Believe in Jesus or suffer eternally? What?

[The Night Owl]

So, let me get this straight... According to Christian fundamentalists, regardless of how I live my life, I must accept Christ as Saviour or suffer in Hell for the rest of eternity? The rest of eternity. Sheesh! Talk about the punishment not fitting the crime! Forever is a hell of a long time to punish someone. What kind of cruel God would damn souls for eternity for not believing in something which is totally unproven? I just don't get it.

[ogradda]

1. i don't believe it myself

God is not an asshole.

[jayfish]

35. I Have A Question?

Why do people, of all faiths, think they can pick and choose the parts of thier religion they are going to follow based on the values of the time?

Jay

[buckettgirl]

46. I can only speak for myself

I am Pagan, but I do try to study anything I can about all religions. To me it isn't about picking something based on "the values of the time", but picking what seems to make the most since and that I can best apply to my life. I also pick parts of different religions to follow because I believe that all religions are different paths the same end, and therefore cannot be wrong - or maybe we're all wrong, I don't know any more than the next person. They all have something valuable to offer. For as long as I can remember, my values have centered around hope, tolerance, and attaining inner peace. That hasn't changed for me, and I don't base my values on those that society deems important or appropriate.

[jayfish]

53. Until Science Can Theorize...

the origin of the Big Bang, I would go with the fact that we are all wrong. I think that if a supreme entity(s) does exists, it is so far outside of our ability to comprehend as to be forever invisible. I also think any such entity would operate more like a plant then an animal. A plant lives, breaths and gives life. But it is in no-way conscious of it's existence. There real kicker is; what created this entity? Just my .02 and thanks for the honest response.

Jay

[buckettgirl]

55. You make alot of sense

I have pondered that myself. I do have to believe that whatever humans think God is (any religion), they have only touched the tip of the iceberg and that 'god' would be beyond comprehension.
And even if we are all wrong, its still good to have something to keep faith in (fact or fiction). For some, faith is all they got.

[indigobusiness]

112. Perhaps it is all an entity

realizing itself?

[chicagiana]

95. Christians are pagans too !!!!

They simply do not realize the deliberate pagan echoes in Christian faith. All Christians are also sun worshipers. That is, except for the Jesus Jews and the Seventh day Adventists who worship on Saturday (the day of Saturn) instead of Sunday (the day the sun worshipers and Dionysiun (god man) cultists met).

If you have a Christmas tree, you're a pagan.
If you "do Easter Eggs", you're a pagan.
If you celebrate All Hollows Eve, your a pagan.
St Patricks day ??? Paganism, Saints are masked minor dieties. Valentines ... same thing.


So leave us non-pagan Alvians alone will you !!!!! ;-)

[ogradda]

59. i don't know

for myself, i believe what goes with what's inside of me. i wish i could think of a better way to explain it.

[indigobusiness]

54. God is not an Asshole?

I want a tee shirt...XL

[Divine Discontent]

153. Everyone gets there chance to accept God

It's as simple as that, if you believe in creation you need then to have FAITH in things that we cannot see, that's what FAITH is, see? and then if you believe in creation, and see the majesty of this existence as being something more than a bug's life, then one hopefully will see the sacrifice Jesus made to pay for our sins so that we can spend an eternity in heaven with him because we accepted the challenge of life and believing in something that you must have FAITH to accept.

with the faith of a child, your life can change, just what I think.

[CarbonDate]

159. I know you mean well....

...so I'll just say thank you for caring, but I disagree with your religious views. I'm sure we can agree to disagree, pending further evidence.

[Politicub]

161. It wasn't much of a sacrifice

Sorry. I grew up hearing about this sacrifice each Sunday, but I never thought it to be that big of a deal. Come on -- this is supposed to be God. It's a nice myth, but in terms of sacrifice, there are Iraqis dying more brutally every day than what Jesus went through.

Christianity needs a more powerful myth.

[BeTheChange]

162. But see, the power wasnt in the death..

Today's Laocidean church focuses on the death of Christ being the lesson. It doesnt talk as much about the life of Christ.

The life of Jesus Christ is what is extraordinary. The act of washing his disciples feet, pardoning a prostitute, making some wine to continue a celebration at Galilee...

After the Old Testament was written the New Testament's message of hope and salvation was given through the foreshadowing of the life and death of Jesus to remind us that there is hope. There is magic. There is good.

Are the Iraqi's suffering horribly? Yes, there is no denying that. But baking on a crucifix doesnt sound like a walk in the park to me. Son of God or not, he was still a man.

Even if you see the Bible as nothing more then a parable.. a tall tale, a control mechanism..

What I dont get is why some people, not the poster Im replying to, seem to spew such venom at religion. It's people's own interpretation that screws it all up. But people are fallible, that's the whole lesson..

So, if you try your best for knowledge and to do good to your neighbors regardless of where they live in the world and let go of your ego.. isnt it all the same anyway?

[Bill McBlueState]

172. why is your post all in boldface?

Do you think people are more likely to believe you if you use a font trick?

[SaintAnne]

2. me too

I don't get it, I'll probably never get it. But don't worry there are lots of people who will never get it, and will never want to get it. Just believe what you want to believe.

[Divine Discontent]

154. nah... you'll get it. because I think you rock! n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hawkeye Pierce]

4. yep that is how they interpet the bible

personally I don't believe in God or any of that stuff.

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. Not a believer either

And it suits me just fine.

[amber dog democrat]

5. Neither

That's just their opinion. Fundies are already in hell. They just don't know it yet.

[ionchemyst]

155. Fundies

Fundies are already in hell.

Yeah, but it's their desire to import the rest of us that is a little annoying.

[drdtroit]

6. Control, COntrOL, CoNtRoL, CONtROL, CONTROL!!! n/t

[indigobusiness]

58. You summed it up in one word.

Yet, became quite redundant.

[drdtroit]

141. I wanted to address all sects. :-) n/t

[SnowGoose]

7. There are fundies who believe the punishment is not eternal...

To be fair, you don't have to stretch too far, either, since the bible says that all traces of sin will be gone some day. How could that be if 'sinners' got eternal life as well (albeit not a very pleasant one).

There are also those xians who believe that even people who grew up in some part of the world not reached by evangelism, who never even *heard* of christianity will get the same eternity in hell.

All in all, it's hard to imagine a book which is more opaque ambiguous than the bible. That alone should be enough for a reasonable observer to question whether it is really the most important message to humanity from an all-wise and all-powerful deity.

[buckettgirl]

32. Ya know,

the History Channel had a show on a few weeks back that talked about the Bible and aliens. It was interesting, and provided good evidence that perhaps, christianity and the bible were influenced by aliens!
kinda makes ya think

[SnowGoose]

50. I have to believe...

that any species smart enough to figure out interstellar travel would come up with a better religion (like one that says, "your species will be stuck on this rock for at least the next several thousand years - you'd best take care of it, lest thy seed be barren upon all the lands yadda yadda").

If the writers of Star Trek can figure out the idea of cultural contamination, surely the aliens would have thought of it, too.

[buckettgirl]

51. I agree with ya there...

yes, aliens would be much smarter than to give us this.... unless they watch and laugh and its all joke

[alittlelark]

83. Maybe we are their 'Reality TV'

[chicagiana]

97. Maybe the aliens are just fucking with our heads ...

... the way we perplex a cat with a laser.

;-)

[Philostopher]

69. Yeah, although to be fair ...

most of them actually believe that those who haven't heard the 'Good News' are as innocent as children; only those who receive and reject the 'Good News' will rot in hell, the rest will get a pass because they didn't have an opportunity to reject it.

Of course, it's the evangelical's mission to make sure every single human being hears about it -- that's why there are missionaries.

[chicagiana]

96. In their book ...

We are ALL mortal, therefore we are all sinners. Only Jesus is free of sin.

To get to heaven, you must accept Jesus. That's about the depth of the fuaxndamentalists. It doesn't matter how you misunderstand and defile his message as long as you profess a belief!!!

[slutticus]

8. Exactly.

God supposedly gave us all free will...yet if we choose to exercise that free will in a manner inconsistent with his wishes...we will be punished severely.

[chicagiana]

100. Ahh the paradox of free will ..

God gives us a mind to think. If we were as the Fauxndamentalists, we would still be staring at the cave wall and harboring deep superstitions over observation and reason.

Where thought leads us is the Devil's work according to the Fauxndamentalists. They still have their faces plastered against Socrates' cave. How would they know the difference.

I personally believe that got will smite the stupid/superstitious and save the enlightened!!! God will reward those who explore the mystery of it's works and punish those who dogmatically swallow happy story time tales.

At the very least I would suspect god would make it a LITTLE more obvious WHICH religion was the "right" one if SHE* truly wished us to choose "the right path".


* The notion of assigning gender to a diety is really stupid and foolish. It stems from assigning the gender role of authority to men. Therefore god must be a man since "he's" in charge. But all creatures are inherintly female unless provoked otherwise in the womb. Therefore, if mankind was made in the image of god, then god must be a woman!?!?!?!?

[bubbismith]

9. They conveniently ignore scriptures like this...

*** Ecclesiastes 9:5 ***
5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.

*** Ecclesiastes 9:10 ***
10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

Being dead is like it appears... you don't go to hell, just out of existence. (From dust you were and to dust you shall return).

So, indeed you are correct, the punishment of eternal hellfire does not fit the crime of ignoring God for a few years on earth.

[ventvon]

14. Really?

[bubbismith]

43. Yes, it's the first real thing I ever learned about the bible...

The dead are out of existence, "unconscious", and feel no pain.. no nothing actually. Death is the opposite of life according to the bible and not a transference to another state.

However there is a significant hope:

*** Psalm 37:11 ***
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

*** Psalm 37:29 ***
29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Living on earth is the hope for mankind, not going to heaven or (the non-existent) hell.

[email protected]

[troubleinwinter]

178. "but as for the dead, .... neither do they anymore have wages"

WAIT A MINUTE! If I die, I get my paycheck cut off??!!!! WTF?? Maybe God IS an asshole. Just doesn't sound fair to me at all. What about Unemployment benefits?

[PurityOfEssence]

10. If you're Dutch Reformed, even that might not help you

You can be the most pious, decent sincere believer in the whole crock, and if you're not on the list, AMF, you're a hellfire briquet. Conversely, you can be a thorough rotter, but if you're on the list, it's hugs and kisses from the big daddy FOREVER.

[texastoast]

11. It's not God. It's not Jesus.

It's not Mohammed. It's the fundie idiots who spew that their twisted view is the truth (which is complete crap IMO). Read it for yourself, and you will see that the literal interpretation is valid--not the "well, Jesus MEANT . . . ." Jesus' words and path to God/enlightenment are very similar to the Buddha's, the Great Spirit's, Mohammed's, etc. "Accepting Christ" means many things to many people.

It's about love, faith, and respect, three things that the fundies on all sides of the fences have replaced with fear which advances their own need for external control.

God is not cruel. The problem is, She/He/It gave us free will to create, kind of a dangerous thing for a species as primitive as we are.

[chicagiana]

102. Jesus is the second coming of Buddha ...

As far as I'm concerned!!!

I'm inclined to believe that the "god man" persona was superimposed on Jesus to pull in the Dionysiun sun worshippers, saints were brought in to stand for the old pagan gods. Put it all together and you get the Universal (Catholic) Church with the Emperor of Rome sitting at it's head.

[indigobusiness]

144. But, will he be as difficult to recognize this time?

And, perhaps, realize a similar fate?

Who knows if he hasn't come and gone a second time, already?

[BeTheChange]

164. Saint Issa

Some believe that. There is a perplexing story that a russian war correspondent said he stumbled upon in 1827 whie in India.

Supposedly a remote sect of Buddhist monks showed him a scroll and many experts of the time studied it and rejected it as they did with so much of the apochrypha. It basically boiled down to Jesus' lost years from the Bible, the time after he was 12 to early 30s.

Heaven forbid they tell the masses that Jesus receieved some schooling in Aruvedic healing :)

[indigobusiness]

173. Jesus was clearly influenced by Buddhist philosophy.

His years in Egypt before the lost years were interesting, as well.

Wish I knew more about the Saint Issa story. I hear it referred to from time to time. Fascinating.

edit- A quick search turned this up:

The Life of Saint Issa
BEST OF THE SONS OF MEN

4 They taught him to read and understand the Vedas, to cure by aid of prayer, to teach, to explain the holy scriptures to the people, and to drive out evil spirits from the bodies of men, restoring unto them their sanity.

5 He passed six years at Juggernaut, at Rajagriha, at Benares, and in the other holy cities. Everyone loved him, for Issa lived in peace with the Vaisyas and the Sudras, whom he instructed in the holy scriptures.


http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/jesus/issa.htm

Saint Issa & The Lost Years of Jesus

http://www.apollonius.net/issa.html

[BeTheChange]

177. A basic link

http://www.karma2grace.org/Articles/lostyearsJesus.htm

It is a really fascinating story.

Also, wanted to post this link to other Apochrypha. Reading everything has challenged me to understand more.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/?adword
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/

[indigobusiness]

179. The Gospel of Thomas and the Nag Hammadi texts

have been of particular interest to me.

http//www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

[catmandu57]

12. According to my fundie brother

Just by having lived without knowledge of the existance of Jesus has bought eternal damnation for millions of souls.

[indigobusiness]

56. Fundies forget that reincarnation was fundamental to Christianity

until Constantine had it excised from the Bible, along with other troublesome ingredients.

[chicagiana]

103. Those pesky Gnostics !!!

... and their blasphemic gospels !!!!

Yeah, Christianity definitely had a purge. And all the unorthodox voices were wiped as clean from history as possible.

I'm quite inclined to believe that Mary Magdeline's book is 100% kosher and without Rome's influence, it's probably more accurate than the other 4 gospels!!!!

[indigobusiness]

108. Imagine the course of Christianity, if Constantine chose a different wife?

One that wasn't quite so meddlesome...

[chicagiana]

125. There would be no christianity !!!!

Had Constantine not codified Christianity, it would have languished in it's pristine form!!!

We would all be worshiping a "god man" still. We'd simply say "Dionysus saves" instead of "Jesus Saves". And we'd still go to worship the Sun disc on Sunday !!!! ;-)

[indigobusiness]

127. Hardly...

It would merely not have been stripped of authenticity.

[SemperEadem]

78. one has to remember that the 'knowledge' a fundamental-case has

is only as good as the integrity of the preacher who taught it to them.

[Quill Pen]

182. Then your fundie brother had better update his passport...

...'cuz it looks like he got some travelin' to do.

Last night, I caught part of the Primetime special on which Prince Harry was visiting AIDS-ravaged villages and orphanages in Africa. The young prince stumbled across places so remote that his name and origins meant absolutely nothing to the villagers. (What? They don't get the E! Channel?!)

It's a good bet that if there are peoples in the world unaware of what England is and who's in its royal family, there are peoples unaware of Jesus Christ's existence, and likely to stay that way, for better or for worse.

I suppose it depends on whether someone's an Old Testament Christian or a New Testament Christian. In the Old Testament, God is dispassionate and pharaonic. In the New Testament, God is paternal and caring. I happen to be more of the latter type of Christian, so I'm not expecting my Father in Heaven to flay or immolate anyone who isn't really asking for it. Hope I'm right.

[ventvon]

13. Who says it's "unprovable"?

It's proven on a "personal" level.

You can't go to a university and learn anything beyond doctrine. You can't just go to a website and "get it."

I'd say that most Christians who have given their lives to Jesus and stopped doing drugs as a result of it, stopped smoking almost instantaneously (every person is different), lost the taste for alcoholism, straightened up and are now happily married heterosexuals when they used to be homosexual, etc, have had some things "PROVEN" to them.

Nothing in a "real relationship" with God through Jesus Christ is going to be proven to you from a distance when you are just trying to examine something based on your limited perception.

[amber dog democrat]

16. I just prefer to let the mystery be

and respect the rights of others to believe as they wish.

[ventvon]

18. Really?

That's how most people feel about Diebold.

[amber dog democrat]

21. who is most people ?

and I know diebold exists.

Im very respectful and careful regarding the beliefs of others. I tend to look at the world's religions as something akin to a huge buffet and take a little from all of them - but only the parts I want. Kind of like custom configuration.

Just because I am not religious does not mean I am right.

[ventvon]

27. What??

I'm saying that "most people in this country" don't care about recounts, etc. They just rather let the numbers be just like he/she'd rather let the "mystery be."

[amber dog democrat]

40. True

Most would not care. There are times I feel like I am living in the Roman Empire say around 250 AD.

[indigobusiness]

57. Would you feel that way as Torquemada tortured your loved ones

in the name of God?

[The Night Owl]

19. Let me put it another way...

If you proclaim that you believe that your cat can talk to you telepathically, I am to consider that belief as proof that your cat can talk telepathically?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

[ventvon]

20. Edit that post, and then I can respond to it

You are still unclear

I also repeat, "Nothing in a "real relationship" with God through Jesus Christ is going to be proven to you from a distance when you are just trying to examine something based on your limited perception."

[The Night Owl]

23. I understand what you are saying...

All I am saying is that given the fact that there is no hard proof of God's existance, God should know better than to damn people for eternity for doubting his existance.

[buckettgirl]

26. I'm not christian now, but...

When I was young and had to go to religion class, I learned that God loved everyone and that everyone could be forgiven by asking for forgiveness, no matter what they did.
When did that change?

[ventvon]

30. It didn't.

That's what is done when you accept Jesus as your savior.

You ask for forgiveness and ask him to save you from your sins.

[buckettgirl]

39. I never learned that jesus had to be your savior...

but its a moot point for me. I'll grant that Jesus, the man, existed and did good deeds; but I don't believe he existed as christianity tells it.
I sure disappointed my parents when I told them that I couldn't be catholic or christian because there were too many hypocrisies and that I couldn't accept the bible because the supposed word of God was written and interpreted by man. Man makes many mistakes.

[leesa]

44. And if you don't accept His boy, you die. What junk.

If God is the loving Father he is described as being, he would be the best parent ever. Why would a good parent demand such a thing of his creation? Why would he hate his creations so much that he would damn them for all eternity for not worshipping him or saying the right words, etc.

It is such a nasty God that would have this degree of bad parenting.

But you belong to the select club, right?

[ventvon]

52. He didn't demand it.

Jesus volunteered.

Sin separated man from God (Adam's sin).

Jesus volunteered to shed his blood as a bridge for man to find his way back to God. He was faithful. Accepting him is a sign of your faithfulness.

Jesus said, "No man taketh my life, I lay it down. And if I lay it down, I will pick it back up again."

If you choose not to, and you have the choice, every choice has responsibilities. But most "born-again Christians" don't do it just because they don't want to go to Hell, they become better people as a result of it, they drop terrible habits, they live longer, and they "love" Jesus Christ as a result of them no longer being on drugs and things.

We aren't talking about you and your child, if you have one. We aren't talking about "people."

You can't apply the same standards to them that you apply to typical relationships between people.

Jesus was around before he came to the earth. He wasn't forced to do anything.

Gone for the day.

[Bill McBlueState]

175. Ha ha ha!!!!

You're not just gone for the day, you're gone for good!

So long, freeper!

Username: ventvon

[chicagiana]

109. The Bible has a SERIOUS continuity problem ...

...

The bible goes through a long grueling exposition on Jesus' lineage and how Jesus is heir to David via Joseph's bloodline. But, according to the SAME work, Jesus is NOT fathered by Joseph, he is conceived by the holy ghost.

So which is it. Is Jesus heir to David or is he Son of God????

This contradiction belies tampering and the melding of two disparate traditions.

[indigobusiness]

147. The virgin birth was a common theme of the era,

from Egyptian kings to Sumerian and Assyrian god/men. It is clearly part of a ubiquitous mythos. Which, by no means, sells anything short.

[BeTheChange]

166. The tribulation

Everyone always says that.. if God is so great why did he give us free will to deny him? Why doesnt he just come down for a weekly local access show? How could he damn someone that had never heard his word?

The Bible says that people refuse the signs. They pick their own ego, they think they have it all figured out and all the rest is smoke and mirrors.

I think that God makes it pretty obvious to those that choose to see it before damning them to hell forever. Do you think that if the Dali Lama saw some great being show a sign in the sky to signal the rapture.. if he saw the plagues, if he saw the natural disasters.. do you really think the man would be like, screw God.. he doesnt exist? No! He would open his heart and accept it.

I think everyone gets that chance somehow. I dont have all the logistics worked out.

In John 1 it says:
In the beginning, the Word already existed. He was with God and he was God. He was in the beginning of God. Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone. The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.

....
John 1:14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father.

Jesus was the symbol of a man that we could all understand. He was the symbol of a man that the red staters could understand. Maybe Buddah was the symbol that those in origination's close proximity could best relate to. Nobody's getting sent to hell for using the wrong words.

[indigobusiness]

180. Your brand of candor is refreshing. Welcome to DU.

Honestly and guilelessly searching goes a long way down the road to finding.

I reckon darn few of us have it figured out completely.

[BeTheChange]

181. Thanks..

Did you see Hunter's latest page 2 column?

He opens with

"The Summer is over
the harvest is in,
and we are not saved."
-- Jeremiah 8:20

[indigobusiness]

183. Yep, I saw it.

You can bet the end is near when the good doctor starts quoting scripture.

LOL

[ventvon]

28. What?

You want his height? His weight?

You want to "see" him?

I'd say that most "real things" with hard evidence of their existence are lies.

[The Night Owl]

31. What I want is to not be damned eternally for not believing...

What I want is to not be damned eternally for not believing in that which is unproven.

[ventvon]

38. So, most things are proven???

If you are looking for "proven" you can't win in this world or the next.

[datasuspect]

61. well

2 + 2 = 4. that has been proven.

i have given my assent to that equation and believe it is true. i can verify it with the evidence of my senses.

proceed on the basis of the aforementioned thought and apply it to the phenomenal world.

[chicagiana]

110. Well, that isn't "proven" ...

2 + 2 = 4 is DEFINED not proven.

[aePrime]

138. Actually, it can be proven

A link to a 122-step proof is on this page:

http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/mmset.html#trivia

Proving such things is long and tedious, however.

I'd also like to remind everybody that you can not prove things in science, even though asking for scientific "proof" is a common misuse of the language. Mathematics is the only field in which you can prove something.

Edited to add: I'm sure that you were thinking that everything in math is based on axioms at the lowest level, which cannot be proven.

[phylny]

98. Perhaps I'm confused.

I don't even know why this worrisome to anyone. I'm being respectful when I say that other people don't have to change their beliefs for you to believe in what you want, nor (as I know you know) should you need to bend to the beliefs of others. If people believe this, and you don't, then you can't possibly think it affects you.

In other words, if you don't think you need to have a relationship with Jesus and you don't think that you need to accept Jesus as your Savior to be saved from being "damned eternally," then don't think it and don't sweat it.

Many people who believe in an afterlife think that if they live a good life, they'll go to some version of heaven after death. Either they're right or they're not. Many others believe that you need to be saved in Christ to go to heaven. Either they're right or they're not.

If you have different beliefs, then that's your right and your personal decision. People saying that Jesus is the way to heaven will have no affect on you if it's not true.

One or the other, or both, or neither will be right.

If anyone is worried about it (and I'm not saying you are) then they're obviously not secure in their own beliefs.

[BeTheChange]

167. What would prove God's existence for you?

Just out of curiousity. I, personally, think that God doesnt just pull a sneak attack on you before sending you to Hell without supper.

But what would it take for you?

[chicagiana]

105. If god wanted me to believe in her ...

... she'd be a little more explicit than a schoolgirl who taunts a boy because she likes him.

[indigobusiness]

134. Anyone that tries to drag gender into this

has little to offer.

[chicagiana]

148. Then don't refer to god as "he" ...

You must then refer to god as IT. And that is fine in my book since assigning gender to a diety is absoluetly stupid in my book.

However, all creatures are inherently female unless changed in uterus. If go made mankind in it's image, than I'd speculate god is female!!!!

[indigobusiness]

152. That is absurd, and shallow in the extreme.

Man is short for mankind: Male AND female. Any further distinction is useful for clarification of ideas, not for creation of non-issues.

Any reference to God as 'He' is traditionally based, and not an issue of petty gender politics. It is in no way a slight of the feminine gender.

[chicagiana]

156. Yeah, thats why god is always portrayed as a man ...

Except in Kevin Smith movies ;-)

[datasuspect]

60. so

you're saying that "real relationship" with God through Jesus Christ is merely subjective and basically an expression of emotion/psychological state?

i can buy that.

however that doesn't make it real, as in a possible candidate for knowledge or something that can admit of proof. real to you, not real to anybody else.

[hatrack]

81. Sorry, the Fallacy of Special Pleading cuts no ice

"You just don't understand, since you're not of the Elect/haven't been saved/haven't given your life to Christ, etc. etc."

In other words, since you are not party to my subjective spiritual experience, you must accept it as real, since you cannot prove that it is not.

Color me unimpressed with your argument.

[theHandpuppet]

33. Does conversion also make one an ignorant bigot?

And I quote:

I'd say that most Christians who have given their lives to Jesus and stopped doing drugs as a result of it, stopped smoking almost instantaneously (every person is different), lost the taste for alcoholism, straightened up and are now happily married heterosexuals when they used to be homosexual, etc, have had some things "PROVEN" to them.

[leesa]

42. Oh brother! Well, that convinves me!

[charlie]

67. Whaaaat?

Happily married heterosexuals when they used to be homosexual? You buy that bunk?

The recidivism rate for that "cure" is so high that given enough time, I'll bet it's 100%.

[jukes]

73. so

giving up harmful addictions equates in your mind w/ giving up a loving relationship w/ another person, just because that person is of the same gender as yourself?

you won't be trolling here long, methinks.

[Maraya1969]

77. RE: Who says it is unprovable?

The same things happen for Buddhists and people in AA and people studying "The course in Miracles" and probably Muslims and all religions.

That's the whole concept for AA and the other 12 step programs. You are supposed to depend on a Higher Power but that power does not have to be Jesus.

And AA, with its non-religious but spiritual precepts has saved millions of people from death and destruction from Alcoholism.

I personally believe that Jesus was a great teacher. He specifically said in the Christian bible NOT to worship him. When he said, "Follow Me" I think he meant Follow my ways to happiness and peace - i.e. love yourself and one another and practice forgiveness - the same things that Buddhism teaches. There are people who believe that Jesus learned Buddhism during his twenties when there was not accounting for his wear abouts in the Christian Bible.

[Maraya1969]

82. RE again - who says it's unprovable?

Why would Jesus want people to "convert" to heterosexuality when they are homosexual? Your post sounds as if you think there is something wrong with being gay. Maybe your interpretation of YOUR Bible tells you that but that is......Your interpretation of YOUR Bible.

There are plenty of other interpretations and plenty of other bibles. You don't have a corner on what is right and wrong.

[Goldmund]

119. So, it can make you quit both smokin' and faggin'??

Wicked.

[elemnopee]

170. The Nazis had something proven to them too

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. For alleged Biblical literalists, they're not following the Bible

They need to read Romans 2:12-16, which deals with the question of "righteous pagans," people who follow "the law that is in their hearts."

[ventvon]

17. Are you oblivious in your awareness of God?

Are most people?

I'd say that most people are "aware."

[CarbonDate]

165. We may be aware....

...but we do not necessarily perceive Her as you do.

[datasuspect]

62. they're not following this one either:

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."

god jr. said it himself

[Maraya1969]

85. Praying in the synagogue

Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."



Interesting that Matthew told the Jews how to pray when, according to the fundies, the Jews are going to Hell anyway. Apparently Matthew didn't believe that.

[datasuspect]

139. those were the words of god jr.

[democratreformed]

22. Yep! That's it in a nutshell. BTW,

that's the same God who would damn souls for eternity for saying "shit" or "damn" and not asking forgiveness for it.

[theHandpuppet]

24. The "Love Me Or Else" religion

Doesn't work in human relationships, nor should it work in any relationships one has to a higher power. If a guy told his Gf/wife to love him or he'd kill her, we'd call that abuse. Threats and fear do not make for a loving relationship for God nor man.

[choicevoice]

25. At this point even I am hoping for the End Times.........

The day they will all go "poof" up to Jesus and we can have out country back.

[Lindsey]

29. The Christians believe that you could have been a mass

murderer and/or seriel killer, etc., but if you ask for forgiveness and "accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior" on your f'ing death bed, you get to go to heaven and have a wonderful eternal life. However, on the other hand, if your Gandhi, (who I believe was Hindu) and you do wonderful things throughout your ENTIRE life, you DON'T go to Heaven because you didn't accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. That's who's running the country folks - I shit you not....:-(

[ventvon]

47. In Christianity, works before you repent don't matter, repentance does.

That's why Saul of Tarsus could become Paul after he executed followers of Jesus.

That's why the "Son of Sam" can be forgiven, although he commited the crimes and shouldn't be released from prison based on the laws of this country.

However, if you don't "repent," then nothing that you do outweighs that. It may sound "tough", but it's not.

Consider Islam. They live by the "scales." They have to have more "good" acts outweigh "bad" acts in order to make it to "heaven" according to their beliefs, but they never know, so the only way that they can "be sure within their own minds" is to sacrifice their lives for allah in battle. That's why they don't mind dying over there in Israel or Iraq.

Jesus allowed himself to be killed for everyone.

Which would you rather do? Repent, which is not difficult to do, or go blow yourself up?

Some will say neither, I'm sure.

[jukes]

76. i won't live my life

on my knees sucking up to a myth.

you're deluding yourself, but you aren't fooling anyone here.

there are many christians that properly populate this board, you are *not* 1 of them.

this is a board for liberals, not holyrollers. not dominionists.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

79. And that reasoning...

is why I left the Catholic church back in the day.

I simply cannot be arrogant enough to say my religion is the only TRUE way to heaven, and any "god" who would say so is a small, arrogant "god" that I frankly wouldn't want to spend much time with anyhoo.

Besides, if my pets and gay pals aren't there, that wouldn't be "heaven" for me.

[ventvon]

34. Actually it doesn't happen like that

They go poof.

Then all "Hell" breaks loose on the earth. It's not broken loose yet because God's people are still here.

Once they leave, destruction upon destruction happens.

Then Jesus comes back again after a few years with an army of angels and defeats the armies of the Anti-Christ who will be dominating the global scene and then it gets even more complicated.

[buckettgirl]

41. who makes you the leading authority anyway? n/t

[BeTheChange]

45. If we're talking about what Christians believe..

Then what he said would be it in a nutshell.

[leesa]

49. And how's Santa Claus doing these days?

[amber dog democrat]

64. Not bad, but with the global warming and all

the North pole aint what it used to be.

Have you been good this year ? :)

[indigobusiness]

68. I don't care if the whole world freezes,

as long as I've got my
Cheddar Cheesus


http://www.poizenideas.com/cheesus/links.html


Kinky Friedman sings 'They Ain't Makin' Jews Like Jesus Anymore"

http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?mediaURL=/me/20040609_me_kinkyjews&mediaType=RM

[indigobusiness]

70. Seperating the message, and Christ Conciousness from Christ as Idol...

makes all the difference. And, is mostly lost on bible-thumpers.

[Maraya1969]

90. Let me guess

You've read the "Left Behind" series.

That guy made millions on a Grims Fairy Tale.

And then you say the fundies don't SCARE people into their religion!



You scared me once years ago - and then I realized you are all a bunch of wing nuts.

[datasuspect]

63. i got dibs

on this one pastor's $50,000 custom suburban

[Maraya1969]

87. That's funny! LOL

[indigobusiness]

160. At this point , I'm just hoping for High Times...

though, I understand they've gone political at the mag.

[BeTheChange]

36. This one brings me out of the woodwork...

I read the forums here at DU daily. They are a little piece of sanity in alot of ways. But as a whole, I cant relate to the sentiments of alot of democrats on religion.

Anything can be done the wrong way. Religious zealots can hole themselves up in a complex in Waco. Heaven's gate occultists can put their nikes on and toast their koolaid hoping to catch a ride on the Haley Bop.

Jimmy Swaggart can cheat with as many New Orlean's prostitutes that capture his fancy as he desires. I think to some christian's the key to the acceptance of Jesus being a nessecity to go to heaven rests on one word, hubris.

As a human race, we have alot of hubris.. but my take on the message of the Bible is that what we really must accept is not so much Jesus, but that we are human. That we are fallible. That we didnt just do this all on our own or by some random chance.

Some people live their life using the Bible to build their philosophy. They dont hate gay people, athough they prefer the idea of civil unions to gay marriage. They dont believe that the word is literal. They caught the part in the Bible that said it was LIVING.

Everyone focuses alot of the old testament. Right now, it feels like this adminstration doesnt even know about the New Testament. They are sacrificing their lambs and oxen and setting the stage for an epic good verses evil battle.

When it all comes down to it, does the Dali Lama go to hell? I dont think so. Maybe he gets to the gate and God looks into his soul and waves him on with a big orange baton. Maybe he has to answer some epic question or live 10 more lives until he gets it right. I dont know.

I do believe that even just the thought that Jesus died for my sins.. that as long as I lay down my pride and ego and acknowledge that I cant bear the weight of the world all alone.. is something that speaks to me through the Bible, when I look at a tree, when I see a thunderstorm, when I look into the clear star laden skies in the mountains of California...Or, when I listen to Bob Dylan :)

"Last Thoughts on Woody Guthrie."

When your head gets twisted and your mind grows numb
When you think you're too old, too young, too smart or too dumb
When you're laggin' behind an' losin' your pace
In the slow-motion crawl or life's busy race
No matter whatcha doin' if you start givin' up
If the wine don't come to the top of your cup
If the wind got you sideways it's one hand holdin' on
And the other starts slippin' and the feelin' is gone
And your train engine fire needs a new spark to catch it
And the wood's easy findin' but you're lazy to fetch it
And your sidewalk starts curlin' and the street gets too long
And you start walkin' backwards though you know that it's wrong
And lonesome comes up as down goes the day
And tomorrow's mornin' seems so far away
And you feel the reins from your pony are slippin'
And your rope is a-slidin' 'cause your hands are a-drippin'
And your sun-decked desert and evergreen valleys
Turn to broken down slums and trash-can alleys
And your sky cries water and your drain pipe's a-pourin'
And the lightnin's a-flashin' and the thunder's a-crashin'
The windows are rattlin' and breakin' and the roof tops are shakin'
And your whole world's a-slammin' and bangin'
And your minutes of sun turn to hours of storm
An' to yourself you sometimes say
"I never knew it was gonna be this way
Why didn't they tell me the day I was born?"

And you start gettin' chills and you're jumpin' from sweat
And you're lookin' for somethin' you ain't quite found yet
And you're knee-deep in dark water with your hands in the air
And the whole world's watchin' with a window peek stare
And your good gal leaves and she's long gone a-flyin'
And your heart feels sick like fish when they're fryin'
And your jackhammer falls from your hands to your feet
But you need it badly an' it lays on the street
And your bell's bangin' loudly but you can't hear its beat
And you think your ears mighta been hurt
Your eyes've turned filthy from the sight-blindin' dirt
And you figured you failed in yesterday's rush
When you were faked out an' fooled while facin' a four flush
And all the time you were holdin' three queens
It's makin you mad, it's makin' you mean
Like in the middle of Life magazine
Bouncin' around a pinball machine
And there's something on your mind that you wanna be sayin'
That somebody someplace oughta be hearin'
But it's trapped on your tongue, sealed in your head
And it bothers you badly when your layin' in bed
And no matter how you try you just can't say it
And you're scared to your soul you just might forget it
And your eyes get swimmy from the tears in your head
An' your pillows of feathers turn to blankets of lead
And the lion's mouth opens and you're starin' at his teeth
And his jaws start closin' with you underneath
And you're flat on your belly with your hands tied behind
And you wish you'd never taken that last detour sign
You say to yourself just what am I doin'
On this road I'm walkin', on this trail I'm turnin'
On this curve I'm hangin'
On this pathway I'm strollin', this space I'm taking
And this air I'm inhaling?
Am I mixed up too much, am I mixed up too hard
Why am I walking, where am I running
What am I saying, what am I knowing
On this guitar I'm playing, on this banjo I'm frailing
On this mandolin I'm strumming, in the song I'm singing,
In the tune I'm humming, in the words that I'm thinking
In the words I'm writing
In this ocean of hours I'm all the time drinking
Who am I helping, what am I breaking
What am I giving, what am I taking?
But you try with your whole soul best
Never to think these thoughts and never to let
Them kind of thoughts gain ground
Or make your heart pound
But then again you know when they're around
Just waiting for a chance to slip and drop down
'Cause sometimes you hear 'em when the night time come creeping
And you fear they might catch you sleeping
And you jump from your bed, from the last chapter of dreamin'
And you can't remember for the best of your thinkin'
If that was you in the dream that was screaming
And you know that's somethin' special you're needin'
And you know there's no drug that'll do for the healing
And no liquor in the land to stop your brain from bleeding

You need somethin' special
You need somethin' special, all right
You need a fast flyin' train on a tornado track
To shoot you someplace and shoot you back
You need a cyclone wind on a stream engine howler
That's been banging and booming and blowing forever
That knows your troubles a hundred times over
You need a Greyhound bus that don't bar no race
That won't laugh at your looks
Your voice or your face
And by any number of bets in the book
Will be rolling long after the bubblegum craze
You need something to open up a new door
To show you something you seen before
But overlooked a hundred times or more
You need something to open your eyes
You need something to make it known
That it's you and no one else that owns
That spot that you're standing, that space that you're sitting
That the world ain't got you beat
That it ain't got you licked
It can't get you crazy no matter how many times you might get kicked
You need something special, all right
You need something special to give you hope
But hope's just a word
That maybe you said, maybe you heard
On some windy corner 'round a wide-angled curve

But that's what you need man, and you need it bad
And your trouble is you know it too good
'Cause you look an' you start gettin' the chills
'Cause you can't find it on a dollar bill
And it ain't on Macy's window sill
And it ain't on no rich kid's road map
And it ain't in no fat kid's fraternity house
And it ain't made in no Hollywood wheat germ
And it ain't on that dim-lit stage
With that half-wit comedian on it
Rantin' and ravin' and takin' your money
And you thinks it's funny
No, you can't find it neither in no night club, no yacht club
And it ain't in the seats of a supper club
And sure as hell you're bound to tell
No matter how hard you rub
You just ain't a-gonna find it on your ticket stub
No, it ain't in the rumors people're tellin' you
And it ain't in the pimple-lotion people are sellin' you
And it ain't in a cardboard-box house
Or down any movie star's blouse
And you can't find it on the golf course
And Uncle Remus can't tell you and neither can Santa Claus
And it ain't in the cream puff hairdo or cotton candy clothes
Ain't in the dime store dummies an' bubblegum goons
And it ain't in the marshmallow noises of the chocolate cake voices
That come knocking and tapping in Christmas wrapping
Sayin' ain't I pretty and ain't I cute, look at my skin,
Look at my skin shine, look at my skin glow,
Look at my skin laugh, look at my skin cry,
When you can't even sense if they got any insides
These people so pretty in their ribbons and bows
No, you'll not now or no other day
Find it on the doorsteps made of paper maché
And inside of the people made of molasses
That every other day buy a new pair of sunglasses
And it ain't in the fifty-star generals and flipped-out phonies
Who'd turn you in for a tenth of a penny
Who breathe and burp and bend and crack
And before you can count from one to ten
Do it all over again but this time behind your back, my friend,
The ones that wheel and deal and whirl and twirl
And play games with each other in their sand-box world
And you can't find it either in the no-talent fools
That run around gallant
And make all the rules for the ones that got talent
And it ain't in the ones that ain't got any talent but think they do
And think they're fooling you
The ones that jump on the wagon
Just for a while 'cause they know it's in style
To get their kicks, get out of it quick
And make all kinds of rnoney and chicks
And you yell to yourself and you throw down your hat
Saying, "Christ, do I gotta be like that?
Ain't there no one here that knows where I'm at
Ain't there no one here that knows how I feel
Good God Almighty, that stuff ain't real":

No, but that ain't your game, it ain't your race
You can't hear your name, you can't see your face
You gotta look some other place
And where do you look for this hope that you're seekin'
Where do you look for this lamp that's a-burnin'
Where do you look for this oil well gushin'
Where do you look for this candle that's glowin'
Where do you look for this hope that you know is there
And out there somewhere
And your feet can only walk down two kinds of roads
Your eyes can only look through two kinds of windows
Your nose can only smell two kinds of hallways
You can touch and twist
And turn two kinds of doorknobs
You can either go to the church of your choice
Or you go to Brooklyn State Hospital

You find God in the church of your choice
You find Woody Guthrie in Brooklyn State Hospital
And though it's only my opinion
I may be right or wrong
You'll find them both
In Grand Canyon
Sundown

[RUDUing2]

37. IMO these are *paulians* not *christians*..

[SemperEadem]

80. very well said!!!

I cannot square myself with Paul or anything he thought or said being in line with God. he was the most divisive extremist of the lot... and that's why the fundementals love him so much--he gives their perpetual victimization the grist needed to work.

[drbtg1]

89. "I love Jesus! Can't stand Paul, though."

This is the single most important message on religion Democrats need to get through the mass media in the next few years!

(I'd capitialize that line, but I'm sure DU'ers get the point.)

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/paulvsall.html

[Selwynn]

48. Yes, according to "fundamentalists." None of the rest of us get it either

Wish I could help ya. :)

You seem to grasp the difference between fundamentalists and other Christan believers however, since you specifically refer to fundamentalists in your headline. Obviously the rest of the Christian community believes differently.

Sel

[ProdigalJunkMail]

84. I would like to know how you interpret

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

I am not trying to bash, but I would really like to know how you correlate your beliefs with this statement...

Thanks!
TheProdigal

[Selwynn]

91. Hi - I didn't see this response, can you clarify:

What the context is in which you are asking me this?

Are you thinking specifically in terms of this discussion about being condemned to hell, or are you talking about more the issue amoung some christian interpretations that believes a creedal confession of christian dogma is the only thing that makes you "right" with God?

Then I will definately try to answer as best I can.
Thanks,
Sel

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. i may have misread your previous post

but it seems that you are stating that belief in Jesus as God's Christ is not required for salvation. This belief would seem to be at odds with what Jesus said in the aforementioned passage. I am curious if that is indeed your belief and if it is, why would you discard THIS passage of scripture whilst accepting others. If I have misinterpreted you meaning, please forgive me. I am just always curious to see what people believe, what they THINK they believe and why.

Thank you!
TheProdigal

[Selwynn]

117. Phew - ok, but I'm at work now.

No way I can do that here (in the time I have).

Expect something later tonight.
Cheers,
Sel

[ProdigalJunkMail]

120. i wouldn't expect a magnum opus from the office

safe journeys home!

theProdigal

[Selwynn]

151. Late Response

hfojvt already made on excellent point, which I will quote again here:

"I would interpret that to mean "no one gets to heaven except by following my teachings". I find, as C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Abolition of Man" that most of the worlds moral traditions have a common thread, including the teachings of Jesus, which he himself seemed to imply came from Jewish scripture. Thus, there are many ways to serve God, and follow Jesus's teachings."

I will then add that almost anytime someone says something like "well how to your reconcile that belief with this single scripture" my response can be almost predictable. Firstly, I am not a biblical literalist. I believe the Bible is a book. That book is a long history of the one group of peoples feeble, stuttering, stumbling attempts to understand and express the nature of their relationship to God and their understanding of God. The contrast between the harshness of the Old Testament God Depiction and the New Testament God of love can be largely understood in terms of a people's slow but progressive evolution of their understanding of their relationship to God.

The ultimate theme of this progressive understanding of the "true" nature of God culminates in the understanding that God is love. That single statement, to me represents the ultimate truth of the bible, and the ultimate end of the spiritually progressive journey of the bible. That truth about love is the lens by which I interpret biblical texts. The second lens for me is that I place the narrative accounts of Jesus's ministry, particularly the words ascribed to him above the writings of other men in the Bible. If there is every a point of contradiction, and I cannot understand how to interpret in such a way as to resolve the conflict, I embrace the words of Jesus, not the words of another writer.

In the scripture that says "I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes to the father except by me." There are several things to consider. First, these words are not the "words of Jesus." They are the words attributed to Jesus by a Jewish writer, some 50-80 years after Jesus' death. That does not mean they are not accurate, appropriate, or important to consider. But we always need to mention that, lest we get too comfortable in fundamentalist literalism.

Second, all scripture requires interpretation. The very fact that these ancient texts were written centuries ago, in completely different languages, then translated and retranslated and retranslated over and over again means that when we read the simply English, we are already ready a major interpretation of what was originally written. Then when we think in our minds, "what does this really mean" we are interpreting again as we do that. Our interpretations will be based on certain criteria including, our biases and predispositions, our social and cultural context, our own personality, our level of capacity for biblical scholarship, etc. It will also be based on what we see as the appropriate lens for interpretation. I believe that appropriate lens to be the lens of love.

So I don't look at any biblical text and see a literal truth. I see metaphor, imagery, symbolism and wisdom which can and should point us to literal truths in our lives. Some people feel that without literalism, the Bible has no meaning. When I was 20, I read a book by Herman Hesse that impacted me more than almost any book I had read up to that point. There were truths in the book that resonated with me so profoundly that I believe it changed me to some degree. The book was fiction, its characters were made up, created specifically as a literary vehicle to convey the philosophy and meaning of the author. That book is no less valuable because it is fiction. That fiction points beyond itself to ultimate truths - in that way it stands as a symbol.

Much of biblical texts stands as symbol. And because of the very nature of God and the gap between finite and infinite, much of biblical texts stands as metaphor and analogy. So much of scripture can be understood not as saying "this is who God is" but rather, "this is what God is like." Is God literally a Father, a Shepherd, a gentle flowing river? No. But each one of those expressions captures some real element of what it feels like to know God.

One question and inevitably comes from a biblical literalist is this: how do you know what's really true and right if you selectively pick and choose which scriptures you accept and which scriptures you deny. Scripture always conveys truth, but when you understand it as fundamentally human, you become able to see certain aspects of one authors' particular point of view as insufficiently or incorrectly capturing the realities of God that later writers begin to understand. That doesn't make it a "falsehood" that somehow is a mistake to be in the text. I'm glad these stories of stumbling, stuttering human beings just trying to figure things out are there. But it does not mean I take everything writing in the Bible at face value or with the same weight. So, how do I determine who to interpret?

First I establish what I believe to be the appropriate core lens for interpretation of scripture, and that is the lens that of love coupled with the words of Jesus in the gospel. Second I recognized that the human authors were capable of writing four different kinds of things in the bible texts:

1. Texts which are theologically appropriate and historically credible
2. Texts which are theologically appropriate but historically incredible
3. Texts which are theologically inappropriate but historically credible
4. Text which are theologically inappropriate and historically incredible

I understand historical accuracy and inaccuracy by studying history. I understand theological appropriateness and inappropriateness by looking at scripture through the lens of love and the teachings of Jesus. I agree with the poster I quoted, and say that it seems to me to be theologically appropriate and historically credible to suggest that the meaning of the scripture you quoted is that Jesus, as the Christ, was a messenger and witness of right spiritual teachings, and that no man or woman can truly enter into right spiritual fellowship with the divine and ignore or reject those truths to which Jesus bore witness. Now, other messengers have borne witness to these truths in other places and at other times. Thus there are many ways to "come to the father" and honor the teachings or Jesus without ever saying that name. Karl Rahner referred to this reality when he (somewhat offensively I suppose, but appropriate for the audience he was addressing) referred to "anonymous Christians."

Hope that helps. I shall now go have breakfast.
Sel

[BeTheChange]

174. That was so well put..

I often am unable to find the words to convey my philosophy on the Bible when people pinpoint specific passages..

Did Judas fall head long and split his guts open.. or did he bake in the sun..

Yadda yadda.

You put it perfectly.

[Maraya1969]

99. RE: I would like to know how you interpret

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Well, remember the Christian bible has been translated may times and was first written in Arabaic.

But my response is, Jesus taught love, acceptance, compassion, fogginess and all the things that are necessary to live a happy and peaceful life. And he is saying to follow his ways to get to "The Father" or God. But he does not say that God is in Heaven. He is speaking about the God within all of us.

He said "I am the way" He did not say "I am the ONE" He was speaking to a group of people and trying to help them attain peace of mind. He doesn't mention anything about where you go when you die in that statement. He doesn't talk about Hell. If God, or "The Father" is within all of us, which is what I believe, than that statement makes perfect sense. But it certainly does not mean anyone is going to Hell after they die. He is trying to get them out of the Hell that they are living in on the earth.

I just read that there is an estimated 10 BILLION different types of insects on this earth. Do you really think a God that created 10 BILLION different types of insects in this world ALONE, (and I'm not including all the creatures that are probably living in this incomprehensible universe) would subject a person to an eternity in Hell for not believing in a certain theological doctrine?

Your God is TOO small.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

104. aside from attacking my God

your ability to interpret 1st century spoken Aramaic is astounding. Why is your interpretation any more valid than the millions upon millions of Christians who believe that in this statement Jesus is claiming that only through relationship with him can you have access to his Father in heaven (and yes, in other places Jesus clearly places God the Father in Heaven). And Jesus did say that he was the one later in that very passage by saing no one comes to the Father except through me...sounds pretty exclusive to me...

And no, here Jesus does not mention hell; on that you are correct. But he does mention hell in other places in the scripture...maybe he was saving hell for some of the insects.

theProdigal

[Maraya1969]

111. RE: asside from attacking my God

your ability to interpret 1st century spoken Aramaic is astounding. Why is your interpretation any more valid than the millions upon millions of Christians who believe that in this statement Jesus is claiming that only through relationship with him can you have access to his Father in heaven (and yes, in other places Jesus clearly places God the Father in Heaven). And Jesus did say that he was the one later in that very passage by saing no one comes to the Father except through me...sounds pretty exclusive to me..."


First off I did not interpret Arabaic. I told you my personal interpretation of that verse. However, I think it is important to realize that concepts are lost in translation.

Tell me why YOUR interpretation is more valid than mine? (Besides the number thing - millions of Christians believed that slavery, rape and poligamy were the right thing to do at various times in history.)

Besides, I think we have the same God. I should say that your belief in God is WAY to small and you degridate God by ascribing you own human failings onto him/her.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. i think we probably do have the same god and are having

semantics issues. One problem I have with your statements is that you seem to believe that the people who interpreted the Aramaic are losing too much in the translation. You can go back and read the original Aramaic and in some case Greek and see that, for the most part, that statement is dead on the money.

And for another, I do believe that to live eternally in the presence of God faith in Christ is the prerequisite...that is my belief through what the scriptures say to me. I believe however that Hell is nothing more than a separation from God for eternity. You get a choice...be with or without God for eternity...

I do not degrade God by my beliefs. He is not small by any definition of the word. He is, for lack of a better term, infinite. But choosing to believe in Him and His Son is what gets you into His presence...without that simple belief being in His presence is impossible. It is about US being finite; not Him. To me, twisting the scripture to be more acceptable to your finite logic is much more degrading.

theProdigal

[hfojvt]

124. is the word "relationship" mentioned?

I would interpret that to mean "no one gets to heaven except by following my teachings". I find, as C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Abolition of Man" that most of the worlds moral traditions have a common thread, including the teachings of Jesus, which he himself seemed to imply came from Jewish scripture. Thus, there are many ways to serve God, and follow Jesus's teachings.
What I find is that people want to narrow things and strain at gnats. For them, the truth is pi = 3.1415926535897932384626433832795 and anybody who disagrees about any of those digits out to the ten millionth is an accursed heretic. For me 22/7ths is close enough. So a devout Muslim, Hindu, etc. anyone who makes a sincere effort to do the right thing in their life is going to be welcomed, and so is an atheist like Bertrand Russell or Isaac Asimov who seemed truer to Jesus than alot of people who say "Lord, Lord".

[chicagiana]

114. Greek ...

It was first laid penned in greek, not AraMaic. The Jesus Jews (Church of James(Jesus' Brother)) would have recorded it in Hebrew.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

123. while the penning was in Greek

the spoken words of Christ were most likely Aramaic...and, if I am not mistake, since much the Gospel Message was initially handed down through verbal means, some of it was most likely written in Aramaic...but them compiled into what we know today as the Gospel either in Greek or Hebrew.

theProdigal

[indigobusiness]

146. The subtlties of language and nuance comes into play,

and yeilds extreme differences in meaning and interpretation.

[chicagiana]

113. Through the person, or through the word ...

If it's through the word, I think a LOT of those Jesus fearing fauxndamentalists will end up living in hell. Because they are certainly NOT living the words of Christ. They're only clinging to something that they believe will further their own interests.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

126. agreed

professing faith and living faith are two different things. Truer words have never been spoken than, "Faith without works is dead." How can you proclaim Christ and live like a demon? Only one way...deceit.

theProdigal

[BeTheChange]

169. IMHO..

It means that we cannot be perfect.. no man is perfect, no man has to be perfect because one perfect man died so that we were all forgiven.

It's about accepting that.

[VOX]

65. Yep, that's their fear-based game: "You're either with us or against us."

The basic message to the non-believing heathen is: "You are gambling with your immortal soul."

It's an all-or-nothing show that they're running. Which is *precisely* why they constantly damn the "liberal shades of grey."
Critical thinking, introspection, caution -- these are all "secular humanist" concepts, and are not of God, supposedly. (Like God doesn't want you to use the mind He gave you.)

That's why science and rational thought are in the toilet right now. It's this kind of absolutist ideation that's going to cause The End, if it's not turned back.

What nobody ever gets down to is the fact that fundamentalist Christianity is a very BIG *business*. It is a helluva moneymaker. Fear, prophecy, damnation, death and destruction all play well with the pocketbook. Does anyone in their right mind think that all this man-made foolishness is what Jesus had in mind?

[chicagiana]

116. If the world is black and white ...

... why did god make color????

[VOX]

171. Precisely! Welcome to DU, chicagiana!

:toast:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Egg-zactly. Catholics, of course (among other subsects)...

...believe this is poppycock.

[ibegurpard]

71. Who cares?

It's a waste of time to argue with someone about the afterlife. I don't care whether someone insists I'm going to hell but I DO care when they try to muscle their religious ideals into public policy that affects people of ALL faiths.

[Merlin]

74. Jesus never made such silly claims. These lies are undoing christianity.

Jesus never believed he was starting a new religion. He never claimed himself to be divine. And he never, ever proclaimed that "belief" is more important than doing good works.

Even the gospels' warped retellings of Jesus words establish that he was above all a social reformer, and disdained those who claimed to be holy while scorning the poor, the weak, the hungry and the powerless.

Common sense also tells us the idea that he died on the cross in order to "redeem us from our sins" is complete hocus nonsense. What god in his right mind would demand his son die in order to satisfy some blood lust; as vengeance for the sins of mankind? If Jesus was god, why did he demand his own death? If god is all good, and a god of peace and love, how would such a death expiate guilt? What utter nonsense!

These are the reasons Christianity is fading into irrelevancy. Yes, we see a resurgence of fundamentalism today, and yes we must deal with its political implications, but it is largely due to the fear of religion's overall fading relevance.

[BeHereNow]

75. Another example of how they "cherry pick" scripture.

They conveniently forget the story of the thief
on the cross next to Jesus at the crucifixion.
In Luke 23:43 Jesus says to him:
"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
In short, the thief in the last minutes of his "sin filled" life
is promised heaven.
So what, say they, to that?
bhn

[ProdigalJunkMail]

86. what is said to that is...

that he believed in Jesus as the Messiah and THAT is what is required to get the golden ticket. No matter when...as long as it's real...a heart change...

theProdigal

[BeHereNow]

88. I respectfully disagree...

The thief never declaresor accepts him as the Christ, he
only asks that he (Jesus) remember him.
According to the x-tians, to be "saved"
you must declare/accept Christ as your personal saviour.
The thief never did. He just asked to be remembered.
bhn

[ProdigalJunkMail]

92. as I said

he had a heart change (I cannot know that but it sounds as if Jesus did) and he must have believed SOMETHING about Jesus or why ask to be remembered? The one criminal who hurled insults was essentially put in his place by the saved criminal just prior to this request for remembrance...he stated that he believed that Jesus had done nothing wrong ... nothing to deserve crucifixion ... sounds as if he knew a little of his life and possibly even his claims ... he may have accepted Jesus before ever being crucified...

It is a good question though...
theProdigal

[chicagiana]

121. Railing against the man ...

... of course a hebrew had done nothing do deserve being crucified by the occupying Roman forces OR the corrupt temple priests!!!

[chicagiana]

93. Words speak louder than actions ....

... yes thats their line. But it's really not unique to the fauxndamentalists.

This has been the traditional position of MOST christian sects since the church was codified at Nicea.

Recently, the Catholic church has backed off this position and seem content to peaceful coexistence with Jews, Muslims and ... whoever. It's quite heartening as the #1 source of persecution in the history of the world has seemingly reversed it's stance and may be accepting the notion that their is more than one path to one god.

I reject Pascal's theocratic conjecture outright. I believe in the god that appears to Arthur in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". He will smite the stupid, syncophantic, groveling and those who impose themselves to looking at Socrates' the cave wall. He will reward those who ponder the untold possibilities of existence through both religion and science since existence is the truest form of revelation.

To explore the true nature of existence is to explore the divine!!!! Or as Einstein put it "I'm reading the mind of god".

[indigobusiness]

101. Maybe, the point is not to preoccupy your thoughts with concern

for your job, or your mortgage, but with matters of spirit; however you are sincerely able?

[chicagiana]

122. Look at the cave wall, look at the cave ...

... nothing to see over there!!! Look away!!!!

[indigobusiness]

136. Matters of spirit

are lost on pragmatists.

[maveric]

106. Unless you are repug. Then you can do whatever you want, steal, kill,

lie, cheat, rape...BUT as long as you accept Jaysus as your savior on your deathbead, you will be forgiven and enter the gates of heavan.
Isnt that one a sick concept?

[hfojvt]

107. Maybe it is a pride issue

Put it this way, you are in the Niagara river called life, rushing towards your drop over the falls into your grave. Jesus is standing on the bank throwing you a life preserver. All you have to do is grab it. God is not sending you to hell, but allowing you to make the choice - accept salvation or not.
Maybe it cannot be proven, but what would you accept as proof? You want Jesus to visit you personally, or better yet, send an angel that looks like the red-head on TV, or the dude who plays God on Joan of Arcadia (depending on your preference)?
As the story of Lazarus goes, Jesus said "They have Moses and the prophets. If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not listen even if someone rises from the dead."

Not that that is what I believe, but only how I would explain what fundies believe. For myself, the choice is not "believe in Jesus or not". It is "be on the side of good (God)" or not, and almost everyone makes it to heaven eventually, it is only a question of how long you have to spend in purgatory getting there. Fundies believe that I will goto hell for believing that, but I am not worried. I am being useful, hopefully.

[Goldmund]

115. The very term "the rest of eternity"...

...is a window into how smart these buggers really are.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

128. nah...it is a little problem most humans have with what they see

as linear time. If you ever ask some of them what eternity means...they get the forward and backward aspect of it. It is simply a reference point from here forward...people are smarter (and yes, dumber) than they are given credit for being.

theProdigal

[Goldmund]

131. Interesting point

But saying "the rest of X" would, to me, suggest that X is a scalar, not a vector -- or in other words, that it doesn't have a direction. If "eternity" is defined as "infinite time", and infinity minus anything finite, or a lesser infinity, is still infinity -- then "the rest of eternity" is still "eternity", no less eternal than it ever was.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

132. yes...i think :-)

i am just saying people have a tendency to think of time as a straight line because that is how most of us experience it and refer to it with language that suits that perception...

theProdigal

[indigobusiness]

137. Y'all are confusing 'eternal' with 'everlasting'.

Consult Joseph Campbell.

[indigobusiness]

130. Precisely. Eternal is a built in quality.

Infernal is more the cut if their jib.

[ktowntennesseedem]

129. I'm a liberal and a Christian.

I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist church, but have grown from those simple beginnings. I still consider myself Christian, because I still strive to follow Christ's teachings: love one another, don't judge others, forgive, help the less fortunate, seek justice and peace, etc. But I abhor the intolerance and narrow-mindedness that goes with fundamentalism.

They get the whole idea of "Jesus or Hell" from many scriptures, but primarily from one passage in John's gospel, chapter 3. Jesus tells Nicodemus that one must be "born again" to enter God's kingdom. Fundamentalists read this to mean if your not "born again" you won't enter the kingdom. When Nicodemus is confused by what he thinks is a literal rebirth, Jesus speaks of God's spirit moving where it will and our inability to understand all of God's mysteries. Fundies would say this means we aren't to question God's ways and just accept everything on faith. Then we have perhaps the most well-known verse 16, when Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life." Which the fundies interpret to mean "if you don't believe, you won't have eternal life."

But what fundamentalists never realize is that Jesus never really said what he meant by born again. They say it has to be the same emotional moment they experienced, and anything less doesn't count. God's ways are mysterious, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek deeper understanding, and it has nothing to do with God being so selective or for excluding so many because their spiritual experiences are different. And for me, the most important point to verse 16 is the fact that God loved, and still loves, the world, and if I am to be a follower of the one who said those words, I, too, need to love the world, without exclusions or reservations.

[ogsball]

133. I enjoy going through these "exclusive" passages

and show that what Jesus was saying was actually about being "inclusive" of other beliefs and that basically it's not our job to tell folks that God doesn't love them.

[ktowntennesseedem]

140. They SAY God loves all, but their actions don't match their rhetoric.

As a Christian, I'm supposed to love everyone even as God does, and then humbly confess when I fall short of that goal (which is very often, believe me!) That keeps me way too busy to worry about matters that are of no concern to me in the first place.

They won't admit it, but at the core of any fundamentalist's faith is a rewards system whereby we must earn God's love through pious living and avoidance of sin. Those who do are saved, those who don't aren't. If God excludes anyone for not failure to do something or for doing something wrong, then it must be necessary to do something right to be included. But I don't buy if for an instant; that's why I outgrew by upbringing so fast, but also why my mom thinks I'm a heretic! Not only do I believe God loves everyone, but I still believe God's love is given freely, we don't earn it. And from that it follows that it's none of my business trying to tell God who should and shouldn't receive that free gift.

[indigobusiness]

135. Christianity is fundamentally a liberal ethos.

Rationalizing that fact is absurd.

To wit:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x110

[IndyPriest]

163. Radical, I'd day

Love, hope, reconciliation vs. fear, control, damnation. Dan Berrigan, Martin Luther King, Jr., Dorothy Day -- got it about right.

[JVS]

142. It's a matter of being judged on your own merits vs. accepting forgiveness

Go ahead and roll the dice if you think you're so good.

[murray hill farm]

143. Gods OK...its the religions that are fucked!

And eternity? Time does not exist outside of gravity...so if ya have no body, eternity means nothing....has no meaning at all.

[Harlan James]

145. If God is so petty that...

...He actually spends his time (assuming that is what He lives in) stressing over such stuff as the differences in the liturgies, worship styles, and prayer clothing of the several billion living beings on this woebegone planet who worship Him, then we're all doomed. I seriously doubt that anyone here will have gotten it right enough for such an exacting and fussy divine entity.

In my humble opinion religion has always revealed far more about the foibles and conceits of mankind than it has anything about God.

[ever_green]

149. Religious people have a mental disorder of sorts

You have to be somewhat crazy IMO to believe that garbage. I don't thik people should be stopped from believing it, it just doesn't appeal to me.

[Kablooie]

150. God as boogieman. Simple as that.

The boogieman is a great enforcer of human beliefs and the boogieman comes in many delightful shapes and sizes good for all situations. Christian fundamentalists feel the need to cast God as the boogieman in order to enforce their beliefs. I guess the beliefs aren't strong enough to hold up on their own.

[murray hill farm]

157. So true

God as boogyman..i love it..funny because it is so true.

[brainwashed]

158. Belief

Neither god nor spirituality actually exist according to the
latest scientific findings by John Searle at UC Berkeley. You
can make up anything or any properties you want concerning the
spiritual realm but for it to have any effect whatsoever on
the physical universe, your body, or your mind, there
absolutely must be a physical interface. That interface does
not exist. Belief usually results in stupidity. It's not a
very effective means of thinking compared to the use of
science.

[CarbonDate]

168. While you guys are still debating this point....

...I'll be traveling to New Mexico to visit my grave from a past life. If anybody needs me, I'll be around... and around... and around....

[greyfox]

176. Totally unproven?

Naw. God knows all about it. LOL

Hey, it is HIS word, not ours.