IT'S NOT RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE, IT'S SELF DEFENSE!

[bacchant]

Right after a bitter, humiliating, defeat - due in no small part to the "faithful" - we are swarmed with messages about how we must reach out and coddle the religious. "We need to treat them with respect and acquiesce to their needs..." Some of us have difficulty with the concept that we've got to bend over backward to support, often irrational, people who have no interest in reciprocity. I have never had a problem with anyone's PERSONAL beliefs, but I have a problem supporting the notion that religion has any place in politics. Pandering to those who believe it does will only embolden a movement that is already too powerful.

[datasuspect]

1. AMEN brother

[aquart]

2. The Miracle of the Religious Bigots never happened.

It is the Bush cover story for the theft.

[Vincardog]

6. EXACTLY the VOTE FRAUD is the true story nt

[Skidmore]

23. Even if it didn't happen statistically, it is a fact that the

evangelical movement BELIEVES it has real power to effect its agenda now and are actively applying pressure to do just that within a short time frame. Not addressing the bigotry and oppressive designs of this group up front is something that this nation will pay dearly for. I respect everyone's right to worship as they please. Just keep your religious practices out of government.

[Vincardog]

3. Let us not forget the thing to save us is:

AMMENDMENTS TO
THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION


----------------------------------------------------------------------

1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

[ewagner]

4. Molly Ivans had a take on that

some time ago...I saw her on CSPAN so I don't have a link but I can paraphrase it pretty well. It went something like this:

I understand the Christains are scared. I understand that they're worried. They think they are under attack and losing the things they value. I feel sorry for them. BUT I'll be damned if I'm going to allow the blue-nosed SOBs to run my government.

[luaneryder]

15. Did Ivins go on to

explain what is was Christians were worried about and afraid of? I'd like to know because I can't figure out who is attacking them and what it is they're losing.

[ewagner]

27. Sorry for the late reply...

...damned fax machine has been busy today....

If I remember correctly they thought that things like taking prayer out of schools, god out of the pledge etc., were devaluing their beliefs.....

It's been a long time but that's what I seem to remember.

[luaneryder]

31. Thanx, ewagner.

This is an argument I truly don't understand. I see the exact opposite going on in this country, but maybe it's just me.

[eleonora]

5. Agreed

Religion has NO PLACE whatsoever in the government. I won't back down one bit on it. Tolerance swings both ways or should at least.

[choicevoice]

7. I agree wholeheartedly

I have no problem with people worshiping as their conscience dictates. Having said that, their religion has no place in our government. If we continue to allow this incursion into our government I fear civil disobedience is the least of the worries they will have. I for one will be on the front line to take back our government anyway possible.

[fudge stripe cookays]

11. Ooohhh...good new bumper sticker.

"YOUR religion has no place in MY government."

Whaddya think?
FSC

[MountainLaurel]

20. One I've seen

You don't pray in my school, and I won't think in your church.

[msmcghee]

24. I made one last year that says . .

. . "Keep Your God Out of My Government"

It's gotten some great thumbs-ups and smiles on the freeway.

I'll send you the file if you want to print one out for yourself.

[Lone Pawn]

8. You know what the really, really crazy thing is?

I can imagine the original message, word-for-word, on Free Republic two days after 9/11.

Not that I disagree. Fundamentalism anywhere is bad. But it's interesting.

[Padraig18]

9. 'Acquiesce to their needs'?

I must have missed that post...

:eyes:

[bacchant]

12. I expected you sooner

I took a little "license" with that one, but you get the gist.
;)

[Padraig18]

17. Just a little...

;)

[superconnected]

10. right down to the core

it's hipocracy right to the core.

We're suppose to embrace a group that hates everyone who isn't like them - gays, muslims, pro-choice women, anti-war protesters.

I'll embrace the Christian Coalition when they allow Gays to marry in their churches, let Muslims run services in them when they're not using them, and when they start protesting US soldiers murderering civilians in Foreign countries.

For now I'll just remember the early 80's when they were fighting making a law against spousal abuse (they thought men should be allowed to beat their wives), which was a very important influence in my childhood(I was shocked as I watched them on tv arguing against it, as well as when they declared rape couldn't happen to a woman who wasn't willing -same time frame), and say, no way in hades am I embracing the monster.

[Forkboy]

13. Yep

I agree with that.

[MatrixEscape]

14. There can be NO giving in ...

to religious fundies. They are out for total Dominionism = domination.

They have to be met head-to-head, line-for-line. They must not be encouraged in their political goals or we are in for a relentless, Theocratic nightmare. Resistance is the imperative.

Theocracy is not American at all, nor is it patriotic.

[info being]

16. Yup.

Religion is germain until it gets power. Then it becomes the enemy.

[tanyev]

18. You know, the Bible records several

instances of Jesus shooting down the idea that the promised Messiah was coming to bring political power, which was the common expectation of the Jews of that time. He said repeatedly, "My kingdom is not of this world." Frankly, I think that any Christian group who is focused on wielding political power has completely abandoned the mission that God wants them to fulfill.

[SaintAnne]

19. my religion

in this country I feel like my little religion is smothered by Christianity. It makes me scared.
the united states has a doctrine of separating church and state for a reason. So that we all can have our own faith. No religion is above another, all religions are equal and valid in their own right.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was part of the Common Law" -- Thomas Jefferson. To anyone who shouts, "America is a Christian Nation" I would like them to think about that. For everyone else, it should make you feel better. America has many many many many many different religions here, and it is the government's job to promote equality and keep them all in line.
for now, I sit with my little chalice, hoping the light doesn't go out.

[The Wielding Truth]

21. How about their sweet understanding and respect for other religions!

Can't they be expected to practice what they preach?

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. Keep fighting for

separation of church and state.

-----------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[MadHound]

25. Hear hear!

There is war coming in this country, pitting the religiously tolerant against those who want theocratic fascim. It is high time that we started doing the groundwork to insure that this country remains the great SECULAR state that it is. And many many people on both sides of the religious fence are going to have to choose sides.

I know that much of the rhetoric around here paints with a broad brush, and is insulting to our Christian friends and allies. But they also need to develop a bit thicker skin, for the kinds of remarks they are reading here are but a taste of what many of us have had to put up with for years and decades. It isn't meant in disrespect, it is simply venting pent up frustration and fury at the hijacking of our great country by a minority of religious fundementalists.

[bacchant]

26. Well said n/t

[Batgirl]

28. even if we try to "bargain" with batshit fundies

they won't be satisfied until they're eliminated every last expression of non-approved thought. And if they ever manage that, they'll still be screaming how marginalized and persecuted they are.

This article (written in Oct) is pretty insightful in explaining how the right has manipulated the fundies. The most provocative insight, for me, is the idea that fundie hatred of liberals is "displaced class rage" -- they hate the "snooty", supposedly intellectual libs who are standins for "the boss."

The right has manipulated this part of their base, and trained them like a troupe of little performing dogs -- as they wag their fuzzy tails and jump through flaming hoops the little buggers have no idea who their real Master is:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1123/

"It took little to convince them, in other words, that abortion‚ and busing, and affirmative action, and criminal justice reform, and a host of other issues‚ were antithetical to their way of life. Liberal moral vanity had been foisted on them against their will."

"And so flowered the trope of displaced class rage, where the liberal stood in as a proxy for the boss. The deindustrialization of the 80s and early 90s continued to produce a healthy surplus of discontent, and the bright young operators of the conservative movement continued to organize and channel it to the Republican Party's ends."

"Here was a party remaking the American political system according to the dictates of the monied interests, all the while presenting itself as the standard-bearer for the humble and neglected."

"Consumed by power lust, the conservative movement continually played the martyr, spoke of its persecution at the hands of a liberal overlord class. Amazingly, people bought it. The investment paid off."

"Not only did the conceit sell, it assumed the dimensions of folklore. What was Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ, for example, but a retelling of the backlash myth with biblical scenery? The publicity campaign was carefully planned and executed to make sure that all the usual suspects -- the New York Times, the liberal church folk, the PC crowd, the Jews -- could scourge poor Mel in plain view of the nation's fundagelicals. They repaid him seven times sevenfold for his trouble."

"No, the backlash narrative no longer needs to be explained. We take it in like the air we breathe. The millions of fans of Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh, the Christians who hold vigils for fetuses and agitate for school prayer, the proud displayers of flags and yellow ribbons, all share this common refrain: We are victims, and we deserve our revenge."

[bacchant]

29. Interesting stuff

Thanks for hipping me to that.

[Neshanic]

30. Do you believe the Bible as absolute truth? That tells you who....

are dealing with right away. Take it from there.