Corporel punishment . . .

[theboss]

The latest Arnold thread got my attention.

What's everyone's views on corporel punishment (spanking and such) of children by parents. (Not schools or anything like that).

Personally, I don't have a problem with it as long as it is 1) very limited, 2) causes no injury, 3) is for specific, serious offense, and 4) is explained as cause/effect.

I'm just going on my own experiences as a child with two liberal educators for parents. I was hit exactly three times and recall each incident vividly and see why they happened. When I was four, I was spanked for being really really out of control at a family picnic. When I was six, I was smacked by my dad for telling him to "shut up, sucker" in a shoe store. When I was fourteen, my mom basically punched me in the face for telling her to "shut the hell up."

Okay, that last one may have been over the line, but she probably wanted to hit me with a frying pan so I appreciate the restraint in some regards.

They also always talked to me afterwards and explained why it happened and (in the last instance) apologized for losing her temper.

I am childless but have enough friends with kids to wonder if "time-out" alone really works.

So . . .thoughts?

[barbaraann]

1. I'm opposed to corporal punishment for children.

Dr. Phil has some good research on this:

http://www.drphil.com/advice/advice.jhtml?contentId=par_discipline_research.xml§ion=Parenting&subsection=Discipline

And I have to say that I did not spank my son but some of the things I yelled at him in anger may have been worse than spanking, and I wish I could take them back. Raising a child is not simple or easy.

[ComerPerro]

2. I have no kids (college), but

I have felt that spanking had its place. My parents would use it as a reinforcement to other punishment. More than anything else, though, it was a show. The idea of getting spanked was worse than being spanked.

Sure, I'm an undisciplined, drug-using, commies, Devil-worshipping, America-hating liberal who would rather blame America than try to solve any problems, and the only time I get off my ass is to burn an American flag, buy weed, or cash my welfare check. Come to think of it, I'm every incorrect stereotype that the right has about us.

But I think I turned out ok.

[Richardo]

3. I can tell you what Ivory Soap tastes like...

...that was my mother's punishment of choice for disagreable utterances such as lies or swearing. (not overdone, therefore memorable like theboss's)

On the corporal side, we did not have it too bad. (and as everybody says: "...and I came out OK!"; as they reload the AK-47 and take aim.) :D

[DealsGapRider]

4. Parents should be allowed to spank.

My dad whipped me with his belt (whipped my ass, that is, not my back) maybe 7 or 8 times when I was a kid. It was always done hours after the incident that precipitated the ass-whipping -- as opposed to in the heat of the moment when he was angry -- and he always calmly explained to me why my ass was being whipped. And I always deserved it. I turned out fine.

[soleft]

7. I should be able to hit my senial mother when she behaves badly

[DealsGapRider]

14. If she is senial...

...then she is not capable of learning from mistakes and changing her behavior, right? The whole point of raising children is to teach them what to do and what not to do. Nothing reinforces the lesson that one should not misbehave like a stinging ass.

:spank:

[soleft]

15. If she has slight dementia and leaves her teeth on the table

I can guarantee a good smack is going to keep her from doing that again.

[qb]

17. soleft, am I evil for laughing at your post?

I know you're making a point, and hitting a senile person would be cruel, but the way you put it is so damn funny.

[TheYellowDog]

20. I didn't laugh

Maybe I'm oversensitive, but I found that rude.

[soleft]

21. not anymore crueler than if I beat my wife for farting in bed

I also think I can kick my coworker who's only 5 feet tall if she takes my soda from the refrigerator.

And this guy down the hall is on crutches, when he yells at his secretary and abuses her verbally, it's so easy to trip him and step on his wounded leg until he cries.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Violence only leads to more violence. Never once hit my kids. Ever

They are in their 30's now and I don't regret my decision. Corporal punishment is only used by weak minded individuals who don't know any better in my opinion.

Don

Edit: And I do call the police on anyone I see doing it to their kids in public too. And I will a sign a complaint if necessary, and testify in court against them in a New York minute. I will not stand for an adult hitting a little kid. Fuck that.

Another edit: Same thing goes for any motherscratcher who smacks their spouse or their pet if I see it too.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. what's your opinion of hand slapping?

our 4 y.o. girl put her hand right thru the middle of my B-day cake the other day as a way of ending the arguement of whether it was hers or her daddy's. I wasn't there and my wife had had it with what had been an escalating arguement. She slapped her hand pretty hard and then grabbed the cake away to spare further damage.
I think succinct, "surguical strikes" like that are needed sometimes.
What's your take? And we DO try to avoid getting physical.

[NNN0LHI]

19. I have given my opinion already. And I stand by it n/t

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. O.K. Your line is absolute

and it is drawn absolutely. I can see that, and respect it. I am not sure though that it can work for all children, since not everyone is the same.

[DemVet]

28. Where is spanking illegal?

You call the police? Even where it's legal? Are there any places where spanking a child is prohibited in public? :)

[NNN0LHI]

30. In Illinois where I live

http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/ilcs/ch750/ch750act60articles/ch750act60artstoc.htm

Illinois Compiled Statutes
Families
Illinois Domestic Violence Act of 1986.
750 ILCS 60/

Edit: I have a neighbor who was smacking his kids in the car as he was while driving down the intersate. Someone got on their cell phone and reported the ass-hole. The police beat him home. I wish I would have had camera handy as he was being cuffed and stuffed into the polce car. His kids sure looked relieved.

Don

[meatloaf]

6. Study after study shows that the only thing kids learn from

spanking is that those in power get their way through violence.

[Zero Gravitas]

8. I was caned when I was 10

I don't even remember what for, but I don't think it made any difference one way or the other. Corporal punishment is just an excuse for people to vent their anger and frustration on people who weaker than themselves.

[theboss]

9. Caned?!?!?

You had to grow up in either Singapore or Mississippi.

[Zero Gravitas]

10. UK

"six of the best" at school.

[theboss]

12. England's strange

One of my roommates in college went to boarding school in the UK. There is some strange shit that goes on in schools over there.

I guess that's the danger of having traditions that date to the Middle Ages.

[Skittles]

26. I went to school in England as a child

the teachers would smack my knuckles with a bamboo stick. Sometimes I couldn't write because of it (WTF?). I swear a couple times I got the stick because I was AMERICAN. :(

[TSElliott]

11. I think my father hit me twice while growing up.

Once was at the dinner table when I showed disrespect for my mother, my father backhanded me so hard that my chair literally flipped over with me in it. The other time was when I was in high school and I told him no, he grabbed a broom and did one sharp tap to my head with the stick-end sending me to the floor.

Most times while growing up my father would just tell me that my actions have dishonored the family name or that I have disgraced my ancestors. In reality I would have rather been hit a thousand times than be told that I have brought disgrace to my ancestors.

I think that Corporal Punishment is an effective tool for teaching a child discipline. When my father hit me it was always just one time and it happened quick, before I even realized what was happening. He never spoke angrily about why he did it, in both instances it was days later and he just sat me down and asked if I knew why that happened and when I said "Yes" then he told me if I understood then it should never happen again.

I turned out ok and have never had the need to hit my own children but if it happens I guess I will handle it like my father did.

[Greyskye]

13. well....

Our 5 year old has not been struck by my wife or I. We've been using the techniques described in the book 1-2-3 Magic, which uses a time-out system. The theory is to disrupt the undesired behavior. In addition, we have a formal postive reinforcement system that we feel has been very helpful. These techniques, as well as basic psychological tricks have worked really well for us. Make things into games, etc. My feelings are that if I can't out-think, trick, and manipulate a 5 year old into doing what I want without hitting them, I don't deserve to be a dad. Of course, it doesn't mean that I don't want to sometimes!

One reason that we feel so strongly about this, is that our son has ADHD. One of the primary manifestations of this (for him) is a lack of impulse control. Trust me, you don't want to be demonstrating any activities to a child with poor impulse control that you don't want them to emulate!

My grandmother, on a visit over Christmas last year, swatted him on the bottom for something or another. I can't blame her, that's how she was raised, and that's how she raised my mother (and how my folks raised me as well). My son, however, was beyond shocked. "She HIT me!!!" He didn't see it as a punishment, he saw it as an assault.

[qb]

16. "Shut up, sucker" - that's precious!

I got a laugh out of that. Actually, I'm against spanking. We have a 3 and 6-year-old who have never been spanked. Stern admonishments, time-outs, and revoked privileges are all we have used, and our kids are better behaved than most in the neighborhood. We often get compliments on their manners and behavior.

[theboss]

25. Kids are different

I have a feeling that I was going to be well-behaved no matter who my parents were. My parents were teachers and were big on concepts like "attention to task." Apparently at two, I would sit down with a book and flip each page in order, studying each picture carefully. And I liked to watch basketball games on tv. Other kids would tear the same book apart or throw something at the tv. We're not wired the same so it makes sense that we are not "trained" the same either.

I think spanking is a useful tool in certain limited circumstances.

[JNelson6563]

27. Good for you

Mine are 14 and 11, I've taken the same path and realized the same rewards.

It takes more effort but it's worth it.

Julie

[HERVEPA]

23. Never should!

Violence teaches violence!

I have 2 kids who were hit maybe 3 or 4 times between the 2 of them.
I regret we hit at all.

Maybe we were lucky having intelligent kids, but talking, giving reasons for things, discussing, seemed to work.

Hitting out of anger is never acceptable.

I believe I was hit once as a kid, for running out into the street.

[barbaraann]

24. Another thought: Arnold was "swatted" and how did he turn out?

Couldn't he be an anti-spanking poster child?

[Hanuman]

29. Agree with you.

I have one child- who is one year old and I beat her frequently.

KIDDING!!!!

No, I think it's okay within those parameters you described. I hope never to have to do it.

I was spanked a few times by my parents as a child and I was spanked for VERY good reasons (playing with matches / breaking my sister's arm) and these punishments made a real impact (no pun intended) on me.

Before my dad spanked me he said that doing this made him feel worse than it was going to make me feel. And afterward, he hugged me and told me he loved me and was only doing this to teach me right and wrong.

[Blue_Chill]

31. I think you should be able to hit your kids

I know that several times had my dad not hit me I would have lost respect for the guy. I can't speak for girls but boys at times will come right out and challenge dad.

Being that I'm hispanic and I see throwing your kids out as a sign of irresponsibility and a shameful act. A good smack sometiems does the trick. It's simply wasn't that big a deal to me, it left no mark, ir left no lasting mental trauma and I later came to realise I deserved it for being such a jackass to a guy that gave up his life for me and my sis.

I guess you can't really say if it's always good to use Corporel punishment. But sometimes you just got to be a man tell your son - "listen you little piece of shit, I was a guy before I was a dad and I'll beat your little ass if you disrespect me again!" *smack*

BTW - I was 15 at the time and I credit my dad not giving up on me for my currently happy life.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

32. Sometimes you have to call your kids little pieces of shit

and threaten to beat them if they don't give you respect? That's how you get respect?

Do you really think your kids respect you? Do you know the difference between respect and fear? Does your church advocate this, or is this just a family practice that's been passed down?

[NNN0LHI]

33. You are a real man alright. Jesus Christ n/t

[TSElliott]

36. I agree with you Blue_Chill

Our fathers were probably pretty much the same except for the "little piece of shit" part. Anyway it appears to me that culture plays a major role on someone's belief in punishment.

[mumon]

34. Opposed.

Anybody'd who'd spank a kid -forget about stronger stuff- has no busines raising kids.

If, with all the power and experience an adult has, he can't get behavior from kids that is reasonable, without resorting to physical violence, well, in my opinion, that person shouldn't spawn.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. is yelling violence?

let's get to the grey areas why don't we?

[smirkymonkey]

37. For God's Sake....

the kid could grow up to run for Governor of California, or worse...the President!!

[msmcghee]

38. First you have to deserve their respect . .

. . then you have to consistently require that they honor it. If you are too unengaged to realize what's happening - it will become a habit that will be almost impossible to change.

If you ever hear yourself say "I'm counting to three . . and then ..." or, "If I have to tell you one more time . . " - then you are way beyond having a rational relationship with your kids.

If it requires physical force then there's probably something wrong with the way you relate to them (and to others) in general.

It is true that as parents we often play back the tapes of our parents from our (often more violent) childhood. It can be very hard to create your own set of tapes - as I see several posters to this thread have done. Congratulations.

The problem is that some parents who don't use violence - also don't require their kids' respect. That can also lead to disaster.

[David__77]

39. I prefer emotional torment personally.

Of course I'm only kidding. But the kernel of truth here is that I think that assertively encouraging a child to positively take self-responsibility is the best thing. I know children that would prefer to be hit and that's the end of it, rather than really deal with issues.