here's a question for your (and my) pro-armageddon fundie friends:

[jdj]

I've heard that revelations was written during the Roman persecution of Christians, as sort of the ultimate fantasy of revenge and retribution, but many who elected Bush are salivating for Armageddon to start today. I just want them to answer this, if Revelations was really about the future, why are the vehicles "horses" and "horsemen" and the weapons are "swords" not bombs?

No where in the bible does it say "The lord maketh the armies of God to droppeth the A-Bomb upon the heathens", or the "The lord sancitifieth the depleted uranium to poison the spawn of the enemy for all generations, his seed shall rot on the vine" and so on and so forth and verily and forsooth.

I suppose this makes me a doubter, and I will be exposed and my skirts thrown over my head to show the world my shame when the Lord does come rolling in on a horse instead of an armored humvee, but this is an incredibly serious threat to the future of this planet, humor aside, and these beliefs are what are justifying the war in Iraq right now, it's why the populace is so unmoved by it, they see it as a biblical prediction, instead of a passion play about "whut I woulda done if I'd a' had me an army" back in the day.

[9119495]

1. You're a smart person

because you've realized one of the major contradictions in their dogma--you can't question the bible, it is wholly accurate, and cannot be interpreted. So if it cannot be interpreted, then no changes can be made in the weapons used for Armagedon. No extra hours can be included in the days of creation.

[jdj]

6. is this a clause in revelations?

I mean, I wouldn't WANT them to use horses, because I'm into animal rights, but if they could only use swords, well, that kind of wasn't the point.

BUT, don't the horses in that part have wings? Or is that greek mythology...

[LisaLynne]

2. Yes, it is very serious.

There is a faction of Fundies who would see no problem with "helping" Armageddon along. This "end times" stuff fuels a lot of destructive ideas and attitudes -- like not caring about global warming or the environment, thinking anyone not of your religion is going to die anyway, so why help them (or why not kill them) now, etc.

I suppose the Fundie answer would be that it was written in the language of the day and they didn't have words for A-bombs or Humvees back then. Now, if "god" was giving a "revelation" to a "prophet", it would seem there would be some more specifics, but ... well, that's where they'll just tell you that you're of the devil and storm off. Or that you don't have the Holy Spirit or enough of it to understand.

[wickywom]

3. There are several issues I feel would be prevelant...

especially the issue of science
The bible reflects the social attitudes of the time in which it was written and re-translated... always by men...who usually lived with other men.. and usually didn't have sex...hmmmm...

They would tell you that they wouldn't have the words to describe what was in their premonitions.
It's a good book based some history.. but I don't worship it, nor do I consider it "the word of God"--

Fundies leave out anything that doesn't help their arguement.

[yellowcanine]

4. Reveletion was written by John on the island of Patmos, known for it's

potent hallucinogenic mushrooms. I report - you decide.

[Zynx]

5. Half-right: It was written by A John.

Not the Apostle. The dates for him doing so are frankly improbably from a historical point of view.

So it was written by some dude named John.

[jdj]

8. Some dude named John? Or was he just in the john?

Or was he a john? you know, a client of one of the vestal virgins? (which at the time meant independent woman, not "chaste")

[merh]

7. No, the Bible does not contain anything like you seek.

Matthew 26
51Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+26&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

[jdj]

9. Well gottdamn, lets bring the troops home and call up the angel units.

How many are in a legion? He has twelve legions, is that enough?

[Zynx]

10. Depends - did He mean Roman Legions?

Classic Roman legion was around 6,000 men.

[jdj]

12. Well, his Dad is God, so he can whip the Roman's asses.

"My Dad's legions are way bigger than your Dad's legions".

And they are angels, so they are hermaphrodites with super-powers (or something like that).

[merh]

21. No, he won't call them up, even to save himself!

He doesn't believe in violence. Don't know why the fundies do. :shrug:

[Lerkfish]

11. if you'd like a serious answer....

although it appears that you don't really, but I'll attempt to give you a serious answer about revelations (from an non=fundie, but a liberal christian)...

Revelations, because of its allegorical nature, is highly open to interpretation, and therefore ripe for misinterpretation. (which is why over the centuries this group or that has claimed to be living in the end times).
It was written by john on the island of patmos while in exile. For this reason, many believe it was couched in allegory intentionally in order to allow it to be delivered without being intercepted as seditious. How to interpret it falls along several possible lines:

1. it was a reference to John's own times, but concealed by allegory so as not to raise red flags. There is some validity to this as many of the churches mentioned are current ones.
2. It was the relating of a vision of the future (taken literally), but due to the spiritual nature of the revelation, or the fact that someone from his time would not RECOGNIZE a tank if he saw one, leads to confusing imagery.
3. It was a revelation, but only in John's own mind rather than divinely delivered.

If you consider #2, John would not have known what an A-bomb was, but he does describe a star dropped from heaven that destroyed one third of all life and produced a dark cloud that blocked the sun and moon -- certainly that could be interpreted as a nuclear device, if you wanted to.
Similarly, there is the creatures that are armored for battle, with tails, and the tails are used to hurt -- could be interpreted as a tank, and mistaking the gun for a tail.

I could go on, but the point is that saying revelations did not specifically describe an A bomb as an A bomb and that disproves the prophecy (if it is one), is too simplistic and doesn't take into account how a 1st century man would describe 21st century warfare.

But you are correct in saying the armies of God would NOT be the armies of the beast in armageddon...but revelations doesn't claim that. It only describes the battle, and the nature of the battle, the identity of the major players is vague and interpretable.

If one believes, as I do, that its POSSIBLE that Bush is in fact the antichrist, then you have to realize that the fundies are the elect which have been completely fooled by him. As such, reality or accuracy in interpretation of prophecy goes out the window. They are being mightily mislead by the nose ring of their own beliefs, even if Bush is NOT the antichrist.

[jdj]

13. unless I missed the rapture, Bush is NOT the antichrist.

and "from Heaven" to me means above the earth's atmosphere, which could apply to a comet, or a meteorite.

No, I really don't want a serious answer, but I would love for liberal christians to get off their hineys and take to the streets to wrest their religion out of the hands of these modern day philistines before they exterminate all life on this planet. Anyone, anyone?

[Lerkfish]

16. right.

we come back to this chestnut again: you detest my religion because of the fundies and then demand I do something about it.
I'll be right behind you as soon as you convert all republicans to democrats.

[jdj]

17. you better get busy now.

I'm on the secular end of things, but as someone of whatever faith you are, you've got street cred. You folks HAVE GOT to do this, no one else can.

[Lerkfish]

20. listen carefully, NO ONE CAN.

they have their heads encased in concrete. You can choose to blame ME for that, or accept reality. They have chosen to encase their own heads in concrete. Nothing I or you can do will change that, until such a point comes they remove the concrete themselves.

I realize it makes you feel better to tell me to get off my "hiney".
also realize it it is highly patronizing to reject my religion then demand I fix the fundies.

[jdj]

22. I didn't say fix them, I said stand up and be heard, take

whatever religion it is back from them, for one thing, start reporting your own churches to the IRS when they endorse candidates, that is a violation of their tax exemption. Call local reporters and get them on the news when they try to dictate to the people in the congregation how to feel about abortion, etc.

Take to the streets and march as christians of whatever stripe, stand up publicly and denouce the whoring of religion for political ends by this administration and it's supporters. Demand that whatever church you attend stays out of politics, even if it is left-leaning.

And so on, there is so much that needs to be done that only religous people can do, because if religious leftists and dems don't stand up, then we look like a party of atheists. And we, meaning agnostics, certainly can't speak for you.

[Lerkfish]

23. so.....

you're not really paying attention to what I'm saying, I suppose. But you're assuming if I"m a liberal christian that my church is not, and that I should report them to the IRS for election irregularities?

Listen again: those aren't the churches that liberal christians are attending. I do not run across the fundies at all....

I throw up my hands. You have a persistent image in your mind that won't get shaken.

[KuTava]

14. Won't work

Having read Hal Lindsay's book in the 1970's ... fundamentalists do not take Revelation literally. Or if they do, they take it that it was literally a vision.

Asking people to justify beliefs they don't hold just makes us look like we can't see past our own prejudices. Kind of like when sexists ask why women are so (fill in the blank) -- it just shows them up for the sexists they are.

[jdj]

15. honey, I'm one of them, and yes they do believe the rapture

and armageddon are coming.

I don't know why you are using "us" and "we", I know there are a significant number of atheists in this country, I've heard estimates at about 30 million, but most of them didn't grow up this way.

And having grown up a southern Baptist fundamentalist, and currently being surrouded by them, I can tell you everything that happens on the news to them is a freaking sign the bible is being fulfilled. I haven't heard how they are spinning Arafat's death yet, but even global warming and it's attendant climate upsets are a "sign" the end times are here.

edit: instead of gleaning xtian anthropology from a 30 year old book, trying sitting in a baptist church one sunday. That should be an eye-opener. Or just watch Charles Stanley or one of the other proclaimers on church Sunday morning.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi KuTava!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[RUDUing2]

18. you have to remember the mindset...

while fundies claim to read the Bible literally in reality they dont.

The claim is that Revelations is an allegory...not a literal story...which is why they call the RCC the Whore of Babylon and the Pope the antichrist...(which is why I dont understand how any catholic could vote for Bush..don't they realize that to him Catholics are no more christians then Islamics are?....)

[jdj]

19. it's not a quaint anecdote anymore.

the whole planet is in real danger from these folks, it's this mindset that they use to manipulate xtain repukes into supporting their environmental legislation; "well, since jesus is coming back soon I guess it really doesn't matter about the poison in the water and the acid rain"...

those of us ex-pats from religion have always know what a dangerous philosphy this is and what havoc these folks could wreak if they ever got real power...well, they've got it now, let the havoc wreaking commence.