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Cyrix Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:28 PM
Original message
Anyone find it hard to care anymore? Is it too late now?
From 2000 onwards I was as involved in politics as I ever was. I got involved, met DK during the primary time, tried to get out the vote, and I even ended up being a delegate to our state convention. Prior to that I paid attention, but didnt get involved.

This election has really opened my eyes though. The masses are firmly under the control of the corporations, media, and the republican party/theocrats.

You know I have read that the founders didn't want another king. Neither do I. Isn't it odd how our system has ended up allowing ONE nut case (the president, whoever it may be), to so easily lead us all down the road to hell?

The founders wanted CONGRESS to be in charge - not a single nut job in the office of the presidency. Likewise, congress was supposed to be for the PEOPLE. But how does the system truly work? ONE guy (rich, male, heterosexual & white of course) runs the whole show. Congress just follows.

Not that things would be better with congress anyway. Congress is supposed to represent the people. Anyone take a look at how many congress people are millionaires? Close to HALF of incoming congress people in 2002 were millionaires. How is it only ONE, TWO, or maybe THREE percent of the population tops is 50% of congress? When that congress is supposed to represent the majority of the population? The majority of which are most certainly NOT counting millions. Clearly the system is broke.

I'm not saying you can't be a millionaire to represent the poor & middle class. I just find it very unlikely the rich can relate. (or give a damn) Minority representation is equally as pathetic. The fact of the matter is congress doesn't represent us. And if congress doesn't represent us then the country is no longer by, for, and of the people. It's just a sham and tool used to manipulate the masses.

This doesn't even count how many congress people represent the corporations. Which in this country are people.

Speaking of the corporations - what ever happened to unions? Apparently something like 13% of american workers are in a union. Of course that check on corporations is all but gone. In fact, my company has a written policy indicating it is a union free company and will remain so. It's actually legal to do that in this country.

In fact my company also has management tell us that if we help the company make money (and we do - a LOT of money) it will go eventually go to us. (trickle down economics) That must be why we make $6/hr while the executives count millions.

Last year we got to waive our right to workers comp and our access to the courts. Even had a video we got to watch about why it was a good thing. No one questioned it, of course.

Apparently in this state an employer can have you waive your right to workers comp in favor of a company provided alternative. (one sided as hell, of course) I find that unbelievable, but then again what would a congress by, for, and of the corporations care?

Not only that I find the fact that corporations can have you waive your RIGHT to bring a complaint to the courts (arbitration) absolutely ridiculous. My god, I don't think americans realize how much power this gives corporations. That's essentially like exempting your self from the rule of law. And that's exactly why so many corporations do it. If corporations being able to avoid the courts isn't a sign of fascism I don't know what is.

The corporations also control the schools. We don't have education anymore - we just have trade schools. It seems like the vast majority of americans think of school & jobs. That's NOT how it should be. Education is supposed to be for it's own sake... to be a more informed citizen. Not exclusively to learn how to perform X job so X corporations can make more millions. In most nations education is about education. Not here though. It's about job training here.

Then of course we have the masses. The primary deal closer for why I find it hard to care anymore. The results of this election shocked me. I went to bed on election night when it was all down to Ohio firmly expecting to wake up with Ohio blue. I thought surely the people wouldn't be so stupid as to put all three branches of government under the control of one theocratic fascist party. Well, looks like I was wrong.

But hey as long as the masses get to have survivor, scott peterson, nice cars, nice homes, and other material bull sh*t what do they care?

I swear some of these people make me wonder how humanity has gotten this far. Prior to the election I had an argument with a republican. At one point I brought up bush's camp in cuba. He asked me what was wrong with that "it's where they have the guys who flew the planes on 9/11". Yes, he freaking said that. I literally froze thinking "my god do people even bother to THINK any more?". But I suppose it's easier to let FAUX news et al think for you.

I don't understand how so many people can do nothing but try to gain so much material things for themselves, while being pacified by reality shows instead of something that actually matters, at the same time saying fu** everyone else and the consequences of this behavior.

I really don't see what can be done to save us in the short term. It could literally take decades to undue the damage that has been done.

We should have stopped all this when we had the chance.

We should have made it illegal for corporations to prevent unions from being formed.

We should have made it illegal to sign away your rights.

We should not have allowed corporations to be people.

We should not have allowed corporations to escape the courts.

We should not have allowed media consolidation.

We should not have allowed education to deteriorate in to job training.

We should not have allowed our congress to stop representing us.

We should not have allowed one person (the president and his masters) to control us when we should control HIM.

We should not have allowed ourselves to be pacified by reality TV and whatever other pointless garbage (peterson/shark attacks/etc) they come up with to keep us unfocused.

We should not have allowed ourselves to care more about getting that nice new car instead of the well being of others.

We should not have allowed ourselves to go abroad destroying.

We should not have allowed the theocrats to gain so much influence.

People say "all we need to do is fix the voting and then we can win again". Well you know what? We were asleep at the wheel when these voting machines were spreading across the country. Back when we could have taken steps to secure our elections. Now they control everything. It's no longer a simple matter of fixing the system. How do you fix the voting machine problem when the people that need to fix it are the ones benefiting, and now in power? Again, we should not have allowed our voting system to be compromised when we had the chance to stop it.

Now I just don't know what to do really. I see the whole system is fu**ed from congress, to society, to the media, and I really don't know how to fix it. All I know is it's not going to be an overnight thing. And I know I don't have the answers.
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prof_science Donating Member (343 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. No, not too late...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:41 PM by prof_science

(ok, and now I'll go back and actually read what you said...)

on edit: ok, it's bleak. But still, I believe in my heart that this * administration will somehow bring about their own demise. Let me restate: I think the * administration will make a fuckup so monumental (I mean, MORE monumental than the myriad fuckups to date-- perhaps screwing with the vote, perhaps this war, I don't know) that heads will roll. Naive perhaps, yes, but I'm optimistic that change is in motion.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. First off step away from the kool aid,
now putit down

You truly believe that people waited in some cases up to ten hours to vote for George and his minions? You truly believe this?

They did not

Their votes were not counted.

Now what they should have given people was "I voted, I think" or "I voted, for whoever the machines told me to."

One more thing, it is usually darkest before the sun comes up in the morning, and this is exactly where we are right now, It is easy to give up right now, and truly tempting, Hell it is even tempting to not vote ever again... that my friend is what they want you to do.

Now as efforts to recount start here is what I wnat YOU to do, get rid of those infernal machines

Don't expect the feds to do it, it will have to be us

Educate people that their vote was stolen (yes it was... way too many reports of... I pressed teh Kerry button but the Bush button lit up, and I had to tell the poll worker," or "I was repeateddly challenged in my right to vote," or "the machines did not reset from one voter to the next."

Way too many of them... we are not imagining things, they stole it, and now the question is can we prove it and will we be able to prove it?

Oh and we must take back our party, start at the local level... how do you think the repukes did it? One precinct at a time. Also we must run for school boards, dog catchers, et al, to counter their influence at the local level

Oh and if we don't do it and give up, this nightmare will last even longer than we think...

And you are right the Founding Fathers would be aghast, well they were... Adamns tried the same shit and in 1800 he was not able to rig the machines, think of that... though we may still see a very hot and contested civil war. I said Bush won, by hoor or crook, we would see a hot civil war in this country and I am seeing the very early signs of it... this is NOT a normal election and as far as I can see people have not truly accepted the results.
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Cyrix Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I don't know what to believe
I can see the election being stolen. But I can also see people just being too bloody stupid.

"Don't expect the feds to do it, it will have to be us"

I don't see how. I stopped having hope for this when it started to be Ralph Nader, rather than Kerry, addressing the issue.

The feds and states control the voting machines. Period. I can't walk in to my precint and say "hey, let's use a paper ballot". The state or national government has to do that. And right now we don't control them.

"Oh and we must take back our party, start at the local level... how do you think the repukes did it? One precinct at a time. Also we must run for school boards, dog catchers, et al, to counter their influence at the local level"

Do you seriously think there is time for this? What you are proposing doesn't happen overnight. By the time we start over from scrach (which is exactly what you are proposing) we'll probably be under President Jeb Bush.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Corporate Control
You see what I see. And I don't see near enough people who agree. Because they still want their creature comforts. I posted last Sunday that we could end the whole thing tomorrow. All Democrats have to do is pull investments. Then stand up and say, there will be unions, there will be a fairness doctrine, we will not give up our legal rights, we will not have corporate voting machines, we will have trade reform, etc., etc. A few said they'd already moved their investments, many more said they weren't going to cut off their nose to spite their face. So I'm not feeling incredibly hopeful either, but I keep trying. From my observations of change over the last 30 years, people will get clued in to the corporate problem in about 10 years. Hang in there!
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YBR31 Donating Member (83 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. Can Someone Post This Please--Fabulous Documentary About Karl Rove
The Sundance Channel is running the documentary,"Bush's Brain" on Friday, November 19. This is worth the the time. Please take the time to watch it and then I'd love to hear what you thought. For more information go to:

Bush's Brain will run on the Sundance Channel:

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VivaKerry Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. What really sucks is,
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:48 PM by VivaKerry
only people with money can afford cable. Maybe they don't need a lot of money, but extra money, which the people who should really SEE this documentary don't have. I don't. No pay channels for this wage worker. Wish I could see the flick.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Hi YBR31!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. We should not have allowed corporate personhood.
The first thing that needs to be done is to put corporations back in their proper place! Corporate personhood needs to be revoked. Unfortunately, I doubt it will ever happen. Too few people even know what corporate personhood is & the corporations have masses of money which translates into influence in government.

Keith Olbermann recently stated, "Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news. Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections."

And consider what else they control: food, energy, health care (or lack of) & soon, water. Meanwhile we stick our heads in the sand regarding climate change & peak oil. The people are more concerned with what hours the shopping mall is open. We can only hope the sheeple will wake up before it is too late.

In the future, I will only vote for a party that addresses this issue its their platform. I agree with your assessment: it will take decades to undo the damage that has been done, if it can be. I am not hopeful. /


Our Bill of Rights was the result of tremendous efforts to institutionalize and protect the rights of human beings. It strengthened the premise of our Constitution: that the people are the root of all power and authority for government. This vision has made our Constitution and government a model emulated in many nations.

But corporate lawyers (acting as both attorneys and judges) subverted our Bill of Rights in the late 1800's by establishing the doctrine of "corporate personhood" -- the claim that corporations were intended to fully enjoy the legal status and protections created for human beings.

We believe that corporations are not persons and possess only the privileges we willfully grant them. Granting corporations the status of legal "persons" effectively rewrites the Constitution to serve corporate interests as though they were human interests. Ultimately, the doctrine of granting constitutional rights to corporations gives a thing illegitimate privilege and power that undermines our freedom and authority as citizens. While corporations are setting the agenda on issues in our Congress and courts, We the People are not; for we can never speak as loudly with our own voices as corporations can with the unlimited amplification of money.

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VivaKerry Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Someone told me a buddhist thought the other night:
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:47 PM by VivaKerry
You have to let evil emerge and be seen and be felt and to run its course, in order for good to rise up and quash it. (my paraphrasing).

I figure, let this evil run its course. Will you and I and the rest of the living benefit one iota from that strategy? Nope. We are going to suffer; our aging parents will suffer. Our children will suffer. But, imo, we all deserve it because the world DESERVES for the USA to blow its wad so it can get on with the business of living well.

It is so insane to me to think that the un was created in response to hitler's and japan's aggression... to maintain peace. And we were at the center of it being created. Yet, here we are, the ones creating abject destruction of ourselves and the world. I would have never predicted this. Never in a million years. Oh sure, we were being real bad in central america in the 80s.. just an aberration. /sarcasm off. All the signs were there!!!!

Back to my buddhist thought above: We aren't doing bad things to the world as secretly as we did in central america. Evil was hidden, and cloaked. Even with the facts on the table, America kept the realization of what we had done dormant in our minds. Now look at us... evil right out there in front of god and everyone.

I am done worrying about what will happen to us americans. Done, finished. I am taking a global civic mind. The world doesn't deserve our insanity. We do. We let this happen.
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oldlady Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. not too late
but we did oversleep
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nono Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. It is time for us to rebuild
We can win in 06
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Calvinist Basset Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Yes, our situation is bleak, but not hopeless.
In fact, I hope all hell breaks loose before the electoral college meets. But if not, I'll still take heart in the fact that if we put up a strong, focused and unrelenting fight, we will win.

Good will prevail . . .
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. We should not have allowed the Drug War.
That was the beginning of it all, in my book. I was as flabbergasted by that, as people are about the stolen election. AND NOBODY EVEN CAED. They thought it was a good thing. Drugs are BAD. Well, look where it got us. It was just the testing ground. If we accepted that "war", then we would passively accept whatever else they had in their bag of dirty tricks.

If it's any help, I could not have cared less over the last twenty years. But I care now.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Cyrix, I give you the words of Ben Franklin, the eternal optimist.

"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."

I think old Ben was a psychic.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. i'd wager it is too late
the environment was doomed long ago and now it's a matter of the rate which it dies.

politically it seems these people are playing for keeps and abide by no rules ; it's like they are science fiction villons but real

my .02,,,but i am a cynic,, i will not loose hope and will vote again but at this point it's just easier to try and laugh and do good things
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Peace on Earth begins with the individual...we can change things if
we integrate the aspects of ourselves we are at war with....heal the internal wounds in ourselves and our families.

The healing starts within us...then ripples across the community, country and the globe.

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