Feminists - what should we do about the sex industry?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

I'm a man. I believe in equal rights for women, and I believe women should be paid the same as men, I object to sexual exploitation of women and identifying them as sex objects. I am pro-choice, and I believe that women utimately must have control over their bodies.

I'm kind of a social libertarian, I would aruge that prostitution should be legal and that pornography is a form of free speech. Theoretically at least. But I can't say that I feel comfortable with the idea of a publically traded prostitution corporation, and I've heard nothing but horror stories about the pornography industry in general.

I'm straight, and I have to say that the overt sexuality makes me aroused, turns me on, and sometimes it's pretty damn hard to ignore it. Everywhere you look is advertizements of young sexy half-naked women, every channel on television seems to be non stop sex. The thread about the "hunting naked women" game offended me, but there certainly was a tittilation factor that's hard to ignore.

The fact is I feel sexy when I have some kind of power over a women, like being taller or richer or smarter than her. I know that almost all of my female friends are admittedly attracted to men who are taller, richer, and older than they are - socially powerful. But that power imbalance can easily lead to exploitation, especially when there is money or business involved.

I have a really bad feeling about the merger between open sexual attitudes and corporate capitalism. I also find it distracting and demoralizing to have sexual fantasies triggered by Britney Spears advertizing Coke. I feel like my sex drive is being hijacked by corporations using sophisticated technology to sell me products. What do you think?

[jedicord]

1. 2 Things

Old joke: Difference between a Feminist and a Woman's Libber is: A WL wishes she had a penis and a Feminist collects them. Guess which one I am?

To answer your question, even though lots of your post creeped me out, if you truly believe in a woman's right to control over their own bodies, then you wouldn't have a problem with the sex industry as long as the woman's participation is voluntary. Women can make good money at a strip club, so more power to them.

My objection is when a woman is coerced into pornography against her will.

As for the advertising, frankly I think it's moronic, but sex sells. So I can either not watch or laugh, depending on my mood.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. 100 views and one response

this isn't looking too good.

Sure, women have control over their own bodies, and if they want to work in the sex industry, that's none of my business. I have a number of friends that have worked in the sex industry, both men and women.

But you'd have to be blind to not see that a whole lot of exploitation is going on. With the way corporate capitalism is operating around the globe, how much longer until we have sex-industry sweatshops here in the US?

I would think that the majority of people doing pornography are doing it voluntarily, but when your choice is a minimum wage dead end job or a decent salary doing sex work, it seems a little different.

The facts are that wages are being pushed down in the US, on purpose, by outsourcing and globalization and government actions. The sex economy works on supply and demand just like anything else. This limits the opportunities that a lot of women have to make money, and at the same time the sex industry is becoming more mainstream.

Right now a woman doing sex work in the US can make good money, but pretty soon supply and demand will drive down their wages, and it can start to get a lot more exploitive than it already is.

Didn't mean to creep you out.

[Iris]

18. I doubt working in the sex industry gets anyone a "salary"

It gets you paid per film or act or whatever, but I doubt you get sick days, personal days, vacation days or insurance.

And if your "hoo hoo" dries up or you become disabled or disfigured, I'm sure you are cut off. No medical or family leave.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

23. Worse than that

The last statistic I heard was women make on average $500 per film. Most will do it for a year or two. The vast majority of women do NOT make lots of money in pornography.

There is an adult industry trade publication that talks about how lucrative stripping is for women, and lots of nice stories about how these dancers are working their way through college. Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. Don't forget about the pimping and the drugs either, that's a BIG part of the industry.

Most women leave the sex industry no richer than they were before.

[Iris]

36. "dancing her way through college"

Sounds like a good idea until you start your first job and run into some of your former "clients".

[Terwilliger]

28. actually, it is a business

there are offices, corporations, water coolers, the works.

May not be as "legitimate" as the other industries but it's a major business.

As for how the actors/actresses are treated...there's been a lot of reform there over the years as well. If you made the practice more legit, more concerns of the workers could be addressed. Keeping everything under the counter keeps people in a bad situation that they probably don't have the power to change.

[aquart]

31. Probably. But you don't actually know, do you?

So maybe what's needed is a union?

[JohnKleeb]

32. A union would be good

Unions do a lot of good.

[arcos]

46. It can be VERY profitable

from what I've heard. Don't know anyone personally, but I've heard friends of friends of friends who can make $1000 per week or so. I'm talking about gay porn though, don't know if the same applies to straight porn.

[Terwilliger]

8. ...

even though lots of your post creeped me out

I had the same feeling :shrug:

[amazona]

2. I think maybe turn off your TV?

The porn industry can be a way to make money even if you don't have such a great education or background. The money isn't as good as it once was, not by a long shot, but it is more socially acceptable, so while strippers are not making the huge paydays they did 10 or 15 or more years ago, they are not ostracized by society and it is no longer strictly a job held by drug addicts still presentable enough not to have to walk the streets. Some of the horror stories you heard...how long ago did you hear them? Even housewives are getting into the act for a few extra bucks...Over Forty and Over Fifty magazines do OK, and plenty of just regular women are getting into opening their own websites for a few extra bucks.

I don't see how a corporation can hijack your sex drive. Get a video recorder and edit out all the commercials or get a TIVO if you don't like Britney. Don't go to strip clubs. Turn off radio stations that advertise that sort of thing. Don't click on spam emails or visit porn websites. I don't see where you have to participate if you don't want to.

You know, there is nothing Britney Spears could have done back home in Kenwood, Louisiana that would have ever made her the fortune she has made by being a belly button pop star. Besides, I thought she represented Pepsi, not Coke? I don't have a problem with a publically traded porn company although I don't think sin stocks are necessarily the safest. Playboy, for example is publically traded (NYSE: PLA) although it has certainly had its ups and downs over the years. I'm not saying invest in Playboy -- I don't think they are especially well run -- but if some beautiful young girls can make some nice money posing, it beats going into student loan hell.

I believe a woman's body is her own, to use as she pleases, and if she wants to sell her belly button for $40 million...well...who is to say I would not have done the same given the opportunity?

Finally, sex play and sexual relationships can and do involve power issues, and, for better or for worse, I think you are unlikely to be able to change your orientation if that's what you're into. If you're afraid that you might be interested in S/M -- can't quite tell if that's what you're hinting at -- well, you probably are. But there are lots of other places to explore that safely and get away from the negative programming you are likely to find in the popular media.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. You can't avoid sexual advertizing

I don't even own a television, I don't read spam, I participate in the economy as little as possible. I can't walk down the street in NYC without seeing sexual advertizments everywhere. I can't go buy a newspaper without seeing racks full of magazines.

Look, I like looking at women, a lot. I don't have a problem with sex, nor SM, I guess I have a problem with the commercialization. I'm bringing up the power issue because that's where the economic aspect comes in - a rich company has a lot of power over working class women and men.

The facts are the sex industry is doing everything in it's power to lower the wages of sex workers, and it will not be long until prostitution is a minimum wage job. Add the fact that the education system is being dismantled, and what kind of future is that going to bring?

I worked for a adult website once, so I've seen the business aspect of the sex industry up close, and believe me, it ain't pretty. You find that women hunting game disgusting? That's nothing. You dislike women being objectified sexually? That's what the industry is.

Unionization could help, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Coke, Pepsi, whatever.

[JohnKleeb]

4. I dunno

I am a straight guy. I do not have a problem with porn and swimsuit magazines and the like. If the woman wants to express herself like thats cool but if shes being exploited then its wrong I guess. I do look at models and stuff like that yeah and yeah I do act like how some would. I do have enough respect however to keep my fat mouth shut when talking about women with women I know they dont wanna hear you know so and so has a nice ass or that thats guy to guy talk normal for some guys. I could I guess talk about how pretty a woman was to a woman if she didnt mind me. I dont mind if women do the same between themselves I just dont wanna see it or hear it and I think its the same for most women on men and you see men doing it more than women. Its also free speech too.

[ursacorwin]

6. well, i'll bite

i worked in the sex industry for a while, and it opened my eyes to a couple of facts. i'm also a dyke, and sleeping with women as a woman has done a lot to educated me on the matter of the "male gaze."

you're right in the fact that increasing corporatization and commodification of women (the construction as well as the actual subject) is a bad thing. these new death/sex games scare me, and i don't like what i see that passes for soft porn these days- so dark and violent. and i don't doubt there's more of it, than there used to be and on the way.

but you've got to remember, this is the *oldest* "problem" in the world, n'est pas? it's almost impossible to truly assertain: do women have less power than men? always? what is power? sexual power? i think possibly the most revolutionary thought is that of women taking true control over the way they think of their sexuality. when we women look at ourselves, openly and honestly and away from the misogynist constructions, it's amazing what we can see.

porn should be legal, as should naked dancing and prostitution and anything else that isn't coerced or violent by nature. even the violent stuff (adult mutually agreed B&D) is ok. but what needs to change is the way *men* think about women, because it is what men think that our society is organized to care about.

why do you feel sexier when you have power over a woman? think about it- what is inherently sexy about inequality? sure, women get off on this as well, but that's in large part because "sexuality" is a construction given to us by acculturation, and it's a *male* construction. most men don't know the first thing about what a woman's desire really is, how to please her sexually, etc. (i'm not accusing anyone here ;-) )

my point is only that men are not as empowered as they think they are, nor are women so simple as many would believe. there are soooo many ways to escape the simple sexuality trap, it's kind of like waking up from republicanism. women in control of their sexuality scare a lot of men in power, and some women. it's economic and social potential for change are the reason why we have so much of our patriarchal culture. but technology and time are changing that.

we wouldn't even be having this discussion if not for wide spread birth control.

it's more complex, and differently understood, than i think you may believe.

[JohnKleeb]

9. you're right it is more complex than I believe I am very ignorant on this

to be honest
I dont believe in having any kinda of power over a woman I think thats wrong. I think a woman should be free to pursue her own desires and if she wants to model fine so be it if she doesnt thats cool too. Violent stuff just weirds me out personally. I am talking about normal pictures not even nudes I dont know why anyone would have a problem with that. I dont feel better about myself when I have power I never made that my point. My point however is that I think if a person wants to make their living posing nude or fucking people so be it. I think sex is supposed to be a beautiful and natural thing I dont understand bondage and stuff that just is weird. Thanks for your insight. I need to learn more on this issue I am ignorant.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

14. thank you

Your response is exactly what I was hoping for. Oldest problem in the world, I guess I forgot about that :) Look I'm not interested in making anything illegal, please don't get me wrong. I like to think I have a sexually positive attitude, but yes it's the commercialization that worries me.

"Men are not as empowered as they think they are" - exactly what I was trying to say. Look, I am not denying my "male privilege" here - I'm one of the most privileged people in the world. I guess I feel manipulated by corporations who have spent years learning about men's sex drives, and then using technology - television, movies, the internet, everything else, to manipulate me to soften me up for their sales pitch.

I almost think of it as the Taylorization of sex. Just like when the corporations started to study how people worked, then designed factories to reduce the training and education needed to do the jobs, by learning the worker's skills and automating them, I see a trend in the sex industry of the same thing - there is already a lot of money behind computer generated porn - which will put a lot of adult actresses out of work.

When prostitution is legalized, how long until they import women from third world countries to drive down wages - just like an H1B visa?

Anyway, thanks for your response. I left San Francisco a few years ago and I think I miss the perspective that a queer friendly and sexually open city can give you. NYC is not the same. It's certainly more complex than I understand, perhaps DU just isn't the place for this conversation - especially since the Democrats get a lot of money from the sex industry :)

[DagmarK]

29. uh uh, it isn't the OLDEST problem in the world.......

Believe it or not.......the matriarchies were the order of the day.

That's the part of world history that seems to be omitted........ Don't take my word for it.....research it.

[Iris]

33. "hijacked sexuality"

That's an interesting term. I like it. Mostly because it makes me think of a post in DU earlier this week that said all women over 35 are "old". So, if the media is helping to cut a chunk of vibrate, sexually experienced women out of a man's idea of what's sexy, it's successfully taken away a part of his sexuality.

Sometimes I like the idea of the porn/adult entertainment industry and even the ads of scantily clad women because I see it as a way to take that pressure off of regular women who are just trying to live in the world. I read a statement by a woman over 50 who was GLAD to have lost her "sexual allure" because it helped dissipate some of the weird male/female interactions she had in her daily life. I'm turning 36 this year and I'm still waiting for that to happen because, while I'm at my sexual peak and do dearly love sex, there really aren't that many men I run in to on a day to day basis that I would want that activity with (or what even thinking about me in that way!).

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. maybe not

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of men taking in porn/swimsuits magazines/sexy movies might stare at women more and tend to sexualize a "regular woman" more than he usually would.

When you eat junk food like McDonald's, empty calories of sugar and salt, that can have the effect of making you eat more - you're appetite goes into overdrive, but you're not actually getting the nourishment you need. Perhaps the adult industry is the same way?

Maybe not, just my thoughts.

[Iris]

75. I'm thinking the average woman can't measure up

to a naked woman photographed in ways to enhance her beauty. That's not even taking into account air brushing and photo touch ups. Even the models don't look like that in real life.

So, what I'm saying is if men are judging every day women based on these perfected images of women they see in advertisements, then they may overlook a lot of women because they don't measure up.

[stanwyck]

7. not just a feminist issue

sex is used to manipulate women, also. I believe women who want to earn money in the sex industry should have that right. They need to be advised that many are abused, turn to drugs, contract diseases, and run the risk of being murdered. Treat it like other jobs and know the risks. I wouldn't choose to work on an oil rig or in a convenience store at night; but women do. If money is more important than safety, that's her decision.
If we could grow up in this country and not have such bizarre ideas about sex, then we wouldn't have grown men paying big bucks to shoot naked women with paintballs.
Women victims, cringing and being beaten are constant TV viewing. But don't show people making love. That's dirty.
Children constantly see violence, but showing sex as natural and enjoyable is prohibited. It's "dirty"...hence, the nurturing of the titillation and prolonged adolescence.

[Terwilliger]

10. You watch too much TV

if Britney causes you arousal, you need help. Personally, I look at her and see a child, unlike Bob Dole who is a pedophile.

Also, just because women arouse you, you feel the need to be protected from that? Does a gay man have the same argument after seeing a Hanes underwear commercial?

[JohnKleeb]

11. I think shes kinda cute then again shes within my age group

She doesnt cause me arousal. I've seen some girls out there that do and I dont get bothered lol the only thing that bothers me is that many of em wouldnt wanna date me.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. Why the cheap shots against me?

There's obviously a lot more men than just me that think Britney Spears is sexy. She's 21, an adult. What exactly did I say that's creepy?

I think the sex industry is rather sleazy, it exploits women, and it has given us some disgusting things like that "shoot the naked women" game.

I have no problem being aroused by women, I have a problem with being aroused by technology - magazines, television, etc. Surely you see the difference?

[Terwilliger]

19. but you allow yourself to be manipulated

that's very different than what you're suggesting

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. Answer the question

What did I say that was creepy? Why do I need help for finding a beautiful adult women attractive? Are you saying that seeing a magazine cover of a beautiful half naked women doesn't give you a quick sexual shock, depending on your orientation of course?

[Terwilliger]

57. sexual shock?

If I look at a woman and admire her physical beauty, I'm supposed to go into convulsions? Why aren't you able to control your urges? Or, at least, channel them into more constructive pursuits?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. shock was the wrong word, let's try "thrill"

You said I watch too much tv, which is rather silly. If you had read my posts, I don't even have a tv. You said "Why aren't you able to control your urges?" - when did I say that?

Assuming you are a straight man, does it ever bother you to look at a magazine cover, admire "her" beauty, and then realize that you are not looking at a human woman, but a computer simulation of a "woman" that doesn't exist? Have you ever look at porn on the internet and realize you're being aroused by a computer? Ever wonder which corporations are collecting data on your sexual tastes and preferences? Have you ever stopped to think about this at all?

Implying someone is a pedophile is a rather serious charge, it's possibly libel, and I certainly don't appreciate it, especially on a public forum.

Anyway, I'm going to end this with you here, if you want to respond accurately to anything I said, without hit and run namecalling, go ahead...I won't hold my breath.

[sandnsea]

25. The creepy part

"The fact is I feel sexy when I have some kind of power over a women, like being taller or richer or smarter than her."

Maybe there's some further explanation on your part, but this strikes me as creepy. Not that I'm condemning you or anything, maybe you're just being an incredibly honest male.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

34. power issues are part of sex

Sorry, if you are creeped out by that, than you are in denial about heterosexuality, at least.

Most of my female friends will tell you that they find powerful men sexy, whether that means physical strength, money, success or intelligence.

[sandnsea]

45. Gee, always thought that was competent

not powerful. There's a difference between wanting a competent man and wanting a man who wants to have power over you. The latter usually doesn't end up so well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

66. uhh, are you really suggesting women are not attracted to powerful men?

Are you really suggesting that women don't get sexually aroused by rich, powerful, famous men - men that have more social power than they do? What do you think about the reputation of athletes, rock starts, and actors when it comes to women that want to sleep with them? Do you think the saying "power is an aphrodesiac" has no bearing in reality?

I'm not talking about the kind of man a woman might want to marry, I'm talking about men that sexually arouse women.

I can't make any claims about you personally, obviously, but come on, pretending that dynamic doesn't exist is wishful thinking.

[DagmarK]

35. Shoot, SandnSea......a lot of women get turned on by dominance

of many varieties...

There is something in our cultural attitudes that has both men and women a little twisted. And WhoVotes intelligently is questioning the industries that propogate those attitudes. I appreciate his candor and his concern. Immensely. Wouldn't call it creepy at all.

What IS creepy are guys who deny that there is even a problem.......where do ya start to get that turned around?

[sandnsea]

47. Uh, I think I agreed with you

He just seemed a little confused about what part of his post was creepy. From my perspective, that was it. Maybe others saw something different which is fine. I was just saying I think most women would be a bit concerned about a man who gets turned on sexually because he has power over them. I also tried to make sure he knew I wasn't making a sweeping condemnation or anything, with the comment that perhaps he is just incredibly honest (which is a good thing).

And sure, people have all kinds of sexual relationships and it's their business. But he asked. (not me, maybe I shouldn't have intruded)

[TLM]

12. Well first of all I take issue with the whole idea of exploitation...

We act as if sexual exploitation is so one-sided.

Who is being exploited? The woman who is shaking her ass in a strip club for 1000 bucks a week or the guy who is getting his wallet emptied to watch?

If a woman uses her sexuality to get money from a man, or a woman for that matter, who is being exploited?

Whose physical and emotional health and well-being is more exploited... a stripper, a porn star, a soldier or a janitor?

There are a lot of jobs that exploit your body in a lot of ways, and most of them pay a lot less than stripping or being in porn.

The whole exploitation argument is predicated on the idea that women are still stupid helpless bimbos that are unable to make decisions for themselves so they need someone to step in and protect them from making the "wrong" choice.

[Terwilliger]

13. OMFG...you're kidding right?

or the guy who is getting his wallet emptied to watch?

Now that's the blame of the stripper?!?! SHEESH! hahaha

[TLM]

51. Are you following me around now

to rant and whine in the threads I post? May be time to put you on ignore…


My point was not to blame anybody, but rather to point out that exploitation is a two way street in the sex industry, and that there are a lot of forms of exploitation that are far worse, yet we're OK with those.

Why is it the sex that gets the hackles up and why is it that on this issue some feminists hold a view that is predicated on assumptions that run contrary to what they claim to believe in?

[jonnyblitz]

67. I agree....is it men who are exploiting Chippendale dancers?!?!

Go to a club with male strippers if you want to see a bunching of shreiking, hooting, catcalling women and tell me how exploited women are....If everything is between CONSENTING adults I don't see the problem...

[sandnsea]

15. Life would be no fun without a tight male ass

Too old to engage but not too old to keep looking!!! The saddest day of my life was when I looked at a father and son and realized I was of the age to be checking out the old guy instead of the stunning young hunk.

Women like looking too, whether at a construction site, on TV or in a magazine. We may not get the immediate sexual turn on that men get, but we still love to look!

I have no real opinion on the sex industry, to each his own as long as nobody is being physically abused.

[JohnKleeb]

16. agreed

I completely agree on the sex industry with you.

[Terwilliger]

21. sandnsea

We may not get the immediate sexual turn on that men get, but we still love to look!

Have you thought about getting some sex-drive enhancers? ;-) Or...just emulate nsma!

[TLM]

52. I cheer your honesty...

and it is sad that were a guy to say what you just said about a woman... he'd be branded a sexist pig.

[xchrom]

20. legalization of prostitution

is my big thing in this arena -- that alone would clean up a lot exploitation and open the doors to unionization{another thing i'm for}. so much of what your talkiing about can ''cleaned up'' with a little sunshine and the american public growing up.
people working in the sex industry isn't my problem -- it's the laws and attitudes that keeps everything out of sight.
a little healthy sunshine please -- it's good for more than just plants.

[DagmarK]

22. Hi WhoVotes...didn't want to view and run.....so.....

(I think that view count thing might cause some folks to feel bad about their posts; I envision MANY posts by me that won't get replies! Ah, it will toughen me up I guess).

Anyways.......I read through this thread.....and it's really hard to comment on it. There are sooooo many issues involved in what you are speaking of (as is indicated in the things brought up in the thread).

That paintball game definitely makes me cringe...it's just so violent and misogynistic.

And my feeling about the sex industry is.....if a gal can get some guy to pay a bunch of money to watch her do something that has ZERO to do with her sexuality and pleasure and is only designed to arouse the guy...well.....who is exploiting whom? But.....I don't think the sex industry is so "acceptable" that a gal can do that for a few years and expect to get a job at a law firm or some other reputable, monied industry.

Honestly, the issue I am most concerned with is MISOGYNY within our culture.....not just from the corps or the sex industry or TV. It pervades our attitudes across the board.

and because you are thinking about such things.......I would strongly encourage you to join the National Organization for Women. I am not kidding. The solution comes down to each person searching their conscience and making a conscious decision to TRY to see things differently.

(and as far as getting aroused about stuff that you think is taboo or bad........hell.......welcome to America......land founded by repressed puritans. No kidding....we think we are sooooooo liberal in our sexual attitudes, but we are really carrying our puritanical roots with us. So.....as is human nature, repression naturally turns into a little twist in our brain chemistry as to sexual arousal.

BUT.....really looking at and working for the women's movement...actually takes the lid off the puritanical conditioning ... and who knows? Maybe a very special door will open within you that will make you a spectacular ally to a very special woman. Hope this makes sense.....but I remember you were talking about wanting to find a great woman....and maybe a little more exploration into the woman's psyche and cause might just help you to attract a pretty great lady. Not that this is the goal.....but as with destiny, you never know. I personally think that we have special mates out there waiting for us to do whatever work we need to do on ourselves. And this is the third feminism thread I have seen you in. Maybe you are a total feminist.....and just need to come out of the closet. Eeek! :-)

[opiate69]

49. Misogyny?

"Honestly, the issue I am most concerned with is MISOGYNY within our culture.....not just from the corps or the sex industry or TV. It pervades our attitudes across the board."

Examples, please.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

69. An example

Look up the thread from yesterday titled "Bizarre game targets women" - go to that website, read their ad copy.

An example? How about - "hunt down these bitches like the dogs they are" - if that isn't hatred against women, I don't know what is.

[opiate69]

73. Good..

There's one example. But how, exactly does that equate to :"It pervades our attitudes across the board."

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

68. the difference between misogyny and dominance

Okay, perhaps this is what I meant. Looking at that game, I can understand the sort of dominant/submission thing going on. I can understand the primitive "thrill of the chase" - everyone I know understands those dynamics, some people are into it, some people aren't.

But what I don't understand is the misogyny, what I don't get is the degradation part. I'd never want any kind of sex between consenting adults to be illegal of course, but that kind of garbage pollutes our culture, and IT DOES HAVE AN EFFECT ON MEN.

I'll go ahead and make myself the most unpopular person on DU - I think Lieberman is right to question the violence and sex being pushed by industry. I don't like the idea politicians or government officials getting involved, but you have to be willfully ignorant to not see it.

Like I said, I have a bad feeling about the merger of open sexual attitudes (which I like) with corporate capitalism (which concerns me).

I consider myself a feminist :) but I don't like to go around saying it because it sounds a little pretentious - maybe I should go ahead and use the term - I'm a feminist - and perhaps my example will influence other like minded men to use the word? It's amazing that so many people, women even, saying things like "I'm not a feminist or anything."

I always thought feminism was "the radical notion that women are people." Certainly something I agree with.

[Heddi]

24. as a feminist

I feel that by saying women cannot choose how to use their body isn't right.

I feel that prostitution should be legalized and regulated. Have prostitutes get mandatory monthly check-ups. Force condom use. Allow prostitutes to form a union. Remove the pimps and allow women to make the decision for themselves.

I have known escorts--male and female. Some of the women were abused as children. They have a pimp, and they're getting NONE of the money they make. They're hustled, and they hustle themselves.

I've also known women who are professional escorts. They make well into high six-figure incomes every year. They have no pimps. They're high priced call girls who make incredible money, are educated, and basically see their body as a very profitable business. They're not 'forced' into prostitution. they do it by their own free will, and I believe that they should be able to.

People bring up the argument "would you like it if your mother/daughter/sister were a prostitute" --- no, but I equally wouldn't like it if they were a janitor either. Or busting their ass at a sweat-shop.

I feel that to be truly equal, women should have a say in what they do or do not want to do with their body.

I see very little difference in a woman who goes to a bar to pick up a date for the night and charges him $500 for the experience, and a woman who goes to a bar to get a date for the night and 'charges' him 5 free drinks for the experience.

When you get down to it, people prostitute themselves EVERY DAY. What is the difference in a guy spending $50 for a blow job, and a guy spending $50 buying a chick drinks at a bar and going home with her and getting a blow-job? THey're both the same thing.

IS marrying someone SOLELY for money or prestige 'prostitution'? I think it is.

The sex industry needs to be equally regulated, with strict restrictions on condom use and saftey for all people involved.

I'm no fan of prostitution, stripping, porn-movies, etc---but the fact is that no matter HOW we outlaw it, these things are going to continue to be done. As a society, we must protect our citizens, regardless of whether or not we agree with their actions or choice of professions.

Prostition is never going to go away---that's why it's the world's oldest profession. Regulate it. Allow these women to be eligible for retirement/SSI by paying taxes on their income. Allow them to unionize.

[JohnKleeb]

26. I agree about the union

I heard about something like that recently as a matter of fact I think its a good idea.

[Heddi]

38. they have it in Amsterdam

it's called the Red Thread..it's the prostitute's union.

[JohnKleeb]

39. ok thanks

they should have it here everyone needs a union. I wonder if any RW Dutch would refuse to fuck a hooker because shes unionized.

[jafap]

61. janitors of the world unite

"I equally wouldn't like it if they were a janitor either."

What is up with these people dissing janitors?
It is not my favorite job in the world, but I do take a certain amount of pride in making this world a cleaner place. The third worst thing about the job, after having to clean up after somebody who blows chunks all over the bathroom, and after clearing out stopped up toilets splattered with #2, is the lack of respect we get.
If you want a nasty job, you should try a foundry, a meat packing plant, or roofing. And what about the Army? Or animal husbandry?
How is what I do any more disgusting or degrading than what a dentist does when they look at rotten teeth and torture people all day?
Consider this:
1) my workplace is air-conditioned
2) time goes fast since I get to move around alot rather than being stuck in a cubicle
3) I am in a position of trust in that I often work unsupervised and also have keys and access to the entire building.
4) It is generally alot safer than working with a drill press, or in a coal mine, or in Iraq, etc.

Finally, why does a person become a job? Because I work 22 hours a week, suddenly I "am" a janitor. Funny, I used to be an associate instructor at a University, or the "bookman" when I had my own store.
Well, I guess "to do is to be", but it is not all I do. I wish the world would say "work as" instead of "am".

On the topic, as a book-seller, I was anti-porn, and anti-erotica. To me it is like eating - you do it three times a day and enjoy it, but you should not spend all of your time talking or thinking about it. On the other hand, I think Robert Rimmer is interesting.

[aquart]

27. Butt out or regulate. Them's your choices.

Because, honey, it ain't gonna go away.

[Eloriel]

37. What I think

This is not a thread I can participate in and keep my sanity -- or blood pressure down, but I did want to say a couple of things:

Your post is easily in the running for the most thoughtful, honest and pro-woman post I've ever seen on DU. It takes my breath away. Thank you.

I'm tearing my hair out about some of the posts from so-called "feminists" on this thread, and it's real hard for me to remember that they perhaps just don't understand the dynamics, just as you don't quite understand the dynamics when you say:

I'm kind of a social libertarian, I would aruge that prostitution should be legal and that pornography is a form of free speech.

I won't try to disagree with either of those because for me those are not the right questions (or issues is perhaps the better word). The key fact that you have to know about women (and some men) in the sex industry is that overwhelmingly they were sexually abused or exploited as children. They were deliberately warped by some creep or creeps and they will never be the same again. Therapy can "help" but cannot fix it. They can never be put back to where they once were.

The underlying fact about all child abuse, and something else that many people don't understand, is that the worst part of the hurt (emotional damage) stems from the emotional betrayal. Here is a child, a member of the most vulnerable segment of our society, who is built to rely on and trust those around them to love, protect and keep them safe. They have no other choice in the matter! Their very survival is based on relying on, trusting, AND pleasing those who they must rely on for their survival -- their parents, step-parents, older siblings, extended family, friends of the family and other caretakers. When that trust is betrayed through child abuse of any kind, it is devastating emotional bow.

Child abuse:

(1) Destroys self-esteem ("I must not be good enough, loveable enough, whatever enough, to be kept safe and protected." "I must not be loveable enough not to be used and abused, hit and kicked around like a piece of junk.")

(2) Sets a child up for a lifetime of underachievement (no real goals for their lives), possible learning difficulties, various types of dysfunctionality including relationships, addictions of all kinds (to dull the pain), criminal activities, (our prisons are filled with people, 95+% of whom were abused as children), etc.

(3) Tends to make them grow up to be abusers themselves or victims again (depends on whether they "identify with" their abusers or not).

Child SEXUAL abuse obviously involves the same emotional betrayal common to all forms of abuse, but it also adds a layer of wounding that seems to reach down to the very soul. The child's deepest personhood is violated and defiled in a way that simply can never be "fixed" or corrected, at least not at the level of understanding we currently have in the fields of psychotherapy and related disciplines.

In addition, much of the dysfunctionality that can be exhibited when that abused child becomes an adult tends toward sexual acting out, though addiction tends to be an even bigger problem for this subgroup. These additional problems include becoming sexually active very young, promiscuity, teen pregnancy, running away from home to get away from abusers (often becoming prostitutes to survive), getting into horrible and abusive relationships, and attracting mates who will sexually abuse their children (if they don't grow up to be perps themselves).

In short, these once-innocent children grow up to live particularly ugly lives. Demeaned, empty, sordid.

So while some on this thread celebrate a woman's ability to choose to sell her body along with the higher pay she can get for doing so, the reality of the matter is very different from what I would call free agents in a free market. Oh, it's a market all right, but one society has set up to be populated by victims who continue to be exploited and victimized.

Yes, I know that there are those who do not see these women (and some men) as victims or as exploted, including some of these same sex industry workers themselves. In many ways, these women feel this is one way THEY can have the power. But what kind of power is it?

It's hardly the kind of self-empowerment we humans aspire to. I maintain that NO ONE who is emotionally healthy would "choose" to become a sex worker. In fact, that point is already proven by the fact that the vast majority (and probably ALL) were sexually abused as children.

These dynamics have nothing to do with "open sexuality," unless by that term you mean sexual exploitation and I don't think you do. It also has nothing to do with healthy sexuality, and you're entirely on the right track when you complain that "I feel like my sex drive is being hijacked by corporations using sophisticated technology to sell me products." What you describe, and your gut IS telling you the truth, is a perversion or unhealthy distortion of sex and sexuality.

And that's all I'm going to say on this subject, since it's the last time I'll visit this thread. Thanks again for your thoughtful post.

Eloriel

[undergroundpanther]

62. Eloriel

You got it.


Those with power do not want to be accountable for misusing it.
I was an abused kid.I know what you are takking about.
It takes a lifetime to recover from abuse.It is painful.

I never went into the sex industry. I have a very low sex drive.
Why Because sex especially porn in this culture is too much about power and domination games.I seek equality love,companionship,and relationships.These things can't be represented in a photo.
My trust has been betrayed too much by civilized humanity.

I was what some would call"attractive"when I was younger.
I was terrified when I was thinner when men would letch and oogle at me like a piece of meat and try to get into my pants by pretending they wanted to relate or be a companion to me.They wanted the booty and would disregard me to get at it,nevermind that my trust has been betrayed,they were willing to betray my trust again if I'd just trust them..Luckily I didn't..Butas a way to avoid this fear I gained weight now I am not oogled and I can walk down the street without being harassed.
Some would say that men noticing me was a "good thing"..It wasen't good for me. Because I sensed thier reason for seeking me was to get themselves off,They didn't have the same priorities as I did.They sought to use,I sought to relate.
I have had problems holding jobs because of emotional/psychological issues.I wonder how many abused people face economic cocercion and deprivation.

If I was desperate for shelter or food would I display myself to the same sort of men exploiters that make comments about my body,undressing me with thier imaginations?? Hell no,I'd kill myself first.
I could so easily hate men,but I don't.I hate our civilization. I just don't trust any people until they earn my trust and I don't trust anyone that manipulates either.
I just don't give my trust and life away so easily.
I refuse to manipulate or dominate others just because I want something they have.But Likewise I won't tolerate a manipulator or dominator playing games with me for something they want.I can't stand these sorts of games.

I am lucky I am married to a guy who does not play any stupid power games.He has earned my trust,my respect and my love.He respects me like a kindred spirit a companion and freind.. We have both been through alot of pain in our lives and have had our trust betrayed deepoy.Maybe that is why we can relate to each other instead of use one another.Our trust for one another is seen as a treasure and a gift that can be taken back,so it's to not be used.

Sometimes I think people need to relate as people to people more instead of these object relations our culture teaches us is"normal".
Who but a object loving consumer could "make love" to a photograph? What happened to cultivating a real deep,trustworthy, meaningful relationship with someone? porn and sex workers,what a lonely way to love.What does this object relationship our culture is infatuated with say about our society.To me it's so sad that compassion trust and empathy are run roughshod,to get a shallow prize and play games..
Is it our very culture that is the problem? We are living in a hierarchical society built on the belief in a systemic exploitation of those we think are under us made"normal".Despite all the talk of freedom and equality we still accept games of power and powerlessness as if it was natural..An object,a photo can never talk back,or relate to the person using it.It's a total domination selfish gratification thing.It's almost like "relating "to a sex worker preteding to desire more sex from you when you are the 20th john of the day. It's seeking a self absorbed fantasy and ignoring that there is a relationship.

The john gets off in his own fantasy land oblivious while her insides are rubbed raw everyday by the men who want thier bang for thier bucks,while she acts the part he demands she play, she runs away from it all with dissociation and drugs. This obliviousness is an object relationship it is ABUSIVE of people who all related whether they think they are or not..

It's similar to an employee that agrees to work overtime and neglect his family,his hobbies,his life and loves.The employee is cocerced because he does not desire to lose his job and so he smiles with his silly paper hat on .His boss can keep his fantasy and be oblivious to the struggles his greed helps create for this "employee object". The boss just wants a "loyal" employee to take care of his business for him.Never mind the employees family is falling apart and the employee feels like killing himself. The boss just wants to use his object-employee he has paid for.He wants his bang for his buck with a smile.


We love the lies society gives us when they work in our favor and we get a fantasy made"real"..and we hate it when the illusion is shattered and we see personally in a relationship way what we do to other people's trust,lives and bodies when we make people into objects to use to fufill fantasies of power and forget the context and relationship our selfish objectifying fantasies destroy and deny exist just under the surface of our desires.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

70. Every man should be required to read the previous two posts

All you Libertarians prattling on about how liberating the sex industry is or can be is full of it. IT DAMAGES MEN - not nearly as bad as it does women, but don't kid yourself. Strip clubs, pornography, and prostitution will warp your sexuality and your personality to the point where you will be a very ugly and evil person, and quite possibly unable to have a normal loving and intimate relationship with a woman ever again. You won't be able to get off without movies, porn, drugs, computers and technology and a constant new supply of interchangable bodies - or simulations of bodies - ever again.

Obviously a visit to the strip club or watching a porn movie is not going to ruin your life, but just wait until it's more mainstream - and it's becoming more mainstream all the time - and no woman will sleep with you unless you give her cash. Then YOU will understand what sexual slavery is. YOU will understand what it means to be objectified, not for you body, but for your bank account. Talk about being a prostitute!

The problem isn't sex, the problem is MONEY. Ignore these issues at your own peril.

And DU can kick me off if they want, but I won't stop criticizing the sleazy industries that give money to Democrats - like the sex industry, and nobody want to be on the receiving end of the wrath of organized capitalists who think you're a threat to their bottom line.

Let's talk about capitalism - capital is productive property, that generates an income. What is the "capital" involved in the sex industry - WOMEN - AS PROPERTY - being sold for the profit of someone else.

That's my rant. Don't like it? No body says you have to agree with me.

[Yavin4]

40. The Only Way To Rid The Sex Industry of Exploitation Is To Legalize It

If you really want to stop the sexual exploitation of people by the sex industry, then the only way to do it is to legalize it and regulate it. You could use the tax money to ensure that the workers' mental and physical health needs are taken care of. You can ensure that illegals are not forced into working in the sex industry, etc.

In my book, there's nothing wrong with people paying for sex or getting paid for sex. Sometimes people just want to have sex without trying to form some sort of emotional connection with the person.

[Heddi]

41. not only that

but people will always partake in personally-destructive behaviour. By making it illegal, you're basically turning people into criminals for no good reason.

There is no reason that women should have to go to jail for having THEIR CHOICE in what they want to do with their bodies--that goes for abortion, tattoos, peircings, AND prostitution, stripping, porn, etc.

There are many unsavoury things in the world. Prohibiting them only causes criminals to get control of them. THAT is exploitation.

As a woman, I take strong offense (not by you, but by other posters) to those that imply that by making a decision to have sex for money, or strip for money, that I am "being exploited" or "allowing myself to be exploited".

Bullshit.

I'm pro-choice in ALL areas.

To say that a woman should not be allowed to choose the profession of her choice because she MAY have been abused as a child or MAY be suffering emotional trauma is akin to saying that women should not be able to have an abortion because she just doesn't have the wits about her to make that decision.

Fuck that.

It's my body, and if I want to fuck for food then that's my choice. I should not be considered a criminal because I choose to do this to make money.

[Yavin4]

44. Heddi, What's Really F*cked Up Is...

that the sex industry will see an explosion in the coming years, if Bush and the Republicans continue to run things. When the economy goes to hell, people turn to the underground economy to survive, prostitution and drugs. A single, unemployed mother will sell her body to feed her children. A lot of women are going to get abused by this underground, illegal industry.

If it were legal and above board, the women who choose to get into the profession will have some measure of protection.


As for the abused child theory, I must agree. Most of the people working in the sex industry are victims of child abuse, and they should get help. By making the industry legal, then some of that money could be used to see that the sex industry workers get psychological counseling if they so choose.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

72. Legalization WILL NOT make all the problems go away

That's wishful thinking. Sure single mothers may make great money for a while - UNTIL they start importing women from third world countries.

Imagine the pimp corporations bribing, er donating to, politicians to pass the H1B visa for prostitutes. You know, if those women don't fuck more efficiently for less money, we'll just import some women to do it for cheaper. They already do this to every industry, what makes you think legal sex-work will be any different?

I don't want to put anyone in jail for selling their body or renting someone else's. But pretending that legalizing and regulating will make it all better is wishful thinking.

Unionization is the answer? You think that the sex industry would be any less ruthless than Walmart when it comes to fighting unionization? How about the south's "right-to-work" laws? Think there will be an exception for sex work? Uh, no.

As if a Republican government would give a damn about working conditions for sex workers - what a joke!

[Clete]

43. Well having been acquainted with a few ladies in the sex

industry in the past, I can honestly say that only one of them qualified as a high class hooker, which she did part time while going to university. Most of the women are for the most part exploited by boyfriends, pimps, drug dealers and yes in some cases their husbands.

I would like to see some aspects of it legalized so the women become victimized less than they are. The real solution of course lies in real equality for women, both in society and the work place. I also think we need equal representation in government, which we still don't have.

[Nazgul35]

42. I'm thiking about....

a pay-per-view mud wrestling contest...let the lovely ladies from both side represent their issues in one night of bikinis, baby oil, lots and lots of mud and maybe a dwarf....

:evilgrin:

[Allah Akbar]

48. Who says someone can stop another person

from doing what they want "because you are not comfortable with it"?

Some people feel unconfortable about homosexuality, but that doesn't give them the right to stop someone from doing it.

What do they always say about abortion, if you don't like it, don't have one.

Why do people think that they DO have the right to step in and say "No, you can't do that" in regards to prostitution, or porn or drug use?

I just don't get it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

74. What Malcolm X said about poor black women working as prostitutes

Have you ever read his autobiography? He had some interesting thoughts on the subject.

I NEVER said that people can't do what they want to with their body. Did I say that anywhere?

[pasadenademocrat]

50. My girlfriend is in the adult entertainment industry

She does nude pictures and has a website, but strictly softcore.

Its terrible. I am trying to help her get out of it, but the money is so easy and good, its really hard to stop. You can make a couple of grand a week under the table. Its hard to go from that to $8 an hour while you go back to college

Everyone I have met in her industry is pretty tweaked. its just not a healthy lifestyle, physically, emotionally, or spirtually. It really does rob you of something unique and special, and makes it course and vulgar.

I love my girlfriend, but I think this will end up being a definitive issue in our relationship. I see it destroying her and I hate it. That's just my experience, and I'd be interested to see if anyone has a positive experience with it.

[TLM]

53. Please do not take this the wrong way...

but I wonder how much of the negative effect on those in the sex industry comes from the disapproval, scorn, and sort of puritan style shunning and rejection they experience at the hands of the supposedly righteous and clean.

Is it what they are doing that is to blame, or how we treat them because of what they are doing?

[pasadenademocrat]

55. I don't take it the wrong way

I've thought of that myself, and to be honest, I don't know.

I'm sure that is some of it, but some of it I think is deeper than that.

I should also point out that if you asked her, she would probably say the same thing. She hates it, but loves the freedom the money gives her.

I haven't met anyone in that line of work that does it because they like it. They all do it for the money, or because they have been hurt relationally in some way, or they just don't have better options.

It just makes me sad.

[Clete]

54. She needs to know she will be passe very quickly.

One girl I knew was smart and invested her money in real estate and then got out of the business. She is a socker mom today. Usually, the good money gets less as you get older and honestly most of the women seem to develop drug and other psychological problems. If you can show her what her future probably will be in five to ten years, maybe you can get through to her.

[classics]

56. Women should be allowed to sell sex.

And sell it in a safe, clean and hospitable atmosphere.

Its good for women to CHOOSE to do it, its good for men who want to buy it, and its good for a society where too many women and children are raped by men who could have gotten their 'fix' legally if they were able to just buy it.

Its her body, let her sell it if she wants. Who is anyone else to tell her what to do with her body.

[pasadenademocrat]

58. I agree with freedom but

I REALLY HATE THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO CHOSE THINGS SIMPLY FOR MONEY

I wish the world didn't work that way.

[Terwilliger]

59. Welcome to capitalism

[kathee]

60. DAMMIT

HOw many times do I have to reveal and post my position as SOMEONE who LIVES in this industry EVERY DAY!

I have a website. I do phone sex. I am NOT an emotionally challenged ANYTHING! Nor am I ashamed.

I am faithful to my SO, and love him dearly. I also am a strong dominatrix in my field. I take money from men that want to give it to me, and gifts from them as well. (Amazon.com accomodates me without revealing anything personal.) This is my JOB.

I love what I do. I was NEVER sexually abused. I DONT hate men. I am an actress. That is ALL I am. That is what most of the women in the industry are. Damn good actresses.

Im almost forty years old. Where I work, women are even in their sixties. I will do this for as long as I have a good voice and know what it is that men want to hear. I cater to every sort of fetish that is not illegal.

Bottom line is..dont take away MY choice, and dont take away from the men who call me THEIR choice.

[anti_shrub]

64. Fact about the porn industry

In straight porn at least, women make far more than men in professional adult movies. If you wanted to level the playing field so that men and women would get equal pay, the women would get a huge pay cut.

[Allah Akbar]

71. I'm sure pretty women make more than ugly women too

fact of life.