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Wrong Turn at Albuquerque: Dean Stumbles at the Democratic Debate

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:23 AM
Original message
Wrong Turn at Albuquerque: Dean Stumbles at the Democratic Debate
It's not easy being the front-runner.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2087877 /

<edit>

Lieberman's attack on Dean elicits excited "ooohs" from the reporters watching the debate on television in the hall's basement. Lieberman brings up Dean's opposition to trading with countries that do not have the same labor and environmental standards as the United States, and he calls it "stunning": "He said he would not have bilateral trade agreements with any country that did not have American standards. That would mean we would not have trade agreements with Mexico, with most of the rest of the world. That would cost us millions of jobs." Then, after peppering Dean with jabs, Lieberman rears back to throw the knockout punch: If Dean were elected president and carried out his promised trade policies, "The Bush recession would be followed by the Dean depression."

Later, to drive the point home, the Lieberman campaign circulates a press release entitled, "HOWARD DEAN'S PROTECTIONIST TRADE POLICY WOULD DEVASTATE AMERICA'S ECONOMY."

Dean counters by insisting that trade agreements need mere "international standards," not American standards, on labor and the environment. But that's not what he told the Washington Post (as the Lieberman campaign helpfully points out in its release) on Aug. 25. More important from my perspective, it's the exact opposite of what Dean told me when I rode with him in July on his campaign van in Iowa. When I asked Dean if he meant just general "standards" or "American standards," he insisted that he would demand that other countries adopt the exact same labor, environmental, health, and safety standards as the United States. But the audience wasn't riding with me, and they rally to Dean in his time of need, applauding wildly. Lieberman is left to lamely reply, "That's a reassuring change of position."

Dean makes another shocking flip flop in the debate. After repeatedly saying on previous occasions that the United States can't abandon its obligations in Iraq, he now implies that he wants to withdraw American troops from the region: "We need more troops. They're going to be foreign troops, not more American troops, as they should have been in the first place. Ours need to come home."

more...
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Sweetpea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is a tough game politics, eh?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. It was a cheap shot
The people in the audience knew it, we knew it and the voters knew it too. Let the reporters ooh and aah and do other nasty things. Don't let's turn this into an opportunity to bash Dean when he doesn't deserve it. He did a great job.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. typical pundit revisionism
Reminds me of Gore's convention speech when intial "focus groups" rated if off the charts and the pundits went into overdrive to poo-poo it.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
44. Yes, SNS. Dean did a great job and I must say I was proud of
everyone except for Holy Joe. We all know why.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. The critique of that Iraq bit is a big stretch
Dean is saying what a lot of sensible people are saying: Internationalize the conflict, bring in the UN, and get the American troops out, as they are symbols of hatred now and causing more problems than they solve.

How on earth does that qualify as 'abandoning obligations'? He's not saying we should just bail. He's actually providing the best cure.

As for the labor standards, it may have been a flip-flop. But it is damned reassuring to see a candidate talking about international labor standards. Without them, our middle class will cease to exist, and much of the world will get raped.

Methinks this author has an agenda. That last bit about Iraq was just strange.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. BTW, your guy did pretty damn good tonight.
Up there w/Gebhardt.
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cherryperry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Jimmy:
Who's YOUR choice? hmmmmmmmm?
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Jim supports Dean
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. Yes, Dean is the guy.
:thumbsup:
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cherryperry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:32 AM
Original message
uh, this came up twice!
Edited on Fri Sep-05-03 12:33 AM by cherryperry
No choice to delete here, so I'm doing the best I can...
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Me too.
What is his agenda? Dean is going to have to get used to this type of sucker punch though. I think he's up for it.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'm sure they're on it
There's no way that any assertion that Lieberpuke's pathetic spectacle was anything other than a pathetic spectacle can be allowed to stand. I was very impressed by the most of the candidates tonight and surprised and pleased at the lack of attacks from most of them.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. The journos are circle jerking in the green room again
Someone should bring a camera in there next debate and every debate thereafter so we can watch them dropping all pretense of "objectivity."
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. The author has an agenda.
No doubt about it. Dean's answer was actually the best, and was well recieved...lots of people around me nodding in agreement.

This article seems like a bit of a hatchet job...

But, the knives are most surely out for Dean.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. I suspect the real issue here is that every politician who
has tried to work through the issue of international trade knows the exact reason the US can't demand American standards of its trading partners, and that the issue between right and left is along the axis of "how do we work towards more American-like standards" and "how can we lower American standards, and rip off the rest of the working world too". I suspect the candidates who are more versed in the issues of trade get upset when they hear a candidate scoring political points saying things that are already intensely-contemplated and settled issues.

Maybe. Maybe not.
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cherryperry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. I love Love LOVE your signature line!!!
Duck and cover if any Deanies get onto this thread :hi: .
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cherryperry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. oops, 2 have entered the fray:
Ping;

Ping;

I told you to duck! :bounce:
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Actually, I suppress sig lines.
So if someone has a dumbshit insult to Dean in his/her sig line, I won't even see it.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Of course we will be on the thread and everyone is having a
civil discourse about what the writer whipped up!
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cherryperry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. zidzi:
What did you think of Moseley-Braun and Kucinich?

too left for you?

In this debate anyway, they both were my 1st choice!
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. I thought Mosely-Braun was outstanding.
I know you addressed this to Zidzi but I was very impressed by her this evening. Sorry to say, I think Kucinich needs to stick to the issues. His "Hello" quip was childish.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
30. I thought his "hello" was hilarious...
...but he and Ambassador Mosely-Braun BOTH were wonderful!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. No they're not too "left"...I just don't get excited by their personas..
I think this is good for all of our candidates to learn from each other and hopefully the People will be the Winners!
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
37. Thanks
It's one of the few things my brain tries to keep memorized (add in "The Puffin" and the hard drive is pretty much full). It's too bad we don't have a few more Mario Savios around today. The Free Speech Movement was before my time, but Savio seems pretty amazing.

If you like the quote, you might like this book:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/08/12_...

Fresh, behind-the-scenes look at Free Speech Movement in new book by UC Berkeley, NYU professors

Berkeley - It's been nearly 40 years since the Free Speech Movement exploded onto the University of California, Berkeley, campus, changing the political atmosphere at colleges and universities across the country and providing generations to come with a model for student activism. Yet, few scholars or veterans of the movement have fully explored its origins, development and legacy.

Two history professors hope their new book, "The Free Speech Movement: Reflections on Berkeley in the 1960s," (University of California Press) will give readers a fuller, more complex view.

<edit>

Key Free Speech Movement leaders, including Mario Savio, were heavily influenced by the Civil Rights Movement, launched as African Americans sought to end segregation in the South. Two of the essays examine this link. The main section of the book examines and illuminates the history of the Free Speech Movement, launched when campus administrators sought to bar students from setting up tables and passing out political literature on campus property. That administrative decision led to sit-ins, mass arrests, and a push by students for broader rights to advocate on campus for political causes.

The final sections of the book examine the aftermath of the movement and provide a closer look at Savio, its charismatic leader, who died in 1996 at age 53. Savio's premature death inspired the editors to undertake this book project in his memory.

more...
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. liberman is the republicans
dream democrat .they like him enough to put him on their website as a democrat that supports bush`s war...i`d never vote for him.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Republican policy from a Dem mouth
sounds just really extra pukey. Maybe it'll help people to realize it when they hear how much more intelligent Democratic policy sounds when they hear Republican spew without the 'right wing hype'.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
45. Very well said rchsod, Holy Joe is the repug's "wet dream"...
Has everyone here noticed the influx of freepers with their "Joe Lieberman was the best; Joe Lieberman stood out from the rest....blah blah blah."

Hey Freepers, we get it! You want Holy Joe to be the nominee so bad that you have to come trolling over here.

Well, it ain't gonna happen. No matter who runs, be afraid, be very afraid. <actually it appears that you guys are>.

These kinds of "fake" posts will only fire us up to donate to our favorite candidate. How's that for counterpunching?

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. No change of position on the number of U.S. troops in Iraq
Edited on Fri Sep-05-03 12:36 AM by w4rma
Dean Presents 7-Point Plan for Multilateral Reconstruction in Iraq
Wednesday April 9, 2003

A NATO-led coalition should maintain order and guarantee disarmament.
Civilian authority in Iraq should be transferred to an international body approved by the U.N. Security Council.

A democratic transition will take between 18 to 24 months, although troops should expect to be in Iraq for a longer period.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArtic...

Also, this statement in the article is wrong:
The best thing Dean does during the debate is refuse to pander to the Albuquerque audience by spewing tortured Spanish

I remember Dean speaking Spanish (I don't know what he said) at the podium.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
32. They ALL spoke tortured Spanish...
...except for Mosely-Braun. Oh, did Edwards?

P.S. None of them were pandering; this debate was co-sponsored by Univision, a Spanish-language television network. I thought it was great that they ACKNOWLEDGED the latino community -- poorly or no.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. I had a question about the moderation
The woman who was moderating prefaced her questions in Spanish...was there some mechanism I was not aware of that was translating the candidates' answers into Spanish for Spanish-speaking viewers? It just seemed kind of odd to ask the questions in Spanish if there was no answer in Spanish.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I don't know
All I know was the event was co-sponsored by Univision. I assume the candidates' answers were translated, though. The woman moderator is one of the regular anchors on Univision.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Yes. The broadcast was translated into Spanish simultaneously on
a second audio channel.

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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. According to someone who is fluent...
(First language Spanish)

Dean speaks it very, very well...the rest should not do it again! :-)

I don't speak but a tiny bit, but she was impressed with the Gov. The critiques of the others was in jest...people appreciated the attempt...
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nbsmom Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. Hmmmmm...

That was a pretty stinky assessment of 90 minutes of debate. I'd also venture a guess that the majority of the piece was written before 8:00, the better to focus attention on the real game back in Washington.

What a pile of equine excrement.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Good Ass essment from you!
God how they can spin right into the quicksand.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. SO we know how the media whores reacted....
"Lieberman's attack on Dean elicits excited "ooohs" from the reporters watching the debate on television in the hall's basement. "


Yeah, and he got BOOOS from the democrats in the audience.... should tell you something that the lame attack on Dean was the only thing during the debate that got booed.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Sounds like a job for MWO.
Shall we?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. lieberman got booed for attacking Dean...Beautiful!
And whether the pundits and the coroporations know it or Not this election is about The People...not the reporters/whores.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Did the groans and boos come thru on the broadcast audio?
Lieberman made a mistake going after Dean...bad move, looked desperate.

Off camera, Dean just flashed a BIG grin...then he gets the next question...
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Yep.
came through loud and clear! I was heartened to hear it.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. Great!
Dumb move by Joe.

People really seemed shocked, then pissed....
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Yes, loud and clear.
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boilerbabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. Dean didn't stumble
not from what i caught anyway...he replied that the UN should be overseeing the reconstruction of Iraq, and he also said that he was against the action and for reasons that were obvious...like Al Quaeda (oopps did i mispell that one?? it looks funny) were not involved with Saddam, also the lack of evidence on the yellow cake (I prefer chocolate) and WMDs. Sure, Saddam was an asshole that needed to be displaced, but the way Bush and Co. went about it, was totally WRONG.

Oh well, it's all a matter of perception, isn't it? I DO remember thinking that Ross Perot made more sense than any other person in a debate I saw, then look at how flaky that boy turned out to be!!

I guess I am a DEANIE-WEENIE!!!

XXXOOO
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Dean didn't "stumble"...they just obviously want to write what
they take for "drama"...who knows what faulty glasses this guy was looking through.
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Vernunft Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
42. The point is that the US is far behind
the standards of other civilized nations. Dean doesnt want US standards because he knows that damn well. He wants to improve the place.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
43. Much ado over nothing
This is just Chris Suellentrop's style. He has a knack of grabbing hold of statements and expounding on them with loaded language, making them seem more significant or more absurd than they really are. I remember a piece he did on Cynthia Mckinney a while back that (rather effectively) made her into some sort paranoid and delusional conspiracy theorist.

Chris is a bit too far to the right for my taste, as the emphasis and the omsissions in this article illustrate- but hey, at least the guy is literate and reasonably well read, which is more than anyone can say about the majority of the right-wing or right-leaning "opinion leaders" these days.
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tedoll78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
46. Hmm.. this seems inconsistent with..
the other mainstream media articles I've read about the debate. I've read a NYT story, an AP story, etc.. none of them are painting the debate in such a "Dean Blew It!" spin.

Lieberman's attacks, Gephardt's animation and word choice, Dean's playing it safe as the alleged frontrunner, a general atmosphere of hyper-articulated Bush bashing.. these seem to be the main themes I'm noticing in articles covering this event.

Of course, this is still a worthwhile article here to read; it might be indicative of what is ahead for Dean.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
47. I didn't think he was the best last night
but he far from "stumbled".

And he did score big with his response to Joe.His eyes lit up when Joe tried to dis him.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
48. I thought he did really well
and I think he builds with every televised appearence he makes. The only drawback I found was I wanted to hear from him more.

I thought his reply to Lieberman was perfect. He was poised and calm and was Dean. It was very contrived on Liebermans part and it came off really flat and forced.

Another great point was in Deans opening statement where he mentioned the rightful humiliation for this Administration in returning to the UN. So true and up to this point, everyone has skirted the issue of true audacity of this Administration to basically flip off the UN and then go back and say can you help us now?

Tonight I thought he did perfectly for someone who is in the lead and didnt want to over do anything and not under play it, but just get more aware of his surroundings and the whole art of the presidential debating deal.

I hope he says to HELL with anyone who doesnt like how he "does". Beauty and debates are in the eye of the beholder.

And as we can see, EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION. So do any of them really matter? Not really. Not unless we allow them to.

and LET THESE CRITICS COME UP AND try to debate. For that matter let them try to do what Howard Dean has done for this country in this short span of time period.

Hes got the insight and knows what America needs.


***I would like to post this on the DFA blog, and cant figure out how to sign on. Im probably looking in the wrong place. I know its probably elementary *** Can someone provide some blog 101? I would appreciate it.
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JackSwift Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-05-03 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
49. Lieberman is a republican plant
and was in 2000.
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