean life was great? No-it's being nice to those around you that matters most. It's easy to take it out on them.

I still have to enjoy my life or you know-"they" have won.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
121. What is sad is most Americans don't care about all that has been lost:
if most Americans don't care, why should any of us, so don't feel bad and beat up on yourself.
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