I recieved this e-mail -Disgusting! (help please)

[lexicon089]

I've been e-mailing a back and forth lately trying to convince them that there is nothing wrong with being 'liberal' or 'progressive'.. and I thought I was making progress, but I guess maybe I said something wrong recently but here is what they replyed with:


--------
"I'm afraid people like ME are the only reason you are still alive in this country.

You will never win against us, so stop trying to convince me that I'm wrong.... Yours are the forces of death, actually that of outwright slaughter... you murder your own children. and see nothing wrong with it. this ONE issue is enough to stop me dead in my tracks.. I DO NOT CARE about IRAQ why should ANY of that shit matter to me? when you MURDER your own baby........

Think about that for a second. you MURDER your OWN F*CKING CHILD..a baby has NO ability to defend himself a baby that can't even walk or stop the 'doctor' from stabbing them inside their mothers womb, where they must think they are loved and safe (the 'holy' fighters you talk about in Iraq at least have ak47's and can hold them and have had a chance at life).

You're his mother and you're suppose to protect him....

how does it make you feel? because you are just as guilty as anybody that has done it.

I'd like to catagorically go through and tell you why you are wrong but you'd never even get it, and you are probably too busy with your bloody hands and blood soaked grin from murdering your latest baby.

have a nice night

and to all the defenseless babys out there that are being ripped from their mothers womb and slaughtered with a cold knife and vaccume: we are trying , we are trying hard baby and we are coming...one day we will be there to save you from these barbarians. I am sorry that I couldn't be there sooner sweetheart but i'm trying I promise I'm trying :("
---

I have no idea how I should respond to that... I just feel sad and guilty for eveing have pressed the matter. I think I will just let my cool off for a while.

[flowomo]

1. you should at least let them know....

they spelled "categorically" wrong. Just to be neighborly.

[spatlese]

3. LOTS of other spelling errors...

it was painful to even read!

[Carla in Ca]

75. LOL...and also tell them

that 'pro-life' ends at birth!

[alittlelark]

2. Whoever sent that to you.... or composed that is

DEEPLY DISTURBED.

Separate from sociopaths.

[obreaslan]

153. I agree...

I say watch your back. All that talk about "I'm coming" is very disturbing. THese are the type of people who put a pipe-bomb in a clinic, and then claim they were trying to save lives. WACKO. :crazy:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

158. That is a FUCKING DEATH THREAT! Poster should report psycho to FBI! (nt)

[amber dog democrat]

4. Who is this person?

It looks like irreconcileable differences. Keep a wide berth. Don't even let this person what state you live in.

[lexicon089]

8. believe me I won't

It started out with honest dialog I guess you live and learn.. on to the next red stater.

[Union Thug]

5. How about telling this person that they need to see a psychiatrist?

Face it,these morons are beyond hope. I might tell them that I enjoy a good fetus barbeque every now and again, just to taunt them. ;-)

[NV Whino]

6. Well, the "pro-lifers"

save the fetus so they can send them off to be killed in someplace like Iraq 18 years later. For the life of me (no pun intended) I can't figure out why abortion is wrong, but sending young men and women to their death in Iraq is right. That is not pro-life.

And to get to the heart of the matter, it is not pro-life vs abortion, it is pro-CHOICE.

Edited for typos.

[CJHoward]

28. Why do people join the military?

Are they unaware of the fact that they will be going to a war if the country decides to go to war? Do they not understand presidential terms last four years and there is no gaurantee who will win the next term, and what his criteria for going to war will be?

[NV Whino]

29. A good many people in recent years

joined the military to get an education they couldn't pay for otherwise.

[CJHoward]

48. So I guess someone needs to

explain how they are going to pay for those educations

[Cheswick2.0]

63. they are going to pay by killing innocent Iraqi people for OIL.

to make bush and friends richer.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[King_Crimson]

121. Duh...

I think Saddam is outta the picture my friend. I suppose it's AOK with you that the military continues killing innocent Women and children and old people. And if you'll remember correctly, the inspectors didn't find ANYTHING!
Gosh...glad you are proud of yourself for serving under the devil who spawned the beast running this country now.
And by the way...Freeperland is out the door and last door on the right at the end of the hall! Think you'll find those who think like you there!

K_C USAF '71-'77

[Cheswick2.0]

124. welcome to DU, we we will miss you

not.

Buddy you were just to easy.

[qs04]

147. Re: I guess Saddam

The US violated the terms of inspections by using them to conduct espionage and you fault Saddam for not subjecting the nation to it? He did however cooperate fully prior to Bush's invasion and occupation, but Bush invaded anyway.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. Are they enlisting in droves because of it? I don't think so

[CJHoward]

49. They shouldn't enlist at all

..if they aren't prepared to do what the man says. The Military will fight for demcracy, but it is not a democracy.

[Cheswick2.0]

64. Is that what we are doing in Iraq? Fighting for democracy?

[CJHoward]

84. yes

doesn't matter what the man says what we are doing there. If you don't want to go, don't go, but be prepared to face the consequences.

[Cheswick2.0]

126. how exactly are we fighting for democracy?

please explain.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. I think they're always aware that war is a possibility

I just don't think they plan on it being brought on by a big lie to enrich corporate fat cats who are making big bucks while they are being led by a bunch of incompetent, poor planning profiteers.

[the other rick]

159. Well, maybe

Because they think they can do some good? Serve their country? Protect the innocent? I may be biased as 8th generation U.S. Army (no, really) but the Army's primary goal is meant to be to protect people.

[ProfessorPlum]

167. And what a sad surprise to them to find

that their actions are actually harming their country, by fomenting anti-USA hatred around the world, that that they are actually harming the innocent (blowing them up, killing, and maiming them).

I agree that it is a good goal for our armed forces to protect people, especially American people. But WHO is being protected in this clusterfark?

[immoderate]

7. Um, you could say, "Get over it!"

Seriously, this person does not sound, open to reason, or you could tell her(?) of the fact that most fertilized eggs abort naturally.

I am trying out the term, "pro back alley abortion" because that's what that will lead to.

Telling her you don't really feel guilty?

This is a toughie. She's got herself pretty well boxed in.

--IMM

[lexicon089]

14. well...

I may have pressed her too hard i'll not make that mistake again... I mean my purpose is to draw people to our side not scare them away. I'll just have to be more patient next time and hope for somebody that is more reasonable.

[immoderate]

18. I think I agree with the posters that say

you are dealing with mental illness here.

You just picked a lulu.

--IMM

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

101. I recommend the term "forced pregnancy and delivery"

[PaulaGem]

9. Tell this person that you refuse to continue the discussion -

unless they provide you with an objective standard that defines exactly when a zygote becomes "human". Tell them that it can't be the first trimester because if it was then God would be the biggest abortionist of them all. ( Spontaneous abortions in the first trimester are very common. If they were really "people" at that stage then God wouldn't waste them either. )

But don't be disappointed if they totally miss this concept and keep ragging.

Ignore them - they won't listen unless they want to and nothing you can do or say can make them want to listen.

Peace,
Paula

[ShaneGR]

10. Send this picture back and ask them why they dont care about Iraq....

[2Design]

11. don't you have a delete button 0 use it

[The Sheik]

12. Ask her what she thinks about babies of Iraqi's, Afghani's, and/or...

non-wealthy Americans. They arent being treated very well.

[smurfygirl]

13. Ask them how the mothers of baby's in Iraq feel.

Okay maybe not. How about you block the sender and call the state and have them put in a hospital for their dimentia. Or send them a bag of dog shit in the mail with a picture of a murdered baby from Iraq. That would make you feel much better.

[shesemsmom]

15. It sounds like that one has a lot of hate

that he can't get his or her mind around the fact that this country is killing everyday in their name. I would probably just leave it alone in fact I would be done with any communications with that one, friend, family or not. There is something twisted in the fact that all they could talk about is abortion and not get past that fact. The real cold truth is choice is not the issue, we are gonna loss that. Choice died, or was murdered Nov. 2. Now it has become survival of the strongest. Those of us who CHOSE to take a stand against all of this hate and killing of the already born. Good luck, it sounds like you have reached out to a real radical.:argh: It would be nice to win that one to your way of thinking though. Give it some time. When they see the repug agenda, they are gonna crash

[Kipepeo]

16. Crazy talk. My reply would be:

Funny that you call us the party of death, when your president has started an illegal war that is killing both innocent Iraqis and Americans. So you are saying that the death of 100,000 Iraqi men, women and children doesn't "matter" to you? The deaths of over 1,000 American soldiers don't matter? Doesn't God value all innocent people, regardless of their skin color or where they live? Since when did God restrict himself to national borders? You can look at pictures like this and feel nothing? (Warning, graphic photos for those who have a heart):
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm
http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

You lump an embryo and a fetus and a baby all together? I guess you're against fertilization clinics then, right? Is that something you work to shut down?

And how do you justify caring more about an embryo or fetus than a 5 year old child in Iraq, or an 18 year old American soldier in Iraq? Those deaths really don't "matter" to you? Because that's what you said. I can't imagine what it feels like to be that heartless. My heart goes out to you.

Talk about blood soaked hands. May God have compassion on your soul.

[nytemare]

17. Abortion numbers under Bush went up, Article from SOJO

Pro-life? Look at the fruits
by Dr. Glen Harold Stassen


I am a Christian ethicist, and trained in statistical analysis. I am consistently pro-life. My son David is one witness. For my family, "pro-life" is personal. My wife caught rubella in the eighth week of her pregnancy. We decided not to terminate, to love and raise our baby. David is legally blind and severely handicapped; he also is a blessing to us and to the world.

I look at the fruits of political policies more than words. I analyzed the data on abortion during the George W. Bush presidency. There is no single source for this information - federal reports go only to 2000, and many states do not report - but I found enough data to identify trends. My findings are counterintuitive and disturbing.

Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4% decline during the 1990s. This was an average decrease of 1.7% per year, mostly during the latter part of the decade. (This data comes from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher Institute's studies).

Enter George W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate to continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead, the opposite happened.

I found three states that have posted multi-year statistics through 2003, and abortion rates have risen in all three: Kentucky's increased by 3.2% from 2000 to 2003. Michigan's increased by 11.3% from 2000 to 2003. Pennsylvania's increased by 1.9% from 1999 to 2002. I found 13 additional states that reported statistics for 2001 and 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6% average increase), and five saw a decrease (4.3% average decrease).

Under President Bush, the decade-long trend of declining abortion rates appears to have reversed. Given the trends of the 1990s, 52,000 more abortions occurred in the United States in 2002 than would have been expected before this change of direction.

How could this be? I see three contributing factors:

First, two thirds of women who abort say they cannot afford a child (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life Web site). In the past three years, unemployment rates increased half again. Not since Hoover had there been a net loss of jobs during a presidency until the current administration. Average real incomes decreased, and for seven years the minimum wage has not been raised to match inflation. With less income, many prospective mothers fear another mouth to feed.

Second, half of all women who abort say they do not have a reliable mate (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life). Men who are jobless usually do not marry. Only three of the 16 states had more marriages in 2002 than in 2001, and in those states abortion rates decreased. In the 16 states overall, there were 16,392 fewer marriages than the year before, and 7,869 more abortions. As male unemployment increases, marriages fall and abortion rises.

Third, women worry about health care for themselves and their children. Since 5.2 million more people have no health insurance now than before this presidency - with women of childbearing age overrepresented in those 5.2 million - abortion increases.

The U.S. Catholic Bishops warned of this likely outcome if support for families with children was cut back. My wife and I know - as does my son David - that doctors, nurses, hospitals, medical insurance, special schooling, and parental employment are crucial for a special child. David attended the Kentucky School for the Blind, as well as several schools for children with cerebral palsy and other disabilities. He was mainstreamed in public schools as well. We have two other sons and five grandchildren, and we know that every mother, father, and child needs public and family support.

What does this tell us? Economic policy and abortion are not separate issues; they form one moral imperative. Rhetoric is hollow, mere tinkling brass, without health care, health insurance, jobs, child care, and a living wage. Pro-life in deed, not merely in word, means we need policies that provide jobs and health insurance and support for prospective mothers.

Glen Stassen is the Lewis B. Smedes Professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary, and the co-author of Kingdom Ethics: Following Jesus in Contemporary Context, Christianity Today's Book of the Year in theology or ethics.

[chaska]

19. Good god, why don't we all just pack up and go to Canada?

I'm serious. This place is fucked. We could make Canada an even better place. Leave these idiots and assholes to wallow in the their own filth.

I'm already gone. Okay, as good as.

[Warpy]

20. Good lord

I don't suppose it will do any good to point out you haven't murdered anyone, but that their votes are murdering pregnant women and their unborn babies every day in Iraq.

This person is a zealot, and a very nasty one at that. My advice is to post the above and then block future emails.

Sometimes you have to cut your losses with these people. Nothing will get through to them until tragedy visits them personally.

[crispini]

21. Ick. Don't bother. What a wacko..

For someone more middle of the road you might want to point out, Do you want your government telling you what to do with your life? No. Do you want the government telling your doctor how to treat you? No. OK, then, this is an issue of women's privacy. Get the government out of my womb, basically.

[morillon]

22. Assuming you want to continue debating them...

...and I'm not sure there's much point, as they sound pretty incoherent...

Women have been aborting pregnancies for hundreds and hundreds of years, many times with fatal consequences for themselves and their babies. Making abortion illegal will NOT change this. If a person is serious about reducing the number of abortions, he or she will have to address what makes a woman feel it's necessary in the first place. People don't take babies' lives out of some kind of delight in mayhem unless they're Hannibal Lecter, and there just aren't that many people around who fit the gleeful serial killer profile.

If we address the social, cultural, and economic root causes of abortions, THEN we can make some real progress toward reducing the number of them.

[RubyCat]

23. Recommended sites

Here are some sites that show what we do in the name of our god and country. Warning: these sites show very graphic images.


http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/

http://www.thenausea.com/

[RubyCat]

24. Another recommended site

You should refer that emailer to the Riverbend site. How can anyone of conscience not have sympathy for the plight of the innocent Iraqi people as described by this girl's blog from Iraq.


http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

[karlrschneider]

36. Riverbend is always a worthwhile read. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[RubyCat]

66. Thanks.

I'm still getting used to the forums. How many posts do I need to start sending private emails? :)

[Doohickie]

25. The key to the whole abortion argument,

from a right winger's mind, is that they take two things as a given:

1. A growing fetus, regardless of its stage of development, is a full-blown human with a soul. Their church tells them that. There are several Bible passages that support that view, and that's that.

2. They feel ennobled to think they are fighting for the helpless. It makes them feel like they are doing good in the world.

There are plenty of arguments to counter these two points, and you've seen them here on DU. Regarding the first point, there are also several Bible passages that counter the assertion that any fetus has a soul. In the OT, there are laws regarding eye-for-an-eye justice: A person who murders is to be put to death, but a person who causes a woman to miscarry only has to be restitution to her husband. This implies that causing a woman to miscarry (i.e., abortion) is a lesser offense than murdering an existing person.

But point this and other inconsistencies out to them, and they simply accuse you of "cherry picking" passages from the Bible. This is silly because they are doing precisely the same thing. Yet they won't budge.

And as for the second point, they pat themselves on the back for saving a little fetus, but don't do enough to provide for the proper rearing of kids in poverty, nor do they care if their president takes them into an illegal war on false pretenses.

I have no idea how to get past this cognitive dissonance. It's the old mantra of faith over reason. In my faith, there is plenty of room for reason and the two are not at odds.

If the right is ever going to move on the issue of abortion, we're going to have to find a way to expose this inconsistency on their part. I'm at a loss, though.

[The Minus World]

142. Good analysis.

I would suggest that the recipient of this e-mail consider that logic is oftentimes of little utility when dealing with irrational thinkers. The sender of this e-mail has come to assumptions which would only develop in a highly paranoid mind, and those assumptions lead to hatred and polarization:

1.) "Pro-choice" means "pro-abortion."
2.) All Democrats - since they are not as rabidly "pro-life" or "anti-abortion as the religious right are - must be "pro-abortion."
3.) Abortion is the senseless slaughter of an innocent human being.
4.) Doctors who perform abortions are tantamount to mass-murderers.
5.) Through utility, killing one abortion-performing doctor might lead to hundreds of lives being spared.
6.) The Republican party, in all its magnanimity, will take every step to stop abortions from occurring.

What is mind-numbing is that the very people who support the Republican party solely because of the abortion issue seem to not understand that there is a major population reduction effort underway.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

32. I value human life........

....but I don't agree it begins at the moment of conception, and I defintely don't believe it ends at birth, which is when some fundies seem to think suddenly Darwin is right and it's survival of the fittest......

[morillon]

33. To adjust your analogy a bit...

Your neighbor across the street would actually be living in your house, and in the next eight to nine months, you would become increasingly unable to do things for yourself. In nine months, you are going to have to miss a month or more of work. Then, after that, you either must be home 24 X 7 or find someone to stay with him.

[CJHoward]

56. So where do we

draw the line on the amount of inconvenience on my life??

[morillon]

90. Inconvenience?

By calling it "inconvenience," you're trivializing it. In your situation, you do have a support network. You have a wife and kids, you have a house, you own cars, you have a job. To you, adding a completely helpless person to your household might be seen as an inconvenience. What if you had nobody to help you, no job, no anything, but now you're looking at gradually becoming less well yourself over the next eight months, incurring a huge hospital debt, and then staying at home 24 X 7 until the child is old enough to go to school? That sounds more like a person's life being wrecked than an inconvenience.

I'm not saying that an abortion is a desirable solution. I've known a few women who opted to have an abortion at one point or another in their lives, and in every case, they were absolutely desperate and felt they had no other option. You can disagree about this conclusion, certainly, but this is what they truly believed.

How to solve the problem? Reduce the causes of unwanted pregnancies and the desperation that leads women to feel that an abortion is the only solution.

[CJHoward]

100. ansolutely

Did life get this bad only in the last nine months, or did they understand how bad things were 10 months ago? If things are really that bad, one should be in the mind of saying"I am not in any condition physically, emotionally, or financially to have a baby. I probably shouldn't have sex with this guy I just met.Or with this guy whose been hanging around for years, and has told me he has no intention of fathering a child or raising a family(either in words or actions). I am a strong independant liberal woman, and I will be responsible."

[morillon]

110. Okay, so YOU are that rational and in control...

...but is your average 17-year-old? Particularly one who hasn't had the birds and the bees explained to her in a sane, factual manner?

Kids are raging bags of hormones. Many of them are going to have sex no matter what their parents say. I've heard the argument that sex education and information on contraceptives will "give kids ideas" about having sex. They already HAVE ideas and urges, and it's up to their parents to make sure they have correct information AND open lines of communication about things like sex, personal boundaries, and peer pressure. Unfortunately, lots of parents are really clueless as to how to talk to their kids about these things.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Then I presume your neighbor was viable outside the womb for a period

of time before he got there.

[CJHoward]

57. trust me his life was over

after the stroke.

[Cheswick2.0]

45. if he were threatening your life and

your wife and kids needed you... I think you do have a right to stab him in the back of his head and suck his brains out (considering that this is the only method garanteed to save your life)

PS.. the guy is living in your body right?

PPS... yours is perhaps the worst argument I have read on the topic.

[CJHoward]

61. If the birth of a child thr

threathens the life of the mother is a different argument, and I'm probably closer to you on that one.

[Cheswick2.0]

68. Well then you should be thrilled to learn that women

have those procedures to save their lives and health.

[CJHoward]

93. And I have no problem

with them. I have no problem with people who are raped, and want abortions. True it is murder, but If I can't presume to be able to make that decision for anyone. Not even my own daughters.


But this absolutely no restrictions on abortion, full gov't funding...... I think it's just gone way too far.

[MissB]

99. What has gone too far?

I'm interpreting what you're saying to be that a women's right to choose has gone too far.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MissB]

111. Your post makes you sound like your anti-choice

And that's why I hit the button.

[datasuspect]

150. first

your argument is flawed.

there are distinct differences between an 88 year old man and a fetus.

and it is a fetus.

anyway, doesn't this guy have a family? i presume you belong to a church, can you not appeal to your congregation to do something christianly for this guy?

they do have homes for terminally ill/old people. have you checked into that? you might actually be endangering this person's life (by adding him to the list of all your responsibilities). he might need care you are not able/qualified to provide.

stick to reality and leave the half-baked logical nonsense alone.

[Nobody]

27. Ask this person what he/she is doing for children who are already here

First off, not every woman want to become a mother and not every woman who is pregnant is itching to abort. Many women don't want kids and many other women itch to have lots of kids. And give birth to them themselves.

Second: There are lots of already born kids who no one is adopting. They're not cute white healthy infants. Some are special needs babies, some are born with horrible diseases, are HIV positive, are addicted to cocaine or other drugs. Some are minorities. Some are older kids who have bounced around the foster care system and are convinced no one wants them. Is this person even the least bit concerned?

Third: Women are human beings. No more, no less. Women are not uteri with legs. No woman should ever be forced to go through conception, pregnancy, or childbirth unless she is willing in all instances.

Perhaps you could assume the person is female and ask if "she" would be willing to be the host uterus for an otherwise aborted fetus. Offer to set "her" up with a clinic willing to make the transfer. See how this person reacts. It should be quite amusing.

[CJHoward]

34. These are all bad stats

...no doubt, there are some bad things going on in this world, but we don't know what could happen to the kids that make it full term.
They could be the next Gandhi, Clinton, or(place the name of someone you admire here).

If women don't want babies, then why don't they go get themselves fixed? why don't they go on birth control? why don't they use condoms, why do they have sex?

that's my biggest question. If they aren't ready to have children, then what makes them think they are ready to have sex? Yeah it's fun, and it feels good, and I don't plan on having a child every time I have sex, but should the situation arises, I am totally prepared to do the right thing.

I don't care if the man or woman is 16 or 35, if you are not ready to give birth, don't have sex. If you are not ready to father a child, and work to support that child, don't have sex. It is really that easy.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Great...it's working, eh? Besides..why all the responsibility on women?

I'll bet when the language turns sexist you also think boys will be boys.

[CJHoward]

46. the same reason the

father doesn't need to have the right to voice his opinion whether the woman should have an abortion or not.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Down below you say you have have a say in your daughter's pregnancy

No contradiction there.

[CJHoward]

65. In this statement the I am refering to the father of the baby

who right now is not given the right, even though I believe he should. Below, I mean me as the father of my baby, which as it stands, I don't have the right, which I believe I should.

No contradiction there

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. So then if the father says it's ok to kill it, then it's ok?

You're all over the place :D

( I thought elsewhere you said "just don't have sex"...uh...didn't the father have a choice?)

[CJHoward]

74. no, I'm in the same place

let's say when I was having premarital sex with my wife(before she was my wife), she get's pregnant. I'm totally prepared to take care of her, marry her, and raise the child.
The way the laws are right now, she could get an abortion without me ever knowing.

If she didn't want to have a child, she shouldn't have had sex with me. Regardless of the amount of begging I will do. Regardless of what kinda promises I will make.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Then you are perfect. Instead of telling women what to do, you should

be out cloning yourself so that every other human with a penis was just like you.

[kimchi]

91. ROFLMAO!

OMG, NSMA--I 'bout had a heart attack! And who's gonna take care of me then??????????

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. CJHoward will...you are a precious life...move across the street from him

[CJHoward]

104. well there is

a vacant house.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. Cute. You were fun to bat around.

[CJHoward]

109. Ditto

and thankyou for your time and civility

[MissB]

92. Yes, and until a man can carry a child

the woman should have the final say on whether or not she carries a baby to term.

If you didn't want to have a child, you shouldn't have sex with her. Why is it always about the girl?

[CJHoward]

112. I love kids.

each and everyone of them. Good bad, they are all blessings. imagine my shock when i found out not everyone thought that way.

[MissB]

114. Surprisingly enough, pro-choice people

love children too.

[winston61]

47. Do you hear what your are saying?

Sorry, but your kind of simplistic moralizing don't cut much ice in the real world. To be truly Dickensian, why not call your congressman and propose a law that bans people earning less than $50,000.00 a year from marrying and pro-creating? You sound like a nice middle class person with a job that provides insurance and benefits. What about the millions of working poor who don't have what you have? Mandatory sterilization? Since the fundies howl like banshees at the mention of realistic sex education and won't tell their kids about prevention what do you suggest? It's so easy to look down our noses and ask 'why don't these people just behave themselves?'

[CJHoward]

80. Are you listening to what you are saying

I don't need some school giving my daughter the "birds and the bees" speech when she isn't ready. I'm totally aware of my responsibilities to my daughter, I have talked to her about sex, and her mother has talked to her about sex, and we've talked to her about sex together.
My mother stayed at home, my stepdad made under $40,000/yr, my dad doesn't believe in child support. We lived. Me, my 6 brothers and four sisters.
this is about life, not economics.

if you don't want kids, get sterilized, I'm not asking the government to force you to comply.
if you don't want kids, keep them together. It works.

[datasuspect]

151. you know why fundies

can take these positions on abortion?

they don't screw their wife and little boys can't get pregnant.

sorry

very tasteless joke.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. funny I read in your profile that you don't have a uterus

so unless you can figure out how to carry the child to term in your testicles, you really can't say you are ready to step up and do the right thing. The fact is, it isn't your body...so buzz off.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

67. Ooops!

LOFL.

[CJHoward]

83. If you are having to carry the

baby all by yourself, then you've made some bad decisions period. Stop making bad decisions. period.

[Cheswick2.0]

88. biology 101

only women can carry children.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MissB]

116. That makes absolutely no sense

Why I bothering, I do not know.

However, if a woman choose to go it alone, one cannot force her to go it alone.

[Cheswick2.0]

127. off topic

we are talking about who carries the child

[MissB]

94. Who is making the bad decision here?

The girl? Why is always the girl making the bad decision?

It takes two to tango. The woman has to carry the child. That never changes.

Last I heard, guys didn't come with a uterus.

[CJHoward]

118. You're right

they both made bad decisions if neither is ready to be a parent. I'm not blaming only the girl.

I do acknowledge she does all the work, and should be celebrated for it.

I love mother's day

[hatrack]

78. Did it ever occur to you women might not have a choice on intercourse?

Did that even cross your mind even once? As you may (or may not) know, many traditional cultures exist around the world in which women are not permitted to refuse their husbands' sexual demands. Refusals can result in beatings, severe injury, rape or death.

As you may (or may not) know, it is next to impossible for many women, especially poor women in poor countries, to "go on birth control". Did it ever occur to you that when you're in the middle of Malawi or somewhere in northern Burma that you're a long way from the nearest condom machine, even assuming you had the money to pay for it?

Did it ever occur to you that for women to ask or demand that their husbands, boyfriends and/or customers (see below) use condoms can be impossibly dangerous? No, I guess it didn't, did it?

Oh, and as far as "getting themselves fixed" - when the nearest clinic has a hard time getting in single-use hypodermics, antiseptics and sterile gauze dressings, do you think they're going to be all set up for tubal ligations and other surgical procedures? Oh, and by the way, if millions and millions of women around the world can't afford food and/or fuel, let alone condoms, how in hell are they supposed to opt in to the costs of voluntary sterilization?

Then of course there are the millions of women around the world driven by poverty and desperation to work in the sex trade. Yes, I'm sure the pimps in Yangon, Kinshasa and Caracas are careful to ensure that all their customers use reliable condoms and that all babies conceived through prostitution are carried to term. It's not too hard to find desperate country girls fleeing deforested and destabilized corners of the world for the cities where they'll do next to anything to survive.

But, judging from your remarks, you probably didn't think about that either, did you? Did you?

[MissB]

87. Why do they have sex?

Because wanting to have sex is a normal, natural bodily function.

Make birth control readily available and keep abortions safe, legal and rare.

[Nobody]

148. "Don't have sex. It's really that easy" Are you kidding?

Do you think that no woman ever gets raped?

Do you think that no birth control ever fails?

Do you think that no woman ever has something go horribly wrong in a longed-for pregnancy such that she may die if she goes through with it?

Until we live in a perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong, I will always be in favor of a backup plan.

And by the way, I do have a uterus, and only I get a vote on what goes into it.

[RUDUing2]

168. In a perfect world with perfect people it would be that easy...

but we don't live in a perfect world populated with perfect people.

BTW how many kids do you have? How many fetuses have you concieved and carried in your body? I have 4 kids, I have had 5 pregnancies, I have miscarried two babies, including my youngest sons twin..., so go ahead and tell me I am not "pro-life"...

but I am also adamantly pro-choice..cause I have been in that place where only scared unwed pregnant teens can stand...a place that too many anti-choicers don't want to believe exists...and I CHOSE not to have an abortion when I was that scared pregnant teen...and I thank God every day that I had that CHOICE. It made all the difference when I was feeling overwhelmed by my son..when I felt resentful or too tired to cope..to know that I had made the CHOICE, that I wasn't helpless. Just having the ability to make that choice empowered me and made me a better mother to my children.

and I have watched my aunt cry because her beloved and wanted grandchild to be was non-viable and for the health and future fertility of her daughter had to be aborted in the late 2nd trimester (severe hydrocephaly, anecephalis, facial, cranial and organ defects)....

IMO there is nothing *pro life* about being anti choice..

[Old Mouse]

30. don't reply, say goodbye

When a mind has to entertain powerfully contradictory concepts (such as faith based reality versus perceived reality,) the ability for critical thinking is slowly eroded.

To a person like this, their argument is their life, they want the argument to give themselves meaning. In their mind faith always trumps logic, so there is no logical argument that can "win"

I am sorry if this is a person who means something to you, for they are lost to you.

Good luck, and try not to take their words personally.

[mitchum]

40. That is very wise advice, Old Mouse

and welcome to DU :)

[datasuspect]

152. hear hear

i've been straining to articulate it that way for some time now.

thanks for the clarity injection

[bluesoccermom]

169. well put ! N/T

[jmowreader]

31. Inform him the abortion rate went up under Bush

There are several ways to get the abortion rate down. Strangely enough, banning abortion isn't on the list.

And teaching Abstinence Only Sex Ed isn't on that list either.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. MINE MY ME ...that's what conservative males know

If your daughter got pregnant and didn't tell you...I'd bet your judgementalism would be the reason she didn't. If you really are so wonderful and loving and caring..then guess what? If your daughter has a crisis, she's likely to come to you. If you are an overbearing, judgemental fundamentalist who thinks she's a jexebel who is gonna do it all your way...then ...guess what....she actually DESERVES to figure it out independent of you imposing YOUR will on her...if she's old enough to concieve...she's old enough to have it be up to her.

[CJHoward]

70. At 11 years old, she is too young

to take care of herself, she will never be able to take care of a child. She doen't even qualify to get a legal job. Right now, she is in my care for a reason. I should have the right to decide wheter or not she can have sex, have a baby, go to a movie.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

72. Well sure...you should have a right on whether she should have sex

That's called SUPERVISING her which I would HOPE you are doing with an 11 year old...especially with your friends since that is who she'd be MOST at risk with. Then, of course, you should DEFINITELY be supervising her when she is out...but IF she were to become pregnant...ESPECIALLY at a young age....she SHOULD be able to talk to you without getting the shit beat out of her for getting pregnant. Unfortunately, the law needs to protect the weakest...the girl who CAN'T tell a parent.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. of course abortion is a form of birth control...what the hell else would

it be a form of, interpretive dance?

Don't believe in abortion, don't have one. I am sure with your attitude your daughter will feel just fine coming to you to be told she is a murderer if she wants an abortion.

[CJHoward]

71. It could very well be

a form of medical procedure to save a womans life.

my daughter is afraid to tell me she got a C in language arts, she better be afraid to tell me she wants an abortion. that doesn't make me wrong on either count.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

82. If your daughter is AFRAID to tell you anything..maybe it's YOU not HER

[RUDUing2]

171. or maybe it is because she is a normal teenager.

[MissB]

96. You want your daughter to be afraid to tell you

that she wants an abortion?

Oh, that will go over well.

[bluesoccermom]

170. if shes afraid

to tell you about a c grade, you can bet she wont tell you about an abortion or anything else that may not be up to your standards. You sound like a loving father, but I wonder what message your sending regarding a "c"grade,if the child has put all their effort into it.

[winston61]

38. don't waste your breath

You will never reach people like this. They don't know what world they live in. Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned, abortion would not be illegal. All it would mean is that the matter would be sent back to state courts. The majority of Americans do believe in the right to choose. These fundie people are not pro-life, just pro-birth. They don't give a shit what happens to the kids after they are born. Let 'em starve, die of disease, be abused. So you would think that these folks would be interested in reducing the demand for abortion. Wrong. They hate contraception, the morning after pill and realistic sex education. And don't even say the word condom. You see, even if you don't tell kids about prevention and safe sex, they will still engage in sex. But they won't know anything about prevention. So guess what? Frankie Fundamentalist's daughter is the one who comes up pregnant every time. And Frankie is in such denial about sex that he blames TV instead taking responsibility for what HE hasn't done. So the fundies abandon the most basic responsibility of parenthood and then blame someone else when the worst happens. You cannot argue with a sick mind.

[hatrack]

39. Ask them if there should be exceptions for rape/incest/mother's life

Because if they are consistent and honest, there can't be.

So, your daughter's been raped and is now pregnant with the child of the sociopath who raped her? So sorry, she must now carry that child to term. Sorry about school/college/career, but it's not the child's fault.

So, the 13-year-old kid down the block confesses to you that her father has raped her, and she's pretty sure she's pregnant? So sorry, but you're going to have that baby, Honey, though we're not sure just what that 1st degree consanguinty is going to do the kid's survival chances, to say nothing of your own, since 13 is pretty young, but hey, it's not that child's fault.

So, your wife has a tubal pregnancy that will kill both her and her unborn baby? So sorry - that's obviously God's will, and it's not the child's fault.

There's nothing we can do, and your wife needs to make her peace with God. Our pastoral counselors will be available between 9:00 and 5:00, M-F if you'd like to talk. Your call is important to us, and we hope you'll continue to hold . . .

[Peter Frank]

43. Lexicon -- Please read this...

First off, this person most likely has sought the council of a person or group that has this severe anti-abortion stance. If so, this is no time to back off. The more distance, the more he/she will get entrenched in this mode of thought.

If I were you I might be inclined to ask who he/she's been speaking with. If the conversation is still closed, I'd leave him/her with a few points and questions to ponder:

1) Only an insane person would actually like abortion.

2) Young women are going to have abortions whether they're legal or not.

3) If your daughter were pregnant and decided to secretly obtain an abortion, would you want her to go to a back alley sleaze ball with a coat-hanger and pen knife?

4) Before Roe v Wade, only wealthier women could afford to find American doctors to do the procedure, or to go out of the country for it. Poorer women died in much greater numbers, while the advantaged just "went out of town" for a while.

5) Republican women get abortions too.

6) Many girls get pregnant from rape and incest (often by their fathers).

7) The decision to go to war in Iraq was a decision responsible for the killing of thousands of peaceful Iraqi citizens. ...Among them are -- babies and pregnant mothers.

I'd ask my friend to think about these things before believing that one side of the aisle has the right to claim moral superiority.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[winston61]

58. What about all the other 14 year olds?

What if little Susie don't know what condoms are and what they are for? If Susie's parents refuse to tell her about birth control and she engages in sex, guess what? And Susie's parents tell the school board not to teach sex education, again guess what? You cannot expect an old head on young shoulders. Kids do respond to education, but only if they are educated. No information going in, no processing going on.

[SilverSeraphim]

73. I agree that we need better sex-ed

And not just the abstinance only programs. But, honestly, if little Susuie's parents are the type to get the vapors over sex-ed, what makes you think they're the type to make her get an abortion? More likely, they'd cloister her somewhere till the baby is born, then immediately place it for adoption.

Not to mention that you'd have to have been raised in a cave not to know what condoms are, in this day and age.

[kimchi]

76. You are absolutely right.

Women (or girls) who are raped should just suck it up and know that it is God's will they have a child. When the condom breaks? A sign from God. When the pill, taken religiously, doesn't work? Again--God wants you to have a child.

At least we don't have to worry about late term abortions anymore. Praise! Some babies will actually get to live for a few minutes! And, if parents have to sell their house to afford the specialized care of a severely handicapped child--well; that will just teach you that you can't afford more kids.

Absolutely, personal responsibility. I read a perfect example today of two young lovers who probably thought they were acting responsibly when the girl allowed the boy to beat her with a blunt object to terminate the pregnancy. Too bad they weren't in Iraq so I wouldn't have to care about it. We all know it is okay to kill innocent children who happen to get in the way of your bombs, but a sin to kill a 1 inch fetus on purpose. Personal responsibility, and all.

[SilverSeraphim]

115. I'd like the record to show that I'm a Pagan

and not a fundie.

Condom breaks? Pill fails? Yeah, someone was asleep at the switch. It was human error, not divine intervention.

A woman gets raped? Again, it's human failing and not divine intervention.

What I'm talking about are people who won't use birth control because "it doesn't feel as good" or "It gives me a rash" or "Oh I can never remember to take it".

[kimchi]

122. Sounds like you are a Pagan fundie.

Human failings, yes--but not the WOMAN's failings. Since the gov't won't let me sue the condom manufacturer or the pill manufacturer or the rapist to pay for the resulting 9 months of pregnancy and 18 years of food and shelter--the fucking least it could do is let me make the decision on how to deal with the resulting parasite.

As has been the normal course of most written history; it is the WOMAN who has to pay for someone else's mistake (aka: human failing). As far as "people who won't use birth control" for some reason; it is neither our place to judge them or to prevent them from seeking the same medical procedures to which we "responsible" people have access--nor are "those people" the majority of those seeking abortions.

You aren't pro-choice by your own admission (or should I say Omission?) In the eyes of many posters here, including myself, that makes you anti-woman. Personally, I don't know any anti-woman Pagans; but I know they are out there.

[SilverSeraphim]

128. Please tell me how my baby is a parasite?

How my beautiful intelligent little girl- who at 17 months can say "Ni-ni mama", "I wuv da-da", who sings to herself, who can use sign language to tell me she wants more- tell me how she is a parasite.

I'm not anti- woman, but I'm sure as hell not anti- baby, either.

[Cheswick2.0]

130. she's not a parasite anymore

now that she is living.

[SilverSeraphim]

133. How was she not living before she was born?

Are you saying I was carrying around some undead thing in my womb for nine months?

[kimchi]

135. Anything that feeds off your body is a parasite.

My daughter is smart as well and I love her more than myself. But while she was growing she stole my energy. Of course I don't mind that I aged 10 years overnight; but that doesn't change the fact that she was a parasite, and I was the host.

Now she is a little girl.

I thought when I checked your profile previously that you were male. I see you have taken up crochet all of a sudden. My bad.

[SilverSeraphim]

136. So by that logic...

I had the right to abort up until she was 9 months old. I breastfed her for 9 months. She was feeding off of me. So that would have made her a parasite?

[kimchi]

138. Oh come on; you can try harder than that.

First of all, I don't believe you are a woman because you changed your profile. Secondly, once a baby is born it ceases to be a parasite and becomes a beloved nuisance; that is dependent upon you to feed it some sort of milk (breast, cow, goat). At 4 months you can start feeding it gruel. But being the primary caregiver to your daughter, you knew that.

Just curious but I'm befuddled as to what kind of Pagan you are, being into RPGs and all that. Asatru?

[SilverSeraphim]

139. Huh?

When did I change my profile? I've always been a woman.

As for what type of Pagan, I'm just Pagan. A solitaire practitioner.

[SilverSeraphim]

140. And why can't an unborn child just be considered a beloved nuisance?

[Cheswick2.0]

86. this is such right wing crap

1) I am pretty sure we didn't bomb london. Hitler did that and he was wrong because his was a war of aggression. We are wrong because ours is a war of aggession. So there is no reason for us to be killing people at all. None of those people are living inside us and threatening our future or our life.

2)biologically a fetus is not separate from the woman. If it were all our problems would be solved.

3)birth control is not 100 hundred percent effective. Don't want an women to have abortions.. lets sterilize all men.

4) There are not enough adoptive parents to adopt all the babies that would be born.

5) if each fertilized egg is so precious how come God lets millions of them get flushed down the toilet during womens menstral cycles?

[SilverSeraphim]

107. .

A) No, we didn't bomb London, but we did warn the people in Fallujah we were coming in.

B)A fetus has it's own unique DNA code from the start. The circulatory systems are separate. All it's doing is filling up otherwise empty space.

C)Abstinance is, and use properly birth control is overwhelmingly, if not perfectly, effective.

D)They're aren't? Then why do people wait for years on lists, or go overseas to adopt? And parents can adopt more than one kid.

E) If it was part of the regular menstual cycle it wasn't fertilized. And in the cases of early term miscarriages, well, I don't believe the gods directly affect everything that happens to us.

I'm a leftie, just not rabidly so.

[Cheswick2.0]

129. wrong

your opinion about the war is immoral and uninformed. Here is a link for you. Read it and see what is really happening and BTW we aren't talking about Fallujah. The whole war was wrong. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FK18Ak03.html

You are the one who made the point about london... a really bad comparison I might add.

People are not abstinent... male sterilization is a good alternative because BC is not perfectly effective. I worked in the field so please don't bother to try and pass off bullshit as information.

Your regular menstral cycle often contains fertilized eggs that don't attach to the uterine wall. Don't you know that? Not all fertilized eggs become pregnancies.

You're no lefty... bye bye

[SilverSeraphim]

132. I'm not a lefty?

Just because I don't support one particular viewpoint?

On that logic, they need to toss Arlen Specter out of the Republican party.

Just because I don't support elective abortion doesn't mean I support Bush and his gang. Bush is an incompetant moron, and those around him are trying to shield him from the worst of his mistakes. I mean come on- No Child Left Behind? He still thinks that's a good idea?

[ComerPerro]

51. "pro-life" people are completely full of shit

They don't give a shit about lives, about the unborn, or about anything. They just like the feeling of self-righteousness that "sticking up for the unborn" gives them.

The funny thing is, why don't they give a fuck about helping the fetuses once they become people? For all the "pro-life" crowd cares, these kids could starve to death. They don't give a shit.

In a lot of ways, the Iraq "liberation" is a lot like the "pro-life" movement. The people supporting the Iraq war don't care about Iraqis, it never seemed to bother them when Saddam, as our ally, was killing his own people, and they sure as shit don't care how many of them we kill in the process of "liberating" them. The only reason they pretend to care is to make themselves feel important.

Why is it that most examples of conservative compassion are usually overblown bullshit and hot air?


Edit: D'oh! My star is gone! Ahhh!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

52. LOFL. What bullshit.

I don't believe for one second that you had
a reasonable discussion with this "person" leading
up to that e-mail.

Here's the other post from you available through search, entitled:

"Democrats controll democrat countys"

"Get a grip, if there is voter fraud going on it is by the democrats that are in control of the democrat voting counties. take some tin foyil off sheesh."

You're transparent.

[MissB]

98. Tell me you've hit alert

Sometimes the mods miss these things. It helps to point them. out.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

119. Shhhhh ...

Not supposed to mention that.
Everybody must have their fr**p-detectors turned off.

[MissB]

120. Seriously,

it's like a raging rash around here tonight.

[morillon]

125. Interesting point. Could very well be a troll.

Particularly with the use of "Democrat" instead of "Democratic." That Newt-language will expose 'em every time.

Edit: In fact, I'm sure it's a troll now, because the misspellings are the same in the message supposedly from the wacko who's arguing with him in email.

[__Inanna__]

141. I knew it

what a waste of bandwidth

[iamthebandfanman]

55. like other have said

tell 'em how abortion rate has gone up under ole shrub

and also point out what someone else posted on the forum today..
and thats..
would they rather it get handled like this?

http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0411/17/A01-7649.htm
"Investigators said a pregnant 16-year-old girl allowed her boyfriend to beat her with a miniature baseball bat to cause a miscarriage, which may lead to criminal charges against the teens and one of their parents."

either way, people will find a way to not have an unwanted child.

[Flammable Materials]

62. Meanwhile, rich white Republican women will always have access ...

... to safe abortions. If they can't get them here, they'll just take a flight overseas. Hell, their husbands might even be able to write it off as a business expense.

[hinachan]

59. No, don't back down....

That's what's wrong with us Dems. We let the shrieking Repukes "win" arguments by backing down.

What this woman needs to understand is:

1) FEWER abortions were done during Clinton's term, and MORE abortions are being done under Bush's term, because Bush isn't allowing enough women to get birth control. THE BEST WAY TO STOP ABORTIONS IS TO PREVENT UNWANTED PREGNANCY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Tell her that anyone who disagrees with birth control isn't too serious about wanting to stop abortions, and therefore the "murders" are on THEIR hands, not yours. Because you're TRYING to prevent unwanted pregnancies, which are the one and only cause of abortion.

2) If she REALLY cares about protecting babies, she'd be well-informed about the issue of Depleted Uranium. This is what's causing our servicemen and servicewomen to produce babies (WANTED babies!) that are either deformed or striken with ailments like leukemia or cancer. This has happened in both Gulf wars. A former friend of mine has a brother who served in Gulf War I, and fathered a baby girl born with two vaginas, which required surgical repair shortly after her birth. Because the Iraqi people (who also WANT their babies) are exposed to even more of this than our troops, the incidence of hideous deformities or cancer are even higher. The anti-abortion wackos are quick to show photos of abortions, so show her some of these pictures...let's see if she's as willing to save THESE babies, or if her racism will shine through.

THESE ARE GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THESE CHILDREN...SEND THEM TO THIS WOMAN:

Is she trying to save these babies?


Or how about this one, born without a face...but with a gaping hole in its head?


Or this one, born with anencephaly:


Hey, anti-abortion wacko, think this poor kid will be casting his vote for Bush anytime soon?


No this isn't a botched abortion...just a gift from Dubya:


Another happy, liberated Iraqi child who's so glad you're doing your bit to "protect the unborn"...or doesn't she give a damn, now that his umbilical cord has been cut?


Gee, why aren't you smiling, kiddo...aren't you even grateful that you weren't aborted? Dear God, right-wingers make me sick! :puke:


Hey, lady, wanna adopt this one? Oh, sorry, I guess you can't...it's too dead to thank you for fighting for the rights of the unborn. :mad:


Show this woman her tax dollars at work:


Every anti-abortion hypocrite should be forced to look at these pages:
http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/iraq/depleteduraniumcatastrophe.htm
http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/iraq/birthdeformities1.htm

Challenge this woman, as I challenge any anti-abortion freak who dares cross me...

How dare you call any Democrat a "murderer", when your Republican President is unleashing this hell upon the WANTED babies of Iraqi civilians AND the troops he claims to support?

3) You might also conclude with...just as it's true that, "If you don't vote, you don't have the right to complain", "If you don't adopt at least one child, you don't have the right to complain about abortions."

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to get away from my computer for a while, after seeing these images....

[SilverSeraphim]

81. Jesus H. Christ!!!

You don't think that wasn't disturbing for the rest of us?!?!?! A LINK WOULD HAVE BEEN SUFFICIENT!!!!

[MissB]

102. Actually, a warning would've been better

Usually we suggest that they edit their title to include a warning of graphic content.

[Cheswick2.0]

103. the rest of "us"

yeah...okay

Look at the pictures, this is the spoils of war. Try obsessing over that for awhile and leave women's rights alone.

[ogradda]

137. unfuckingbelieveable

and hours later that post is still up.

[jmowreader]

172. I'm glad it's still up

Just copy the URL into a sticky note or something and send it to all the anti-abortion people who e-mail you.

That's right. Anti-abortion, not pro-life. Someone who was really pro-life wouldn't be supporting George Bush, the most prolific serial killer who has ever lived in the White House.

[uhhuh]

144. I think the post was right on the mark

Coupling the horrors of radiation related birth defects with the
usual imagery of the "pro-life" movement can give one a sense
that the two events may be equally tragic.

Realize that you may view aborting a fetus as a vile thing, but
overwhelmingly vile things also occur when you poison innocent
living things.
Leave others to decide their level of revulsion with these

babies pictures. It is no more severe a display than
you might see outside a planned parenthood clinic. It may be
even less so, considering these children were probably hoped for.

I find that some people feel unprepared to have children, but
don't you think that it would be best for those who have an
idea that they would not be able to provide a safe,loving,and
opportunity filled life for them not have them?
To the families of those pictured here, I mourn for them.

[uhhuh]

117. As disturbing as those photos are

I thank you for posting them. People need to see what the consequences of their selfishness are.

Those who claim to be "pro-life' don't have any problem parading around with bloody baby pictures. They should see what irresponsible use of horrible weaponry can do to children they claim to be intent on saving. I don't ever see a group of them protesting to end the use of depleted uranium weapons.

[Zorra]

77. I hayte Bu$h az mutch az anywon, but ______________(fill in the blanks)

[Bluebear]

85. That's "blank's"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Add apostraphy's on any word ending with S and LOT'S of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ???????????????????????????

[Zorra]

95. Oh yeah, I forgot-- but you spelt apostrophees rong, to!!!!!!

;)

[messyca]

123. Ask her this.......

You should tell this woman she is very fortunate to have never been a pregnant teen, without family support, without money and without a job. She's fortunate to be so well loved.

I know girls who have had abortions, and I have cared for pregnant teens who chose adoption with both good and bad outcomes, and helped women who decided to keep their children. Each situation is different, I've known girls who have been raped, Who have conceived while on the pill, and many many girls too naive to understand that the rhythm method and pulling out, are not effective forms of birth control! I've been to planned parenthood with some of these girls (and none of them got abortions)They received information and contacts for every imaginable option, and counseling if they chose.

Ask her if she knows what it feels like to be alone and desperate, with a fetus growing within her. Does she know what it feels like to have her whole life change for the worse, in a blink of an eye, while the man who planted his seed, is off with other women, oblivious, and completely unaffected the situation. This girl has to deal with the pain, and physical changes of pregnancy, and has to deal with the situation emotionally, while her boyfriend, rapist, or what-have-you, does not. She could abort the baby and be just as care free as the man involved, or she could put it up for adoption (though it may end up in foster care if an adoptive parent is not found, or have to care for it herself if the man involved, decides not to sign the papers) or she can carry it to term, with no prenatal care, no job, no education and just pray for the best. She may even have a natural miscarriage that ends up hospitalizing her or perhaps even kills her.
I don't know how common these hypothetical situations are, but I've heard them, in various forms, from many of these women.

Ask her how she feels about illegal, unregulated, dangerous abortions that women had, and died from, before roe vs wade. Ask her how she feels about children born developmentally disabled, seriously deformed or premature, due of a lack of prenatal care, or a botched do-it-yourself abortion(many of them will spend their lives in foster care or institutional facilities, a few may not even survive long out of the womb.)

Ask her why she seems to think all the woman who have had abortions do so, because they simply feel like it, or because it's convenient. Does she really think that these woman are simply monsters, while she is a righteous crusader of good? Let her sit in on a support group for women who have had an abortion, or given up their child for adoption, or a group for women struggling with raising a child alone, and ask her if she still thinks she's better than them, or if she still thinks they're evil, promiscuous monsters.

Chances are nothing will ever knock this woman off her high horse, but At least give it a try. And take comfort in the fact that karma's a bitch, and this may become a reality that will hit a little closer to home for her.

This is a tricky issue, and it's far too complicated to view it as a black and white issue. Lets keep abortions legal, safe and seldom.

[LittleClarkie]

131. One can't be separated from the other

You can't call yourself pro-life if you care about the pre-born but not the post born. You can't support a party that is pro-gun and pro-war, and then talk about being pro-life.

At least not to me, anyway.

[Jack Schitt]

134. He's pro-life and doesn't care about Iraq?

Isn't that a prime example of an oxymoron?

What a fuckin' nutcase!

[johnaries]

143. I think the first line is very telling about the person...

"I'm afraid people like ME are the only reason you are still alive in this country". People like ME. This person is very ego - centric, and you will never be able to convince them with any kind of logic. They use graphic, emotional imagery and intense to make their point - they will never listen to any kind of rational response. If you want to get their attention, I would suggest telling them that they don't only NOT care about murders in Iraq, they don't really care about unborn babies, either. All they care about is being RIGHT, and proving that they are right. Tell them to stop pretending that they have a soul, because they obviously have no sympathy for anyone. They are cold, heartless, and evil and they are only pretending to care. If they truly cared, they would try to understand someone else's situation, just as Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." But they won't, because they can't see the log in their own eye. Because they don't have a soul.
Maybe that'll get them!

[shockra]

145. From a radical feminist's perspective...

I think this is a good example of how closely related racism and sexism are. It's pretty much universally agreed in feminist literature that anti-abortionists are really obsessed with controlling women's bodies rather than protecting fetus's feelings. Also, this girl admits to not caring one whit about Iraqis, or Iraqi babies, for that matter. Right-wingers are inclined to be white supremacists.

Liberal feminists don't go far enough in their analysis of *why* control over women's reproduction is so important to men. It takes a radical (and lesbian) feminist, like Marilyn Frye, to see the broader picture. She says that white men are concerned about keeping their racial dominance, and have to control white women in order to do it. I would assume that it's generally a subconscious fear, but it's described more consciously, for example, by those in the KKK. Mentioned in her book The Politics of Reality:

"Edward Fields, a principal ideologue and propagandist for the Klan, was asked if homosexuals are a threat to the white race. He replied that they are, and went on to say: "Our birthrate is extremely low. We're below population zero, below 2.5 children per family. The white race is going down fast, we're only 12 percent of the world population. In 1990 we'll only be 10 percent of the population worldwide. We'll be an extinct species if homosexuality continues to grow, interracial marriage continues to take people out of the white race, if our birthrate continues to fall." (Quoted in "Into the Fires of Hatred: A Portrait of Klan Leader Edward Fields," in Gay Community News, 1982)

Frye writes:

"In the all white or mostly white environments I have usually lived and worked in, when the women start talking up feminism and lesbian feminism, we are very commonly challenged with the claim that if we had our way, the species would die out. (The assumption our critics make here is that if women had a choice, we would never have intercourse and never bear children. This reveals a lot about the critics' own assessment of the joys of sex, pregnancy, birthing and motherhood.)

They say the species would die out. What I suspect is that the critics confuse the white race with the human species, just as men have confused males with the human species. What the critics are saying, once it is decoded, is that the white race might die out. The demand that white women make white babies to keep the race afloat has not been overt, but I think it is being made over and over again in disguised form as a preachment within an all-white context about our duty to keep the species afloat."

She also notes that:

"This is probably part of the explanation of why the backlash against feminism overlaps in time and personnel with renewed intensity and overtness of white racism in this country. When their control of 'their' women is threatened, their confidence in their racial dominance is threated."

This idea seemed pretty wild when I first read it a few years ago, but the more examples I've seen lately of Bush voters who are "pro-life" yet pro-genocide of Iraqis, the more inclined I am to give it credence.

[The White Tree]

164. This is an interesting viewpoint

and one seems plausible among several groups of people. But I don't think it is appliable among the majority of people who are Pro-Life.

I remember reading a Washington Post Op-Ed by George Will several years ago about a couple of teenagers who secretly had a baby in Delaware and dropped it in a dumpster. The teens were discovered, arrested and were to be tried for the offense (can't remember the charge). The gist of Will's column was that if they had a few days earlier gone to a clinic and had an abortion then they would not be considered criminals but were now. In his mind he did not see the difference those few days made and his viewpoint, projected with vehement disgust, was how could we consider them criminals now but not a few days before the birth, that this was hypocritical.

As a person who is Pro-Choice I find it exceedingly difficult to counter this argument and am not sure I even have the will to try.

While this is an extreme example, I think it is one that very easily crystalizes in many peoples minds what they beleive about abortion. At that point it is very easy for people who do not do a lot of soul searching and who look to others for their moral compass to be brought to the point that conception is life and life is to be protected. Once they are grounded in that belief almost nothing can be done to change their minds.

[doni_georgia]

146. You cannot reason with people like this

For this person, his/her soul raison d'etre is the abortion issue. This person is one who has been so brainwashed into believing that liberal=baby killer, that they won't ever hear much less believe anything you say. My experience with these types of people has been that they do NOTHING in their lives to help the living. They don't care about the living. They spend all their energies trying to stop abortions, yet once that baby is out of the womb - it's on its own. I know this woman who is obsessed with stopping abortion. She won't even take birth control, because she heard on her "quiver-full" email list that the pill works by stopping implantation - thus performing an "abortion." She's an idiot. This same woman has so many kids she can't take care of them. The last time I spoke to her, she couldn't even go anywhere, because they didn't have a car big enough to hold their family, and two of her kids didn't have shoes (she won't take hand outs from me). They are on medicaid, her husband makes about $9/hr and she stays home to homeschool (she has no education and doesn't teach her kids). Her own two neices are in the foster care system, because her sister-in-law was on drugs while pregnant, so the kids were taken from her when she tested positive for crack. Not a soul in the family would take those girls in - mom is getting the punishment she deserved they say, because she sinned (the kids were born out of wedlock, so the family doesn't recognize them). What about the kids? This woman would have had a complete fit if the sister-in-law had an abortion, but yet birthing babies addicted to crack is all right, and once the kids were here - no one gives a rat's ass about them. Pretty well sums these people up!

[tsuki]

149. I DO NOT CARE about IRAQ why should ANY of that shit matter

to me?

Because you just murdered 1172 American Soldiers (our children) so you could fill your SUV and drive to Walmarts.

Because you just murdered untold numbers of women and child with your carpet bombing of Iraq so you could fill that SUB.

Because you support allowing children to starve everywhere, including the US to keep that money for your SUV.

Because you deny health care to children everywhere, including the US rather than give up that SUV.

But you have latched on to the one issue that allows you to ignore the misery and plight of children, that lets you wrap yourself in a robe of self righteous indignation, makes you feel better about yourself.

Social justice is not an ego trip.

[BiggJawn]

154. So how many abortions HAVE you had?

That's a pretty crappy debating tool. Wonder how loud they'd squeal if you sent them pictures of maimed/dead Iraqi children with a note saying "YOU did this!"?

I suppose you could ask them why these "babies" are less precious when they turn 18 and get sent off to die in PNAC's wars, but logic is not these people's strong suit.

Pastor told them that this is what Jeebus told them at 4AM piss-call, they believe it, that settles it.

Pow'ful stuff, that Kool-Aid, moughty pow'ful stuff!

[suziestar]

155. Your ONLY Error

...was to naively believe you could change the mind of someone with that mindSET. I think you've learned this. What would I have done? Early on I would have planted a knawing seed of doubt by telling them that bUSH had an affair with cONDI, got her pregnant and she aborted. Then I would have blocked this person and walked away.

As far as I'm concerned, and I've been sayng it for DECADES:

bUSH = 666

What to do now? Hopefully you will have learned a lesson and should instead focus your good intentions on the entire forest and not the individual trees. Apply your focus on regaining control of the voting system and the media.

[The White Tree]

156. Here is my Belief

It is deeply personnel and comes from a lot of soul searching.

My wife and I got married later in life then is usual and have been trying to have a child for several years. As far as we know there is no danger to my wifes health if she were to become pregnant. However if she did and the doctor told us that there was a chance that she could have severe health problems and/or die while giving birth then we would have to make a decision about what to do. My wife is my world, at the same time my desire to raise a child is very strong. Regardless of the choice that was made our lives would be changed forever.

At this point I would support my wife's decision whatever it was 100% regardless of the impact on my life. I think I know the choice she'd make but it really doesn't matter. I would not, and as a Catholic, could not judge her or her choice.

How could I not apply that same standard to other human beings. I may not personally agree with those decisions, but I cannot judge them, I am not in their shoes. And how can anyone presume to say that they know how God would judge them?

That being said, I think there is work to be done to try to reduce the staggering number of abortions that occur in the world and I think Democrats shouldn't be afraid to try to find ways to address this issue and combat the perception that the party is Pro-Abortion, which I do not believe it is. I think this is one of the things that marginalizes our party.

As an example - during the presidential campaign both conservative columnists at the NY Times wrote OP-EDs trying to make the point that John Kerry was weaker morally on issue because he said he felt life begins at conception but was still Pro-Choice. The gist was that these 2 beliefs were fundamentally opposed and could not morally exist in one person. This is a hard argument to counter. I think Kerry did so affectively by stating in one of the debates that he felt this was a decision that resided between a women, her doctor and her God. Perhaps he could have gone further though by stating that at the same time, as president he would make it a goal to create conditions in America that would reduce the number of abortions, thru education, health care, better economic opportunity.

I think that the majority of people are not necessarily opposed to the Pro-Choice point of view, rather they are overwhelmed by the numbers of what they view as innocent lives that are ended from abortions. And people are not really sure how to effectively help reduce the numbers because that is hard work that involves getting involved and sacrifice (On Edit - I include myself in this). Making abortion illegal is convenient because it allows people to feel they helped save lives and to rationalize away all the realities of why people choose to have abortions. Sadly, it is my belief that, as far as Catholics are concerned. This is really the opposite of our religion. We can try to persuade and try to help and we can serve others but we cannot force them to do what we think is right. No person can save another persons soul. Only God has dominion over our souls.

Not sure this is helpful to you but it has been helpful to me to think about this in this way. Thanks and Good Luck however you respond.

[tanyev]

157. Do you have "Block sender" option?

Use it.

[Iris]

160. Plenty of women who've had abortions vote Republican.

Who is he trying to kid?

Who is this person to you? He sounds like he needs some kind of medication. Why is HE responsible for rescuing all the babies?

And does he really think "you've all" had abortions? That's quite an assumption. And he goes further - suggeesting "you've all" had more than one abortion. Like some women have them every month.

I guess you could try to explain to him that you are in favor of social safety nets that would help women who find themselves facing an unplanned pregnancy be able to at least survive financially. The usual progressive stuff - adequate pre-natal care, decent child care opportunites, or better yet, up to 12 months PAID Maternity leave . . .

(Of course, I guess this could be a woman as well. Still crazy.)

[RUDUing2]

161. my response and you are welcome to use it

I'm afraid people like ME are the only reason you are still alive in this country.


"Actually people like you are responsible for more deaths then people like me ever will be."


You will never win against us, so stop trying to convince me that I'm wrong.... Yours are the forces of death, actually that of outwright slaughter... you murder your own children. and see nothing wrong with it. this ONE issue is enough to stop me dead in my tracks.. I DO NOT CARE about IRAQ why should ANY of that shit matter to me? when you MURDER your own baby........


"To begin with I am the mother of 4 children, I have had 5 pregnancies and miscarried 2 children. How many kids did you say you have? I have never advocated a single death...in fact I work very hard to prevent deaths...the deaths of the already the born, that seem to have no meaning to you. Apparently once that child is born they no longer are important. I think you need to do some long hard thinking about you lack of love and concern for the living and about your worship of the fetus. You are aware that unborn babies are being killed in Iraq aren't you? Or do you think that there are no pregnant women over there? Your statement is one of the most hatefilled anti life pro death rants I have ever had the misfortune to read. "



Think about that for a second. you MURDER your OWN F*CKING CHILD..a baby has NO ability to defend himself a baby that can't even walk or stop the 'doctor' from stabbing them inside their mothers womb, where they must think they are loved and safe (the 'holy' fighters you talk about in Iraq at least have ak47's and can hold them and have had a chance at life).



"YOu are really claiming that the children and infants and preborn in Iraq have AK47's...oh I forgot it is only AMERICAN pre born that you are concerned about. Also if you would like I can send you some scientific and medical information about abortion and also some biblical and jewish info (you are aware aren't you that the Bible was written for and about Jews and that in it abortion is not condemned and that it is not condemned by current Jews (you are also aware aren't you that Christ was a religious jew?) )"



You're his mother and you're suppose to protect him....


"Apparently you are not able to use logic and realize that there are different ways of protecting people. I also have a responsiblity to others (like the Bible tells us) and to try and protect them. Protect young scared women from butchery because fanatics like you can not see past their own twisting of religion."


how does it make you feel? because you are just as guilty as anybody that has done it.

"I feel very sorry that anyone can be as filled with hate as you, and that anybody could be so anti-life and pro-death while deluding themselves that they are not. I will pray that you recieve the help you need to bring some comfort to your soul."



I'd like to catagorically go through and tell you why you are wrong but you'd never even get it, and you are probably too busy with your bloody hands and blood soaked grin from murdering your latest baby.


"Go ahead and tell me..but be prepared for me to show you the errors of your claims. It would probably be good for you to get some of that hate out of your system that seems to be consuming you from within. And while I doubt if you will believe my replies in your blind rage and hatred, maybe some it will still soak in subconsciously and help you to heal."



have a nice night

and to all the defenseless babys out there that are being ripped from their mothers womb and slaughtered with a cold knife and vaccume: we are trying , we are trying hard baby and we are coming...one day we will be there to save you from these barbarians. I am sorry that I couldn't be there sooner sweetheart but i'm trying I promise I'm trying :("


"And I promise to continue fighting to protect women, to protect life and to make sure that every baby is a wanted and loved and protected baby. Not one thrown away by society and forgotten as soon as they exit the birth canal."

[0007]

162. Sounds like troll bate to me! El paso

[Mad_Dem_X]

163. Two Words: Fetus Fetish

People like this sicken me to no end. They are obsessed with fetuses, to the point that it's almost a love affair ("Don't worry, sweetheart," etc.). But, of course, once the kid is out of the mother and living in the world, these people couldn't care less what happens to him/her. Hence the indifference to war, the love of capital punishment (which most of them agree with, despite calling themselves "pro-life"), the passion for guns.

Sick, sick people, the lot of 'em.

[Iris]

173. well, there is currently an "infant fetish" in this country and

it consists of a mother basically being expected to be a servant to her children, so the fetus fetish is a reasonable prelude to that.

It's obvious what these people don't care about is the fact that women are individuals with desires and dreams of their own as well as the capacity to NUTURE (not be enlsaved to) children and other living things.

[deutsey]

165. Maybe send this person some pictures of dead and injured Iraqi babies

At the very least, maybe this loon will have a little compassion for babies and children already here as well.

Otherwise, it's obvious this person is not open to any kind of reasonable debate or discussion. I have conservative friends with whom I can argue and discuss issues and we'll come out of these encounters as friends. I have other friends, however, who, for whatever reason, have gone off the deepend in their political and religious beliefs.

I found this out recently with one friend of mine. Unknown to me, he had become a real extreme fundamentalist since I knew him in college years ago. I'm a Unitarian Universalist, so I'm pretty much on the opposite end of the spectrum from fundamentalism, but I come out of a Christian background and have no hostility toward Christianity like some UU's do (I just don't have much patience for extremists who twist what Jesus preached into hatred).

I tried to show him how I respected his beliefs and to show him why I believe as I do. Not to challenge him, but in the hope that he could at least understand why I believe as I do.

His response always involved long diatribes about how I'm going to HELL (he'd capitalize words like that) and then he'd throw a bunch of Bible verses at me.

As much as I liked him at one time, I have to say since we mutually agreed to part company, I don't miss him much after these encounters with him.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

166. I want this psycho's e-mail. Can you PM it to me? (nt)