Your Socio-Economic Status

[UdoKier]

Poll question: Your Socio-Economic Status

I'm going to try and quantify this by living standards rather than by income, which can be deceptive given the huge disparities in cost of living between regions.


Your Socio-Economic Status, measured by what you can afford.

These are just ballpark ideas. IE-If you live in Manhattan, you may not need a car - that doesn't mean you're "welfare poor", please use judgment.

NOTE: The references to "college" do not refer to your own education, but your ABILITY to PAY for your children's college education.

[mhr]

1. Unemployed 53 Months - No Prospects In Sight

eom

[UdoKier]

3. Damn, since before Dumbya?

Are you disabled? Rust belt? Man, good luck to you.

[mhr]

12. Dallas, TX - Look At What Dubya Did To The Local Economy

This chart comes form the Dallas Federal Reserve.

[RivetJoint]

25. Move to San Anotnio

They seem to be doing lots better than Dallas...

[mhr]

31. No Contacts, No Money, No Job There

They Are Doing Well Because of Defense.

Just Like Houston Is Doing Well Because Of Oil.

[RivetJoint]

32. GO there

make some contacts, find a job.

If the jobs won't come to you, go to the jobs!

[mhr]

33. What Part Of No Money Don't You Understand!

eom

[RivetJoint]

34. So you can't even LOOK for a job

anywhere other than Dallas?

[TahitiNut]

54. Job SEARCHES are national (and international).

The idea of moving to FIND a job is nonsense - a throwback to a time long past. Over 90% of people hired obtain that job through referral: "networking." The rest come from a mix of various kinds of published job offers - 'published' on the Web. In that mix, the vast majority of people who are hired are already employed. Employers have a built-in resistance to hiring the unemployed, especially through other than a referral from a current employee. Today, even newspapers have resorted to the various employment websites like Monster and DICE.

[RivetJoint]

56. My point is that sometimes

one must go to where the jobs are, not wait for the jobs to come to you.

[TahitiNut]

62. The "point" is simplistic nonsense.

One must "go" to a found job, not a myth/hope/pig-in-a-poke. One does not "go" to find a job ... one "goes" to a found job.

Step 1: Find job.
Step 2: Be hired for that job.
Step 3: Relocate.

You can't jump to Step 3 and assume that Step 1 or 2 is even partially accomplished, unless you're talking about McJobs in some fast food joint or Wal-Mart greeter jobs. Even then, those jobs don't require relocation - just commuting.

[RivetJoint]

67. Not True at all

I know MANY people who have MOVED to the N Va area and THEN found jobs upon arrival. Your "one size fits all" doesn't work.

And that doesn't take into account the large number of immigrants who move to this area BEFORE landing a job.

[TahitiNut]

75. Horseshit.

First, just what "large number of immigrants" are you talking about? Migrant laborers? Illegal immigrants? People who aren't legally permitted to work in the U.S.? Dependents of people with H-1 visas, people with student visas, and people with tourist visas aren't legally permitted to work in the U.S. Are dishonest employers hiring such people? Ubetcha. Typically for pay that's 20-50% below market in jobs where the employee's legal rights are ignored. The failure to enforce these laws is part of the problem - but those aren't employers that'll hire an honest citizen.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, we're not talking about "McJobs" here - not casual day labor, not Wal-Mart greeters, not stock clerks in retail stores, and not seasonal construction jobs. The topic is finding employment that even loosely matches the skills and experience of someone with a college degree and at least ten years of "knowledge worker" experience.

If we were talking about a "McJob" then relocation is even more pointless, since such "jobs" (if they can be called that) can be found within a commute of 25 miles or so of about 95% of the population - certainly anyone on DU.

But let's for a moment say we are talking about something somewhat above the level of a "McJob" and an adult over the age of 35-40 with a college degree. While I'd guess you wouldn't believe it (judging from the false beliefs you seem to possess in abundance), employers typically refuse to hire that "overqualified" person for such a job. (I have a great deal of first- and second-hand experience in just that fact over the past 15 years.)

You say you "know MANY people who have MOVED ... and THEN found jobs upon arrival."

Yeah. Right. :eyes: The Internet is full of folks who "know somebody."

I seriously doubt you know anyone who, for the sole purpose of employment of the kind of job we're discussing, moved before finding the job. That's a recipe for homelessness. Do people move along with a spouse who was hired? Sure. Do people move for other reasons and then find employment? Sometimes. Otherwise, it's a stupid waste of money - money that an unemployed person can't afford to waste. If you can afford to waste it, more power to you.

Again - the process of finding such a job and getting hired DOES NOT benefit from moving. No way. No how. Travel for interviews? Sure. Travel for door-knocking? Maybe, but that's a VERY low probability approach.

[pnb]

83. Not necessarily horseshit

Because you are speaking in terms of absolutes. No one is saying those things WILL happen but they certainly CAN happen and they wouldn't be freak occurences either. I am an example of it being able to happen.

In addition, you are the only person who "has pointed out repeatedly" that only CERTAIN jobs count. Who are you to decide what would be the "proper" job for someone to move to? You think people have never moved to a new area that had more opportunity then their current locale and worked a McJob temporarily until they took advantage of the greater opportunity?

Obviously, as you say, there are people out there that this will be difficult or impossible for for any number of reasons. But you are dead wrong to just dismiss the idea altogether.

[Swamp Rat]

100. No, TahitiNut is right: "horseshit" is the correct word.

[MsTryska]

76. Actually step 3 might be a better starting place.

most companies won't hire someone form out of town.

get an in town address, it makes it easier to find the job int hat town.

[TahitiNut]

77. Companies hire people from "out of town" all the time.

Sometimes they pay relocation; sometimes they don't. The "job market" for the kind of jobs we're talking about is always one that makes relocation probable. (We're NOT talking about "McJobs".)

[MsTryska]

79. Mmm....my experience is that the

majority don't.


i suppose it depends on what exactly you are applying for, but jsut from being on the HR/Recruiting side of things here in Atlanta, local candidates always take precedence.


especially when you factor in the added expense of relo.

[pnb]

80. I agree with you although maybe just its an Atlanta thing

I moved down here 4 and a half years ago from NY without having an official job lined up. I had come to visit first and talk to people plus lots of phone calls and had been told by many people, yes will hire you or yes we can find you what you are looking for but like you also said, most couldn't actually officially do anything until I actually MOVED here.

Did the move and a week and half later was officially hired for the position I still hold today and love.

[MsTryska]

81. Similar to me!

I moved from NY to Atlanta, 9 years ago, with nothing but savings i had socked away specifically for the move, after leaving school.


Ihad a friend down here, so we got an apartment together, and then i started working temp secretarial jobs, until i got a permanent position. From their, even tho i got laid off once a year, i've been working at one place or another, pretty much increasing salary at every stop along the way until 9/11.

since then it's been rough, but it just turned the corner and hopefully will be much better from here on in.

[datasuspect]

38. i'm in the same boat

i'd love to leave here.

i guess i could catch out on a westbound freight or hitchhike somewhere.

i've lived out in the streets before, i guess i can find a job with no address in a strange town where i don't know anybody.

no money no money no money

i feel like i'm shutting down

[MsTryska]

78. No address, no job

no job, no address.


if the straits are that dire, don't leave your town.

[donheld]

86. mhr i'd be very glad to judge you

but i'm petrified of having to walk in your shoes so i'll refrain.

[private_ryan]

92. how are you going to solve this then ?

will you be here 50 months from now and say I've been unemployeed for 100+ months? Get any job, deliver pizza or whatever and save. It's extra money since you are living without that money anyway. Make it and save to search for the good job.

The more you wait the worse it is since companies will wonder why didn't you work or why you couldn't find a job for this long. Blamign on Bush is not going to work on the job interview, many people got jobs meanwhile. Not great jobs, but jobs.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

48. Some people don't have that flexibility

no money means no first-last-security deposit to put on an apartment.

no contacts mean no safety net like family and friends who can help you out in a pinch.

no job in a new city in a bad economy means there are others in competition with you for that position, and they generally take someone who has been recently employed. I went through this myself after a layoff. Companies are wary of hiring those that have been unemployed long-term.

Spare us your patronizing attitude...

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

52. Yes, it is both harsh AND patronizing

do you know the poster's life circumstances? Who are you to judge?

:wtf:

[RivetJoint]

53. You have a valid point

However, I've seen a number of his posts where he says he is former navy and a pilot, etc. Seems to me, if they are no jobs where you are, go to where the jobs are.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

57. If he is over 50, it also may be harder for him to get a job

there is rampant age discrimination in our society...

there are also life circumstances that make it impossible to move (illness, injury to self or family).

I just wanted to point out that you are expressing a typical Republican point of view. Bush has expressed this on many occasions. He truly believes that people are poor because they want to be that way. I have never been poor as an adult but as the result of three layoffs in three years I nearly lost my properties.

To quote Jesus or some other old philosopher, "never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes".

[RivetJoint]

58. You've not read the posters

many other posts...I have.

I did NOT state he was poor becasue he wnated to be. I meerly stated that sometimes one has to get off one's ass and get out there and fight.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RivetJoint]

68. Really?

So only Rush believes that sometimes one must relocate in order to chase a job?

I'm so glad you know Rush's talking points so well--because I don't. Thanks for enlightening us.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RivetJoint]

70. Only Rightwingers

believe in relocating to land a job? I didn't realize that...thanks for pointing it out.

[Forkboy]

72. Nope,only rightwingers do so with an attitude that drips disdain

[RivetJoint]

73. Your inference is incorrect

One of the problems with this type forum is that others can not always tell the vein in which something is intended. My apologies.

[Forkboy]

74. thank you

there is a general sense of disdain in too many of the threads here comcerning the poor.

My apologies for jumping down your throat.

[Surikat]

6. Damn! That's harsh... and I've been bitching because...

...my consulting practice was in the toilet for about 9 months this year.

[Surikat]

2. I sure am a square peg in a poll full of round holes...

I sorta fit in about four of those slots, but not really any of them. :-)

[distantearlywarning]

66. Another square peg here too.

Rent an apt, drive used cars, have student loans, but can easily pay for college and we take vacations wherever we want, and we have no appreciable consumer debt. I think we are just living lower than our means. I don't know what category that puts us in.

We could afford more - our rent is significantly less than 1/4 of our income. But why bother? Everything the media tells us we "want" is a big freakin' waste of money and feeds the corporate whores.

We save more than $1000 a month. Maybe that money will help us leave the country when they start putting people like us in camps. That would be better than a new car!

[UdoKier]

4. Hey! Upper middle class!

Spot me a fifty 'til Friday?

[datasuspect]

30. HEY! wait a minute

DESTITUTE

if you get that fifty, spot me some spare change for my capital improvement (beer) fund

[grasswire]

5. you missed a category, I think

Retirement age on fixed income, no health insurance available until age 65, dwindling meager assets.

[eridani]

7. Yes, that should be added.

Middle class fits me best, though you should probably have a voluntary simplicity category. We have a 2 bedroom house, poor neighborhood but totally paid off, 1 car, no indebtedness, reasonably well paid jobs, very conservative investments.

[UdoKier]

9. There's no perfect way to measure this on a DU poll, it's too complex.

But income is a poor measure. $40K buys a VERY comfortable lifestyle in El Paso, TX. It gets you crap in NY or SF.

If the category descriptions don't fit, just pick intuitively, I guess. I'm sure a lot of people overlap.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

50. 40K and you can't afford to buy a house in Boston

my sister makes that and qualifies for low-income housing assistance. She is buy a city of Somerville condo for a low price. The income ceiling is 63K for a single person, 70K for two or more people. This is how ridiculously expensive the area is.

[dddem]

87. We're considering leaving

After more than a year and a half of being unemployed, my husband took a job that pays half of what he used to earn in order to get health insurance for our kids. We own a home (us and the bank), and always considered ourselves middle class, until this. I will say, for those that have been lucky enough not to have gone through this, it's hard on a person who's spent his adult life doing the same job, and being a loyal employee to get laid off (at almost 50 yrs. old). My husband was in high tech - there are no jobs here. Our home is worth around 400k, and we have a very small mortgage, but now we don't earn enough to qualify for a cash-out refinance. We're beginning to think the best option for us is to sell and relocate elsewhere in the country. It's a scary thought for a couple of middle aged people with kids in high school (only a few short years until college). When president Bush talks about opportunities to further education for people whose jobs have been eliminated, I can tell you, he wasn't talking to me - we have children to feed - there is no money left from your unemployment to pay for classes to re-educate yourself. Oh and by the way, my cousin, who holds a masters degree can't find a job here. Perhaps while he was holding invitation only campaign stops, he should have talked to someone like me before he talks about turning corners and the future of American jobs.
Not that I'm bitter. Much.

[UdoKier]

8. My reason in making this one...

was more out of frustration with wealthy people who call themselves "comfortable", even though they are in the top 5% of income earners, or people who have EVERYTHING they need with no debt but claim to be "middle class".

My Grandmother describes herself as you describe yourself, but she has a paid-off $300K house and probably more in investments. "Fixed Income Seniors" could be anything. I prefer to stick with the living-standard measurement, however crude.

[RivetJoint]

24. One can be midle class and have everything they NEED

with no debt. They may not have everything they WANT, but the are comfortable with what they have.

[cattleman22]

93. For too many people a want = need. n/t

[ElectroPrincess]

29. I agree and suggest that it's the right wing upper middle class

who are the *biggest snobs* as well as the most deluded that they are just barely eking by ... My hood has a sort of "keep up with the Jones" to put a swimming pool in their back yard. My daughter asked me about this and I said, "Honey, you have your own swimming pool. It's only four blocks away from home called "the public pool."

It's sooo inane that people in Northern Virginia strive for maintaining a little natty swimming pool when it's only comfortable to use no more than four months of the year. One of my neighbors lamented that they could not afford such a luxury and even had to refill their own ink cartridges. I was aghast because I wonder if the note on their brand new Mercedes Benz SUV could have cut into their ink cartridge budget this year :P.

I resent snobby upper middle class people often more than the wealthy because they have just earned enough to allow themselves to brag and separate themselves from DA neighbors, i.e., us little people.

[Sugarbleus]

16. Agreed. I put welfare in lieu of "retired/disabled" fixed income

Edited to add: Disabled, former low income working,semi-retired family here. We do live in subsidized housing and receive assistance from state. SSI/SSDI..respectively

Using Medicaid and Medicare, no foodstamps. Raising grandchild within foster care system. Live in cramped, substandard housing. Though not as bad as urban areas--near the ocean. Some college..... Wow, that's like a zogby poll.

[AbbeyRoad]

10. I just want to point out...

that it's possible for one to be a member of the working poor or working class and, at the same time, college educated.

[UdoKier]

11. No. I'm referring to the ability to AFFORD college for your kids.

I'll clarify that. Thanks.

[AbbeyRoad]

13. Ah, ok.

Thanks for the clarification.

[UdoKier]

14. Dang, I thought we democrats were all on the dole!

Welfare is the smallest number thus far. Interesting.

I wonder how many hypocritical freepers are at the teat?

[Piperay]

22. I would bet

plenty of freepers are on the public dole.

[FuzzySlippers]

15. OK, who are these super-rich DUers?

And if either of you are single, heterosexual males, will you marry me?

[Sugarbleus]

17. LOL......n/t

[sr_pacifica]

18. Working poor describes me to a tee

I think you should add something about medical insurance and medical expenses to the definitions.

[UdoKier]

42. Probably should have (too late to edit)

don't know if it would have fit...

[knowbody0]

19. a payday away from losing everything

we try not to attach to the material world, recycle, grow our own food, chickens and ducks. a good life

[hfojvt]

20. I suppose I am middle class

I have no car - do not really want one, and I am certainly not in Manhattan.
My debt is not that bad.
College is a moot point since I will never have kids.
I have a 3 bedroom house, but it is over 100 years old.
By family income, I believe I am at the bottom of the 4th quintile, with 1st being the richest, and six months ago I would have been in the middle of the 5th quintile.
Still by this profile, I am middle class.

[regularjoe]

21. I doubt there will be many homeless people visiting DU

[UdoKier]

41. You would be surprised then.

A lot of the homeless like to surf at the libraries.

They are not all insane or drunk.

[DiverDave]

23. well, I THOUGHT I was middle class.

but, reading your definitions, I just got dropped a notch.
I cant stress this enough, people, if you are working GET SUPPLEMENTAL INSURANCE!!!
I didn't have it, and soon went broke.
Workmans comp just doesn't cover the bills, then you use up any savings to make ends meet.
It's a flushing sort of action, you go around and around while you are going down.
And if you bitch?
You get the "Hey, your lucky that you are getting THIS" speech.
Bottom line?
Don't get injured at work, and GET THAT AFLAC INSURANCE.

[UNIXcock]

26. Lifelong fiscal responsibility and healthy investments ...

... has fortunately made life comfortable for my family. However, we regularly tithe to the church and contribute both time and money to charitable causes in the local community and State. I'm of the belief that even on a modest income almost anyone can assure a more stable future by spending smart, living healthy and investing in your future. It's not always fun, easy or glamorous, but as you get older it becomes second nature. The ability to help others is the most rewarding part of independent wealth.

[cattleman22]

35. Great post!

This is exactly the plan my wife and I have. The key is living below your means and saving for a rainy day. This goes in contrast to American consumerism.

My wife and I are post graduate college students. I drive a 14 year old car and my wife drives and 11 year old car. Yet, in the 5 years we have been married, we have made sure to fund our emergency fund and fully fund our Roth IRA's from our part time jobs.

The one thing wish the Democratic party would do is be more supportive of wealth promoting programs such as Roth IRAs for lower income workers.

[UdoKier]

47. Really? Ithought it was smug and clueless.

Living within one's means, of course is a wonderful motto to hew to, but it isn't as easy in real life as on paper.

To live within my means here in San Francisco, I would have to move my wife and two kids into a studio apartment in the ghetto. Even then I don't know if it would be cheap enough.

As it is, we have a 2-BR apartment, a 9-year old car, we seldom buy new clothes or new ANYTHING for that matter. I challenge you to stretch $28K per year in this city as far as I have. I NEED a new computer for my work, so I have debt.

We managed to find a 2 BR for $1200 utils. included, in SF. That's DIRT CHEAP here, but in many of the towns where preachy repugs I know live, you can easily buy a house for a smaller payment than that. And you can rent an equivalent apartment for less than $500.

Our kids get educational opportunities here that they could not get anywhere else (maybe NYC or LA) so we're staying for the duration.

[UNIXcock]

89. What is smug about our contributions and what is clueless about making

... a fair living by working hard and making frugal purchases?

... We live where we choose as well. We did our research prior to settling down to start a family and chose AZ for many viable reasons.

... Why the hostility & hate in your post? It almost smacks of sour grapes.

[UdoKier]

91. It's smug and to say that "ANYONE can live like a king on $20K/Year"

It's simply not true. Either your incomes are more than you're letting on or you're refusing to acknowledge the huge differences in living costs around the country, not to mention economic conditions.

Arizona has a robust economy and very low cost of living. It's also hotter than a sauna (except the tiny burg of Flagstaff) and fairly devoid of non-corporate cultural venues, but hey, whatever turns you on.

Do you HONESTLY think that the 40% of Americans who can't even afford F'ing HEALTH INSURANCE can afford to "sock something away" in a 401K or an IRA? The hostility is because you display the same self-satisfied attitudes I hear ALL THE TIME from republicans. I suppose living in Freeperland Arizona, it must just rub off on a person.

And by the way, 1/3 of working Americans make LESS than $15K/ per year. Are they all lazy, worthless bastards in your view?

As for sour grapes, I don't think so. I'd MUCH rather live in poverty here than in a stucco McMansion in Scottsdale.


Do you support an increase in the minimum wage? More progressive taxation? An end to tax breaks for companies shipping decent jobs overseas? Why do you sound so much like someone who does not?

[cattleman22]

95. Sounds like you are pretty bitter

First you mock a person for deciding to live in a low cost area and then you whine that you can not save anything because you made the decision to live in a high cost area.


My wife and I live comfortably by spending about $16,000 a year total for living expenses. This includes a number or luxuries such as eating out once and a while and going to cultural events. Any extra income gets split between local charities and savings.

[UdoKier]

97. I'm NOT whining about *my* circumstances.

It's tight for us, but we will get by.

But I do work for a living and am aware that a LOT of people live on much less than us, and would not find it easy of desirable to pack up and leave home for the browner pastures of Arizona or Nevada "because it's cheaper there and there are jobs"

And I'm not bitter, I'm just annoyed that some think there is a one-size-fits-all solution to personal finances. I raise 2 KIDS on my income, bub. My wife and I could live pretty comfortably in the desert if we didn't have kids, too.

I simply despise the callousness of the suburban swimming-pool set who think the problems of the working poor are nothing more than a "lack of discipline". Crap shows like "Cops" perpetuate the problem by showing the dregs of the working class, when most are diligent, honest people.

Nice to see that many here believe in those stereotypes, too.

[UNIXcock]

96. I'm laughing my ass off now - I see, you can't be a Democrat unless ...

... you make <$20K/year?

... I'll have you know, I lived for years below poverty level. Realized early on in life that either I did something about it or accept it and live with it. I got on my feet by working hard and long hours, saving instead of partying, taking public transportation instead of showing up to work in a shiny new car. - By working my ass off, taking risks in sensible investments. Eventually they started paying enough in returns that I could afford go to night school and get a degree (all the while working 50 hours/week). Later, when life got a little easier we didn’t splurge and spend wildly. Nope, we continued to watch our finances and parlayed a portion of our returns into larger real estate investments. That's how I was able to click off the second choice in this poll.

… I did not make a dime by entitlements, not a penny on handouts and certainly not one dollar by taking advantage of anyone.

… When we started out young, we couldn’t afford heath insurance at all. It sucked. Know how we countered that? Lived right, no garbage foods, raised puppies, exercised, didn’t smoke and as a reward to ourselves, maybe shared a bottle of inexpensive wine over Sunday dinner with close friends - Basically, we were good to each other

… As for Arizona, I love the State it’s been very good to us. It’s where we made our modest wealth. We have a lovely home just south of Flagstaff in a nice liberal community called Kachina Village and a large “stucco mansion” (you nailed one thing right!) north of Scottsdale both paid for.

… That is the beautiful thing about this country, you can make it “big” if you put your mind and heart to it. Thousands and thousands of people from all over the world work to the bone to immigrate to the States for a chance at bettering their lives. No, it isn’t easy but I’m a living testimonial that it can be done.

… One last thing, never let greed over-take your desire to make more money. Be fair to your business partners and customers, devote time, funds and resources to those less fortunate and be grateful for your good fortune.

… Peace

[UdoKier]

98. I never said anything of the sort.

But you can't be a democrat if you look down on anyone who finds it hard to live on such a pittance.

"Realized early on in life that either I did something about it or accept it and live with it. I got on my feet by working hard and long hours, saving instead of partying, taking public transportation instead of showing up to work in a shiny new car."

Most people I know do that - just to survive.

"By working my ass off, taking risks in sensible investments."

Most people I know can't afford investments, sensible or otherwise.

"Eventually they started paying enough in returns that I could afford go to night school and get a degree (all the while working 50 hours/week)."

Good for you. I guess anyone lacking your stamina deserves to be hungry and homeless.

"Later, when life got a little easier we didn’t splurge and spend wildly."

Are you under the impression that the working poor spend wildly? Who are these people? I've never seen them.

" Nope, we continued to watch our finances and parlayed a portion of our returns into larger real estate investments. That's how I was able to click off the second choice in this poll. "

Again, three cheers for you. And raspberries to you for failing to realize that it's more than just good luck. There is a huge element of good luck involved too.

I'm very grateful that I had parents who provided me with a decent home. Although they couldn't pay for my college, so I had to get loans, they at least gave me an upbringing where learning was encouraged. Not everybody gets that. I had some advantages, and I'm grateful for them. But I know wealthy people who were sent to the BEST schools, had trust funds left to them, and call themselves "self-made" because they started a business and made it go. You're not self-made unless you start out with NOTHING. Very few wealthy people did.

[UNIXcock]

102. Let's call a truce ...

... Look - believe it or not, I'm on your side, and I don't want this to evolve into a flame war. I'm not gloating in my threads, all I'm saying is that we all can make a difference in our lives. Some unfortunate folks cannot, and if they're friends or family of mine, I help out when and where I can.

... I'm glad to see your appreciation for your obvious loving parents and that it sounds as though you're healthy. That's more than a lot of people can say.

... And yes, I started with nearly nothing and an apparently dismal future ahead of me. You nailed something else too; stamina - between that, my loving wife and our faith in the Lord we are where we are. It had nothing to do with rabbits-feet and shooting-stars. In part, the secret to our success were just reasonable, achievable goals and shear chugging away at accomplishing them.

... Peace

[cattleman22]

94. I too was shocked at the hostility for people who live frugally and save.

[UdoKier]

99. I have the highest respect for people like that.

I just despise those who imply that that alone is enough to get by in America for *everyone*. It's the smug, self-satisfied attitude that's offensive, not the frugality.

I clip coupons, shop at the Chinese market rather than Albertson's, my kids wear hand-me-downs, my economy car is old, we seldom eat out, and when we do, it's a CHEAP place.

Being frugal has enabled us to get by in a super-pricey city. But there are a lot of people getting by on much less than we do here. They don't have the freedom to up and move to Arizona or wherever.

Why do I feel I'm talking on the Yahoo boards here?

Is nobody here able to acknowledge that some people are born with advantages over others, and that if you are successful, you ought to have a measure of humility and gratitude for your good fortune, rather than disdain for those less fortunate?

Where do they teach this attitude? Those "Abundant Faith" churches?

Amazing.

[CarbonDate]

27. junior enlisted military

I rent a small place and generally think I do pretty well for myself. Still, if I was taking care of anybody other than myself, things would be a little tight.

[RivetJoint]

28. Be wise

Don't get married and have kids until you can afford it. You can make E-5 pretty quick these days; better to wait until then.

[deutsey]

36. Come from the working class (working poor)

Managed to move up to lower middle class.

Sometimes I feel like I'm perilously close to slipping back to my roots.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

37. I fall between two

Working Poor and Welfare Poor. Yet, I do work, I am a Nurse. But living in WV hasn't been kind to me, they don't pay enough here and I don't have enough money to move back to PA. Sucks. Hey Udo, Off topic, What does your name represent? There used to be a band called Accept, way back in the 80's... I think the lead singer's name was Udo Kier... Just wondering.

[buckettgirl]

39. According to this

We are working poor, but we are quickly moving up to working/middle class. It hasn't been so very long ago that we are the very bottom - taken us 3 years to get where we are. When I feel down about our situation, I think about what it was like, and then I know we have truly made progress.
We are working poor because I am in college - I'm a straight A student and I take about 15 -18 hours every semester. I am also a housewife. I don't work, but I could get job if I had to - almost instantly too, I am a Certified Nurses Aide.
After I finish college, I estimate that it will be about a year before we hit middle class, and that is assuming that I pass the NCLEX exam and become an RN. We will also be debt free when I graduate (not including student loans), the high interest credit card payments will be long gone.
My husband also has fairly decent job security - he works for Clayton Homes, Schult division. They make manufactured housing, and right now overtime is mandatory and they have a huge backlog. As long as this job lasts, we should be ok and actually able to save money for once.

[catmandu57]

40. College educated disabled living on ssi

My wife is working poor and our combined incomes let us live relatively comfortably. We have our own home, although it was like pulling teeth to get her to kick in a few extra dollars on the mortage payment each month, she doesn't have any financial sense at all, won't start a savings account for the expenses that our going to come our way.
I've been telling her for years we need to put at the very least twenty bucks a month into savings, but instead she buys crap from the damn catalogs that come in the mail.
I throw them away, she orders from the ones that her mother gets, everytime the postman brings a box I want to tell him to take it back, but then she'd have the crap sent to her mother's, I'm going to have a breakdown over this crap.

Anyway, I graduated into the teeth of poppies resession, and with circumstances that prevented me from getting the hell out of here to go to work, and since I have always qualified for disability, it made more sense to draw a check every month.
Now, I'm worried that they'll either kill ssi altogether, or cut the funding, and with the peice of fuel risingand my wifes job requiring her to drive, things are kind of tense here.
I try not to show just how scared I am, vut let her know thyat it's very possible that there are some hard times ahead.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

43. In Boston, like Manhattan, people live in condos and are carless

my 800 sq-foot condo is worth more than a McMansion in other parts of the country.

[BlueOhio]

44. Unemployed

Since January 2001

No Prospects, Sold House, Most of possessions, still have the truck, renting a house... moved out of California, couldn't afford 1200 a month for my mortgage anymore. about 1000 in savings... was 6 figures in 12-2000

Gawd I miss the big dawg.

[proud patriot]

45. Working poor

My husband and I own our own small business .
Zero employees , Zero Health Insurance .
We qualify for Healthy Families of California
for our special needs son's Health insurance.

I choose to be a homemaker , so I suppose we could have
more money and vacations but at this point with our son
that is not a wise option for me .

[scarlet_owl]

46. Lower class/working class.

Sure, we have a new home, but we wouldn't come close to affording it if my mother in law didn't live with us. Our car is a piece of shit, we NEVER take vacations, and we have five dollars in our savings account. It's rough, and it sucks, but we keep going. We could be a lot worse off.

[DownNotOut]

51. Middle class

and 1 paycheck away from destitute. Thank you.

D.N.O

[Coyul]

55. Under employed now

working for about a third of what I used to make,wife unemployed.Collage money gone,retirement gone.
I will consider it a good christmas if we still have the lights on.

[Mitchie]

59. Class by relationship to means of production

I didn't see 'proletariat' anywhere. I refrain from measuring status(class) by income. It leaves a very incomplete picture of class struggle and only really serves the power elite.

Like IQ tests.

Yes, I'm a socialist.

[shrike]

60. Sort of upper middle class

Our house is two bedrooms, but we have one of the largest lots in town. No debt, cars are paid for, money in the bank and investments. All due to my beloved father, who insisted on going without so I could have an inheritance.

[djack23]

61. What about the Young People

There are many of us young people who may have just graudated college. We are renting an apartment or living with parents, but don't have saved money / good enought credit / income up to buy a house or condo. Categories need redefintion.

[UdoKier]

71. Subjective.

Go with your gut. Ignore the possessions guidelines, go by how economically secure or optimistic you feel about your situation.

[RumpusCat]

101. In that post-college-now-what phase

I chose the Lower Class/Working Class category, but with some hesitation. I graduated in May 2003 from college in TN and moved up to NYC that summer. I came with no savings and no job. Lol, don't ask me why, it was kind of a crazy move. Anyway, I've been working as a temp ever since and I've been able to hold on--I've bounced a few checks, have two roommates to keep down costs (I live in Jersey City, btw, which is MUCH cheaper than NYC but still pretty pricey), and try to be frugal. Student loan debt, a wee bit of credit card debt (not nearly as bad as some people's), no savings, no car of course.

A vacation is flying home to visit my parents (and they have to buy the plane ticket, ha). That's where I hesitated with the classification, tho'--my parents are pretty solidly middle class and they will help me out if I need it, and I know I can go live with them if something terrible happens. They own their house, have two cars, but don't really have a lot of spare cash b/c they're both nearing retirement and have been having health problems. So it's not like they can support me, unless I live with them. I'd rather struggle a bit by myself. But should I count myself 'up' a class b/c of that safety net?

BTW, my older is sister is closer to my situation economically than to my parents, and she is much more settled down and in (cheaper) TN. What's this about creating the first downwardly mobile generation? Heh.

[Walt Starr]

63. I don't fit your models

:shrug:

Guess I won't vote. My wife and I see no reason for two vehicles at this time.

[UdoKier]

69. As I said, it's subjective.

It's more about what you can afford, not necessarily what you own.

You could live in a studio and click "Rich" if that's how you feel. The possessions are mere guidelines.

They are not perfect indicators, but may be a bit better than annual income, which can be deceptive.

I only have one car, and I hardly use it. But we have lots of transit options here. Not so in some cities.

[Taxloss]

82. The British would not measure class by possessions.

If you don't mind me saying so, it seems a rather American thing to do.

And by your integers, I am struck again by what a fabulously wealthy nation the USA is. The UK is wealthy, but nothing like that.

[Nikia]

84. Actually college is an option for the working poor

If they do well. I could have gone to a couple lower end state colleges for free (Free tuition to ranking high in your class and high test scores). Many private colleges with good endowments give great financial aid packages including of course full subsidized loans. I think Harvard announced the figure of $3000 per year out of pocket for poor students. At my college, they were even more generous. If you let your child live at home for free, much of that can be made over the summer and the rest with part time work or if you can spare a few hundred over the course of a year.
Even though you'd be crazy to do it now, there are also the service academies as well as the slightly less selective ROTC.
Quit spreading the myth that working class children can't go to college.

[Nikia]

85. Lower middle/working class

We do rent a duplex but only because we are not committed to living in this area for sure. We did buy one of our cars new, which we now realize was a mistake.

[Squeech]

88. I said Upper Middle Class

But I'm feeling pretty downwardly mobile.

I have no debt-- I've paid off the mortgage on my house, which is valued in the upper six figures. But I drive a twelve year old car. I have no kids to send to college, but I'm sending Mrs. Squeech now, trying to pay for it in cash (technically on the credit card, which I endeavor to pay in full every month). I'm working, she isn't, and we have a roommate who's been out of work for a year that we're pretty much supporting. I'm contributing $3K/yr to a 401k plan, and my employer matches that.

But this year I'm almost certain to lose ground, paying for things like heating oil, and property taxes will have to go up to make up for everything the Repuke congress is underfunding, etc. etc. etc.

[Behind the Aegis]

90. Don't know which to chose

I am unemployed (17 months), about to lose my COBRA and will have to switch carriers, had to cash in my retirement (I am only 35), and just had to request a 4th deferment for my student loans. Fortunately, I have a partner who is very understanding and has a job, so we do have money coming in, but with my bills and the household bills, we live paycheck to paycheck. We are renting our home because we want to move and since I have an odd career (higher education), it will take us out of Okla-Hell-ma, soon, I hope! I do have a job interview in TN in three weeks, but the pay is less than what I make in Oklahoma and it is more expensive to live in TN, so I don't know what I will do.

As for people saying "move to the job," unless you know you will get one, it is not financial sound to move with no job lined up, unless you have much disposable income. if you are living paycheck to paycheck, it is next to impossible. I have applied for jobs all over and have found that outside of higher education, other jobs expect you to live in the area. I even found one job I really liked and I put in my cover letter, that I would pay outright for an interview. But, because I was not "local," they wouldn't interview me! To add insult to injury, I was more qualified than the person they hired!

I have a master's, ten year's experience in higher education, and speak multiple languages. Higher Ed. is a small field, so you'd think there wouldn't be that big of a problem. I applied to one job which required 7+ years, a masters, and few other things...over 200 people applied! When the market was good, a position like I am seeking would be lucky to get 20 qualified applicants! Things are really bad all over!

I still have some hope, and I have a person I love with me, so I will meander along. But, I am having to look at jobs well beneath my education level and then I am told, "you are over qualified!" Damned if you're educated, damned if you're not! Maybe I will try to start my own business!

[Godhumor]

103. Teacher

I work in the DC public school system, which is always an interesting proposition. It pays extremely well for teaching (They need to pay well in order to keep people in the area for more than a year or two), but, at the same time, money is tight.

My wife is a Japanese immigrant, so we are currently paying for her schooling, she is working a part-time retail job which contributes less than a 1000 a month, and we are living in the DC area--a place not known for reasonable cost of living. I actually think we're doing pretty good; between my wife and I we end up with about 400 dollars each month after paying every single bill and loan we have. The fact that we come out on the positive side is all that I ask for at the age of 28.

[knight_of_the_star]

104. College Student living with my dad

Who has the income of enough to keep the gas tank full. Where would that be?

[neebob]

105. And you need this information because ...?

Are so many of us really so insecure and our lives so empty that we need to judge ourselves by comparing ourselves to others, based on material things alone? Geez. No wonder the country's so fucked up. Feed the machine, why don'tcha.