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rbking Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:02 PM
Original message
A question for DUers about the separation of church and state
On what do you base the separation of church and state? I know the First Amendment, but on what else is this based? I'm not asking about theory or opinion here, but concrete writings from the framers of the constitution. What is it that actually leads us to know that there was an intent to separate?
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thomas Jefferson
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.
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Fleurs du Mal Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. AU: Founding Documents section
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not an exact quote, but...
"that clause (the first amendment) was intended to erect a wall of seperation between church and state forever."

-Thomas Jefferson.

And the supreme court has been interpreting it that way since the very beginning.
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CaptainCorc Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. US Constitution Article VI clause 3
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 09:28 PM by CaptainCorc
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

on edit: I replied to the wrong post...sorry about that
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. there's a statement in the Treaty of Tripoli that says US not a Christian
nation

and I think treaties are law
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. article 11 of the treaty
http://home.att.net/~utahatheistnews/Tripoli.html

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

for discussions with conservative christians, you might want to find a more 'neutral' webpage for the quote.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes, international treaties supercede U.S. law.
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 09:31 PM by Massacure
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qs04 Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Supreme law alongside the Constitution
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land." Article. VI., Clause 2
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. The framers were all products of the Enlightenment..........
They were well aware of the dangers of the church having too much influence in government. The "Divine right of Kings" and other such things were distasteful for any number of reasons, not merely the fact that the common folks were almost ALWAYS oppressed. This nation was the first in history designed from the start to have a SECULAR government. That is why you are to be tried by a jury of your peers, not a jury of priests which was common in Europe.

Read this book;
"Why the Religious Right is Wrong about the Separation of Church and State"

I don't know the author and i couldn't find it on Amazon but i bought my copy at Barnes and Noble. Well researched and documented.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. In the UK, there is an Established Church. The Church of England.
The Archbishop of Canterbury is England's spiritual leader, and the Monarch is the "Defender of the Faith". All Parliamentarians swear allegiance to the Queen and God before they are allowed to sit in the House. The coins have "ELIZABETH II D.G. REG.F.D." on them, which stands for "Elizabeth II, Deo Gratias, Regina Fedelis Defensor", or "Elizabeth II, by the grace of God, Queen and Defender of the Faith". The (horrible) national anthem is called "God save the Queen". Most of Britain's state schools are Church of England schools, complete with prayers and Bible lessons.

So there is no separation of church and state. And what has this achieved? The almost total end of Britain as a Christian country.

But notice how all the various connections between church and state in the UK involve the monarchy. A connection between church and state is best not for shoring up the church but for shoring up the leader of the state. After all, God put them there.

So perhaps that says something about why some Republicans are keen to get the church involved in the American state - it's to benefit their leader, not the church. Any fool can see that.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. That makes sense out of our recent Urban Legend that Chimpy...
...is "Chosen of God"...

Makes perfect sense why they want to smash the separation of church and state.

With a State religion, and a "president" who was divinely appointed, would that not give birth to the idea of the "Divine RIGHT of Presidents"? why have elections? justy have Billy Graham or his descendants annoint and crown the new "president who really is a King"...
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.
The voice of the people is the voice of God.

You could make up a bumper sticker saying "Vox 49%, Vox Dei", but it would probably pass over most people's heads ...
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. At least 51% of their heads...n/t
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. What does n/t stand for?
I've often wondered.
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u4ic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. It stands for no text (in the body of the message)
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. On a point of order
UK MPs do not have to swear allegiance to God. There is a form in which they affirm allegiance to the Queen, with no reference to God. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1716370.stm

Also, it's not 'most' of schools that are C of E. All schools are meant to have some "daily act of worship" which would most likely be Christian in character - though 76% of secondary schools do not.

In terms of the relationship between the percentages of the Church of England schools and of pupils in them, there are national discrepancies, in that the Church of England has 25% of the overall number of schools but only 18% of the nation’s pupils in them. This is because many of the church schools are small. By contrast, the Roman Catholic position is that percentages of pupils and schools are the same – their schools are of average size.

http://www.culham.ac.uk/CS_stud/cs_maps/methodology.html
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks for the detail.
I grew up in Oxford, and most of the schools there - the big ones - were CofE, or at least it seemed so, hence that fallacy. But you will notice I didn't say "daily". Weekly is common. Harvest festivals count.
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Separation of Church & State "Fact" & "Refresher" References...
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 10:27 PM by shuffnew
The answer to your question is: President Thomas Jefferson (see question 7 in below course quiz where I have added links to view the source of the answer) which has already been stated in some of the replies in your post's thread.

*****
I have posted the below before on DU, but did not bookmark so will post again. I found many good brief refresher courses at http://www.pbs.org (including the one below) for "Separation of Church & State", "U.S. Constitution", "Bill of Rights", "Freedom of Speech", etc. Reposting below course reference, one of the quizes in this course (along with Q&A summarized -- and I've added some reference links to the answers to help verify the correctness of the answers)...
*****

1) As for refreshing our high school studies and understanding of "Separation of Church & State" as it relates to our founding documents, you will find many good course on the pbs.org website - one of the best of many that I found on the pbs.org website follows (a grade level 10-12 short course with several quizes to take - I've summarized the Q&A of one of the quizes below also), but you can do a search on the pbs website and find many courses and materials relating to our U.S. Constitution, founders, and founding documents, etc.:

Church and State Separation: The Challenge and Debate
Grade level: 10-12
Subjects: U.S. Government, Civics

http://www.pbs.org/flashpointsusa/20040127/educators/

< snip- "Introduction">
"Introduction: The United States Constitution's First Amendment prohibits the government from favoring a specific religion or passing legislation to establish an official, national religion. This clause is known as the separation of church and state. Because of the clause's vague language, there is an interpretive element that has resulted in myriad legal battles. Some of the most recent center on issues such as abortion, school prayer, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, same-sex marriage, and the right to die. These challenge the Supreme Court to make sometimes controversial decisions as it deciphers the clause in order to protect individuals' freedom of religion rights. These issues are likely to arise during the 2004 presidential election, as well."
< end of snip > For full text of the short course: http://www.pbs.org/flashpointsusa/20040127/educators/

One of the quizes in the above pbs.org refresher course follows below: (I've summarized the Q&A below &added some references and links)

What Do You Know About
The Separation of State and Church?"



1. Where in the U.S. Constitution does it say that the United States was founded as a Christian nation, based on the sovereign authority of God?

* nowhere.
Our nation was founded as a secular government, based on the authority of "We, the People," not a god, king, or dictator.


2. How many times does the word "God" appear in the U.S. Constitution?

Zero(0).
The U.S. Constitution does not contain the word "God" in it at all.

3. How many times does the Declaration of Independence refer to Christianity or Jesus?

* Zero(0).
There is no mention of Jesus, Christ, Christianity, religious persecution, or religious freedom in the Declaration of Independence.
* Note: My personal note from my studies during this course & quizes on this 3rd question: The closet mention of anything spiritual in the Declaration of Independence is in the first paragraph of the Declaration: "... to dissolve the Political Bands... to which the laws of Nature and of Nature's God.." and in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence: " that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."). Neither of these two references relate to a specific God or religion and the Declaration of Indepence has no mention of Jesus, Christ, Christianity, etc. at all.

4. The US Constitution guarantees religious liberty for Christians, all religions, atheist & agnotics, or
all 3 of these?

* all 3 of the these.
Religious liberty is meaningless unless we all have it. Freedom From Religion Foundation president Anne Gaylor says, "There can be no religious freedom without the freedom to dissent."

5. Where did the separation of church and state originate? (France, Soveit Union, US, or Nazi Germany)?

* United States of America.
The U.S.A. was the first nation in history to separate church and state.

6. What does the First Amendment say about religion?

* Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting free exercise.
The First Amendment begins with these words: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; . . ." The two clauses are referred to, respectively, as the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause.

7. The phrase "wall of separation between church and state" originated with?

* a letter written by President Thomas Jefferson.
President Thomas Jefferson coined this phrase in a carefully crafted letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut in 1802. It has since been widely picked up and invoked in major Supreme Court decisions. Re: http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
* President Thomas Jefferson's letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause ( Ref: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1 AMENDMENT I) that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

8. Which early colonies practiced freedom of religion?

* Roger Williams' Providence settlement
... Trick question! Roger Williams' Providence settlement founded in 1656 expressly guaranteed religious freedom. However, the Pilgrims originally were a tolerant people, when they founded Plymouth in 1620. By 1691, the Pilgrims had adopted the theocratic, intolerant Calvinism of the Puritans, who founded the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1628. The Puritans came to this land expressly to establish a bible commonwealth, and banished "heretics" and dissenters. In Virginia, heresy was a capital offense punishable by death by burning. Quakers were particularly persecuted. People who were not orthodox Christians were not legally protected, could be denied civil rights and jailed. The founders of the new nation of the United States of America, conversant with extreme religious intolerance and violence in the several colonies, were determined to put an end to it. That is why they established state/church separation.

9. The Puritans escaped religious persecution and, in their own colony, allowed religious freedom for everyone, all Christians, or Puritans only?

* Puritans only.
Puritans (Congregational Calvinists) only were allowed. Even practicing Puritans were held to strict litmus tests. (The Puritans loved religious freedom so much that they kept it all to themselves.)

10. Where does the phrase ". . . the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; . . ." appear?

* U.S. treaty signed by President Adams.
In 1797 the United States entered into a treaty with Tripoli, in which it was declared:

* "As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquillity of Musselmen . . . it is declared . . . that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." This treaty was written under Washington's presidency, and it was ratified by Congress under John Adams, signed by Adams.

11. By an Act of Congress, U.S. currency has carried the motto "In God We Trust" since when?

* 1957.
In 1955, Congress passed a law requiring that "In God We Trust" appear on all U.S. coins and currency. The first paper currency with the motto appeared in 1957. This was right after the McCarthy era, during the early Cold War, when no congressperson would dare be seen voting against "God." "In God We Trust" did appear occasionally on a few coins, starting with a 2-cent piece in the 1860s, in an attempt (it is surmised) to put "God" on the side of the north during the Civil War. In 1956, an Act of Congress adopted "In God We Trust" as a national motto. The original motto, "E Pluribus Unum" ("out of many, one,") celebrating plurality, still appears on the Presidential Seal and on some paper currency.

12. The Pledge of Allegiance, first published in 1892, has included the words "under God" since when?

* 1954.
As with "In God We Trust," "under God" is also a Johnny-come-lately. It was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy era. The original pledge was first published on September 8, 1892 in the magazine "Youth's Companion" with no reference to a deity.

13. Who made the following statement?

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . We need believing people."

* Adolf Hitler.
April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.

14. In 1890, bible reading was outlawed from Wisconsin schools. Who was responsible?

* a Roman Catholic family.
A Roman Catholic family objected to the exclusive use of the Protestant King James Version of the bible. The court barred all bible reading from Wisconsin public schools. . Catholicism was a small minority in 19th-century America. It is usually minority groups who need the protection of the Bill of Rights (Re: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/bill_of_rights.html ).

15. The U.S. Supreme Court outlawed student-initiated prayers at high-school football games in 2000. Who were the plaintiffs in that lawsuit?

* Roman Catholic and Mormon families.
The Texas lawsuit was taken by a Catholic family and a Mormon family who had children who were being harassed by the born-again majority in the public schools.

16. According to the "Lemon test," in order to be constitutional, a law or public act must have a secular purpose, have a primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion, not result in excessive governmental entanglement with religion, or all 3?:
all 3 are correct.
The 3-pronged Lemon test Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971)
(Re: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=4038&invol=602), (which dealt with public aid to private schools) has almost consistently been utilized by the Supreme Court since the early 1970s. ALL THREE prongs of the test must be satisfied.
17. All American Presidents have been practicing Christians True or False?

False. John Adams, John Q. Adams, Millard Fillmore and William H. Taft were Unitarians*. Jefferson was a Deist/Freethinker. Harrison, Johnson, Grant and Hayes were not members of a church. Lincoln was a Deist. Etc. (*Although some Unitarians of that time considered themselves "Christians," they rejected the Trinity and other doctrines that most Christians today consider essential.)

18. The U.S. Constitution says there shall be no religious test for public office True or False?

True. Article VI:

" . . . but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

19. John Adams declared Christmas to be a national holiday True or False?

False. Christmas was outlawed in some colonies. Alabama was the first state to make it a holiday in 1836. By 1890, all other states had done likewise.
Re: Holiday Origins Website (Christmas & Other Religious & Miscellaneous Holiday History at http://www.holidayorigins.com/html/christmas.html )

20. A president, being sworn in, is required to place a hand on the Holy Bible and say "so help me, God." True or False?

False. The oath of office does not mention a deity or the bible:

"Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--'I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.' " This is the only oath given in the Constitution, and it is entirely secular.

21. Since the First Amendment deals with "Congress," states are free to advance religion if they wish.True or False?

False. The 14th Amendment makes the entire Bill of Rights applicable to the states. The first Supreme Court case to declare a state's religious practices illegal under the 14th Amendment was the McCollum case (1948) which removed religious instruction from the public schools.
Re: Supreme Court case: "Illinois ex rel. McCollum v. Board of Ed. of School Dist. No. 71, Champaign Cty., 333 U. S. 203 (1948)"

Links to Historical Documents
U.S. National Archives & Records Administration


The Declaration of Independence: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/declaration.html

The Constitution of the United States: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/declaration.html

The Bill of Rights: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/bill_of_rights.html

Constitutional Amendments 11-27: http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/constitution_amendments_11-27.html

About the US Supreme Court
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/about.html

Where to Obtain US Supreme Court Opinions:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/obtainopinions.pdf

The Avalon Project at Yale University School of Law
The Federalist Papers:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed.htm

2) A good reference to study & be able to correctly rebut some of the religious-right myths and arguments:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/tnpidx.htm

3)Article: (an interesting article on the subject...)
1) Evangelical Religion vs. Our Founding Fathers (by Joan Porte): http://www.opednews.com/porte_112304_evangelicals.htm
<snip...>
"George Bush pulled himself into the White House for another four years on the robes of evangelical Christians and other members of the religious right who crave a return to “moral and traditional values.” Theirs is a desire to live in a country controlled by strict Biblical precepts where gays are legally restricted to the closet and women follow St. Paul ’s instructions to be submissive. This is a world where guns are plentiful, preemptive war acceptable and the death penalty in fashion but using stem cells slated for the trashcan to treat epidemic illnesses is “sinful” because it constitutes murder. They allow free speech as long as it conforms to their definitions of religious purity. They are at peace with a man running the country and thus the world who says as Mr. Bush did at the Southern Baptist Convention, “I believe that God wants me to be president.” Jerry Falwell in his “Moral Majority Report” called for the Christianization of America. “If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth ... We need to pull out all the stops to recruit and train 25 million Americans to become informed pro-moral activists whose voices can be heard in the halls of Congress. . . . . "
<... end of snip>
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think it's based on destroying Democracy.
..and I know I'm in the minority around here, however, my differing is subtly different than the usual conclusion people push on me with their quick jump.

Just calling for the separation I liken to misquoting the Bible as saying money is the root of all evil. The "love" of money is the root of all evil. Jefferson hoped the first amendment would "build" a wall of separation; not that a wall of separation itself would do any good work for anything at all. Some later wise guys decided that separation would do good work and even replace the first amendment's freedoms. I call this: planting a seed of dissension, dissension to undermine messy messy democracy and its associated messy messy freedoms.

Now this "line" of separation becomes thinner and thinner. I won't dignify it by calling it a wall here, it has become a line, a silly little line. (Is the microphone paid for by some/any federal money versus donated by a special group. ) Ridiculous.

I say Jefferson was correct the first time. Let fights over religious difference end in fight of conflicting rights. And, I bet that a wall will develop and it will widen and widen and widen.

Someone wants to pray over the microphone. Sorry, we have no right to silence. Force another to pray. No. Not if its against his practice of religion -- it is his right to free practice versus the other person's right to force religious practice which, oh my, does not exist, case closed. Want to put up a ten-commandments statue in a court? Not if it means to intimidate those seeking justice. Justice is the first thing, the first thing, we do establish in the Constitution.

Build a better wall, not some wimpy little line. A little line over which we and argue and argue and argue until we divide our nations people destroying a rule by the people -- democracy.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. The constitution being a living breathing document...
For example...

"Congress shall make now law establishing a national religion" (Not the exact quote but something to that effect)

Congress funds public schools. If there is organized prayer in public schools, congress is funding a national religion, this is unconstitutional.
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. James Madison
Wrote a little document called "Memorial and Remonstrance" in which he lays out 15 points against an established church, and for freedom of religion. Google it and read it. It's brilliant.
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zmdem Donating Member (546 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. The legal basis is the 1st amendment
Edited on Thu Dec-09-04 01:51 AM by zmdem
Which strictly speaking is a non-establishment clause, rather than a seperation. Prior to the 14th amendment, the NE clause was operative only on the federal government. The equal protection clause of the 14th came to be interpreted as applying the NE clause to state legislaures as well. As to the personal thoughts of the founders on this issue, there are quite a few - often contradictory depending on the person and whether the views expressed were public or private. Prior to the adoption of our current constitution, the various states also had laws in this regard.

Consider The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachussets, (John Adams), the Virginia Declaration of Rights (Th. Jefferson), James Madison's "Detached Memorandum", and Geo. Washington's "Farewell Address to the Nation" as examples of public thought on the matter. For private expressions, see the letters between Adams and Jefferson from late in their lives.

Views on this subject varied then, as they do now.

ON EDIT: Google on these for good source material:
founders constitution
avalon project
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