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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:43 PM
Original message
Okay I am conflicted about this
I just heard that a mother was convicted of infringing on the privacy rights of her daughter by listening in on her daughter's phone conversations. She overheard about a crime her boyfriend had committed and reported it. The boyfriend spent time in jail after being convicted. The daughter was fourteen and making very poor decisions in her life.

As a parent, I have to say that I want to be involved in my children's lives. If I feel the need to listen in on a conversation that my children are having, I am going to do that in the hopes of protecting my kids from that which they may need protection be it the influence from other children or adults.

I certainly believe in giving children space and independence but I'll be damned if a court is going to tell me how to raise my children especially if I am trying to help them.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm not a parent, so I might be wrong.
But, I would think that a parent that really was involved in their children's lives wouldn't need to listen in on their phone calls.
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Nice thought and
sometimes this is so.

But, in general, when teenagers go through puberty, they naturally pull away from their parents because they are simply growing up and it's an expected process. But, sometimes, this pulling away will take them to places that they are not prepared to go. This is when a good parent does every thing in the world to pull them back on track. It's not a matter of trust. It's not a matter of being involved. It's a matter of a natural process mixed with peer pressure and the youthfulness or making and learning by mistakes. Some mistakes are serious enough that there is no room for the lesson. Thievery is only one of many that fall in this category.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. You are right Estimated Prophet
we, as parents, would love never to feel the need to do this. This is not something that I will do regardless. If I am given no real reason to do this, it won't happen, but as a parent, I hold the right to be extremely nosy with my children. I grew up with parents who really were scared to ask what I was doing and with whom I was hanging out. I made some horrible decisions at times and at times have been extremely lucky as a result and at others I had to learn some hard lessons. I don't want to be that way with my kids. I want to be involved and basically know everything that is going on. My wife shares that with her mom. When she told me about all the things she talked with her mom about, my jar hit the floor. I never, ever, would have discussed such things with my parents.

Anyhow, I think the ruling against this mom is preposterous! Minors do not have more rights than adults and certainly not their parents unless they are being sexually, physically or emotionally abused.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. I think you're wrong.
The parent has primary responsibility to his or her child. If this means you need to snoop or be nosey, so be it. Why should a parent not have the same rights to inspect/monitor that a high school teacher has?

I haven't listened in on my kids' phone calls, but I reserve the right to if I think I need to.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. OK
However, I'm not talking about a parent not having the right to monitor their kids, just that an involved parent may pick up something going wrong for their kids before an uninvolved.
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm with you...
That's absolutely ridiculous. Who paid the phone bill? Who paid the rent/mortgage?

I love my fifteen year-old very much, and when I don't think I know what I need to know to help her and protect her, I will read her notes, I will listen in on her phone conversations, etc. An she knows it.

Where did this happen? (I guess "why did this happen" would be a stupid question.)
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maestro, you have it right.
Minor children are the responsibility of their parents. To maintain some order, parents must stay informed. To do less would make a parent liable for negligence.

Hey, kiss those sweet kids of yours. I still remember your post with their pictures fondly. It reminds me why I plod along against the flow and try to keep my corner of the world a safe and sane place.

Merry Merry to you and yours.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. They are doing great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I post some more pics later in another thread. Tomorrow is my boy's 3rd birthday and today is my anniversary. Yes, flowers were sent to my wife's work. ;)
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:54 PM
Original message
if i read other reports accurately...
the mother was convicted of NOTHING.

the decision was that the daughters boyfriend could not be convicted using evidence that had been illegally obtained: the mother listening in on a conversation where the boyfriend admitted his crime.

the court also did not say that a parent cannot listen to a childs calls.

the right wing spin of the original post should be obvious now.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. @ret5hd
You don't know me very well. I'm extremely liberal. Don't insinuate such things like that. There is no RW spin in wanting to be an involved parents. I abhore rethuglicans and even detest more the people that can tell me who I am by reading one post. Do a search of my name and see if you think I am RW. I take personal offense to that. So stop gloating you have not found a freeper in disguise. :mad:

I am just repeating what I heard from MSNBC.

Other threads of mine...Yeah I am a freeper. /sarcasm/

Here is one

My attack on religious conservatives from my church
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. take your anger elsewhere brother (sister)...
if you re-read my post and the original post i believe it is clear that the spin i referred to is obvious.

If you don't agree with the spin put on it from MSNBC, fine, then we agree.

If you do agree with the spin put on it from MSNBC...well, i guess we have to agree to disagree.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. You should read more carefully
1) You misstated the facts of this case. You misportrayed it as one where a mother got in trouble for doing her job as a mother. It wasn't true.

2) The reference to "right-wing spin" did not seem to accuse you of being a freeper. The STORY was distorted by "right-wing spin". Some of us have heard of criminal cases being subjected to "right-wing spin" in a manner JUST LIKE the way THIS case was spun.

The next time you hear a story about how some legal case has gone awry in an offensive manner, I hope you will remember that the right-wing has spent millions of dollars misportraying many court cases. Before you repeat their spin, I would hope that you first verify the facts, the way another poster did.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. See post 21
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm not sure who you're accusing of what...
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 02:39 PM by Atman
edit: this is in response to ret5hd

Maestro? The RW? But I have to be honest with you, your version of this -- a conviction of the boyfriend based upon the mother's eavesdropping on a call -- was the first I've heard this angle mentioned. If it is indeed the case, then I at first glance, I must say that I agree with the courts. It sure sounds like "tainted" evidence.

Maybe you could have worded your response to Maestro differently.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. maybe i could have...
because the criticism i had wasn't of maestro, but of the spin being propagated everywhere.

See AP's post #14 on this thread for the full text of the decision. It backs up my assertions.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. No, MSNBC is where the "right wing spin" came from
Maestro merely repeated it without checking up on the facts
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Isn't 17 old enough to be emancipated?
I don't know, I think 17 is old enough to expect a decent about of privacy without just cause.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. 17 or 18 I think
Not sure.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. You might want to check state law first. And if there's no exception for
parents, and you feel strongly about this, then you need to note your concern with your state legislators.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am a liberal's liberal, but NOT too conflicted
I have a 16 yo right now. I've taught my kids that privacy -- theirs and ours -- are extremely important. I will not open their mail, I won't listen in on their calls, I won't snoop in their rooms.

Unless they give me a damn good reason to do so.

They are MINORS, and this decision is absurd because the courts also can find parents legally responsible for crimes their kids commit. Families get thrown out of public housing because a teenager sells crack...but the parent isn't allowed to snoop on the suspected crack dealing child under her roof?

As long as the children are minors and we as parents are deemed responsible for them, then we have every right to listen, spy, snoop, anything we want. Teach them well, raise them with good values, and hope like hell it all works out.

It has worked for my kids...my 16 yo is going through tough times right now, due to typical teen angst/peers/girls. But I still haven't ever felt the need to snoop and spy. But if he starts getting into trouble, you can be damned sure I will do everything in my power to try to stop it before it gets worse.

Or maybe we should just tip off the Feds. They can sneak into his room and read his e-mail and tap his phones without telling ANYONE. But I, as a parent, can't monitor my own child? Puhlleeeeeeeeze!
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. We think alike
liberal of liberals. :)
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. My liberal parents - especially mother-would NEVER read my mail
or eavesdrop on my conversations. Once that I can reacall my father followed one of my sisters who had told my parents where she was going (with her boyfriend in his car). Turns out my sister was telling the truth. The result was the biggest fight I ever saw my parents have. My mother, in particular, believed it was wrong to snoop.

Was I an angel? Hell no. Did I do unwise, maybe even illegal (gasp!) things? Maybe yes, maybe no. Did my parents suspect but look the other way? Probably. But here I am today, a respected middle class politically active contributor to society. And thanks to my mother, I have the utmost respect for the privacy of others, even my husband's teenager.

In sum, I guess I'm with Atman and living proof that Atman's philosophy works.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
14. Text of opinon (this isn't about parent's rights, it's about the rights of
...the guy who went to jail because the mother listened in on a conversation he thought was private).

http://www.courts.wa.gov/opinions/index.cfm?fa=opinions.opindisp&docid=748390MAJ

 Supreme Court of the State of Washington

Opinion Information Sheet

Docket Number: 74839-0
Title of Case: State of Washington v. Oliver C. Christensen
File Date: 12/09/2004
Oral Argument Date: 10/19/2004


SOURCE OF APPEAL
----------------
Appeal from Superior Court,
County
Honorable Alan R Hancock


JUSTICES
--------
Authored by Tom Chambers
Concurring: Faith Ireland
Barbara A. Madsen
Bobbe J Bridge
Charles W. Johnson
Gerry L Alexander
Richard B. Sanders
Susan Owens
Mary Fairhurst


COUNSEL OF RECORD
-----------------
Counsel for Petitioner(s)
Michael John Tario
Tario & Associates PS
119 N Commercial St Fl 10
Bellingham, WA 98225-4446

Counsel for Respondent(s)
Philip James Buri
Buri Funston PLLC
1601 F Street
Bellingham, WA 98225-3011

Randall Keenan Gaylord
Attorney at Law
PO Box 760
Friday Harbor, WA 98250-0760

Amicus Curiae on behalf of AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION
Douglas B Klunder
Attorney at Law
1603 45th Ave SW
Seattle, WA 98116-1625


IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

STATE OF WASHINGTON, )
)
Respondent, ) No. 74839-0
)
v. ) En Banc
)
OLIVER C. CHRISTENSEN, ) )
Petitioner. ) Filed December 9, 2004
)

CHAMBERS, J. - A mother, using the speakerphone function of the family's
cordless telephone system, surreptitiously listened to a conversation
between her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend in which a crime was
discussed. The mother was permitted to testify against the boyfriend at
his trial about what she overheard. We conclude that under the Washington
privacy act, the conversation in question was a private one and the base
unit of the cordless telephone was a device designed to transmit. We
reverse.

STATEMENT OF THE CASE
On October 24, 2000, two young men approached an elderly woman walking down
the street in Friday Harbor, Washington. One of the men grabbed the
woman's purse and, after a struggle in which the woman fell and broke her
glasses, the young men fled with the purse.

San Juan County Sheriff Bill Cumming suspected Oliver Christensen, a local
17-year-old, of involvement in the robbery. He believed that evidence of
the robbery might be found in the house of Christensen's then-girl friend,
Lacey Dixon. Sheriff Cumming contacted Mrs. Dixon, Lacey's mother, and
obtained her consent to search her home for evidence of the crime. He
found no evidence in Mrs. Dixon's home, but asked her to keep a lookout for
any evidence of the crime that might surface.

Christensen later telephoned Lacey. When he called, Mrs. Dixon answered
the telephone. She handed the cordless handset to her daughter, who took
it upstairs into her bedroom and closed the door. Mrs. Dixon activated the
speakerphone function of the cordless telephone system by pressing a button
on the base unit. Mrs. Dixon took notes from the conversation she
overheard, in which Christensen acknowledged to Lacey that he was aware
that police suspected him of the robbery and that he knew the whereabouts
of the purse, but not that he had taken part in the robbery. Neither
Christensen nor Lacey knew of, or consented to, Mrs. Dixon listening to
their conversation.

Over Christensen's objection at trial, Mrs. Dixon testified as to the
substance of the conversation she overheard.1 In addition to Mrs. Dixon,
the State offered the testimony of four other witnesses, only one of whom
could identify Christensen as a participant in the robbery. That witness,
an acquaintance of Christensen's, had agreed to testify for the State on
the same day he agreed to plead guilty to the same robbery. He testified
that on the night of the robbery, he had been high on methamphetamine
during a meth binge but remembered Christensen being involved in the
robbery. Christensen was convicted of second degree robbery.
The Court of Appeals affirmed the trial court's decision to admit Mrs.
Dixon's testimony. State v. Christensen, 119 Wn. App. 74, 79 P.3d 12
(2003). We granted review, State v. Christensen, 151 Wn.2d 1031, 95 P.3d
758 (2004).

DISCUSSION
We must decide whether this state's privacy act was violated when Mrs.
Dixon listened to the conversation between Christensen and Lacey on the
base unit of the cordless telephone without their permission. The act
provides that it is unlawful for any individual to 'intercept, or record
any:'{p}rivate communication transmitted by telephone, telegraph, radio, or
other device between two or more individuals between points within or
without the state by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record
and/or transmit said communication regardless how such device is powered or
actuated, without first obtaining the consent of all the participants in
the communication.


RCW 9.73.030(1)(a) (emphasis added). Evidence obtained in violation of the
act is inadmissible for any purpose at trial. RCW 9.73.050.

There are essentially four prongs in analyzing alleged violations of the
privacy act. There must have been (1) a private communication transmitted
by a device, which was (2) intercepted by use of (3) a device designed to
record and/or transmit, (4) without the consent of all parties to the
private communication. RCW 9.73.030.

The parties do not dispute that Mrs. Dixon's act of listening in on the
base unit of the cordless telephone system was an 'intercept' under the
act. There is also no dispute that the intercept was accomplished without
the consent of 'all the participants.' Thus, the only remaining issues are
whether the conversation was a private one and whether the base unit of the
cordless telephone was a device designed to record and/or transmit.
Private Communications

Generally, the question of whether a particular communication is private is
a question of fact, but may be decided as a question of law where the facts
are undisputed. State v. Townsend, 147 Wn.2d 666, 673, 57 P.3d 255 (2002)
(citing State v. Clark, 129 Wn.2d 211, 225, 916 P.2d 384 (1996)). The
facts are not in dispute.

Christensen argues that based on their reasonable expectations and
subjective intent, the conversation between him and Lacey was private. The
State suggests, however, that because Lacey and Christensen knew that it
was possible that their calls would be monitored, their expectation of
privacy was not reasonable despite their subjective intent.
While the term 'private' is not defined in the act, this court has adopted
the dictionary definition: ''belonging to one's self . . . secret . . .
intended only for the persons involved (a conversation) . . . holding a
confidential relationship to something . . . a secret message: a private
communication . . . secretly: not open or in public.'' Webster's Third New
International Dictionary (1969), quoted in Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 673.
A communication is private (1) when parties manifest a subjective intention
that it be private and (2) where that expectation is reasonable. Townsend,
147 Wn.2d at 673. Factors bearing on the reasonableness of the privacy
expectation include the duration and subject matter of the communication,
the location of the communication and the potential presence of third
parties, and the role of the nonconsenting party and his or her
relationship to the consenting party. Clark, 129 Wn.2d at 225-27. We have
held that parties to a conversation on a cordless telephone do not have a
lowered expectation of privacy. State v. Faford, 128 Wn.2d 476, 485, 910
P.2d 447 (1996).

Christensen and Lacey subjectively intended to have a private conversation.
Christensen manifested this intent by asking to speak to his girl friend.
Lacey manifested this intent by taking the cordless telephone from her
mother, going upstairs to her bedroom, and closing the door.
The expectation of privacy was reasonable. The State contends that the
parties' expectation of privacy was not reasonable because they should have
known that someone could have been listening in to their call. We have
repeatedly held that the mere possibility that intrusion on otherwise
private activities is technologically feasible does not strip citizens of
their privacy rights. Faford, 128 Wn.2d at 485 (citing State v. Young, 123
Wn.2d 173, 186, 867 P.2d 593 (1994); State v. Myrick, 102 Wn.2d 506, 513-
14, 688 P.2d 151 (1984)).

The State also suggests that there should be an implied exception to the
act in the case of minor children, arguing that children have a reduced
expectation of privacy because parents have an absolute right to monitor
all telephone calls coming into the family home. The federal wiretap
statute, which makes interception of communications legal where one party
consents, has been interpreted to permit parents acting to protect the
welfare of a child, to consent vicariously for their child to the recording
of their child's conversations. See, e.g., Pollock v. Pollock, 154 F.3d
601, 620 (6th Cir. 1998); Scheib v. Grant, 22 F.3d 149, 154 (7th Cir.
1994); Newcomb v. Ingle, 944 F.2d 1534, 1536 (10th Cir. 1991); Janecka v.
Franklin, 843 F.2d 110, 110 (2d Cir. 1988); Campbell v. Price, 2 F. Supp.
2d 1186, 1191-92 (E.D. Ark. 1998). The Washington act, with its all-party
consent requirement, contains no such parental exception and no Washington
court has ever implied such an exception. We decline to do so now.
The State also alleges that because Mrs. Dixon had listened in to her
daughter's conversations in the past, reasonable expectations of privacy
had been destroyed. There is no evidence in the record, however, that
either Lacey or Christensen was aware of Mrs. Dixon's earlier monitoring.
Furthermore, since it is Christensen's expectation of privacy with which we
are concerned, even if Lacey did have a lowered expectation of privacy
based on the nature of the relationship with her mother, it cannot
reasonably be said that Christensen's expectation was similarly lowered.
The parties' conversation was private.
Device Designed to Transmit

There is no indication that the speakerphone function on the base unit of a
cordless telephone system is a 'device designed to record.' We must, then,
decide whether the base unit of a cordless telephone system is within the
category of 'any device' designed to transmit, a question of first
impression in this court. The interpretation of a statute is a question of
law and subject to de novo review. Rest. Dev., Inc. v. Canawill, Inc., 150
Wn.2d 674, 681, 80 P.3d 598 (2003).

In interpreting a statute, this court's primary obligation is to give
effect to the legislature's intent. Id. This inquiry always begins with
the plain language of the statute. Id. at 681-82. The court must not add
words where the legislature has chosen not to do so. Id. Additionally,
where the statute is subject to more than one reasonable interpretation,
this court may look to other sources of legislative intent, such as the
legislative history. Id.

Christensen argues that the base unit of a cordless telephone system, with
its attached speakerphone component, is a 'device designed to transmit'
under the act. The State argues that the speakerphone portion of the base
unit of a cordless telephone is not such a device.

The section of the privacy act dealing with electronic communications was
passed in 1967, before advances in communications technology such as
cordless and cellular telephones had been developed. Neither the term
'device' nor the term 'transmit' is defined in the statute. Absent a
statutory definition of a term, courts may resort to dictionaries to
ascertain the common meaning of statutory language. See State v. Pacheco,
125 Wn.2d 150, 154, 882 P.2d 183 (1994).

In Faford, another case involving the interception of cordless telephone
conversations, this court rejected the narrow definition of the word
'transmit' that had been adopted by the trial court. On direct review of
the superior court in that case, we held that '{i}n light of the breadth of
the act's purpose,' the preferred definition should include 'alternative
definitions from Webster's Third New International Dictionary, such as
'disseminate' or 'communicate.'' Faford, 128 Wn.2d at 483-84. We further
observed that for the purposes of intercepting a cordless telephone
conversation, 'transmission occurs in the conversion of inaudible sound
waves and their emission as audible sound.' Id. at 483 (citing United
States v. Smith, 978 F.2d 171, 175 n.5 (5th Cir. 1992)).

The State argues that the speakerphone function of the base unit of the
cordless telephone is not within the category of 'any device' designed to
transmit. The State relies primarily on two cases interpreting the act:
State v. Corliss, 123 Wn.2d 656, 870 P.2d 317 (1994) and State v. Bonilla,
23 Wn. App. 869, 598 P.2d 783 (1979).

In Corliss, we held that police did not violate the privacy act by having a
drug informant, who was attempting to arrange drug sales, tilt a telephone
receiver away from his ear so that a police officer could listen in to the
conversation. In a brief discussion, we reasoned that merely listening in
to a conversation did not involve an 'interception' by a 'device.'
Corliss, 123 Wn.2d at 662. The facts of Corliss are markedly different
from the facts of this case. In Corliss, the police officer merely heard a
conversation in the same manner as the police informant who was a party to
the conversation. In contrast, Mrs. Dixon heard a conversation from an
intermediate location between Christensen's telephone extension and Lacey's
mobile handset, and without the knowledge of either party.
Corliss is unhelpful because it involves a situation in which one of the
parties to the private conversation consented, and it did not involve an
'interception' by a surreptitious third party to the call. The police
officer in that case was a party to the call. Mrs. Dixon was not a party
to the conversation between Lacey and Christensen.
Bonilla is also of limited guidance because it did not directly address
the definition of the term 'device' under the act. The issue before the
Bonilla court was whether an interception had occurred. The defendant in
Bonilla called a police dispatcher several times and confessed to murdering
his wife. The dispatcher summoned another officer to listen in on the
calls. The Bonilla court correctly held that the defendant had no
reasonable expectation of privacy under such circumstances. The court
reasoned that there was no illegal 'interception' and that the defendant's
conversation was not a 'private communication.' Without supporting
authority or analysis, the court's opinion contained two conclusory
sentences implying that an extension telephone is not a device within the
meaning of the privacy act. Bonilla, 23 Wn. App. at 873. Yet, the
meaning of the word 'device' was neither briefed nor argued by the parties
in Bonilla. The Bonilla court's gratuitous statements about the meaning of
the term 'device' under the statute was, therefore, mere dicta.
Had the State argued and proved that Mrs. Dixon's act of listening in to
her daughter's conversation with Christensen was not an intercept, the
resolution of this case might well have proceeded down a different
analytical path.2

The Bonilla court also implied that a separate device from the one used in
the communication is required by the statute. We recently rejected this
requirement, holding that 'it makes no difference that the {violation} was
accomplished on a device that was used in the communication.' Townsend,
147 Wn.2d at 674. The State attempts to distinguish Townsend by suggesting
that the separate device requirement applies only to devices designed to
record, and not devices designed to transmit. The act, however, makes no
such distinction.

We adhere to Faford. We must interpret the privacy act in a manner that
ensures that the private conversations of this state's residents are
protected in the face of an ever-changing technological landscape. This
must be done so as to ensure that new technologies cannot be used to defeat
the traditional expectation of privacy. For purposes of the privacy act,
the word 'transmit' means to disseminate or communicate. Here the base
unit of the cordless telephone both received and transmitted. The base
unit received inaudible sound waves, and transmission occurred when those
sound waves and their emissions were converted into audible sound. The
base unit further transmitted inaudible radio signals to the cordless
handset. The base unit of the cordless telephone was a device designed to
transmit within the meaning of Washington's privacy act.
While the statute itself is unambiguous, a survey of the legislative
history only serves to buttress this conclusion. Since 1909, the privacy
act has protected sealed messages, letters, and telegrams from being opened
or read by someone other than the intended recipient. RCW 9.73.010-.020.
In 1967, the legislature amended the act in order to keep pace with the
changing nature of electronic communications and in recognition of the fact
that there was no law that prevented eavesdropping. See House Journal,
40th Leg., 1st Ex. Sess., at 2030-31 (Wash. 1967). In doing so,
Washington's privacy statute became 'one of the most restrictive in the
nation.' Townsend, 147 Wn.2d at 672.3

The federal government and 49 states have enacted privacy or eavesdropping
statutes (all of which are at least as restrictive as the federal statute).4
Washington, however, is among only 11 states that require that all parties
to a private communication must consent to its disclosure.5 The so-called
'all-party consent' rule adds an additional layer of protection to the
private conversations of this state's residents.6 In balancing the
legitimate needs of law enforcement to obtain information in criminal
investigations against the privacy interests of individuals, the Washington
statute, unlike similar statutes in 38 other states, tips the balance in
favor of individual privacy at the expense of law enforcement's ability to
gather evidence without a warrant.7 Since 1967, the legislature has twice
made amendments to the act without amending the 'all-party consent'
provision.
In State v. Gunwall, 106 Wn.2d 54, 720 P.2d 808 (1986), this court cited
the act as evidence to support our unanimous decision to use independent
state constitutional grounds to find that use of a pen register violated
the state constitution, even though it did not violate the Fourth
Amendment:
The State of Washington has a long history of extending strong protections
to telephonic and other electronic communications. For example {the privacy
act}, RCW 9.73.010, which makes it a misdemeanor for anyone to wrongfully
obtain knowledge of a telegraphic message, was enacted in 1909 and is based
on section 2342 of the Code of 1881. The 1881 Code, adopted before
statehood, extensively regulated telegraphic communications. See Code of
1881, sec.sec. 2342-62. Our present statute is broad, detailed and extends
considerably greater protections to our citizens in this regard than do
comparable federal statutes and rulings thereon . . . . The long history
and tradition of strict legislative protection of telephonic and other
electronic communications in this state lends strong support to our
decision to resort to independent state constitutional grounds in this
case.
Id. at 66 (citation and footnote omitted). This court, thus, gave
endorsement to Washington's long-standing tradition of affording great
protection to individual privacy. If any textual ambiguity about the
meaning of the statute lingers, it ought to be resolved in favor of giving
effect to the legislative intent of the statute. It is, of course, within
the province of the legislature to shift this statutory balance should it
decide the residents of this state require less privacy protection.
Prejudicial Error
The State maintains that even if there was error in admitting Mrs. Dixon's
testimony, the error was harmless. Christensen asserts that admitting the
testimony was prejudicial. Failure to suppress evidence obtained in
violation of the act is prejudicial unless, within reasonable probability,
the erroneous admission of the evidence did not materially affect the
outcome of the trial. State v. Porter, 98 Wn. App. 631, 638, 990 P.2d 460
(1999).
The erroneous admission of Mrs. Dixon's testimony was prejudicial. Her
testimony was likely the most credible of those witnesses who testified
about Christensen's alleged involvement in the robbery. She listened to
the conversation between Lacey and Christensen soon after the incident and
made personal notes about the conversation. She referenced those notes on
the witness stand. It cannot reasonably be held that the admission of her
testimony did not materially affect the outcome of the trial.

CONCLUSION
The Washington privacy statute puts a high value on the privacy of
communications. In light of its strong wording, the act must be
interpreted to effectuate the legislative intent. Based on the subjective
intentions and reasonable expectations of Christensen and Lacey, their
conversation was a private one. Based on the plain meaning of the term
'transmit,' we hold that the speakerphone component of the base unit of a
cordless telephone is a device designed to transmit under the privacy act.
It was error to admit Mrs. Dixon's testimony regarding what she heard over
the speakerphone and that error was not harmless.

This matter is reversed and remanded for a new trial consistent with this
opinion.

WE CONCUR:

...
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thanks, AP...
It seems some are happier with the spin than the facts.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Bullcrap!
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 04:37 PM by Maestro
Nobody is happier with the spin. You continue to accuse people of believing the spin. Get off your high horse. I heard something on MSNBC so I wanted to discuss it here. Nothing more; nothing less. Then I am berated for not researching and believing MSNBC. Jesus Christ, stop being so critical. I am very cynical about much of what I hear then I am crucified if I post something that I heard and found interesting because of the way I heard it. Is this not the place to discuss such things? I hear so many complain about this forum and I never really understood why. Now I do.

If I posted something that was in error then word your critique differently and stop sounding so condescending. I am not your enemy. I simply opened up something for discussion. So am I a bad liberal for listening to MSNBC? Is there some set rules I need to follow in order to get my news from the best resources? MSNBC is just one of many, many sources. I simply happened to hear this report first from them. Next time I'll only post news for Tom Paine or Mother Jones.

Edit: To make title less abrasive
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Who is complaining about this forum?
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Plenty of people in the Lounge.
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 04:46 PM by Maestro
I'll see if I can't find a thread.

Edit: Thanks for the research btw.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Here are some.
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 05:01 PM by Maestro
First one I found

Another one

Here is a thread where I tried to defend GD with some bad humor

Again, I really never understood what they were talking about until my reception here today from a few who took offense that I am not some law genius or that I watched MSNBC. It is not like I was watching Tweety or Scarborough.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. o.k. ---i accept your analysis of my input to this discussion...
and it could have been worded better.

Now that that is over:

What is your opinion of the court decision now that the intent of the ruling is clear? Has your opinion of the ruling changed or remained the same?

My opinion (based on what i know so far) is that the ruling is a good one. The evidence was tainted.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. I believe in the decision
of the judge in favor of the boyfriend because all of us are protected from self-incrimination, if that is the term. I am not a lawyer. Even though I believe the boyfriend to part of the problem, he is protected under the law.

And thanks for understanding.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. The boy's conviction was overturned. Had the mother discussed it with
the daughter and convinced the daughter to do the right thing and report it, the conviction would have stood up. Since the mother violated the state's privacy laws by intercepting the call and reporting what she illegally learned, the decision is a good one.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I have no problem with that.
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 04:45 PM by Maestro
The way the discussion was held on MSNBC was more focused on the mother listening to the daughter's conversation and how it was an invasion of HER privacy; NOT the boyfriend's. As a parent I found that strange and wanted to talk about it, but I am still crucified, not by you nothingshocksmeanymore, but others since I didn't go and do my legal research into the case.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. The state law protects both parties to the telephone conversation -- so
Edited on Fri Dec-10-04 04:54 PM by AP
MSNBC wasn't misprepresenting that.

What they probably wanted to sensationalize -- what with that story about the Florida parents living in the tent because their kids are so crazy -- was the division between kids and parents.

What they didn't want to talk about was the more nuanced argument about admissability of evidence in criminal court where a person's liberty is at stake.

It seems the court was really upset about the fact that the woman took notes and then sat on the stand and read from her notes (which they felt was very powerful, illegal evidence against the defendant) -- the law forbids making recordings after using a device to intercept a phone call (and the device she used was the base station for the portable phone).

Say a parent eavesdropped on a child and punished that child. Technically, they've violated the privacy statute EXCEPT for the recording part (and I'm just going from memory -- I scanned the opinion very quickly). It would be interesting to see a situation where you didn't have the admissability question, but where you had a parent eavesdropper -- it would be interesting to see where the line would be drawn. In any event, Washington parents should be careful about eavesdropping on their children by interecepting and recording their conversations because it's pretty obvious the state is unusual in that it takes this issue very seriously.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I still say that a parent should have the right to
listen to any conversation a child has. This is setting up a bad precedence in my opinion. If parents can not do this, what about searching his or her room for drugs if you suspect drug use by your child? If we can't listen to phone conversations if we feel the need, can we not search their rooms either?

Again, I don't plan to do this unless given a reason, but if I do, it will be to protect MY child. I fear where this would lead. We as parents need to be able all we can to protect our children if necessary.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. The parent does have the right to...any information obtained, however
can't be used in court. Same as if you admit a crime and someone else tapes the phonecall without your knowledge
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. ...actually, it looks like intercepting and recording is a crime. I'm sure
they're not going to prosecute this mother for doing that though.

Technically, I guess they could charge her (but she'd probably get off just like what's her name in the Lewinsky thing) -- which adds another interesting angle to this case. The wire tap law is not an evidentiary statutue. However, the court in this case was saying that she broke the law to get the evidence, but there hasn't been a determination of whether she did break the law. You think you'd need to convict her of breaking the wiretap law before you determined that the evidence was fruit of a poisonous tree. Know what I mean?

I don't know much about criminal law, so I don't know how this would work if, say, it was like an illegal pat down or something. Would there have had to have been a hearing or a motion regarding the pat down before the appeals court could rule on it? Maybe there was a motion about the phone call at the trial, and at that point they laid out all the evidence that it was indeed illegal, even though she wasn't convicted of wirtapping.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Actually that is an interesting angle..I thought it was fruit from a
poisonous tree reasoning...I gotta admit...all I read was the article from the other day and am operating off recall. I imagine if the mother gave the daughter a written/ verbal warning that any and all of her calls might be listened to she'd be able to listen in as she pleased
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I'm totally unprepared to be smart about this...
...but my question is how do you know the tree is poisoned without actually having a hearing determining that the mother broke the wire-tap statute? And what does it matter how the gov't got the evidence, so long as the gov't wasn't violating anyone's rights?

They're not charging her, so she's not going to be convicted of wire-tapping, it seems. But they're saying the fruit is poisoned because she broke the law (which, granted, is pretty straightforward: no intercepting with a device and recording without consent).

The wire tap law isn't an evidentiary rule (although it is based on expecation of privacy). So it's not like you have an illegal search and seizure -- which, in itself, isn't a crime. It's not like you could convict a cop of violating your 4th amendment rights after you get evidence from an illegal search thrown out. A bad search is just something that happens within the context of an investigation of the crime -- and't is an act committed by the government.

And I'm sure there are examples where, for example, say a tresspasser gives evidence to the police about a crime, the evidence is admissable because the police didn't violate your rights -- it was the trespasser who did. You could sue a person for trespass, or have them charged with criminal trespass, but a tree is only poisoned for the purpose of the criminal convictions if it was the government that violated your privacy rights (and if the trespasser wasn't an informant, but just someone not afraid to confess their own crime in the course of revealing another crime).

Apparently Washington criminal procedure law is very different from federal criminal procedure (or maybe I don't know anything about the law). I'm sure all the answers are in the opinion, but I guess I'd rather waste my time writing about it than reading it!

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Techncally, you can listen in Wash., but you can't really record it.
I could be wrong--read it quickly -- but I think that's what it says.

And this statute has absolutely nothing to do with searching a room.

Have you read the opinon?

The point is that Washington has a particularly high level of protection for TELEPHONE communications, and nothing else. The federal wire tap statute has excpetions for parents, but Washington chose to go with the maximum protection: you cannot use a device to intercept and record a telephone conversation no matter who is a party to the call.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Ahhh.hence the attention payed in the item above to the mother's notes
which were tantamount to recording
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. ..and was the thing that made her testimony so compelling.
Had she just repeated what she remembered, the jury could have given it less weight because the defense would have said that she never liked the boyfriend and her memory is colored by her hating him so much.

However, she sat there and read straight from the notes she made. And there's no reason to believe that a present sense RECORDED isn't reliable.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. well the issue was wire laws and they extend to parent child relationships
in a sense it's good...if a child is calling 911 because their parent is beating them and the parent intercepts the call, it's nice to know there is one more charge that can now be tagged on in that state.

Privacy rights extend to children. I think that is good.

In regards to your concerns as a parent..I guess I would question WHY getting involved in your child's life MIGHT POSSIBLY include snooping in on calls they think are private..you always have the option of making sure they use the phone in the same room as you.

I guess I don't see the issue..if one needs to sneak to snoop on their kids, don't they realize the kid is going to come up with ways to avoid that domination and outsmart them?

I think privacy laws are good.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. Back when I was a kid...
Before cordless phones were in every home... We had two telephones in our house. One in the kitchen, and one in the office. The kitchen phone had an extra-long cord on it, and my brother and I would stretch it as far away from the adults as we could. We could also talk on the office phone and shut the door. I never ever suspected that my mother or stepfather might pick up the other phone and listen in. Of course, I was never stupid enough to talk about anything on the phone that might get me in trouble. I turned 18 in 1987.

There will be no phones in my child's room when he/she gets to be of phone-privacy wanting age. When you're a child, privacy is not a right, it's a privelege. And the older you get as a child, more and more of this privelege will be granted.

I am stunned at the number of kids who have cell phones. My husband taught a group music lesson last night where one of the girls in the lesson literally stopped the rehearsal because she was freaking out that she couldn't find her cell phone. She didn't have to make a call, she wasn't expecting one; she realized that she didn't have it in her pocket and she had a hissyfit.

I have a difficult time accepting that cell phones for kids function as anything other than digital surrogates for parents who have bought into the must buy, must sign up, must be busy nightmare that's being advertised as the American Dream these days.

I really believe that the less we give to our children (materially) the better off they'll be in the long run.


Too bad so much of this thread is wasted with petty infighting (hang strong Maestro) instead of actually discussing the dilemma presented.

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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Gracias Dora
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agitprop Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. .
teens should have privacy rights
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-10-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
45. I agree. A 14-year-old child needs adult supervision.
Hormones are raging and thought processes are disrupted at 14. Mothers have to be able to trust and act on their own intuition regarding child rearing.
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