Suggested new group: Parapolitics

[Minstrel Boy]

Here's a definition of parapolitics: "Political actions of subterfuge, secrecy, and deceit, which are hidden from the public."

The topic would cover subjects such as assassinations, covert actions, the CIA and drugs, MK-ULTRA, BCCI, 9/11 and electoral theft.

In other words, subjects sniffed at by debunkers as "tinfoil hat stuff."

[Artemis Bunyon]

1. Seconded.

x

[seemslikeadream]

2. Third

Yes I remember a time...

Kinda like this

Scare crazy

...

Ronson began his journey into the US army’s heart of cerebral darkness in London, where he got a tip from Uri Geller - the psychic famed for bending spoons on TV in the 1970s. "Under Clinton, the nuttiness was at the fringes but the dynamic changed when the Bushes got into power and it felt like the nuttiness was now at the core of things," Ronson tells me at his Soho club. "So I started asking around and then I heard about remote viewers and psychic spies and, right here on the roof terrace in this building, Uri Geller told me that he’d been ‘re-activated’."

I ask why the US military might have brought Geller back in from the cold. The simple answer is that Geller once belonged to an unofficial unit of psychic spies, formed in the 1970s to read the future and conduct experiments into the supernatural for the US military. Geller’s tip led Ronson to Glenn Wheaton, a retired sergeant and former Special Forces psychic spy who confirmed that the military funded this unofficial unit. There was more to the psychics, however, than trying to "remotely access" Soviet weapons plans or predict China’s next move. They were looking at new forms of warfare, including walking through walls, adopting a cloak of invisibility, even stopping an animal’s heartbeat by staring at it.

Wheaton told Ronson about a "goat lab" where the staring took place and this led him to General Stubblebine III, the army’s chief of intelligence in the 1980s. The General is a big fan of Geller and in Ronson’s documentary lays out a whole trayful of twisted cutlery as evidence of his faith. Stubblebine, says Ronson, was so convinced about these ideas that he spent several weeks trying to conjure up a mental state that would enable him to walk through walls. He never succeeded, but became a powerful advocate of New Age thought.

Ronson is smiling across the table as we discuss the debleated goats he discovered at an army base in Fort Mead, North Carolina, but his story has the darkest of undertones. "It felt as if I was really finding this stuff out for the first time," he says. "No-one knows about the goats. They’re completely new and the guy who told me immediately regretted it."

Such experiments, rumours of which have circulated in the military for years, now have chilling applications in Iraq and Cuba, where suspected terrorists are being interrogated. "What I’m really trying to say is that this stuff is funny and slapstick until it’s implemented and then what you have is Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay," says Ronson.

more
http://news.scotsman.com/features.cfm?id=1310082004

Saturday November 6, 2004
The Guardian

The more I've delved into the US military's psychological warfare, the more examples of New Age-style, First Earth Battalion tactics I've been noticing in the war on terror. I learned of one fact in particular that struck me as entirely incongruous, something at once banal and extraordinary. It happened to a Mancunian called Jamal al-Harith in a place called the Brown Block. Jamal doesn't know what to make of it either, so he mentioned it to me only as an afterthought when I met him in the coffee bar of the Malmaison Hotel, near Manchester Piccadilly station, one June morning this year.
Jamal is a website designer. He lives with his sisters in south Manchester. He is 37, divorced, with three children. He said he assumed MI5 had followed him here to the hotel, but he's stopped worrying about it. He said that he keeps seeing the same man watching him from across the street, leaning against a car, and that whenever the man thinks he's been spotted, he looks briefly panicked and immediately bends down to fiddle casually with his tyre.

Jamal laughed when he told me this. He was born Ronald Fiddler into a family of second-generation Jamaican immigrants. When he was 23, he learned about Islam and converted, changing his name to Jamal al-Harith: he liked the sound of it. He says al-Harith basically means "seed planter".

In October 2001, Jamal visited Pakistan as a tourist, he says. He was in Quetta on the Afghanistan border, four days into his trip, when the American bombing campaign began. He quickly decided to leave for Turkey and paid a local truck driver to take him there. The driver said the route would take them through Iran, but somehow they ended up in Afghanistan, where they were stopped by a gang of Taliban supporters. They asked to see Jamal's passport, and he was promptly arrested and thrown in jail on suspicion of being a British spy.

more
http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,1343776,00.html

[Octafish]

6. News I didn't read about in USA Toady.

There are a few billion dollars' more, but here's another example:

Psychic Soldier Writes Book About Psy-Ops Warfare

In 1995, the Pentagon released information regarding Operation Stargate, an ongoing program to explore the capabilities and possible use of psychics in intelligence operation.

Now, a former soldier is planning a book that details his exploits both on the battlefield and as a "psychic warrior" for America during the Cold War and the Gulf War.

David Morehouse was discharged from the military after refusing to use his psychic powers as a weapon. He claims the government harassed him and his family after he tried to strike a deal with corporations and Hollywood to find a more positive outlet for his purported psychic capabilities.

Morehouse has signed a deal with St. Martin's Press to write the story of how a shot to the head gave him psychic powers, and how he came to be involved in a secret plan to use his newfound psychic powers against America's enemies. Interscope Communications has optioned the film rights to Morehouse's book, "Comes the Watcher: The True Story of a Military Psychic."

After being shot in the head by a Jordanian M-60 round, Morehouse said he began to experience visions and out-of-body experiences. Not long afterward, he reports that he was enrolled in a secret Pentagon program where he worked as a remote viewer, training to visualize images and information about American military enemies.

CONTINUED including the targeting-killing part...'

http://www.parascope.com/en/psychsld.htm

[Octafish]

3. Fourth.

And Kerry forth until we impeach the whole lot of them.

Shedding light on criminality and treason is the first step in its eradication and extraction.



These things you describe, they are crimes
of such enormous magniture that,
when they go unpunished or unnoticed,
they become what fortunes are made of.

Idet: needed a pitcher that wurkd.

[H2O Man]

4. I think that some of it

is interesting, and some is not. I took a small part in a recent conversation on the JFK assassination. I do not believe that anyone has -- or can -- make a serious argument that Oswald shot Kennedy. I believe that it is a serious issue to discuss to understand modern American history. Likewise, the case of Martin Luther King, Jr fits that description. King's family knows the truth about what happened in Memphis, making it hard to call this a paranoid conspiracy case. It is also important to understand the country we live in.

I've said a number of times that I do not believe in LIHOP or MIHOP. But I am interested in what the majority of DUers who do believe these theories have to say. When I see the mainstream media pull out a Mr. Posner to "answer" questions, I find it troubling, because he is a tool that is used to lie about JFK and MLK.

At the same time, that does not mean everything posted is realistic. A few things are simply the flip-side of those on the right who believe that the trafic signs on our highways have coded messages on the back to help UN troops invade at some future time. People with paranoid personalities tend to see that which is not real. Further, as we have seen, there are people who pretend they are COINTELPRO-experienced lawyers who purposely plant misinformation to discredit serious discussions.

[Me.]

5. I'd Be Interested

Especially conversations on the CIA

[chimpymustgo]

7. Great idea. The magic bullet forum.

And don't come in if you don't want to discuss.

[seemslikeadream]

8. I nominate MAGIC BULLET for the name

of the new forum.

:toast:

[Carl Brennan]

9. Sounds like a good idea. I want to discuss "Deep Politics".

:thumbsup:

[Octafish]

10. This forum would be a real KICK in the pants to the BFEE

Pocket History of BFEE

The Bush Family Crime-Line

Representing a criminal class unlike anything the world has ever seen are the Bushes.

Here’s the short history of WHAT WE KNOW:

Bay of Pigs — Bush the Oilman and his Cuban Friends want their property back
Dallas — DeMohrenschildt the Oilman is Friends with both Lee Harvey Oswald and George Bush
Vietnam — Bush aligned companies made a fortune, opponents killed
Watergate — Bush "encouraged" Nixon to resign
October Surprise — Bush, Casey made sure the Ayatollah held the hostages
INSLAW/Promis — Software with trapdoor sold around the world to track the imprisoned
Iraq-gate / Banca Nazionale del Lavoro armed CIA-stooge Saddam
BCCI — Petrodollars, money laundering for terrorists & intel and to create Pakistani H-bomb and bribe US politicians
Savings & Loan scandal in general and Silverado in particular
Iran-contra Guns/Drugs/Martial Law guns traded to killers of 231 US Marines
Gulf War I Glaspie Gives Go-Ahead Bush makes war profits.
Selection 2000 Shreds US Constitution
ENRON Energy Policy helps the fine killers of the planet
9-11 Criminal Negligence, at best; Treason, most likely
Gulf War II worse than Vietnam in terms of potential, same idea as a moneymaker.

Worse than any Ian Fleming master villain, one common tentacle passes through all the above activities — The Octopus that is the Bush Crime Family & Evil Empire, in the service of a Fascistic and Satanic Secret Ruling Elite. Like Dim Son said, “Either you are with us, or you are against us.”

When he puts it that way, it really is easy to decide. I'm opposing Bush and his crooked minions.

[Carl Brennan]

11. kick

[Octafish]

12. Hey, Karl! Remember Safire on Poppy's Iraq-gate treason?

Someone in LBN mentioned the turd Safire is quitting NYT. Well, he wasn't always a sleazebucket. Here he writes a mighty fine missive on how Poppy gave Saddam all the nice weaponry. Funny how few journalists have, uh, picked up the story.

Mods: There shouldn't be a problem with copyright. This comes from the Congressional Record, a public document.


THE ADMINISTRATION'S IRAQ GATE SCANDAL
(BY WILLIAM SAFIRE)
(Extension of Remarks - May 19, 1992)



---

HON. TOM LANTOS

in the House of Representatives

TUESDAY, MAY 19, 1992


Mr. LANTOS. Mr. Speaker, just 1 year ago, Americans were flush with the glow of the military victory over Saddam Hussein. Parades were held in the largest of cities and in the smallest of hamlets. New York and Washington were trying to outdo each other in the splendor of their competing celebrations of victory.

This year, however, we are wallowing in the sordid aftermath of the revelations of the misguided administration policy that brought about that war. We have been treated to details of how the administration bent over backwards in its misguided effort to support the regime of Saddam Hussein on the very eve of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

Mr. Speaker, William Safire summarized this squalid tale of policy run amuck in an excellent article that appeared in yesterday's issue of the New York Times. I ask that this article be placed in the Record, and I urge my colleagues to read it carefully.

THE ADMINISTRATION'S IRAQ GATE SCANDAL

(BY WILLIAM SAFIRE)

Washington: Americans now know that the war in the Persian Gulf was brought about by a colossal foreign-policy blunder: George Bush's decision, after the Iran-Iraq war ended, to entrust regional security to Saddam Hussein.

What is not yet widely understood is how that benighted policy led to the Bush Administration's fraudulent use of public funds, its sustained deception of Congress and its obstruction of justice.

As the Saudi Ambassador, Prince Bandar, was urging Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker to buy the friendship of the Iraqi dictator in August 1989, the F.B.I. uncovered a huge scam at the Atlanta branch of the Lavoro Bank to finance the buildup of Iraq's war machine by diverting U.S.-guaranteed grain loans.

Instead of pressing the investigation or curbing the appeasement, the President turned a blind eye to lawbreaking and directed another billion dollars to Iraq. Our State and Agriculture Department's complicity in Iraq's duplicity transformed what could have been dealt with as `Saddam's Lavoro scandal' into George Bush's Iraqgate.

The first element of corruption is the wrongful application of U.S. credit guarantees. Neither the Commodity Credit Corporation nor the Export-Import Bank runs a foreign-aid program; their purpose is to stimulate U.S. exports. High-risk loan guarantees to achieve foreign-policy goals unlawful endanger that purpose.

Yet we now know that George Bush personally leaned on Ex-Im to subvert its charter--not to promote our exports but to promote relations with the dictator. And we have evidence that James Baker overrode worries in Agriculture and O.M.B. that the law was being perverted: Mr. Baker's closest aid, Robert Kimmett, wrote triumphantly, `your call to . . . Yeutter . . . paid off.' Former Agriculture Secretary Clayton Yeutter is now under White House protection.

Second element of corruption is the misleading of Congress. When the charge was made two years ago in this space that State was improperly intervening in this case, Mr. Baker's top Middle East aide denied it to Senate Foreign Relations; meanwhile, Yeutter aides deceived Senator Leahy's Agriculture Committee about the real foreign-policy purpose of the C.C.C. guarantees. To carry out Mr. Bush's infamous National Security Directive 26, lawful oversight was systematically blinded.

Third area of Iraqgate corruption is the obstruction of justice. Atlanta's assistant U.S. Attorney Gail McKenzie, long blamed here for foot-dragging, would not withhold from a grand jury what she has already told friends: that indictment of Lavoro officials was held up for nearly a year by the Bush Criminal Division. The long delay in prosecution enabled James Baker to shake credits for Saddam out of malfeasant Agriculture appointees.

When House Banking Chairman Henry Gonzalez gathered documents marked `secret' showing this pattern of corruption, he put them in the Congressional Record. Two months later, as the media awakened, Mr. Bush gave the familiar `gate' order; stonewall.

`Public disclosure of classified information harms the national security,' Attorney General William Barr instructed the House Banking Committee last week. `. . . in light of your recent disclosures, the executive branch will not provide any more classified information'--unless the wrongdoing is kept secret.

`Your threat to withhold documents,' responded Chairman Gonzalez, `has all the earmarks of a classic effort to obstruct a proper and legitimate investigation . . . none of the documents compromise, in any fashion whatsoever, the national security or intelligence sources and methods.'

Mr. Barr, in personal jeopardy, has flung down the gauntlet. Chairman Gonzalez tells me he plans to present his obstruction case this week to House Judiciary Chairman Jack Brooks, probably flanked by Representatives Charles Schumer and Barney Frank, members of both committees.

`I will recommend that Judiciary consider requiring the appointment of an independent counsel,' says Mr. Gonzalez, who has been given reason to believe that Judiciary--capable of triggering the Ethics in Government Act--will be persuaded to act.

Policy blunders are not crimes. But perverting the purpose of appropriated funds is a crime; lying to Congress compounds that crime; and obstructing justice to cover up the original crime is a criminal conspiracy.



END

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm

[Carl Brennan]

16. In the article you cite Prince Bandar is mentioned. His wife Haifa

wrote checks to two of the 9/11 terrorists. And those checks came from Riggs Bank with Dubya's Uncle.


Mark Steyn, "Bush and the Saudi Princess" :
https://mail.lsit.ucsb.edu/pipermail/gordon-newspost/2002-December/003897.html
Bush must have known for the best part of a year that in the run-up to 11 September Bandar's wife, Princess Haifa, had been making regular transfers from her Washington bank account to a couple of known associates of the terrorists. Bandar must have known Bush knew. Each party knows the other party knows they're engaged in a charade, but they observe the niceties, with Laura showing Princess Haifa the ranch, Bush hailing the 'eternal friendship' between the Saudi and American people, and Bandar regretting, as the Saudis always do, that they're unable to be more helpful.

[Octafish]

20. The Bush Family Evil Empire at work.

Fueled by trillions of petrodollars, a thrice-looted US Treasury and a big bite of the money from narcotraffickig and the MI-complex, they kill when needed. Thousands if necessary. Too bad more folks can't put it all together. Perhaps if they weren't so afraid.

[Carl Brennan]

65. The petrodollars part is hard to grasp. I read that

approximately 20% of US T-Bills were owned by Saudi Arabia as of the early 80's. Raygun classified this information for national security reasons.

[seemslikeadream]

36. World Muslim League and Riggs Bank

The SAR contains no explanation for the January 2003 transaction. A source close to the Saudi embassy said the money was reimbursement for expenses related to a summer 2003 visit here by officials from around the world. The travel and lodging for the visit was arranged by the embassy's Office of Islamic Affairs, the source said. Another SAR concerns a $6 million check drawn on the Saudi embassy's Riggs account and deposited into the personal account of Ahmed A. Kattan, the No. 2 official at the embassy, on Oct. 19, 2001. In transactions on Oct. 22 and Oct. 24, Kattan had $5.5 million wired out of his account to two men operating a private school in Cairo. The transfers triggered an SAR because Egypt at the time of the transfer was viewed by the U.S. government as lacking anti-money-laundering safeguards.

...

Riggs internal investigators also found a $50,000 payment in October 2001 from the embassy to the American Muslim Council, whose founder, Abdurahman Alamoudi, was charged last September with accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars from Libya, which then was designed by the United States as a sponsor of terrorism. The check was deposited in a Morgan Stanley account after being endorsed by Alamoudi without reference to the council, according to an SAR filed by Riggs. An embassy source said the payment was part of the embassy's long-standing practice of donating money to charities and nonprofit organizations.

Another SAR details more than $17 million in payments last August from the account of the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Defense and Aviation to Ibrahim Shorbatli in Saudi Arabia. Riggs determined that the ministry had been paying Shorbatli $4 million each quarter. Saudi officials told Riggs that the money was for building palaces in Saudi Arabia and that Shorbatli coordinates construction projects for Bandar, but in the SAR Riggs said it could not determine the ultimate use of the funds. The transaction was previously reported in Newsweek.

An embassy source said the money was for a government construction project in Saudi Arabia.

Bandar and his staff were out of the country yesterday and could not be reached, nor could a spokesman for the embassy. An embassy source who asked not to be identified because he is not the official spokesman said diplomats there continue to cooperate with every aspect of the FBI investigation. The source said that as recently as two weeks ago the FBI met with embassy officials and expressed no concern that Saudi officials had done anything wrong or illegal.

But a law enforcement official said that few of the transactions have been adequately explained and that the matter remains under investigation.

Riggs began filing its suspicious-activity reports about the Saudi accounts after examiners from the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) -- the Treasury Department unit that oversees banks -- began to crack down a year ago on what it considered to be the bank's weak procedures for catching money laundering. Riggs filed about a dozen SARs in the spring of 2003, and 20 more after November when Riggs began an audit of past Saudi transactions.
Because of its questions about the rigor of the bank's supervision, the OCC recently designated Riggs a "troubled institution," which gives the unit sweeping powers to order changes that could include replacing senior executives.

...

FBI scrutiny of Riggs's international business began soon after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and widened to include parallel probes by the OCC and Riggs itself after a Newsweek report in November 2002 suggesting that the Saudi ambassador's wife, Princess Haifa al-Faisal , may have used a Riggs account to donate money to a charity that then gave some of it to the Sept. 11 terrorists. In the course of the inquiries, bank and federal investigators found tens of millions of dollars in questionable transactions that had not previously been reported by Riggs, as the law requires. That led to the flurry of suspicious-activity reports filed by the bank last November.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20942-2004Apr17_2.html

Riggs Bank Is Sued
Over 9/11 Attacks
By GLENN R. SIMPSON
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 13, 2004; Page B3

WASHINGTON -- A lawsuit was filed on behalf of victims of the Sept. 11 attacks and their families against Riggs Bank for allegedly contributing to the disaster through negligence, as both the owner and the leaseholder of the World Trade Center site took aim at Saudi Arabia's leaders, its banks and its charities in their own legal complaints.

The boldest filing was the suit, which seeks class-action status, against Riggs National Corp. and its banking unit. "Riggs' constant failure to comply with banking oversight laws resulted in funds being forwarded from high risk Saudi Embassy accounts at Riggs Bank to at least two September 11 hijackers," the suit, drafted by the torts firm Motley Rice of Mount Pleasant, S.C., alleges.

Both Riggs and the Saudis had no comment.

The bank has been under intense scrutiny since investigators discovered a possible money trail from Princess Haifa al Faisal, wife of the Saudi ambassador, to two Sept. 11 hijackers. Subsequently, regulators found that the bank had overlooked tens of millions of dollars in suspicious cash transactions by Saudi diplomats. The controversies crippled Riggs, which is being sold by its controlling stockholders, the billionaire Allbritton family, to PNC Financial Services Group Inc., of Pittsburgh.

more
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Haifa+riggs+bank
bottom link Cached

[Carl Brennan]

41. Kick

[RBHam]

13. i'm in...

i've always been, ever since i was 15 years old and my english teacher spent a section on the assassination and taught us how to think critically. on an old projector he showed us the magruder film, and he showed the specter's magic bullett theory picture. i remember laughing ouy loud about that...

conspiracy theories MY ASS. How about conspiracy fact.

[LisaLynne]

14. I'd be interested in a group like that! nt

[H2O Man]

15. Minstrel Boy:

Would you consider the Plame threads/case part of this?

[Minstrel Boy]

17. I think so. Aspects, certainly.

As the Plame threads demonstrated, there is a significant parapolitical dimension to the story.

[Eloriel]

18. It could also be a good place to "organize" all our research

Right now, many of us have boatloads of links -- and maybe others, like me, hope to "someday" go through those links and sort it all out and get it more organized and cohesive. Right now I have "Bush-Nazi" files (collections of links, primarily) organized by decade plus a few others like "Fascism - Definitions." I post a lot of these links for people when Bush/Hitler discussions arise, but it would be terrific if we could have a central place where we could point them for more organized info.

IOW: count me in. :D

[starroute]

19. I'm in

It seems like most of us have already been meeting on scattered threads for a couple of years now. Might as well legitimize the relationship.

I'm currently particularly interested in people I've been labeling in my files as "Dark Actors." The ones who may not be closely tied to any specific conspiracy or covert group but who slide in and out of history, always in one dubious context or another. Operation Phoenix, Iran-Contra, "the Enterprise." I'd hope that would have a place in your group as well.

[Minstrel Boy]

22. brilliant idea

You know it: this isn't a faceless "THEM" we're talking about. We know many of the identities of these dark actors and "people of interest," and their names repeat through much of the forbidden history of the National Security State.

I think of the words of Paranoid Larry, in his song about the Bay of Pigs and the Kennedy assassination, "Two Boats in the Night":

That's when they tried to take over,
But he didn't die in vain.
Since he stood up we know some of their names.

[robertpaulsen]

21. Kick for an idea worthy of respectful consideration.

:kick:

If a forum could be created where the "tinfoil nation" can participate in an environment respectful of varying opinions, I would be grateful. I'm not denying anyone's right to disagree, but I just got sick of participating in a currently archived forum where debunking seemed rooted primarily in put-downs and derision rather than serious and thoughtful rebuttal. I wasn't even on the receiving end of such treatment, but I got sick of seeing it happen to other posters I respect.

So I would definitely be interested in a Parapolitics forum, free from insulting disruptors.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. Okay, we have enough people. How's this for a mission statement:

How about something like this:

The group will be a forum for the discussion of political power gained and maintained by subterfuge, secrecy, violence and deceit, which is hidden from the general public. The purpose of the group, a vivisection of the "Octopus."

Topics will include, but are not limited to, assassinations, black ops, false flags, CIA drug trafficking and money laundering, mind control, 9/11 and electoral theft.

Dialogue and constructive, respectful disagreement while working within the Deep Politics model will be welcome. "Debunking" and ridiculing posts will be considered disruptive.

[LisaLynne]

24. Perfect, as far as I'm concerned.

I especially like the last line about ridiculing. I have no problem with people pointing out flaws in my research or logic (that will be one of the things I'll be looking for in posting), but we can do that without name-calling and being demeaning.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. Constructive disagreement aids intellectual rigour.

All I want is a place where we don't spend our energies defending ourselves against those who call us crazy tinfoilers.

cue the West Side Story soundtrack:

There's a place for us
Somewhere a place for us
Peace and quiet and open air
Wait for us
Somewhere

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[H2O Man]

27. I have only one concern .....

and it's not that people are going to hurt my feelings if they disagree with me .... but "debunking" literally means to expose a sham or a false story. We've had a few of those, even in recent months, and so I'm not clear why debunking would be considered a bad thing.

Just as an example, if a person claims that they have positive prook that Oswald shot JFK, is it offensive to debunk that? Or suppose there was a person who was clearly lying, and said they were an attorney who's mother had been a CIA agent before the CIA was formed: could we question that?

I have no problem with people questioning what I post. If they wat to debunk it, great. I am not all-knowing, and enjoy a good give-and-take with those who are capable.

Is it wrong to even ask these questions?

[Minstrel Boy]

28. How about calling them "deniers" instead of "debunkers"?

I think we should all assume the foundation that Oswald was not a lonegunman. If we can start there, then I think whatever disagreements follow are more likely to be congenial, thoughtful and helpful.

[starroute]

30. There's a lot of deliberate disinformation out there

And being an effective conspiracy researcher means being more than a bit of a skeptic.

(Heck, there are certain topics, like the Oklahoma City bombing, which are still so murky that I'm skeptical about almost any theory, just on general principles.)

But I think there's a simple smell test involved, and we can all tell the difference between "Why do you think that?" and "You're nuts!"

[H2O Man]

31. I'm probably the only one ....

...but I just think that using the correct word is important. People can deny the truth or a lie; one can only debunk a falsehood. In fact, our goal would be to debunk the numerous lies of the federal government. But I promise to behave. Perhaps we can all use good judgement, and simply not talk to those we may not get along with.

[Minstrel Boy]

33. using the proper language is important

I tried to suggest that by placing "debunking" in quotation marks. But calling it denying is more accurate.

[Stephanie]

25. I don't want to join any group

that would have me for a member. :)

[BeHereNow]

29. Two Words:

Anthony Sutton.

Splendid idea, Minstral Boy!
I am weary of the attacks by the DU cynic society.
I would relish such a forum.
BHN

[Minstrel Boy]

32. Here's a slightly revised mission statement,

and thanks for the imput:

The group will be a forum for the discussion of political power gained and maintained by subterfuge, secrecy, violence and deceit, which is hidden from the general public. The purpose of the group, a vivisection of the "Octopus."

Topics will include, but are not limited to, assassinations, black ops, false flags, CIA drug trafficking and money laundering, mind control, 9/11 and electoral theft.

Dialogue and constructive, respectful disagreement while working within the Deep Politics model will be welcome. Deniers and dismissive, ridiculing posts will be considered disruptive.

Members of the group should assume the baseline that Oswald was not a lonegunman. This should help keep whatever disagreements follow congenial, thoughtful and constructive.

[H2O Man]

34. I like it.

I'll go a step further on Oswald: he did not shoot a rifle on 11-22-63.

[Minstrel Boy]

35. I posted the request for the group in the admin forum. n/t

[LisaLynne]

37. Have we heard back about the group yet?

I'm all excited about it! :)

[Minstrel Boy]

38. Looks like we're rejected.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x25092

I'm afraid "tinfoilers" will always be regarded as an embarrassment to DU. No matter how often we're right.

:-(

[LisaLynne]

39. Aw! Darn it.

Do you want to pursue changing the mission statement to something that Skinner might feel was acceptable? We might have to compromise on the "debunking" issue. Honestly, I understand the Admin's concern, but at the same time, I would think that general posters would like to have us off some place where we could discuss our stuff and if they don't want to read about it, they don't have to.

[Minstrel Boy]

40. I'll see if anything can be done.

And I agree, I thought Admin would jump at the chance to give us our own musty attic where we wouldn't embarrass the gentle folk. :)

[Minstrel Boy]

42. Final word: Skinner won't approve it. n/t

[robertpaulsen]

43. Thanks for the valiant effort, Minstrel Boy.

I don't think you were asking for too much. As you pointed out, the same rules of personal attacks apply to all forums, why not this one? I guess anything that smells of tinfoil will be archived to the DU dustbin, regardless of legitimacy.

But I applaud your attempt! :) :tinfoilhat:

[Minstrel Boy]

44. Thanks, appreciate it.

The way I see it, if they won't give us a group of our own, I guess we'll just make GD our own. Hope we don't embarrass too many delicate sensibilities with our kooky truth-telling. :)

[H2O Man]

45. I will withdraw

the Plame Thread suggestion from your proposed forum. Perhaps the previous divorce proceedings made people hesitant to the suggestion of a reunion. If that is helpful, Minstrel Boy, perhaps you will get your spot.

That does not change the singing and swinging business we discussed yesterday. Maybe some Bob Dylan ballads.

[Minstrel Boy]

46. I'm sure that wouldn't make a difference,

but thank you for the offer.

Admin simply isn't comfortable with the general subject matter. I guess we should be grateful that our threads aren't deleted outright. Though since the fate of the 9/11 forum is undecided, and that has recently served as the Admin's dumping ground for a number of the threads regardless of whether or not they're on topic, who knows for how long?

[Me.]

51. Well, I'm Truly Sorry About This

And it comes at a time when so much is going on and needs to be discussed:

We Have Porter Goss wreaking havoc at the CIA. We have dismissed agents who have supposedly escaped the lair with papers determental to the admin. Sleeza is going to be in charge of our foreign policy, vile Hatfield is taking her place and pukes like Shays are getting up on CNN saying, "Well we don't really know that he has done anything wrong". Delay will keep power even if he is indicted and Pat Buchanan says the admin is unable to contain the Bulldog. When will Larry Franklin be indicted? Ever? Will the Israeli's go through with their and the neo-con's plan to attack Iran? So many questions needing to be delved into...And this is just the beginning of the gruesome tale...

[Minstrel Boy]

52. They can still be topics of discussion

we just won't have a group in which to collect them.

But thanks, I share your regrets.

[Me.]

61. That Would Be The Vile Hadley

What's in a name? Much, much, much...

[seemslikeadream]

47. Used to do rather well in GD Minstrel San

before the deluge. Maybe we can slow the roll and have some good discussions again.



Before The Deluge

Some of them were dreamers
And some of them were fools
Who were making plans and thinking of the future
With the energy of the innocent
They were gathering the tools
They would need to make their journey back to nature
While the sand slipped through the opening
And their hands reached for the golden ring
With their hearts they turned to each other's heart for refuge
In the troubled years that came before the deluge

Some of them knew pleasure
And some of them knew pain
And for some of them it was only the moment that mattered
And on the brave and crazy wings of youth
They went flying around in the rain
And their feathers, once so fine, grew torn and tattered
And in the end they traded their tired wings
For the resignation that living brings
And exchanged love's bright and fragile glow
For the glitter and the rouge
And in a moment they were swept before the deluge

Now let the music keep our spirits high
And let the buildings keep our children dry
Let creation reveal it's secrets by and by
By and by--
When the light that's lost within us reaches the sky

Some of them were angry
At the way the earth was abused
By the men who learned how to forge her beauty into power
And they struggled to protect her from them
Only to be confused
By the magnitude of the fury in the final hour
And when the sand was gone and the time arrived
In the naked dawn only a few survived
And in attempts to understand a thing so simple and so huge
Believed that they were meant to live after the deluge

Now let the music keep our spirits high
And let the buildings keep our children dry
Let creation reveal it's secrets by and by
By and by--
When the light that's lost within us reaches the sky

--Jackson Browne


remember this?

The DU 9/11 reading room
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1836172#1847352

The crimes hidden behind "national security" must be prosecuted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1523760

TERROR ALERT: If you don’t think the BFEE is capable of bombing our own -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1668534

Anti Conspiracy Ostriches - how do you ignore MKULTRA?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=636309

"From PSYOP to Mindwar" - be afraid
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=785713

Why do people say such TERRIBLE things about the Bush Family?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2309425

[robertpaulsen]

53. Thanks seemslikeadream!

These are some good-looking threads that I didn't have bookmarked. Now I do! If we can't have our own forum, sharing the threads that matter sure does compensate.

Here's some other gems:

OSWALD was CIA (OFFICIAL)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2364632

"Jonestown, the CIA and mind control"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1917237

!! Whaaaa!! 4/4/01 Fox show of government plot to hijacked planes ....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1388180

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=199853

DRAFT Timeline -- (must read) Shows how Bush plans June 15, 2005 LOTTERY
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1263938

Peak Oil - Okay, I'm terrified.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1196017

[seemslikeadream]

55. Thanks to you robertpaulsen!

I didn't have any of those except

It's time for another Bush/Nazis thread

That's a classic, bobthedrummer at his finest.


Here's a couple more

Bush Crime Family S.O.P. — Use a Patsy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=273176

Aerial mind control (Commando Solo) and Rumsfeld's "Message to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1663784

bin Laden's money flow leads back to Midland, Texas
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=610051

[robertpaulsen]

60. Thanks, didn't have those! Here's more threads to share.

I love spreading good threads around!

DOJ Asked FBI Translator To Change Pre 9-11 Intercepts
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=442067

Bush/Cheney White House "Busted" Over Sept 11th Claims
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2430435

Speculation: Joint US-Israeli invasion of Syria in the Fall?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1452243


One I did:
Poll question: Do you think RFK was murdered as part of a conspiracy?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1794714

And one you did I liked, despite disruptions:
Wellstone Was Murdered"American Assassination," two professors explain how
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2332485


Hey seemslikeadream, I was wondering if you have any RFK, MLK or Iran/contra threads. Do you have anything on peak oil or PROMIS?

[seemslikeadream]

63. I will look for peak oil or PROMIS RFK, MLK or Iran/contra threads

robertpaulsen as soon as we get that search back!

I've got this one

A Short History of Saddam-Bush-Noriega Business
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1213525

This was one of my favorites, just for fun!

Bush's Erratic Behavior Worries White House Aides
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=602189

[seemslikeadream]

66. Here's a few more that look good

BFEE Treasure Trove
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=696051#731804

The Bush Family: Who's the worst?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=739376


Case Closed- Conspiracy: The Dallas Doctors vs. JFK’s Autopsy Photographs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=771514

Paedophilic Repugs, rape, whoring, attempted murder and the BFEE,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=790775

Rumsfeld, Iran/Contra, Iraqgate, shaking hands with Saddam
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=905194

The Iran Hostage Crisis of 1980.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=944281

BFEE Factbook: GW Bush, James R Bath & House of bin Laden
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=991298

FBI intensively reviewing several high-profile neocons going back 30 years
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2294390

Spy Probe Scans Neocon-Israeli Ties/IPS--(going back 30 years!)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2294498

Spy Probe Scans Neo Con-Israel Ties PROMIS - INSLAW,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2292904

Call to Octafish: We need massive linkage on BCCI and IranContra.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2118878

Indira Singh/PTech deep moles in FAA help accomplish 9/11! WTF??
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2203166

BUSH, Masons, 911 & The Knights Templar
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1916238

CSPAN Radio to air RFK interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2722606

now bookmark this thread

[Carl Brennan]

48. Suggesting a quote for the Parapolitics topic posthumously or

otherwise.

Accepting the view that all history is conspiracy or all history as drift (no power elite) is to relax from seeking out facts about power and the ways of the powerful--
C. Wright Mills, "The Power Elite".

[George_S]

49. I'm convinced we are reliving the Progressive Era...

When "philanthropists" and a few intellectuals nearly took over the government before the depression and Hitler inadvertently slowed it down.

They were nearly able to completely bypass the checks and balances of the Constitution and many of their eugenic laws are still on the books and there are new ones going on the books now.

"War Against the Weak" lays out how they went about it. No book since "Helter Skelter : The True Story Of The Manson Murders" has has as profound effect on me, and, ironically, Helter Skelter is also about mind control and the resulting brutality.

What I'm unable to resolve so far is why the Right is against abortion.

Anyone else interested in this?

[seemslikeadream]

50. wipe away the reproductive capability of the weak and inferior.

War Against the Weak

How American corporate philanthropies launched a national campaign of ethnic cleansing in the United States, helped found and fund the Nazi eugenics of Hitler and Mengele — and then created the modern movement of "human genetics."

In the first three decades of the 20th Century, American corporate philanthropy combined with prestigious academic fraud to create the pseudoscience eugenics that institutionalized race politics as national policy. The goal: create a superior, white, Nordic race and obliterate the viability of everyone else.
How? By identifying so-called "defective" family trees and subjecting them to legislated segregation and sterilization programs. The victims: poor people, brown-haired white people, African Americans, immigrants, Indians, Eastern European Jews, the infirm and really anyone classified outside the superior genetic lines drawn up by American raceologists. The main culprits were the Carnegie Institution, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Harriman railroad fortune, in league with America's most respected scientists hailing from such prestigious universities as Harvard, Yale and Princeton, operating out of a complex at Cold Spring Harbor on Long Island. The eugenic network worked in tandem with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the State Department and numerous state governmental bodies and legislatures throughout the country, and even the U.S. Supreme Court. They were all bent on breeding a eugenically superior race, just as agronomists would breed better strains of corn. The plan was to wipe away the reproductive capability of the weak and inferior.

Ultimately, 60,000 Americans were coercively sterilized — legally and extra-legally. Many never discovered the truth until decades later. Those who actively supported eugenics include America's most progressive figures: Woodrow Wilson, Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Holmes.

American eugenic crusades proliferated into a worldwide campaign, and in the 1920s came to the attention of Adolf Hitler. Under the Nazis, American eugenic principles were applied without restraint, careening out of control into the Reich's infamous genocide. During the pre-War years, American eugenicists openly supported Germany's program. The Rockefeller Foundation financed the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and the work of its central racial scientists. Once WWII began, Nazi eugenics turned from mass sterilization and euthanasia to genocidal murder. One of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute doctors in the program financed by the Rockefeller Foundation was Josef Mengele who continued his research in Auschwitz, making daily eugenic reports on twins. After the world recoiled from Nazi atrocities, the American eugenics movement — its institutions and leading scientists — renamed and regrouped under the banner of an enlightened science called human genetics.
more
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

[George_S]

58. That's the one.

Though I think the new racism works more along the lines of class rather than race. The race part will probably come later.

[Carl Brennan]

62. "The Wrath of Khan ....er, Con". A flash of the

Star Trek episode.

[seemslikeadream]

64. "Jonestown, the CIA and mind control" how about this George_S?

from Minstrel Boy
"Jonestown, the CIA and mind control"


Seeing the names of Jim Jones, Moon, Falwell and others in a thread reminded me, there's another connection between many of the organizations enslaving American minds: a client relationship to the National Security State.

For instance, in 1985, The Portland Oregonian found the Bhagwan Rajneesh movement was linked to opium trafficking, prostitution, money laundering, illegal wiretaps and the stockpiling of guns and biochemical weapons. The paper's 36-part report found the cult had ties to CIA-trained mercenaries in Central America and the Far East, as well as to domestic operatives. http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn116a.htm

In 1987, a Washington-based cult called The Founders was raided by customs agents for alledged involvement in child pornography. The State Department advised them to "terminate further investigation." When they continued, the CIA made contact and admitted the group was a CIA front, but that it had "gone bad." http://davesweb.cnchost.com/pedo6.html

But to Jones:

Jonestown, the CIA and mind control

In 1973, just after the CIA's redirection in the next stage of testing and development of the M.K. ULTRA and related operations, it was decided that religious cults best represented a new and virtually fool-proof operations platform in which to further Mind Control technologies. Several religious "sects and cults" were examined by the Agency for their possible utilization by the CIA in Top Secret studies of Mind Control operations.

In late 1973, under this new focus of the CIA, Deep Cover Operative George Philip Blakey made the initial $650,000 deposit for purchase of what would become known as "The People's Temple" in Guyana, under the management of Reverend Jim Jones. During this period, Jones moved his People's Temple from California to Guyana, where the Agency felt it would be isolated and kept away from public or government scrutiny which might interfere with the operation.

Jones himself was already well known to many in California government. Among other things, he had been the Housing Commissioner of San Francisco. The CIA operations specialists were enthusiastic about the People's Temple operations. Like the abortive UCLA Center for the Study of Violent Behavior, The People's Temple membership was largely Black and impoverished, while the upper management under Jones was all White.

There was also help from within California state government to assist in building up Jones' power base. Among those assisting was Ukiah District Attorney Tim Stone, who was largely responsible for acquiring state mental patients, wards of the state, etc. and turning them over to the People's Temple to act as their Guardian. Many of the same interests in the UCLA Center also displayed interest in the People's Temple operation. Dan Mitrioni was another key player who aided the Agency in its operations base of the People's Temple. Mitrioni was an associate of Jones in the early days of the temple. Mitrioni was a former mid-Western police chief who went to work for the CIA. He was involved in the instruction of torture, brainwashing and public terrorism to government soldiers and security teams in countries such as Bolivia, Uruguay and Brazil for the purposes of establishing and perpetuating the "National Security State".

much more:
http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/mind_control/jjones....


Jonestown massacre + 20: Questions linger
November 18, 1998

SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- Twenty years after the world was shocked by the mass murder-suicide in the supposedly utopian community known as Jonestown, the questions linger: How and why did 913 people die? Some believe answers may lie in more than 5,000 pages of information the U.S. government has kept secret.

"Twenty years later, it would be nice to know what went down," said J. Gordon Melton, founder and director of the Institute for the Study of American Religion.

Over the years, there have been rumors of CIA involvement. Some people believe CIA agents were posing as members of the Peoples Temple cult to gather information; others suggest the agency was conducting a mind-control experiment.

In 1980, the House Select Committee on Intelligence determined that the CIA had no advance knowledge of the mass murder-suicide. The year before, the House Foreign Affairs Committee had concluded that cult leader Jim Jones "suffered extreme paranoia." The committee -- now known as international relations -- released a 782-page report, but kept more than 5,000 other pages secret.

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9811/18/jonestown.anniv.01 /


What the media won't tell you about Jonestown

Despite having few sources for known funds, Jones found enough money to travel with his wife and family to Brazil in 1961. Coincidentally, longtime friend Dan Mitrione was there as well, having advanced quickly in the IPA (the International Police Academy, a CIA front for training counterinsurgency and torture techniques). Mitrione had honed his skills at torture and assassination by practicing on kidnapped beggars. He himself was later kidnapped and murdered by guerrillas in Uruguay, an incident which became the basis of the Costa Gavras film State of Siege. Jones made regular trips to Belo Horizonte, site of CIA headquarters in Brazil -- and Mitrione's town of residence.

Apparently, this wasn't the only curious intelligence link to Jones. He told some of his neighbors that he was involved in the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence. The U.S. embassy provided Jones with transportation, groceries, and a large home. Considering his dear friendship to Mitrione and the funding of "ministries" in Latin America by the CIA, the theory that Jones was a U.S. intelligence asset makes quite a bit of sense.

In any case, according to his neighbor, Jones "lived like a rich man." Soon after the JFK assassination, Jones returned to the states with $10,000. In 1965, he formed the first People's Temple in Ukiah, California, and set up Happy Havens Rest Home. Without trained personnel or proper licensing, Jones' camp drew in prisoners, the elderly, people from mental institutions, and 150 foster children, many of whom were transferred by court order. Among those who contacted him: "missionaries" from World Vision (an international evangelical order that often fronts for the CIA); the local chapter head to the John Birch Society; and leaders of the Republican party, for whom his "church" members conducted voter organization and fund-raising activities for the Dick Nixon '68 campaign. Jones' advisors included a mercenary from UNITA, the CIA-backed Angola army. Also jumping on board was the Layton family, whose patriarch, U.C.-Berkeley chemist Dr. Laurence Laird Layton, had worked on the Manhattan Project. Dr. Layton was also chief of the Army's Chemical Warfare Division in the early 1950's. (Mrs. Layton was the daughter of Hugo Phillips, a German banker/stockbroker who became rich representing Siemans & Halske and I.G. Farben, two notorious Nazi Holocaust profiteers.)

...

Congressman Leo Ryan visited Jonestown on November 18, 1978 to investigate allegations of human rights abuses. Congressman Ryan, a noted CIA critic, had authored the Hughes-Ryan Amendment, which would have required the CIA to disclose to Congress -- in advance -- details of all covert operations. The State department offered Ryan no answers or assistance, despite numerous inquiries. He arrived with U.S. embassy official Richard Dwyer, as well as some journalists. Among the reporters was Tim Reiterman, who had covered the Patty Hearst story for the San Francisco Examiner.... At the airstrip, Leo Ryan soon became the first congressman to die in the line of duty, along with four reporters. (The Hughes-Ryan Amendment was killed in Congress soon afterwards.)
http://www.whale.to/b/jonestown1.html

The Jonestown Jenocide

As the massacre unfolded, Jones is tape recorded as yelling, "Get Dwyer out of here!" Jim Dwyer was later found at the airstrip, methodically washing his hands.

In 1968, Dwyer was listed in the publication entitled, "Who's Who in the CIA". When asked if the allegation was true, he replied, "No comment."

Of course, Dwyer isn't the only link to CIA in Guyana. Besides those previously mentioned, John Burke, the U.S. ambassador, and Richard McCoy, another official, were both heavily involved with the intelligence community. The U.S. Embassy in Georgetown also housed the Georgetown CIA station. At the time, Guyana had a socialist government, and thus was a likely target for covert operations. Dan Webber, sent to Guyana after the massacre, was CIA as well. The "official" attorney for the survivors, Joseph Blatchford, was involved in a scandal involving CIA infiltration of the Peace Corps.

Then there is the missing money that just "disappeared" after the mass death. Conservative estimates place the amount at $26 million. Others place it at $2 billion. Judging the history of bank loot understatements, the second figure is likely closer to the truth. At the time, a major international money laundering operation was headquartered in Italy involving the Vatican and a mysterious fascist quasi-Masonic lodge known as the P-2. (The operation probably led to the murder of Pope John Paul I, but that's another conspiracy.) The P-2 had a major operation located in nearby Panama, and had numerous CIA links themselves. All this was disturbingly echoed in the S & L swindle of the eighties, which had CIA and Mafia prints all over the place.
http://www.whale.to/b/jones2.html


"Jonestown, the CIA and mind control"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1917237

[Starlight]

54. And it should be "private" - no freepers allowed. n/t

[RevolutionaryActs]

56. Motion 'Kerryed'

:tinfoilhat:

[Domitan]

57. If it's still on, I support this.

Hope that admin will allow this after all.

[Minstrel Boy]

59. Appreciate it, but this idea has died a death.

It's like Paranoid Larry says:

If ya mention things that most folks would rather avoid,
They'll call ya paranoid.