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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:54 AM
Original message
STOP turning on our soldiers!
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:00 PM by getoffmytrain
I have seen TONS of threads on this board in the last week that are cause for serious concern. A portion of DU has turned on the troops and it's going to back-fire, HUGE.


It is a terrible mistake to start dissing the soldiers again as it has forever been a stain upon the peace movement of the 1960's and doing it again to 18 year old Marines isn't going to get anyone any where. Since the election, this board has turned vehemently anti-soldier and that is a very disturbing trend. Keep doing this, and you will have zero credibility.

Secondly, when and where did Kerry say he was going to take all of these troops home? What was Kerry going to do to get all of these guys out of Iraq ASAP. NOTHING! Kerry never had a solid plan on Iraq, unfortunately. A Kerry presidency meant nothing different to an 18 year old humping in the Sunni Triangle... get out of your shoes and walk in those of a soldier if you can... How many of you have served in the military? Further, how many of you have been in combat... IN THIS WAR?

The thought process of an 18 year old soldier:

"Hmmm if I vote for Bush, I'll be here for 10 more months... hmmm if I vote for Kerry and he wins, I'll still be here for 10 months... none of this shit matters to me anyway..."

Trust me... from first hand experience, the critical mass of soldiers were/are starting to see some of the truths of the Iraq war, however, stupid comments like those many here have posted, "I have no empathy for them" and other I've seen that basically say "Fuck them, I don't care if they die... and if they're from a red state, I REALLY don't care if they die" are going to alienate the people in uniform so fast you won't know what hit you.

Control your anger people...attacking the troops isn't going to get anyone anywhere. You should be ashamed of yourselves and should learn something from those that have protested previous wars.

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Feathered Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. support the troops
bring them home.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Hear, Hear, Bring The Troops Home - Save Them From Implementing
Bush's evil plans, save them from being inadvertent baby killers!
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MyDogSpot Donating Member (726 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
123. support the troops' gusto in killing off all males under the age of 45
in Fallujah?

I don't support that.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #123
348. it also serves to encourage the joining of more killers for empire
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. turn-off the television...
just turn it off...
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You think my experience in the war in Iraq
is from the television? You're gravely mistaken.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. Perhaps you might list some of the "tons" of anti-troop threads
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:02 PM by Rowdyboy
I see most every thread that appears on this board and somehow I've missed ALL of them. DUers have been incredibly supportive of the troops, just not the policy or the Commander in Thief.

Of the very few non-supportive posts (not threads) many come from people trying to sabotague Democrats.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Fair question.
I'll be glad to go find a some threads.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. here are a few.
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. It is very clear...
from reading those threads that many of us are livid at Bush's policies, and understand that he is using our soldiers as proxies. We're blaming BUSH, not the troops. Maybe one or two people express their outrage in a manner that isn't deemed appropriate. But don't lump in everyone here in the same category.

I'm not going to jump for joy when I hear our Marines are getting pumped up for a massacre, a massacre Bush has ordered to salve his own ego or whatever. While it disgusts me, I also know our troops either get pumped up, or die. But FUCK BUSH for putting them in this no win situation. Iraq is an atrocity of the highest order. We have no business being there. Give some of us credit for knowing who is really to blame for this mess.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. hey
liberal muse... I hear ya... I KNOW everyone is pissed at the chimp, rightfully so. Unforunately, this thread has been the best example of what I am talking about.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:55 PM
Original message
You Are Wrong, or adamantly Determined to Besmirch the Liberal Agenda.
I'm not biting. You want to bitch and complain, show some balls and yell at the Fucking retard we have as a commander. It's our fault the soldiers and folks like you are fed lies. We are not telling those lies.

Thank you for your service.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #58
351. gee... first we weren't moral enough; now we're a little TOO moral...
Gee whiz... guess us lefties just can't get it right. We're immoral outtatouchniks for not wanting gays to live as pariahs; but at the same time, we're also dreadful moral scolds for not being sufficiently -- I dunno -- grateful for what our soldiers are doing to to other people's families in Eye-Rack. :eyes:

Or maybe the problem is that you're just posting dishonest propaganda and appeals to paranoid chauvinism.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #351
362. Dishonest propaganda?
Need you read any further than this thread to see that my point was made time and time again?

now... get the hell off my train.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #362
371. yes -- dishonest propaganda
You've never given a rational reason why refusing to applaud someone's actions is tantamount to "turning on" that person.

That doesn't say anything bad about your ingenuity, though: no one could give a rational reason to equate refusal to applaud someone with "attacking" him.



now... get the hell off my train.

You see? I told you that you couldn't give a rational reason re etc; you didn't, and your temper tantrum isn't changing my mind, either.

Now: you and your train may get stuffed.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #371
376. where
Edited on Tue Nov-09-04 12:05 AM by getoffmytrain
am I being dishonest?

PS. Painting all the soldiers as 'war criminals' and 'mindless killers' as some on this board have done is turning on the soldiers in my mind. Further, not caring about the safety of the soldiers would certainly qualify as lack of support to a rational mind as well.

I think "fuck the troops, they're war criminals" is an attack on the troops... but perhaps not in your world of illogical spin.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #45
234. What you said...
BRING HOME THE TROOPS!

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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
55. I looked at all three threads.....
There is much disgust with Bush and his war-certainly I agree with that. There are a few posters who, in my opinion, go way too far by blaming our individual soldiers. I think this is unfair and inappropriate but-in a free society-they have a right to their views. Thats what a message board is for-people of vastly different backgrounds and outlooks come together to discuss issues. Some people are only pretending to be Democrats and actively seek to make real Democrats look unpatriotic. Also, notice that most of the worst of the comments have been deleted by the mods.

In short, certainly there are some here who blame our soldiers for doing their job. However, there are not "tons of threads" nor are there even tons of individual posts, just a few people whose views I do not share.

I think its unfair to "tar" the whole board because of the stated views of a few people I have never met and probably never will. The OVERWHELMING sentiment here is supportive of our soldiers.
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Dzimbowicz Donating Member (911 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
100. Good point and I agree with you
You stated: I think its unfair to "tar" the whole board because of the stated views of a few people I have never met and probably never will. The OVERWHELMING sentiment here is supportive of our soldiers.

I recall a posting about the war and someone who posted that "War is a crime and soldiers are the criminals who carry it out."

Within a very short time the moderators deleted this post.

I am a veteran and I feel quite welcome here at DU.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. You meant "tons of posts" not "tons of threads" LBN threads
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:45 PM by jdjkkse
are straight news articles, non of those threads have the header "Soldiers Suck!" or anything like that. This is a website on the internet, not worth getting upset about.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
159. You Fail To Distinguish Between The Acts Ordered
By Bush and the desire to remove the troops from a situation where such acts are not possible.

You treat any criticism of military acts as a personal criticism of individual military members.

The actions of a group can be considered heinous if the reason for committing said acts are unfounded.

We know that the Iraq invasion was illegal. We know that the Iraq occupation is illegal. We know that the man who instigated the invasion and occupation did so on false pretenses. Hence we know that the institutions and enablers of these decisions are equally corrupt.

No one here has criticized individual soldiers, sailors, or airmen caught in the crossfire - except for blatant war crimes; we do criticize a morally bankrupt military command that enables the Iraq insanity.

One thinks that you are very conflicted in your thinking and need to reassess your information, values, and logic.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
184. It seems the nasty stuff was planted by
disruptors, from what I can see.

Lots of right-wing shit -squirts like to come here and try to make us look like military haters.

We're not.

There's plenty of veterans and military families here.

I 'll re-iterate what was said on one of the threads in response to one poster who veered into soldier blaming--WE failed the military. WE didn't stop Bush & Co. from their immoral unnecessary war.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #184
231. I think that is largely true
when someone says -all American soldiers are baby killers (something so ridiculous that it doesn't even need to be discussed), I automatically think troll
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. It isn't a great idea......
I have seen a lot of these comments popping up since Tuesday. It is terrible and it most certainly won't do us any good. Those are the kinds of things that have given the right ammo to try and turn "liberal" into a bad word and alienate dems from the middle of the road people. "Liberals" don't support our troops, etc.

Whatever the reason, it's so sad to me to see this starting to happen. None of us supports this war. I think and hope most of us support our troops. Yes you have your "bad seeds" i.e. Abu Ghraib. To broad brush our entire military is just plain wrong and totally uncharacteristic of when progressives stand for, IMO.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
48. that's a load of shit, open your eyes
It's everywhere.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. There's a difference in threads and individual posts....
Yes, there are some individual posts by people who blame individual soldiers. No, there are not tons of threads which comdemn soldiers, at least not that I've seen. My eyes are open and I'm willing to be convinced-I just don't see what you do yet.

I've been wrong before.
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:35 PM
Original message
yes, trolls are posing as libs and dems are gonna dis the troops
no matter what we do. It's fascist SOP, just like in the sixties, because it works.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. sorry, I can't sanction murder, no matter who is doing the killing
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:03 PM by ixion
just my personal belief.

I don't wish them ill, of course, but I simply will not support government sanctioned murder, any more than I will support mano-a-mano murder.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. Right on!!
Our troops can't pick and choose the battles they fight.

To turn on them would be the greatest disservice that we can do.

Once a troop, always a troop. :pals:
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jdj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. I don't know how it can be considered "turning on them" when
as a party we just busted our asses trying to elect a candidate who will end this war and bring them home.

Bush and the repukes turned on the troops ages ago.

and will continue to, all the while wearing a shiny yellow ribbon.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #66
204. You're right. Bringing them home is not turning on them.
It is important not to make the mistake of the Viet Nam era when there was a lot of derision of the troops generated by a bunch of deliberately offensive to nearly everyone morons (e.g., Hoffman, Rubin). At the same time, 100K civilians dead and attacks on a city to make Iraq safe for elections is absurd. Opposing these actions is not opposing the troops. Turning on the Pentagon, well that's another thing.

Good point here to keep in mind but I've seen very little here at DU to support the thread author's contention.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.


http://www.blackboxvoting.org /
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #66
284. Right On!!!
I am sick of the right's hypocrisy and notice how buisnesses abuse the flag just to sell their fucking products. Blasphemy for this liberal. Talk about burning the flag.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. A lot of misdirected anger. I am positive we all support the troops
and want them home safely. They're already being screwed by this admin. We need to continue to fight together for them too.
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skjpm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Are they brainwashed victims if they voted for Bush?
I simply think they are accountable for their actions. The majority of them voted for Bush, and they were aware of the consequences. If they are willing to accept these consequences, I give the respect they deserve by not calling them victims. I honor their choice of commander-in-chief by not feeling sorry for them.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Why would they be any different than the stateside people who listen to
Rush? They're being lied to. They trust the people telling them the lies because they don't know any different.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
268. Anybody who lets Rush decide their ethics for them deserves contempt
service or not. The most important lesson I have gotten out of history is that we must never surrender our moral decisions to others, and must remain critical of all authority.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #268
270. Thank you. Nobody - including soldiers - should surrender their souls n/t
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Please tell me that you never served...
To blame these people for obeying lawful orders is repulsive! Militaries do that. Their emotions are pushed to the background in order to fulfill their duties. Their rights are suppressed and they have to do what they're told. Unfortunately, they will live with this for the rest of their lives.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your opinion but I feel it is extremely misdirected.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. I haven't questioned that.
Not sure who that is for.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Post #10
n/t
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Above mine then.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Yes. Your post regarding Rush is correct and I couldn't agree more
n/t
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. I am getting sick reading a lot of this. I don't see how turning on
each other and the troops help. They are there whether they want to be or not. They need to do what they gotta do to get home now. Many were looking for college and to serve the country. That their commitment to protect our country was abused and mis-used by those in control isn't their fault. I feel very sorry for those who don't want to be there, and only want to get home alive. I pray they do.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. lawful orders
like invading a sovereign nation without cause? I guess the guy turning on the gas at Auschwitz got lawful orders too, and he was fulfilling his duty...

Expecting every 19-year-old to have the confidence and presence of mind to resist is unrealistic. Those who have deserve our support more than any others.
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belladonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. See, there's the problem
"Lawful orders"

Perhaps if the media whores would stop seeking out the gung ho soldiers who think this is one big video game, I'd cringe a little less. Not likely, but it sure would help.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
50. OK, so the Nuremburg defense is valid then...n/t
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Cyrix Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
135. I was just following orders huh?
Where have I heard that before...
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
219. sorry but plenty have obeyed UNLAWFUL ones too
that's where I "blame the soldiers" clearly most are just doing what they're told but so were Nazi soldiers. MOst probably never do anything that would (in a fair world) get them hauled up before the Hague but the ones tat do deserve every bit of contempt they get. The (ex) soldiers I know will freely tell you that they served with some guys who were simply violent thugs given free reign, it's unfortunate their conduct can sully the name of the others, but that happens in every group.

The law abiding soldiers have all my support - to get the hell outta Iraq.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
49. would you be so magnanimous toward foreign soldiers...
...occupying your neighborhood, murdering your friends and family? They'd be equally blameless. "It's not their fault-- it's their leaders."

Some how I doubt it.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. You are twisting my words and putting new ones in there. We can
support our troops and be against the war. I do not blame any of them I place the blame where it belongs. I don't believe they are happy to be killing people either. How they voted is irrelevent. That isn't any of our business. That is their right even if their loyalty is misplaced. The system that makes the military look good is what needs to change. Attacking our own isn't going to solve anything.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. well, would you extend that willingness to overlook their crimes...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:56 PM by mike_c
...to foreign soldiers occupying your neighborhood? I'm not twisting your words-- I'm asking you a question. If it would be wrong for foreign troops to occupy and murder in your country, why is it okay for them to do it in Iraq? Are American soldiers not accountable to the same standards as soldiers from other countries? Are you familiar with the Nuremburg conclusion that wars of aggression are crimes against humanity, no matter who commits them? Did you know that the Nuremburg findings specifically stated that those standards applied to U.S. soldiers as well?

If U.S. military in Iraq are participating in crimes against humanity, do you support their crimes?
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. You are going on the assujmption that they are all war criminals. I don't
agree. If you want to go after anyone go after the ones in charge of them. I cannot sit where I am at and second guess an 18 yo kids actions in a war zone. I am all for putting Bush and company on trial. That doesn't automatically translate to our troops.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #90
104. then what was Nuremburg all about?
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:17 PM by mike_c
The world agreed that wars of aggression are BY DEFINITION crimes against humanity, and that all who participate in them, from the top leadership, through the lowliest military private, to the "good Germans" who supported their troops, are all complicit. The U.S. agreed that those principles apply universally. You and I are presently complicit in crimes against humanity being committed by our military in our names.

One of the longest understood principles of civilized behavior is that participants in a criminal enterprise are criminals. We can weigh the depth of their criminal responsibility-- that's what the judiciary is for and why the Nuremburg Tribunal and the ICC were established, but the assumption that they are criminals follows naturally from their participation in a criminal enterprise.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #104
108. Sounds like you've made up your made already.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #104
261. That's not accurate at all in terms of international law
The world agreed that wars of unwarrented aggression are defined under Count I as crimes against peace, or conspiracy to engage in war crimes, and the highest government and military officials are the only ones to be charged with this.

It's true that certain special organizations, such as the SS and Einsatzgruppen, were regarded as fundamentally criminal and all members were to be prosecuted for crimes of war and crimes against humanity. However, this did not include the regular branches of the German military, and certainly not most officers or enlisted men. Field Marshalls and commanders were charged and convicted for knowingly transmitting or carrying out clearly illegal orders, but this was a very small minority.

Being of the same nationality or citizenship as that of current war criminals is also not part of criteria for crimes against humanity or any other counts. You and I are not 'complicit' and would not be found guilty in international court. Actually, no American would ever be convicted of crimes against peace or crimes of war, because the only individuals who have ever been charged were from the leadership of conquered nations.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #261
286. Non sequitur
Because it hasn't happened (war crimes convictions for a victorious nation) doesn't mean it can't, or won't
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #286
306. It probably would not happen
The administration of that victorious nation would have to agree to it, and none is likely to do that; they would just have courts martial within their own military. The ICC can only intervene when no single country is able to hold the trial competantly and without obvious conflict of interest, and our notoriously arrogant country in particular would never admit to that sort of situation.

This is speculation. Nobody knows what is going to happen in the next four years, and we can't afford to forget it: The most radical and unpredictable president in history has been emboldened in victory and is now effectively immune from public accountability. Their opposition has never been weaker in modern history, and has very little control over the decisions of the executive and legislative branches. The future is far out of our hands.

Given how much has happened since 2000, I wonder where we will be in four years.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #306
325. agreed
that it probably would not happen. However a future administration of that victorious nation could agree to it, even if it was 5-10 years down the road. My own personal belief is that is the only way we are going to put this war behind us.
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HappinessPie Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
283. We should not tar all troops with the same brush! Things are...
always more complicated than they seem.

We don't know why some troops vote for Bush...are you sure they weren't goaded into it by superiors?

Many people go to war because they are trying to finance their future...so many of them never thought they would see combat.

Even if they did vote for Bush, look at the information they are getting. You think it's hard to get "real" information from the regular network TV media? They have RUSH on the radio. A lot of them are kids. A lot of them probably WANT to believe they are doing the right thing, and that may make them reluctant to criticize the commander-in-chief. Do you remember when you were 18???? Things sometimes seemed clear, but when you got older, you may have changed your position on a few issues.

I am in full support of any troops who are in Iraq dying for a war of choice of an administration that clearly does not value them as human beings, if only because it must be a terrifying position to be in. As for those troops who have committed atrocities, who are bigoted against Arabs, etc...of course I don't support their actions, nor do I support them. They are bad people, just like there are bad civilians.

I just think that we need to stop generalizing and acting as if there is some hegemonic "soldier's mind." I'm sure there are plenty of them who have swallowed the story hook, line, and sinker the way much of the electorate has, but there are certainly those voices in the wilderness who oppose what we are doing and cannot get out. Also, remember that it is a big deal to speak out against the machine when you are in the military, so the fact that there are some who do most likely indicates that there are a lot more who feel the same way but stay silent for fear of recrimination.
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Soldiers are, by and large
young people who are trying to raise money for college, or at least learn a trade. The fact they are in a combat situation is certainly not their fault, and most likely not their choice. A lot of people here claim to have seen "Fahrenheit 911" and if you recall, he said(correctly) that most grunts come from middle and lower income backgrounds. I admire them and wish for their safe return from the hell they have been thrust into. Any one who doesn't support the troops is no better than the repubs they criticize. These young people are trained to follow orders and that's what they are doing. And, for the most part, when they come home, they are productive citizens.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Trained to follow orders, kinda like a dog?
You imply they can't think for themselves or can't understand when they open up their M-16 on an Iraqi he is defending his own country, just like the soldier would if he had to?

Cop out. Big time.
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
276. Fuck you
I did not say that nor would I ever say that. You are a stupid SOB if you can't see what I'm saying.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #276
281. OK, let me get this straight...
they can think for themselves, so they're *choosing* to pull the trigger, so they're innocent, right? Is that what you're saying?

Or is it that they've been thrust into this awkward situation where they might get yelled at by their CO, and it's just easier to "clean house":



Fuck You Right Back.
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #281
295. "Yelled at by their CO"?!
The deal is that if a soldier disobeys orders, he or she is in deep shit. We're talking prison time. My point was that our men and women of the military are not animals and should not be treated as such. And where did I say that they are choosing to pull the trigger?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #295
298. yep, deep shit
Of course most of them choose to pull the trigger. Here's one soldier who had the guts to do what's right:

http://www.freecamilo.org /

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. They're going to come back bitter and will tell their * voting
friends and neighbors how badly they were lied to. That's already happening.

Then they'll get angry at those people when they shout the soldiers down.

"I served in Iraq, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that there were no WMDs in Iraq and we are not there for the people of Iraq."

"THAT'S NOT TRUE! Bush said there were, and the coalition agreed! Besides, he's YOUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF! How DARE you try to contradict him???? Oh, *I* know... you're just like HANOI JANE, right???"

Mark my words. This group is going to be part of the new Democratic party (or something else) and they'll be blackly bitter about the treatment they'll get when they come home to this.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. I agree!
I was a soldier and I know how important it is to think your country cares about you! Those "mostly" are my brothers!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. I don't support any troops
who are participating in the massacre in Iraq.

I'm supporting the ones like Camilo Mejia who had the guts to lay dcwn their weapons and go to prison.

Murder is murder.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. That is your opinion
If somebody else doesn't share your opinion, live with it. I don't remember that you were named moral and ethical policeman around here.
I didn't see where they passed a law where anybody had to care about the fate of people in the military.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Of course you don't have to
however... the point is, it sure isn't going to help open the eyes of this nation and end the war.
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cubsfan forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. Well, for those of us who know the harsh
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:17 PM by cubsfan forever
realities of Vietnam, your comments are, to say the least, callow. To answer your question: How many of 'you' have served"? Probably more than on your side of the issue. Hmmmmmmmm process of an 18 year old soldier? In my day it took 13 weeks of basic plus small arms and other specialty training after. Although some folks did enlist at 16 and 17, the youngest grunts mainly were 19-20. Today's armed forces require a high school degree. NO ONE is turning on our troops except for Candyass and the 'Publicans.It's interesting that your post uses 'you' several times and not 'us.' A most telling point.

And you "are" an 18 year old soldier....where? Just asking.
Professor 2
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. oh yes
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:16 PM by getoffmytrain
I am indeed a freeper lurking here after 400 something posts. Give me a break.

On Edit: your comments on me personally are stupid.. we don't know eachother, so no biggie.

Thanks for your 'Nam service.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
244. There ARE lurking freepers with more than double your post count
that have already outted themselves a few days ago. Folks here at DU are concerned with good reason.

I'm not saying you are a freeper - this is the first time I have come across you.

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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. No.
I am 26.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
191. I guess you must mean me. I do not support any offensive action
by American Imperialist forces in Iraq, I do support the just cause of the Iraqi patriots to drive the occupiers and collaborationist puppets from their country. I love Americans, but they shouldn't be there and must go. WE ARE THE BAD GUYS. The laws of Karma rule.
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cubsfan forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. I NEVER turned on our troops
BTW, you are wasting your breath, as you are on my ignore list. Bye!

Professor 2
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Diana52 Donating Member (162 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Part of the problem,
as it see it, may be that some just simply cannot understand how the troops support the one who dodged the service, and failed to support the man who met it head on. And, it goes further than simply supporting him, some believe that "the military" has gone to great lengths to destroy Senator's Kerry lifetime record of service to his country.

I took deep offense to the Republicans and the media spouting that what happened in Viet Nam didn't matter anymore, and that no one really cares about Viet Nam anymore.

My response to that is...SOMEBODY better START caring.
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. They are the primary reason why I protest this war
Same reason I was against the Vietnam war,
so they will come back home, whole
(and alive, not in a non photo-op box).

We are a creature that seems to lionize war. I despair of us ever going beyond 'War'... the closest thing we have to that, the United Nations, was declared "Irrelevant" by *

But while we may not be able to totally escape our Mars-like nature, we should at least demand, in an unbiased and sane manner, what Wars we insert our soldiers into.
Especially to guard against being called a Traitor because we need to ensure this (LOL Yep way out of temporal reference, but I am strangely compelled to throw that in for some reason ;)

Great post.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. If this is true that 70-80% of the military voted for Bush
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:22 PM by Marianne
I can only assume they want and approve of the war and all the accompanying lies that went with it. Is that a fair assumption?

Your logic that as eighteen year old kids, they figured no difference between Bush and Kerry is flawed. First of all, I have been keeping track of the fallen soldiers and there are more thirtyish guys than eighteen year old kids listed. Second, if we are to ignore that vote and make excuses, as being the logic of eighteen year old kids who do not know any better, they we may as well embrace and love and support and excuse all the people in the south and midwest who voted for Bush and his war also. I think that is a fair assumption.

Let's get down to semantics.

What is "troops'?

A giant killing machine made up of individuals, but nevertheless, "troops" are the ones doing the killing and carrying out the mission. OK?

I understand Sgt.Joe Smith from Pensacola Florida and know he did not vote for Bush, so I support Joe Smith,

but "troops" and "supporting the troops" requires me to support the giant killing machine carrying out the mission and this I cannot, did not and will never do.

I have no guilt about this whatsoever.

Nothing more I can say about the use of the word "troops" to jog one's appeal to pity, forcing me and others to approve and support the giant killing machine by it's vague definition.
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swhisper Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
269. Troops are brainwashed from the day they get off the bus
and what makes you think they are'nt watched when they fill out their votes? I'm an army brat and a guardswoman myself. You are discouraged to do anything anti-team
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Where are those threads?
I haven't seen a single one!

Sign petition for Dr. Dean to become Chair of DNC

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/deanfordnc
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Yes -- self-defense is one thing, conquest is another
Because they can't tell the difference doesn't require me to exonerate them for killing innocent people
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
229. You act like they are just executing every person they see
I know people over there. It is not like that at all.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #229
249. They are executing
Iraqis who are defending their own country from a foreign invasion. They call them 'insurgents'.
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swhisper Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #229
271. That is their standing order in Fallusia- Kill all
Forgot which General was recently quoted saying just that.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
30. I consider everyone who voted for Bush my enemy
Unless the media is lying, the military vote went heavily to Bush.

That makes them my enemy.

I feel sorry for the ones who have a brain and are miserable, but I no longer support "the troops" as a whole.
Sorry.

I was wasting a lot of sorrow and angst over each death, but found out I was just being foolish.

"BRING IT ON!" said Bush. And the insurgents brought it on. And the military chose to support him. So, they are getting what they wanted. What's to feel bad for?

Explain that to me.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
56. Re: "Unless the media is lying"
That's a real fucking laugh!

If the GOPers rigged the election in the US, what are the odds that they did it everywhere?

The war is Dead Wrong! It was from the start and so was Nam! It's not the GI's fault where he or she is sent, or why he or she is sent there! Unless your fuckin' Daddy is GHW Bush, you do as you are ordered to do, or you do ten years in Ft Leavenworth! Some of these kids MAY HAVE MADE A BAD CHOICE, when they joined the service! Have YOU never made a wrong choice?
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Does anyone have a copy of the UCMJ?
It would be nice for some to see what can happen to you when you violate a direct order. The miitary is a society to its own.

Leavenworth, big rocks into small rocks.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Yeah, right.
Lt. Calley ended up doing how much of his "life-sentence"? A week or so, maybe?

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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #65
81. Calley was the exception, not the rule
Yes, he only served limited time and was placed on house arrest at Benning. He received alot of attention from the media and I think that the leaders in charge wanted it to just go away.

I can assure you though that many like him are at Leavenworth now.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. If they are like him, they SHOULD be there!
My point is, that IF they voted for Bush, and at this point it looks like they DID, then they are getting exactly what they asked for. So they don't need my support. They are happy.

If it turns out that they voted heavily for Kerry, I'll start caring about them again.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Damn, black and white, just like that?
Playing politics with our kids on the ground. Sorry, but that's pretty damn shallow.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. How is it playing politics?
If you read my previous post, I was breaking my heart over every soldier's death over there, thinking that they had been misused and treated unfairly.

Now, it seems that they are doing exactly what they want to be doing.
THEY apparently are ok with it, why should I continue to fret over them?
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. How in the hell do you come up with the logic
that they "want" to be doing this????

During Gulf war 1, Poppy Bush was the CINC. I supported him because of his position. Only now do I realize my error.

Politics has no place in military service, it's a non-issue. It's only when they come back that they will speak out.

I'm sorry, but you have to live the life to understand it.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #106
138. This election was "black or white"
Bush or Kerry.

If they chose "Bush" (and at this point it looks like they did)then they made the choice to support what they are currently doing.

If it turns out that this is NOT true, and the military voted for Kerry, then I will very happily apologize.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #138
148. Fine, I'll give you the last word...
Maybe I'll rethink my own allegiences to this "Democratic" party and their "support" of the troops. This is very disheartening.

Sigh...
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #148
155. If you are going to leave the Democratic Party
over this argument you are giving up WAY to much of your own power to others.

Just because "I" say I no longer support the troops, because apparently they don't need my support, doesn't mean YOU have to leave!

If you still oppose Bush, we have way more in common than our differences!
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #155
158. Ok, I'm a "flip-flopper". I have to get some words in here.
All I'm saying is that the RW emboldens themselves with this so-called "support" of our military. This is fracturing us as a party badly.

I understand your dislike of the atrocities that are being committed in our country's name. It pisses me off too. However, the troops on the ground have no say in the way of policy making.

I have always been against this invasion of Iraq. Just please understand the mindset that these soldiers are trained with. War is their occupation, and they do what they are told. Granted, if we were directly attacked by another nation, I would be happy that they do what they do.

BTW, even if I was to leave this party due to the anti-troop sentiment, I would become a fierce independent. There is no way in hell that I would venture to the right. They're just plain evil.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #158
169. I agree with you about defense.
I am not a complete pacifist, although I would say that would be "ideal".
We do need a military. I believe that being in the military is an honorable occupation.

I am just very, very disappointed in "the military" for supporting Bush. It sends the message to me that they agree with his policies.
If they truly believe his lies, and that they really think that they are over in Iraq to protect America and democracy....well, I guess I feel sorry for them.

See? You've softened my position.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #169
172. Hey, there was no need to soften your postion,
I just was hoping that we could find common ground. Believe me when I say that military service does not equal a "war! war! war!" school of thought. Pacifism is a noble gesture and the ability to make war makes peace possible. I know that sounds ironic.

My heart aches for the folks over in the sandbox now. They really don'
t get to hear both sides and even if they could, it's hard for them to take a position either way.

Our conversation has made me think, and I thank you for it.


:-)
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #172
175. I thank you as well.
I do believe you, that military does not automatically equal bloodthirsty.

You have given me much food for thought. I'm glad we have found our common ground. We are going to need each other, these next few years.
:grouphug:
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Rush1184 Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:38 PM
Original message
You all make Lt. Calley seem like somone who refused to fight.
He was court-marshalled for supposedly ordering the My Lai massacre in 1968 durring the Vietnam War.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
236. The military put him away for life and Nixon, not the army, set him free
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swhisper Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #81
289. Not true. I sat weekly at Fitzsimmons with recooping troops,
and easily 40% were suffering mental distress and confessed participating in attrocities, including killing their own officers. Fitz had local gals stroll with these guys in the gardens as part of their therapy, and several patients committed suicide after being released, and some are still suffering those horrors today
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
86. Calley didn't get sent up for refusing
He got sent up for being an overzealous killer. If he'd refused to raze a village, he'd still be in prison.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. Wow, well THERE'S a compelling reason to support the military!
<sarcasm>

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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #92
193. Begin sarcasm?
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 05:25 PM by gtrump
Perhaps I didn't stretch the point long enough for you. Calley was put away for crimes against noncombatants. The types of things he did were not just overlooked but sometimes even encouraged by his commanders. It's apparent that these commanders and the top military brass believed what Calley did was OK since they bent over backward to shorten his sentence.

However, the most important thing to remember in all of this is that his accusers were other soldiers. They testified against him at his court-martial. They are the ones who had the conscience to shed light on a terrible wrong.

There are bad soldiers just like there are bad hairstylists, bad grocers, and bad computer technicians. The difference is, when soldiers fuck up, people die. That doesn't make every soldier bad by default...it just makes it all the more important not to send them to war for stupid or selfish reasons.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #193
194. The military is really good at setting up scapegoats...
...to cover up for generalized trends. They can then point to that one example and say, "See, we've taken care of it!"
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
235. The Military found him guilty---NIXON PARDONED HIM
The Military sent him away for life. It was Nixon who pardoned him against the JAG's wishes.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Here ya go...
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Thank you so much. Article 90 pretty much spells it out.
n/t
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Yeah, well, there's that little word "lawful"
This is an unlawful war.

Otherwise, we executed Germans unfairly.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #73
87. We won the war...we set the rules...
There were many who were unlawfully killed...there were many who were unlawfully allowed to live...

Geopolitics is ugly. And inherently immoral.
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #61
308. Check again.
Something worse can happen to you if you do not violate an order that is illegal, like wantonly murdering civilians.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. I agree the war is dead wrong.
And yes, I've made bad choices.

If it turns out that the military vote went Kerry, I'll start caring for them again. But as long as the evidence points that they think Bush should be their leader, well, I don't need to worry about them, because they're doing exactly what they want to be doing. And I feel justified in despising them for it.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
176. You can
turn your compassion and caring on and off like a light switch?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
232. That's the most Un-American thing I've ever seen posted here.
Period.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #232
326. Which part?
If you mean Bush voters being my enemies, well, hey....THEY'RE the ones who say Democrats encourage terrorism.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. Abu Ghrab. 100,000 Iraqi war dead.
Anal rape with a flashlight.
You can support the troops, that's your right.

The germans in wwii supported their troops too. In the end they were forced to walk through the camps and see first hand what they supported.

Are you ready to walk through Abu Ghrab?

Gott Mit Uns
Suport the troops.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
122. Holy shit!
Anal rape with a flashlight.
You can support the troops, that's your right.

Goddamn it, are you falling for the "few bad apples" shit again? This shit happened at Gitmo too. It was systematic and goes straight to the highest echelons of the DOD.

Go ahead, blame the troops for all of this. I am thoroughly sickened with the anti-military sentiment here.

I do appreciate your post though. Have a nice day.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #122
238. I am with you Nookie
This thread has thoroughly disgusted me. I have several good friends in Iraq, and many more in the service.
They are fine people and it pisses me the f*** off when these asshats try to claim they are baby killers and Abu Ghraib anal rapers.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #122
294. Like you and I....
The Troops can make their own decisions.

They can decide to follow bush into an illegal war and kill innocents, or like some others they can take the hard road , follow their consciense, and refuse to murder people who have never threatened them or you.

Which would you choose?

Should I be morally forced to support your decision, no matter how immoral and inhumane I consider it?

Should you be forced to support mine?

If you support "the troops" you give consolation and aproval to the crusade. I will choose to support the individuals that have decided that peace and life are better values than murder and distruction, be they troops or anyone else.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
38. Sorry, friend, but a war crime is a war crime and...
...a war criminal is a war criminal. Murder of civilians, raping of women, maiming children is wrong. Candycoating it and transferring the blame to somebody else doesn't make it right.

And, btw, I am speaking as somebody who decided enough was enough and got out back with Kosovo -- seeing the results of our surgical air raids changed my mind about it.

The only way to help these people is not to affirm what they do but to confront them with the horrible truth about what they've allowed themselves to become.

Face it, they've been trained to become murderers without conscience. "Mission first" means all is justified when the commander says it is justified. That is simply a sick culture.

Even if they learn to hate the shrubbery, they will still think that what "they do" is OK, if only we had the right CINC in office. Well, it isn't. Kosovo was wrong -- and Clinton was president. Iraq is wrong -- with a different administration. Why? It wasn't only a bad policy decision, it was evil actions on the field of battle. Face it, if there were no soldiers to support the policies, they wouldn't be able to implement those policies.

Sorry if you don't like it ... but reality ain't always pretty.
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. You can't blame every one for the acts of some
Period.

I don't mean this as fighting words -- but that's the same stilted reasoning the Dittoheads demean all Liberals.

I'm a Christian. You cannot blame me for or say that I'm a Fundy because of that. Sometimes the umbrella's are much too big to hold just one or two subsets.

Do not forget that it was a soldier who gathered the photo's and video and turned this whole nasty Abu Graib mess in!

Indeed a crime is a crime, and an abuser is an abuser.
But there are many different soldiers.

And indeed, many different 'Christians' :(
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Sure I can...
Just as the dittoheads blamed Kerry for not reporting war crimes during his time in Vietnam, I can blame witnesses for not reporting war crimes committed today.

Look, this isn't personal against any given soldier. I do not propose spitting on them and calling them dirty names.

I do suggest that they need to be confronted with the sickness of their chosen line of work. I do suggest that their chosen line of work is morally wrong. I do suggest that if they were involved in the murder of women, children, or unarmed men that they did the wrong thing. I do suggest that if they had knowledge of it and didn't report it -- to include to the appropriate international agency -- that they are as guilty as the person holding the gun or dropping the bombs. And I do suggest that, with knowledge that this kind of thing is going on, that they are culpable.

I do suggest that if they truly want to be heroes that they be heroes and stop the killing. They can simply say no. Yes, this might involve sacrifice on their part, but isn't that what a hero does? Disregards his personal interests and puts his life on the line for the "right" thing?
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
91. Your right to
your own opinion
And well put, I may add :)

On a side note to this, however, something that's been bothering me...

the soldiers who refused to do that 'suicide run'
well everyone got down on them, they HAD to follow orders, or court-martial and hard punishment, right?

Yet we prosecuted many 'Axis' soldiers in post WWII trials and convicted them in our contention that "Just following orders" wasn't a moral even legal defense.

Now I'm not saying that not delivering tainted fuel is akin to genocide, it's the entire concept that seems to be awry.

Or is MY logic faulty? Am I missing something?
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #91
109. No, you are right...
100%. When I was in we constantly had "Law of Armed Conflict" briefings and training sessions. We had it drilled into us that following orders was no excuse and unacceptable. Sure, the examples given were from Nazi Germany, but, you know...what's good for the goose is good for the gander. See, when I saw Lt Gen Short and Gen Clark intentionally targeting civilians during Kosovo (yes, I face-to-face saw them make those calls), I saw this as being evil. No, I am not defending Milosovic, either, but his crimes were not the fault of innocent Serbian civilians.

Well, I did what I could when I was in, and at the end of that enlistment, I got out. And started letting people know. Unfortunately, Kosovo was too popular a war and, the only people that would have cared that something wrong was happening were the repubs (as if they'd care about war crimes). All the dems in power would do nothing because, hey, Clinton was the CinC. So, there wasn't much that I could do. And I don't say that the soldiers here commit suicide, but there are a lot of folks that would take their eyewitness statements about war crimes and run with it. We need to let them know -- and that, my friend, would be truly supporting the troops.
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #109
162. Nobody ever brings the Winner to such courts
Witness the fire-bombing of Dresden. No German army there, nothing but civilians.

Witness the nuclear
--sorry, Bush "won": Nookular--
attacks on 2 large and completely civilian (aka non-combatants) Japanese cities!

Women and children and elderly. Oh my!


Nope the winner, hence the holder of the trials, is never brought to stand in the dock at these their own show trials!
As if we could properly and without bias police our own!
Oh wait -- *'s entire environmental legislation & policies have the energy companies policing themselves.... could * possibly be wrong?! /sarcasm

....hmmm, well that's a pickle. & not a 'pretty' one at that ;>

Oh well, we're all-mighty and we're the biggest on this terran block; and now we're a Christian nation on a Crusade, a downright Holy War
-- let's kill them all in the LORD'S NAME! --J Falwell

so obviously we're blameless.
Right?

But I can't help but wonder how powerful are we, exactly, when the rest of the world bands together against us?

And funny thing is, NOW we're NOT supposed to care about how we act towards our neighbors, towards the other countries of the world!
Good neighbors? Fug that, we're the US!
Thou shalt not covet..." DOUBLE Fug that! We need OIL, and while we're at it we'll take over the 2nd largest oil producing country AND OIL PRICES SKYROCKET
(Isn't America a great country?)
(For the rich?)


But who? There's the EU for one, and lots more to join them. Heck, even Mexico and Canada are growing in their hate for us as we roll back true Clean Air acts and irrevokably corrupt the continental --and global!-- weather and stormfronts! They are far from happy with our major exports of Acid rain, dying oceanic reefs, Global warming and increased (and permanent) toxicity of major watersheds, to name but a very few...

And oh yes, it IS happening, this hate from our once-Friends. Watch non-US news, BBC or most any other.
Maybe not so much Palau, but watch other news.

And --this point must be perfectly clear-- we have done all this, incurred all this wrath and hate,
all on our very evil own

It's time to be afraid.

There IS a Just God out there -- it's not just another empty, meaningless phrase like "Road Map" or "Hate us for our freedom"

Yes, be very very afraid.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #162
164. Unfortunately, you are right
the winner only spawns resentment from the oppressed. But we'll never learn that lesson.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
41. Propagandist bullshit...but you get an "A" for melodrama!
Unless you are sending "Care packages," or money to military families, or volunteering for ANY military or veteran support group, then you are NOT supporting the troops.

Having an opinion is just that, dearie....words. Cheap, and half the time, meaningless.

Stephanie
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. LOL...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:35 PM by getoffmytrain
Okay stephanie...

You're right... I've done nothing to support the troops... hell... there were times I forgot to brush my teeth. I guess that could count, right?

sigh... I don't take it personally. Have a nice Sunday.
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buff2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
43. Support the troops........
who overwhelmingly voted for Bu$h. Phuck that. I don't feel sorry for any of those people who supported that moron who put them in harms way for NO GOOD REASON,AND LIED TO THEM. I'm sorry,anyone who voted for that lying no good cheating bastard gets NO sympathy,respect or support from ME. No phucking way!
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
207. So its best to blame the victim?
They are the one's getting their asses blown up, and you have the gall to blame them? Fuck that, and fuck anyone who lacks the humanity to feel sympathy for young men and women being put in a horrible, horrible situation.

WE failed the military by putting a terrible government in place that misuses their sacrifices. Your bullshit doesn't help anything.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #207
208. They volunteered to go in...they aren't the victims
the Iraqis are their current set of victims. Not like there is a draft nowadays. Maybe first-termers I could feel a little sorry for, but only a little bit. They volunteered to go into the business of death. Anybody who has re-enlisted since our rape of Kosovo has no excuse.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #208
210. They volunteered to keep our asses safe.
And that makes the misuse of their sacrifices all the more tragic. If you think for one second that any significant portion of our troops are actually happy to be killing and dying, then you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

These are young men and women that deserve MUCH better than your scorn, and you should be ashamed of yourself for demeaning their motives.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #210
212. Does me being a 20 year vet change your opinion?
I had my eyes opened for me at 18 years (Kosovo). I got out the first chance I could thereafter. So I know exactly what the hell I'm talking about, friend.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #212
215. It shows you should know better.
When you were in Kosovo, did they ask you to give input on our foreign policy?

Or was it a product of the civilian government?
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #215
217. AIRSOUTH Naples 1997-2000
I saw the pix. The campaign was directed out of my building.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #217
218. Was that an answer to my question?
Because I don't really think that you were the one making policy decisions, unless of course you're actually William Cohen.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #218
220. Your question was:
"When you were in Kosovo, did they ask you to give input on our foreign policy? "

I was telling you where I was. And, yes, that was where the war was directed -- along with the CAOC in Caserme Ederle in Vicenza. So did I have input? Yes, and it cost me my career.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #220
222. I am glad you came back safe and sound.
Because I understand that you didn't make foreign policy decisions, and because I don't care to blame a kid for the failures of our civilian leadership.

Perhaps you should consider whether the troops in Iraq wouldn't rather be sitting in their living rooms right now playing video games instead of getting blown up.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #222
227. Thank you
but, understand this: When I saw the imagery from the airstrikes and I saw the video from Predator, it turned my stomach and opened my eyes (speaking of video games).

But, understand, I had misgivings about that conflict before we went in there. We acted like bullies from the start. And killed a lot of inncents

Panama didn't bother me, the Gulf War I didn't bother me, the only thing that Somalia did was piss me off and make me want to take out some "technicals." We were asked into Bosnia. I wasn't confronted with the truth then -- only the tactical facts.

If you read the bulk of my posts, you'll note that I believe that individual soldiers should be held accountable for wrongdoing. Soldiers witnessing wrongdoing and not acting are equally culpable. But I also believe that their training brainwashes them to not be able to distinguish right from wrong. The way to help them out is not to "support the troops -- it's all Bush's fault," (although yes, the military being deployed there is solely his fault). The way to help them out (in the long run) is to confront them with the reality of what their chosen -- CHOSEN -- profession is all about. The harm, the hurt, the death, the sorrow that they cause innocents as a result of their actions.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #227
230. You point is well taken, however
the answer isn't to put the load on the shoulders of young soldiers. The answer, in my opinion, is to put people in office who will honor their (your) sacrifices by only using them when necessary.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #230
240. Agreed to a degree...
...but our society worships the warrior culture. That is part of why the rest of the world is so uncomfortable with us. Shrub epitomizes this worship of the warrior culture. That's why he scares the hell out of the rest of the world. We need to change the culture. Part of this is to get the veterans (including the kids) to realize what they actually became a part of.

Got some news for you: college benefits are not the reason why the kids go in, for the most part. They had college benies for years. They have, for the past 15 years, turned people away. Why? Because our society, thanks to Mr. Rayguns, started again to worship soldiers. People like to have normal folks worship them. It feels good. Trust me -- I know. To have civilians come up to you and say, "thanks for keeping me free," is like no other feeling. Even if you know its bullshit, it still feels good. Getting military discounts and freebies is a great thing -- not so much for the money -- but for the fact that you are honored. Sure, the college stuff is nice (but they had it all throughout the 70s and early 80s too, and they perpetually couldn't get folks to come in). Sure the health care is nice (until you actually depend upon military care, but that's another story). Sure the shopping is nice, until you realize that you pay more on post than off post for stuff. Sure the travel is nice, until you realize that you don't have enough money to enjoy the environment and don't have the time, because of exercises or deployments. The reason why people STAY in is because it feels good.

They need to be dissuaded of that fact. We need to stop worshiping them in screen and song. We need to stop this BS of "hate the policy but support the troops." Yes, provide them human dignity. No, don't harass them or spit on them or whatever. But their business is to murder for whatever corporate interest is sponsored by the administration in charge. Murder or provide support so others in their "band of brothers" could murder.

Sound bitter? Good. I just don't want to see others get their brain screwed like how mine was for 18 years.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #240
251. What a great post
You are representative of what I was raised to believe the military stood for--honor above all else, asskicking only when it was absolutely necessary. How that concept turned into the bloodlust we see today is beyond my reckoning.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #251
257. You want to know who I believe?
Imperialist governments being driven by a media that has a "if it doesn't bleed, it doesn't lead" editorial policy. Either the gov't being driven by media coverage or media coverage encouraging an imperialist government acting on its own. The military largely kept the peace during the Cold War. But when we have a 1.5 million member military in a time with no superpower enemy, its budget has got to be justified somehow.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #207
233. US soldiers are the victims???
US soldiers - NOT conscripts, could make the (very very difficult and personally costly but morally right) decision to refuse to serve.

Iraqi people, can not leave Iraq no choice as to whether their home is blown up.

US soldiers occupying another nation

Iraqi's in their own country

US combatants deaths 1000.

Iraqi deaths 100,000.

Yes many soldiers are getting teh sharp end of a scary as shit neo con endless war wet dream, but I think I'd be saving the word "victim" for the Iraqis.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #233
237. Perhaps you are limited in your ability to see two groups
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 07:17 PM by Raskolnik
as being victims of the same policy, but I have no such problem. The kid that gets his legs blown off by a land mine under his Humvee is a victim of Bush's policies, as is the kid that gets his house blown up by a bomb my taxes paid for.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #237
243. only one had a choice of being there though
the option for the soldier wasn't pleasant admittedly but it wasn't even an unpleasant option for the kid. They are NOT the same thing, and if we were discussing the actions of foreign troops behaving this way in an occupation of the USA I very much doubt you'd think they were.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #243
246. So your alternative is?
What exactly? Lose civilian control of the military? Awesome! That's a fantastic plan!

What could go wrong with a military that decides piecemeal what orders from the C in C will be followed?

If you don't have the guts to take responsiblity for our terrible government, fine. But don't put that responsibility on someone halfway around the world that is a little more concerned with staying alive.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #246
267. Actually I wont take responsibility
for BUsh because (a) it didn't vote for him and (b) I'm not an American.

I will however take responsibility for the Australian troops there who despite several times refusing some requests made by US military command because they violated Australian codes of conduct during war I'm sure have been responsible for some Iraqi civilian deaths.

Second I never said anything about "loosing control of the army" I just said calling US troops victims is offensive to Iraqis.

I am also concerned with staying alive but in order for that to happen without me being involved in Imperial wars havn't joined the army.

I do not "blame" those that have and have NEVER said that ALL soldiers are war criminals but those who are get NO sympathy simply because they were "following orders".

Do you hold Nazi's who helped gas jews, communists, trade unionists, socialists, gypsies etc responsible even if they wer only following orders? or Japanese soldiers who brutalised people in POW camps? especially given thsoe soldiers would have faced death for disobeying rather than court martial - or is it just US soldiers who get the "get out of jail free" card?
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #267
272. Yes, in fact you did suggest just that
When you say that American troops have a choice about whether to be in Iraq or not, you are suggesting a military that is outside the control of the civilian government.

You don't get to have it both ways: either the military follows the orders of its civilian command, or the military makes its own policy decisions and supercedes civilian control.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #272
277. no I suggest
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 08:50 PM by Djinn
that soldiers disobey illegal orders as they are required to. The CHOICE they had was whether or not to JOIN the army in the first place, an army that for atleast 50 years has had nothing to do with "protecting Americans" I do NOT "blame" them for that simply stating the FACT that they chose to be soldiers ergo chose to go to whatever imperialist adventuer the powers next decided upon NO IRAQI HAD THAT CHOICE

I do not blame individual soldiers for the decision to go to Iraq - I blame the individual soldiers who committ war crimes. I'm also really over explaining this simple little thing to you.

I DO NOT SUPPORT WAR CRIMINALS? does not mean ALL SOLDIERS ARE WAR CRIMINALS

Can I make any simpler for you.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #277
290. Simpler, no.
More consistently, possibly.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #290
297. right
it is simple it is consistent.

I do not hold ALL troops responsible for the war crimes committed by some - I DO hold "blame" those responsible for them.

Not a single Iraqi had a choice to be in the firing line - US troops (because as far as I'm aware there's no conscription) did have a choice in regards to joining an army more known for war for profit than "freedom.

I do not think everyone who joins the army shares any blame but they are NOT victims, unless they're are completely unaware of US history -being ignorant is never an excuse.

PLease point out any inconsistency and it'd be nice (though not expected) that you hold US troops to the same level of accountability as you would presumably hold Japanese or German soldiers during WW2 (though they faced death not court martial)


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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #297
311. You say that you don't hold the average US soldier responsible, but
then you say that US soldiers knew that they were signing on with an immoral organization (paraphrasing) and should know better.

I disagree with that premise. Young men and women join the armed forces for a lot of reasons, and whatever you may think, ideals do play a part for many. The betrayal of those ideals by our civilian leadership is OUR responsibility as civilians, it should be fixed by US as civilians. Asking the military to make up for civilian failure is EXTREMELY dangerous and rather lazy, in my opinion.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #311
330. are you really this thick
I've said they should know better than think they'll be fighting for freedom but that I do not blame soldiers simply for being soldiers.

How many times do I have to post the same shit before you get it.

If some tourist walks into a redneck yokel bar and starts loudly talking about how AMericans are all stupid and that voting for George BUsh makes you a moron they should probably expect to get their heads kicked in - doesn't mean they deserve it, but if they didn't see it coming they need to think a bit more - same goes for getting injured during a war for profit if one joins a western army.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #330
332. Ah, our soldiers aren't BAD, they're just stupid
Glad you cleared that up for me.

I'm sure they appreciate that. Who said liberals were condescending, anyway?

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #332
336. jesus you REALLY are this thick
If a soldier joins up because he wants to protect Americans then YES he sure is stupid - name ONE cambat action in the last 50 years that the US has been involved in that protected Americans?? just ONE, MOST don't for those reasons as the recruiters will tell you - it's a paycheck it's access to education/training. None of these reasons mean the troops themselves are to blame which I've repeated AD NASEUM and you've chosen to ignore

As far as condescending goes - mote meet beam
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #330
333. Ah, our soldiers aren't BAD, they're just stupid
Glad you cleared that up for me.

I'm sure they appreciate that. Who said liberals were condescending, anyway?

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. this is NOT about politics, it's about MURDER...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 12:29 PM by mike_c
...in our names. Over 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by those "18 year olds" you seem to cherish so much. Most are not in fact innocent children. They're professional soldiers.

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
101. LMFAO!!!!!!!
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:12 PM by Hubert Flottz
Now there is the real deal! The people who were in charge of the POWs in this "War On Terra" are DAMNED SURE old enough to know better! If you want to blame the real CRIMINAL assholes, look up the chain of command!

I think this thread is somethimg to bait you DUers! But there may come a time REAL SOON, when you may find yourself in a position like the kids in Iraq find themselves! You may soon be in some shithole, regardless of where you choose to be! If the civil war comes to America and it very well could, I'd much rather have the troops with us, instead of against us! The people in this country just might decide not to take another election theft laying down! THINK about it!

If you are pissed off, and you should be, focus that rage on the REAL cause of the problems!

I love and respect you all! We MUST start sticking together!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
46. then the soldiers better take F*in responsibility
they dont get a free pass just cause they signed up for military.

they voted.

they have simply lost their way in the direction of emotion in this battle
crusade
satan
blow em all away

i mean they get to own some of this.

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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Hell, we don't know if they voted or not!
n/t
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. no we dont. we also know majority voted bush
and for those that are against and i say many, we check that out too. adn we keep struggling for even the stupid ass soliers that is gun ho thinking they are fighting a religious crusade.

what does god say about taking care of the fool. yes that is even our job. doesnt mean i am going to deny truth. i dont need to. i can still love the stupid soldier, that is christianity. see i defy anyone to challenge my connection to christ conscious. how many of you good people refuse to be told you are satan

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
78. two soldiers being brought up on charges of murder
there was a roadside blast. a lot of innocent people killed and wounded. came upon a badly wounded. a man picked up ak47 and shot the man. then another sodier started firing into the man.

they say mercy killing

what ever it is fucked up. our soldiers are fucked up. they eed help. the people they are murdering need help.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. Let me see if I remember the words...
Oh yeah, it was "Let the motherfucker burn!"
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. "Let the motherfucker burn!"
bring it on
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
52. What's your suggestion, then?
We are about to see unprecendented slaughter in Fallujah and elsewhere, with our tax money. I rarely agree with Osama bin Laden, but he's right on this one - we are all responsible, because we had an opportunity to vote against this and we did not.

So for those of us who are adamantly opposed to the killing of innocents, what are we to do? The vote is over. We have almost no power to stop this. But we can't sit by idly. That's immoral, in my opinion.

I am not ready to turn on the troops yet. But its time to reexamine our unequivolcal support for the troops in light of the current situation. Maybe we can just oppose further funding for this misadventure. I don't know the answer.

But at this point, continuing supporting the troops 100% is the same as supporting the killing. Or am I looking at this wrong?
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
54. Are you inferring
that we support all our troops? For instance: www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=sh...
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
63. We are responsible for two things at a minimum for our children...
. Always make a distinction between the soldiers and the brass.

The brass includes gung-ho superiors who pound bigotry into the heads of soldiers like calling people rag-heads and brain washing them politically or punishing them for their political positions.

The worst among them are those who profit from their deal making with corporations and politicians for toys that mean money for corporations with dubious value for the country. The money party of the DOD is shameful. Our soldiers don't have anything to do with Halliburton overcharging and the DOD not caring. Billions of dollars lost at the DOD and no investigations. A stealth Sharon person in charge of the DOD at the time of the disappearance and who has now gone back to his corporate job of making remote controls that can guide the largest and heaviest of our jets.

. We have a right to have a military for defense, not imperialism.

To not make distinctions is to bring on another reason for unthinking people to believe lies about us.

How can anyone not support a living son or neice?

We are not a country that sends out peace signals - it's up to us to figure out how long we ship out youth for imperialistic reasons and get back coffins and broken bodies and lives.

iow, direct our anger
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eurolefty Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. I will never support war criminals.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. "How can anyone not support a living son or neice?"
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:00 PM by mike_c
Every murderer is someone's son or niece. We put them in cages to protect the innocent nonetheless. Why should we treat the murderers of Iraqi innocents any differently?
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #84
107. I am totally opposed to sending anyone's son or neice into war = we all
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:22 PM by higher class
were taken by this regime. Those kids were there because of 20-30 years of being able to satisfy a need to go into the military and expect to come back. I can't support anyone who is there because they thought they were being given license to kill anyone. I am passionately against war. I am passionately opposed to the death penalty. I can't bear to think about all these youth who have had a 30 year belief that they could fulfill a military service and come back with their immune system, organs, limbs, families, hopes and dreams intact.

I detest the fact that the United States of America now exports killing for profit. It is a travesty that we are killing innocents.I have a signature linking the www.costofwar.com website.

I don't believe in any killing and I believe that the right wing does not have a right to speak peace, even if they could. They are directing a killing bath.

But, it is up to us to get those youth out of there - it is an impossibility that they can save us by quitting. I believe with all powers that they become brain-washed - and some were brain-washed through a culture of bigotry before joining. Most did not. But, they were raised with glorified military movies, games, and toys. We did it to them. We are partly to blame, mostly because those who knew that killing Iraq was for profit.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #107
206. Our entire society set them up by glorifying evil as good...
from Hollywood to schoolbooks to political statements like "we support the troops." What the hell have we done?
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
70. I used to be one. But I don't pity those who voted for Bush. They bought
it.

Posted a thread about a reserve guy who, about to get shipped back for a second Iraq tour, was LOOKING for Kerry voters to gloat in their face. Vicious.

No tears for that guy.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
72. kick
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Democracy Died 2004 Donating Member (366 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
74. What in gods name
says that the troops are sacred? You are telling me that we should worship them because they can see the carnage they are helping to create and remain silent? Hell maybe we should just give em the keys to the city and say thank you very much, we love the way you got used in the holy war. I respect the soldiers, airman and marines that come home and speak out against this American jihad. The other ones that mindlessly kill "rag heads" and cheer about it should go straight to hell.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
75. Mindless cannon fodder for the most part.
They join up, are partially or completely brainwashed, and do as they're told. Victims? No. Heroes? No. Villains? No.

Just like most Americans they are ignorant of what's going on beyond they're tiny sphere. They go along with the people around them so as not to stick out.

The "heroes" are the ones who pay attention and come to the realization that murder is murder, even if it's heavily larded with "patriotism". It takes guts to swim against the stream and refuse to follow "legal orders" that require you to kill other people. The Germans who massacred millions used the defense of "just following orders" - and those orders were "legal" under German military law.

I'm neither "supporting" them nor villifying them. They're just poor sad sacks trapped in a situation that they either can't get out of, or haven't the courage to defy (which is not to blame them).

As a young marine in Japan my squadron was ordered to pack up to go to Laos in 1963. Most of us didn't have an idea of where Laos was, or what we were to be fighting for, except the nebulous proposition of "fighting the Communists". Many were eager for the great adventure, some apprehensive, and all saw no alternative and didn't question it. Myself included. As it turned out, we didn't go.

To hate war and glorify the military is hypocrisy. To decry the deaths of innocent civilians while "supporting" the troops who are killing them is hypocrisy.

But, in the words of another anti-warrior, "Forgive them, father, for they know not what they do."








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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #75
150. Amen!!! n/t
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
76. Agree 1000%. You all need to shut your damn mouths about the troops.
People wave body counts in one hand and bash the soon to be dead (possibly) on the other. You don't know what these guys are going through, how they got there and if they're coming home. They didn't start this war, but they have to finish it. And you don't even want them to be able to pray for strength and solace!

For those of you who have never served, there is no "I don't want to play war today," provision in the contract. And, if you were serving and you sat back on your principles while your buddy's head was blown into a million pieces you are NOTHING.

I can guarantee you the overwhelming majority of these kids would rather be sitting right where you are - Fat, warm and happy in front of their computers with their family and friends around them, trying to decide if they should go to Burger King, or KFC.

George Bush has made a literal hell hole out of Iraq. Now it has to be fixed. Letting people continue to blow up our troops, saw off people's head with steak knives, kidnap Iraqi children, or to turn the country over to Osama bin Laden is not an option. If anyone thinks packing up and coming home is going to fix everything in Iraq overnight, you're wrong and if you want to blame anybody for this shit, put the blame right back where it belongs with George W. Bush and the PNAC.

My son and daughter-in-law are both in the military. My son was in Afghanistan and my daughter-in-law just got back from Iraq last month. They went because they had to and I'll tell you what, any of you little bastards say they deserve to die because of George Bush can kiss my FUCKING ASS! Keep it up, I'll renounce my membership in Democratic Underground and the Democratic Party. You can fight your war against Bush and the GOP without me.

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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. you said
it better than me, thank you.
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Kick Kick Fucking Kick!!
n/t
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #80
288. FREEPER ALERT
This is intentional to paint liberals as being against our own military. FUCK YOU RIGHT BITCH! You are the one who hates our soldiers. It's evident in the war you send them into. A major fuck up playing with our soldiers for some hair brained Neo-Con idea. PNAC... ever hear about them?
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. Don't take the words of a few as what we all think please. I am ready
to sign off Du also. I don't blame the DFL either. I know where the fault lies. We live in a society that not only condones violence, but promotes it. Look at the movies and games they put out. Kids play with GI Joe and tanks. They are told serving in our military is patriotic. Then the powerful few force them to participate in military actions that are amoral. Of course they do what they're told. They were trained to. That doesn't translate to condoning it or liking it. They joined to protect this nation against attack. They were used. As Michael Moore says will they ever trust us again? Yeah we are angry. Self destruction isn't helping.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. if you shut up about it, no one can help
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:03 PM by seabeyond
that is NOT supporting the trops. supporting the troops is seeing listening to what is happening. then and only then can problems be solved. i refuse to shut up. i owe these people, even the ones that dont believe i love them or are doing for them..............i owe them NOT to shut up
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. There is a big difference in speaking FOR the troops than against them.
Trained like dogs? Mindless cannon fodder? Deserve what they get? That's just on this thread. There are more. Look in LBN. People are belittling the Christian troops in there for fucking praying! This is ridiculous. I have never been this angry. If this is what our party is about, we don't deserve to win.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. so those so extreme on other side
we talk to them too. help them to understand their role too. we dont tell them to shut up
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #95
241. maybe they just think it's pointless
given that most of Iraq is praying they don't get slaughtered - God probably figures each side cancels the other out...or is "God" on "our" side?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
96. 100,000 dead Iraqis will celebrate your departure....
The "troops" you so fervently worship are engaged in ongoing crimes against humanity. Would you be so willing to overlook foreign occupation and murder in YOUR home town? Would you turn the other cheek and offer support for those soldiers just following orders and doing their jobs as they killed your family and destroyed your town? It wouldn't be their fault, after all-- they'd just be doing what their leaders demanded.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #96
105. I worship no one. I disagree with the war - always have - but when it
comes down to my kids (and 100k other mother's kids by proxy) and some motha-f'er on a message board says they deserve to die because their president sold them up the river? No. It don't play.

Maybe, you'd like to go to Iraq? Help straighten things out - without a gun, without fighting? No? Is it too fucked up for you? Point made. Somebody's got to fix it. Remember the pottery barn rule?

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. the pottery barn rule belongs at the pottery barn...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:25 PM by mike_c
...not as the basis for making geopolitical and foreign policy judgements. And As I've said elsewhere, every murderer is some mother's kid. We still lock them in cages.

Soldiers get a pass when they behave honorably, in defense of their nation and the principles upon which their nation is founded. When they act as murdering thugs and enforcers for a blighted foreign policy in support of geopolitical greed, they're war criminals. Same skills, applied for radically different purposes. What about those 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians? Did they deserve to die? Did their mothers and husbands deserve to lose their sons and wives?
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. So what's your solution? You've got one I suppose. nt


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #114
126. immediate withdrawal and MASSIVE reparation payments...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:48 PM by mike_c
...made through the U.N., probably in escrow until someone steps forward with a credible recovery plan and documented cooperation on the ground. That might take years. Bleed the American treasury (and start by confiscating the personal and corporate fortunes of everyone involved in selling the invasion and occupation) to the point where the various parties involved in the region and internationally will have to take notice and consider setting aside their personal differences. Maybe, if we're lucky, Europe will respond with a "Marshall Plan" to help us recover. This is what the U.S. deserves, IMO. We have betrayed the trust the world placed in us after Nuremburg. We have become the aggressors.

Prosecute all civilian and military leaders who supported, planned, conspired, and executed the invasion and occupation, preferably by international tribunal.

That's a start.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:54 PM
Original message
Oh, if only...
The odds of all that happening are, of course, slim, but I agree across the board. Those things would finally put an end to much of what is wrong with us right now, and would probably reestablish our international connections.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
144. This has been discussed before...
...and the consensus is that it won't happen. Of course I agree that it won't, but it could very easily.

Too bad the corporate whores run both parties in this country.
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ROC Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #126
186. I can see the Koffi Anan clan rubbing their hands over this looney tune!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #186
260. Fine, soldier
We can do it now or we can do it thirty years from now. Take your pick
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #126
259. I like that, mike_c
Seems so obvious
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #105
245. Someone's gotta fix it???
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 07:34 PM by Djinn
what on earth makes you think that the US or the COW can do that - the majority of the country doesn't want foreign troops there - they don't agree with the oil contracts you've locked them into, they don't support the "interim PM" - do you honestly beleive that when the US finally leaves (in maybe ten years time) the Iraqi's will happily keep the Imperial laws set down for it by a puppet government? History shows that just isn't going to happen. Perhaps if we were still in the days of the Cold War the Iraqi's would get to see a democratic and free nation sprout from the seedlings planted by the US (ie Japan and Germany post war) in this day and age there is NOTHING for the US to gain from a free Iraq - that's why they supported Saddam for so long.

This isn't a pottery barn it's a COUNTRY. People said the same crap about Vietnam "we have to fix it" you didn't you fucked it up almost beyonf recognition - THEY sorted it out themselves afterwards, maybe not to your liking but it wasn't up to YOU to decide that
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
98. There is a HUGE difference between holding them accountable...
and wishing for their deaths. I have not seen anyone on this board say that they desired the death of any of the soldiers. That simply has not happened in any of the threads I have seen. Now, accountability is an entirely separate issue. Shoud the soldiers be held accountable for their actions? I say yes, especially in light of our historic destruction of the concepts introduced as the Nuremburg defense after WWII. What is good for the goose...
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #98
374. Nuremberg applies only to OTHER people, Mikimouse!
Not to us! Not to us! :eyes:

It's worth noting that one of the charges at Nurmeberg was the crime of resorting to "aggressive warfare". It wasn't all about what went on at Auschwitz, horrific as that was.

One thing that has really struck me is that the people who demand that we "support the troops" (a phrase always left undefined) consistently assume that anyone who doesn't "support the troops" must necessarily feel that they deserve to die.

That says FAR more about these demagogues than it does about the supposed non-supporters. Perhaps they are afraid of the moral judgement that is in their own hearts, and they have to project this onto other people in order to live with it. What other explanation is there?
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #76
99. Sorry for your kids...
...but it doesn't change the facts. And I am speaking as somebody with almost 20 years in when I said enough is enough in regards to Kosovo. If your kids recognize the truth and they aren't doing everything possible to get out, then they are professional soldiers going there with their eyes wide open. If they are doing what they can to get out and hopefully to expose the lies for what they are, then my sympathies fully go out to them.

I realize that there is currently involuntary servitude going on right now with "stop loss" (and any administration, not just this one, is willing to do that if they need extra troops to support their immoral policies), so I recognize that they might not be able to separate when their hitches are up. But they can still try. There are waivers out there.

Best regards,
A little bastard (USAF, ret.)
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #99
112. They are trying to get out. How many of the guys on the ground in Iraq
you think they're letting out right now? Well, you said it - stop loss. Some people here act like they have a choice in the matter.

Oh, and by the way, they both voted for Kerry. I noticed on some posts in this thread that's a criteria for deserving to live, so I thought I'd throw that in there.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Kewl...in that case I feel for them...
I have a hard time feeling for those who re-enlist while in theater or who, after their initial tour either there or Afghanistan, still feel good about their jobs.


But I know from experience how powerful the brainwashing is, particularly until it bumps up against reality.

Your kids are in my prayers. I hope they can do something for a stop loss waiver. They do happen. Not all that often, but, they really can.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #117
146. Throngs of them are re-enlisting, right? That's why we have stop-loss
programs going on. That's why the military can't make their recruiting quotas. That's why the Army is calling back a man who was discharged 13 years ago, along with thousands of others who are doing whatever they can to keep from going.

Yep. They're all war-hungry mongrels. I see them lined up at the recruiting station. Not.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #146
153. I can only pray that you're right...
...but what I've seen shows that most of the services are making their re-enlistment goals. They may have to use high enlistment bonuses, but they are making their numbers. I wish it wasn't so, but I've seen no evidence to the contrary.
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prayin4rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #76
110. I agree--you have no clue what these people have gone through.
I am disheartened by the fact that the military supports *Bush. But, we cannot claim to understand the beliefs these people must cling to when they have seen their friends blown to bits and know they may be next. I think the military and the country they are sworn to protect share an interesting relationship in that, it is their responsibility to protect us, and it is our responsibility to protect them, by not voting in murdering fascists. Bush's* re-election is not their fault, it is our fault, and THEY and those they are ordered to kill will be the ones to pay the price for our failure.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #76
120. I feel your pain!
Believe me!
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #76
151. err excuse me
but we are the invaders.

Those people are doing what anyone , including our own military would do, if we were mercilessly invaded, shocked and awed--fight back with whatever way they can to save their families and their homes--and there is nothing that spurs on the fighting spirit than that passionate resolve of fighting for one's home and country. Further you may want to know something about the culture in the ME. Beheading and cutting off hands is to them just punishment, even though it is revolting to us. They do it all the time in Saudi Arabia.

I am sorry for the mess and the trauma to the families, but, I do not and cannot support the "troops" and the slaughter and I cannot consider them heroes.

No one is saying they deserve to die--I am saying I withdraw my grief and involvement, something I participated in daily, hanging out the tally of our fallen soldiers daily and printing out the name of a fallen soldier daily and displaying it on my lawn daily. Cost me a new printer, and I don't know how many cartridges of ink and I am not rich. I believed they were victims of an insane man and propelled on their way becasue they entered the military for a better life and for economic reasons, but the vote changed all that.

It is not up to me to grieve and wring my hands and cry for them because they want it! The "troops" support Bush.

Don't hollar at me--go to the troops and hollar at them.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #151
228. So what you're saying is every troop voted for Bush and ergo deserves
no consideration? I'd like to see the statistics on that one. How do you know they even got to vote? Do you remember the stories about how their ballots would not be secret and their votes would be faxed to the US?

The troops are a reflection of this country. Management typically votes Republican and the rank and file go democratic. I wonder how many of the rank and file in Iraq got their voices heard?

My kids didn't vote for Bush, but under your logic they are meaningless now. I guess the statistics were only important when they offered you political ammunition. Now the election's over, fuck the troops? How non-hypocritical.

Also, just to get this out, since you and others think I think the Iraqi deaths are somehow less important. I don't blame the Iraqis for rising up against us. I'd do the same thing. We all would. This war is FUCKED but, guess what? The troops didn't start it.
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #76
201. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Don't leave.....most people at DU (I hope) do NOT feel that way.
:kick:
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #76
221. I hope they came back safe and sound.
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 06:53 PM by Raskolnik
Don't think for a second that the assholes blaming the troops for this situation represent a majority of liberals. They are just the ones living down to the stereotypes.

I think now is an important time for Democrats. We can let dipshits like those turning on the troops take the spotlight, or we can make it clear that their bullshit is neither needed nor wanted by our party.

Thank your family for me, and if its not too much trouble, give them my apologies for our shitty CinC.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #76
239. so if a couple of individuals
on DU who may not be Democrats, may not even be Americans say whatever they feel like about troops you'll give up the Dem's altogether?? gee that's staunch.

No-one here has said all soldier are criminals or they all deserve to die, people DO have a problem with blind automatic "support our troops" why would doing that be any different to the thouasnds of Germans who "supported" theirs while they loaded people into cattle trains.

Troops are made up of individual people, there are some that actively engage in illegal conduct and even enjoy it (although technically the whole war is illegal) there are some who engage because they're too timid or stupid to say no, there are some who never see any overtly illegal acts, there are others who put themselves in harms way and destroy their careers and open themselves up to ridicule because they REFUSE to be part of a war crime.

They don't all deserve the same amount of respect as far as I'm concerned and if that makes you leave the Democratic Party then I'm sorry for the Dem's.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #76
255. actually they didn't have to go
here's one who didn't

http://www.freecamilo.org /

Afghanistan is not Iraq. Very few DUers criticize the invasion of Afghanistan and what we are doing there.

In Iraq we are murdering men and women for defending their own country from a foreign invasion (just like you might, if the US were invaded). Do those Iraqis deserve to die either?
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #255
258. That is a very brave young man.
Because of his stand for his conscience, he qualifies as a hero in my mind.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #76
373. I will not persuade you to stay
They went because they had to and I'll tell you what, any of you little bastards say they deserve to die because of George Bush can kiss my FUCKING ASS!



I don't remember anyone saying that anybody "deserves to die", and no one is going kiss your "FUCKING ASS". Behave yourself, please.

I for one will never support what is going down over there. If that frosts your ass, then it frosts your ass. You have not been wronged by any of us.

The only thing that I ask is that no one distort what I say. But I recognize that people typically resort to slander and demagoguery when they can't justify their position by any other means. That is too bad, but of course it will continue. Who expects better?

What we are doing in Eye-Rack is not making us any safer. The more we continue, the deeper we dig ourselves in, and the more likely we are to suffer some horrid revenge at the hands of some horrid person. I worry about that every single day. It is unreasonable -- and even grotesque -- to expect anyone to feel grateful for this.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
93. john kerry spoke the truth. he was a soldier. he killed
does anyone remember this
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #93
103. and he was also a war criminal by his own admission...
...the difference is at least he, at one time, had the balls to say what needed to be said and, until he decided to run for Pres, to do what needed to be done to keep the war dogs at bay. I give him massive credit (up until the late 90s) as being a tremendous force for peace.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #103
118. So, how many of these "war criminals" deserve to die before they get
their chance to tell the world the truth?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. kimber i think we have been the people to support those 7
blaimed for all of the torture to do. we are the party that say let them speak.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Personally, I think every war criminal deserves to be punished
for his crimes. How many of the troops are going to tell the world the truth? The majority have been brainwashed into thinking that what they are doing is holy and right. They don't think about maimed children...they think about collateral damage. My God that is sick.

No, it is a very rare troop who will have the wisdom to see the war for what it is and the balls to do what Kerry did when they come back. If there was even a single one who would have the courage to do so and the courage to let his name be known, don't you think that they would be lionized by our leadership?

But I don't recall seeing even a single former soldier speak out in a national, public forum. (like a armed services committee session). Its nothing but brainwashing. Very effective brainwashing.
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #121
143. You haven't heard because you haven't listened.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #143
157. So those are lovely stories
but complaints about the chain of command? or about war crimes? Didn't see any in there (only complaints about the policy). Even if they are there, it doesn't matter if they are on some web site, they need to get out to the public and to the lawmakers of either party. And then we need to see our leaders, like Pelosi, Kucinich, Boxer, Kennedy, and others who have voices publicizing them. Then it might make a difference. Until then...just another web site. Sorry Kimber.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #118
247. who said they deserve to die
or would you be mis-characterizing the opinions of those on this board in order to make hyperbolic statements?
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
113. Those posts are out there
I've read them and I've become extremely pissed off. I feel like an outsider in my country -- over half of which voted for Bush and have become Christian fundamentalists. Now I feel like an outsider on DU -- so many say "fuck the troops" and piss and moan like crazy when someone disagrees.

To me, it is immature to say, "they voted for Bush, screw them". Wow. How inhuman. Large numbers of the Iraqis we've killed supported Saddam Hussein, does that mean I think they deserve to die? No, yet I think Saddam was evil.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. they you think a lot of these people who say that
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:33 PM by seabeyond
have been feeling for three years the pains of these humans. and that sometimes they get to point of fuck their stupidness. iverwhelmed.

i mean if we can be a little compassionate and reality based. we knew these people fought for the soldiers and iraqi's lives for three years. and tried to protect and save their lives with a vote for kerry. we know,............they do not say fuck the troops. even if in anger they say it. do you think they get pretty pissed that if they say anything to a bush supporter they are told they do not support troops, they are un american. when they see what they are fighting for is ultimately the grandest in supporting those troops. could that be offensive to them
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #115
124. I realize people are overwhelmed
Do you think I just got here? I am not "reality-based"? I marched in anti-war protests. I've been told I don't support the troops and I am unamerican. I've hated Bush since day one. But as the wife of a soldier who fought in Iraq, I know that so many soldiers did not support Bush. And some that supported Bush but do not support the war (misguided, yes).

If they have a right to say "fuck the troops", then I have a right to say, "that's fucking immature and lame". Why do people go on and on about having a right to say something like that, but tell people that disagree to "shut up"?

And I'm really tired of calling everyone "stupid" all the time. Don't agree, fine. But I have a right to say it.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. you absolutely do and i will take it a step further
you have more right to be heard. and i hear you. yes, i agree it is fuckin immature and lame.........but that is all it is. some may not be concerned with the lives but i gotta feel the strong majority, that is what thye are yelling out, their concern

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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #127
134. thank you
I just wanted to get it off my chest. Now I am gonna go watch some football and watch people beating the crap out of each other for fun. I feel like doing the same to release some of the frustration that has building up since Nov. 2nd. :)
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. lol lol lol
ya..........thank you
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livinbella Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
116. I do not support the majority of our troops in Iraq
In no way shape or form.
What in hell has happened to personal integrity?
No man has the right to say "I am not to blame for the
things I have done."
I do not support the majority of our troops.
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bostonbabs Donating Member (465 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #116
131. Scum in the White House
Most of these soldiers are victims....I was for the war after I heard Powell speak before the United Nations....let us not forget...most of us were behind this until we found out about the LIES that got us there.I say these men have been duped and many of them are confused by what they hear.These are not educated men...that's why there there!The Joint Chiefs are not happy ,they are better than this...they know it and know too that with Wolfowitz,Bremmer,Cheney,Rumsfeld etc....they had no say in the matter.
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TexasLady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
125. I REALLY need to speak my opinion here...
Ive often talked about my nephews..I think I have said that one of them leans rw, and the other lw...to give a little perspective.

When the one leaning left was younger, about 16, he got into a little trouble. His dad was a cop in the town, and made a deal with the judge that if his son promised to join the NG after he graduated high school, like the dad and the other son, that he would then have an unblemished record. So, judge granted it, and right after graduation, he was headed for boot camp.


Now they are all over there, and all are doing one thing over all else... Watching each other's asses so that they all come home safe.

My nephew is over there, not because he likes or voted for this admin. but because he has a dad and a brother that he wants to make sure come home safe. Just as many there feel the over whelming desire to stay, agreeing with the war or not, to cover each other's butts there.

Luckily they are at a place where the fighting is minimal. Either way, Alll I want is to see them home safely. period.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. I don't believe that anyone would disagree with you on that...
and I am frankly at a loss to understand where the accusations of wanting the tropps dead comes from . I cannot find any evidence of that anywhere, but perhaps I have looked in the wrong places. I wish your relatives well and hope that they come home safe and in one piece.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
128. You're talking about the rantings of a few posters...
...and intimate that ALL of DU thinks this way. My question would be: why are you trying to disseminate RWing Talking Points?

- We'll 'control our anger' if you control your bullshit.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. I said
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 01:52 PM by getoffmytrain
"a portion of DU". Did you even bother to read the post?
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #132
177. You're still generalizing...
...and your RWing talking point about the left not 'caring' about the troops is the focal point of your argument.

- If you have a beef with posters who say things you don't like...then bring it up with them. Stop stereotyping DUers and Democrats.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #177
180. No..
I am not generalizing.. Had I addressed my post to the 'DU community' I would be generalizing.

I did not say 'all DUers' because it isn't all, I did not say 'a majority' because it isn't a majority, I said 'a portion' because that's what it is. I never said the 'the left' nor 'democrats' in the entire post. Again, did you read it?

I did bring my beef up with them, that's why I directed the post to 'the portion' that I mention.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
130. I cannot and will never
support any part of such a sick enterprise. I do not support the troops whatsoever. Their actions are their actions alone, and they are wholly responsible for that. I sympathize with their situation, but I will never support such injustice.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #130
136. i dont/cannot/willnot support the action either
this is war. and this is a fucked up war. adn i wnat those boys home, and i dont want them to be experiencing what they are. and for me, that is supporting them
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Cyrix Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
133. You claim to have been in iraq
Evidence?

Any one can make such a claim on the internet. I'm Tony Blair.

It is usally a certain type of person that claims being critical of bush and his use of the troops as "turning on our soldiers"....

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puddycat Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
137. So, how many military would you like to die before we can speak up???????
I lived through Vietnam, and believe me, attitudes like yours are what caused the mythology of that war's rightness to continue. We weren't supposed to speak out. We always had to "support the troops" which was just another way of saying "support the war machinery of death". The ONLY way to really support the troops was to stop the war.

So, I ask of you, how many people should die before you think we should be allowed to dare criticize what is going on?

10,000? 50,000? 100,000?

By enabling the lies about why they fight etc. you are doing more harm than good.

We have to start telling the truth. The truth hurts like hell sometimes but the truth is the ONLY thing that can save more thousands of military from getting killed.



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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #137
140. I don't disagree with your feelings on this matter,
but put the blame where it belongs.

Until we hold these traitorous bastards in the white house and DOD accountable, we will lose more of our kids. Plain and simple.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #140
145. Sorry to interject but it is a cultural thing...
yes, the ultimate blame belongs on either bank of the Potomac, but there is an ingrained sick culture that these people are brainwashed into. Until we expose it and get the kids to confront themselves with the reality of what they've become, the culture won't ever change.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
141. Just hit the alert on the egregious posts and can the drama
I feel for troops over there but they DID have a choice. Yes there is a cost to going AWOL and to desertion, but that cost is no more than the cost to one's own soul when they murder an innocent person.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
142. The percentage olf DUers who are 'attacking soldiers' ...
are miniscule .....

They probably amount to a similar percentage as those who despised the AWB or support Sharon's Likud ....

VERY VERY few of the whole ....

So let's not make a mountain out of a molehill ...
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
147. They get propaganda 24-7, guys.
My brother-in-law who lives on base can't even read the BBC's website for news. It's blocked. They get Fox News, round the clock. And when they turn on the radio, they get Rush Limbaugh.

They're completely brainwashed. A friend of mine came back from the Marines a couple of months ago talking about the WMD they took from Iraq. When I told him that no WMD was found, he did not believe me. We argued about it for an hour at least.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #147
160. we know this, many have lived a lifetime being brainwashed
thru religion. add that with lies, 9/11=sAddam, the army brainwashing they have to do just to get a person of killing another human being. we are compassionate to all that. they are under zillion times more stress to protect themselves because of where they are. we see it in the people in this country that are not even in danger.

we know they are being brainwashed. why the 7 werent the ones to get finger pointed at. pay for crimes, ok, society has to decide that, but squarely put this on the higher ups for not taking care of the soldiers, so they wouldnt go in this direction
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. And that's why we need to confront them with the truth
just like a brainwashed cultist, they need to have the truth shoved in their faces. When they realize what they have actually wrought, some will realize how they've been lied to.

"Supporting the troops" helps enable them to live the lie.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #161
165. i rather do it in love and grace, being a mom
how i would do it with my boys and as far as spirit goes, lol lol doesnt matter if you are 5 20 50.........doing it in love and passion is much more effective lasting and gentler.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #165
170. no argument, but it needs to be done one way or the other n/t
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
149. There are some, but not many, people on DU that are either:
1) Freepers; or
2) America-hating nihilists.

They can go straight to hell either way.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. opposing the murder of innocent civilians = hating America?
Are you familiar with the description "good German?"
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #152
357. You have no idea which people I'm talking about.
Hint: they find the murder of innocent people excusable.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #357
369. ok-- I guess I don't understand who you were referring to....
eom
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Cyrix Donating Member (113 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
154. I find this cute
You want DUers to not judge all soldiers by the actions of a few. (I agree)

BUT - what is truly ironic - at the same time you judge all DUers by the views of a few. Funny how that works isn't it?
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. Hey, I never supported this goddamn war in Iraq,
but for some DUers to instantly put the blame on our soldiers is at the very least, revolting.

Sorry, just my $0.02.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
163. I served in this war
Ask me anything.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #163
166. tell me everything.........wink
i will listen
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Lots of the military are fed up
But calling them names isn't going to get them to vote Democratic. Those people are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Funny thing is, if we had a true anti-Iraq war candidate (like Howard Dean), I think the military would have voted for him in droves.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
167. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
truhavoc Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #167
188. It is only *'s choice to "murder for oil"
Otherwise it could mean a court martial for those who disobey. It is a job for these young people in the armed forces, they deserve our best wishes regardless of the misguided policy that put them in that situation. The policy is on us as voters and citizens!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #167
209. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #209
211. They were all volunteers...
and a lot of them volunteered to re-enlist. This is not the first atrocity committed in recent memory. The rape of Kosovo was a good precursor. Sorry, but their eyes are wide open. And, while they'd have a hell of a time getting out now, nobody forced them to raise their right hands.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #211
213. Ah, I see...
So because they volunteered to put themselves in harm.s way to keep us safe, they deserve no sympathy when they are misused and put in a horrible situation?

When they volunteered to serve, they did so expecting that the civilian government would only put them at risk when necessary. We failed them, and now you want to blame them for our shortcomings.

That's some flawless logic.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #213
214. See my post 212
Yeah, they volunteered and enjoyed it. Sure nobody enjoys a long deployment, but, unless their eyes have been opened they take great pride in their operations, including the ones where there is no justification...because their bosses tell 'em that it is good for them to murder civilians in the name of world peace.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #213
223. Most don't join the army to keep anyone safe
they join for a paycheck, a chance to get an education or learn a trade skill, some join for adventure and unfortunately some join to get to kill people - note I said SOME.

When was the last time US forces were deployed overseas in comabt roles to "defend" the US - did the Viet Cong ever threaten the US, did I miss that? did handing Kuwait back to it's unelected rulers make the US any safer of the people of that land any freer? When Serbia was dealing with it's homegrown Islamic militants (NOT a supporter of Milosevic but the fact is Bush has come down harder on Muslim people which MUCH less reason than Milosevic had) did it effect the US or it's people??

If you know of any idealists joining the US (or any western nation's) army to "serve freedom" etc try and talk them out of it because they will be fighting for corporate profit and empire - like always.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #223
225. What's your point?
We have made terrible use of our troops sacrifices in the past, so we should blame the troops?

People join up for all sorts of reasons, that is true. That does not excuse the bullshit that people are heaping on those young men and women, however.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #225
253. where did I ever state
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 07:57 PM by Djinn
that I "blame the troops"

I said I do not see them as "victims" I think that's highly offensive to the millions of occupied Iraqi's and the 100,000 dead.

I said I DO blame those who invlve themselves in overtly illegal acts - and I do not care whether or not they "following orders" just like I don't care about the Nazi's who loaded people into carriages, operated the gas chambers etc I honestly don't give a shit why someone finds themselves in the position of raping a prisoner it's WRONG - if YOU want to defend those people fine - I can not.

The troops who try to do their best to act decently (I'm not a pacifict I don't expect anyone to not fire back when fired upon even IN an illegal occupation) who enlisted for whatever reason I wish them the best of luck in coming home in tact.

But I can not agree with the "support our troops" banner as it means supporting a lot of indescribable horror willfully committed by people who should know better.

As for the point about "protecting" well I thought it was pretty obvious - I seriously doubt if any serving soldiers signed up thinking they were "protecting" anything if they did they have an exceeding poor grasp of history and I'm afraid they are most likely to fall for the bullshit being fed to them about what they're up to in Iraq, stupidity isn't a crime but it can exacerbate the likihood of one being committed
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #253
279. oh please....
Because I don't think its appropriate to blame troops on the ground for our foreign policy, I must be defending Nazi rapists? Take your hyperbole elswhere if that's the best argument you can make.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #279
293. After WWII, the allies were amazed at the response of the people of Dachau
They claimed that they had no idea of what went on in the concentration camp. The soldiers were just following orders. The citizens had no idea what was going on.

They forced those citizens, to a man, to walk through the camp.

Just following orders is not an excuse.




See a difference?
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #293
296. Wow. Just wow.
Every war, whether just or unjust, produces images like that that poor child. If you find someone who doesn't weep at the thought of that child's suffering, I'll show you a son of a bitch.

This war was wrong. Our troops didn't decide to engage in this war, our civilian leadership did. Those troops aren't fighting for Lebensraum, they are fighting because our shitty leadership ordered them to. If you want to sit there and equate American troops in general with Nazis, as you unquestionably did in that post, then you really don't have a good understanding of history.

Really, try to make your case without resorting to Nazi hyperbole, if you can. Its childish and rather counter-productive.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #296
299. No, you missed the point...
the point is that War (not this war, not another war, but war in general) is wrong. War brings out the lowest common denominator. People can be in denial but it is horrible. How many pictures of how many kids are needed?

Guess what? the shrub didn't blow that kid's arms off. the shrub sent the troop over there, but you know who blew the kid's arms off? a soldier. He may have been following orders (given by another soldier) properly -- targeting the civilians or he may have been incompetant -- and missed the target. But he is the one who did that. Yes, Bush* sent him over there to do it and bears that responsibility.

What they are told is that the kid is "collateral damage." That looks like a noncombatant being hit by US weaponry, to me. Whether he was hit as the result of incompetance or intent, its wrong. Yes, Bush* should be held responsible for sending the troop there, but is the troop that did that without culpability?

Oh, and as to the Nazi analogy (and no it wasn't hyperbole):
- the soldiers were only following orders
- the civilians supported the troops and didn't ask the hard questions

Yes, 100,000 is not yet 6,000,000. But, give it time. And, no, I'm sorry. But the attitudes I'm seeing here are the same "head in the sand" attitudes that the German populace used back in their day. The American people are in denial. The soldiers are in denial. They need to be brought to reality.


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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #299
305. Of course war is wrong.
And that's why it should only be engaged in as a last resort, which I think we can agree was not the case here. We also agree, I believe, that this war is wrong and the policy that drives it needs to be altered dramatically.

OK, lets see where we really differ:

I believe that it is unfair and unwise to ask the troops to counteract bad foreign policy decisions by civilian leadership. To do so leads to two possible outcomes: (1) the military resents (justifiably) those that demean their service and public opinion shifts away (justifiably) from those blaming the military for civilian failure, or (2) the military takes your advice and makes its own policy decisions on what orders are worth following, and we devolve into a military dictatorship.

I honestly believe those are the only two possible outcomes for what you are proposing.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #305
310. Close...
Tactically, your # 1 may be right. Strategically, hopefully we can de-glamorize the military so that it is no longer considered desirable. And then hopefully a truly progressive government can gain power -- and reduce the military size to what it should be: the size needed to defend the borders of the country, no more, no less. (And considering who is at our borders, how much defense is necessary?)

There is no reason for us to have troops anywhere in Europe, anywhere in Southwest Asia, anywhere in East Asia. No justifiable reason. We do not need a million and a half man army. No justifiable reason. We do not need to have a Pacific Fleet or a Med Fleet. No reason. We need enough to defend our borders. That's it. Period.

But the general mind set needs to change before this can happen. The first step for that is for soldiers and citizens to realize, "OMG, What have I done?????"

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #310
313. hmmm
"But the general mind set needs to change before this can happen. The first step for that is for soldiers and citizens to realize, "OMG, What have I done?????""

I think that may be a slightly different, broader issue, but I think my main point is that scorn and blame from civilians is NOT the way to accomplish that.

Not that you were necessarily doing that, but an unfortuante number of people on this thread and other are.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #313
316. delete -- dupe
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 10:26 PM by markomalley
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #313
317. Look...here's the deal:
I just want their eyes to be opened...it is a cultural issue with the soldiers and the culture needs changing. But the culture runs deep and is constantly reinforced by civilian society.

Look, my problem is this: "I don't support the war but I do support the troops" sends a mixed message. How about this instead:

"God protect them from the enemy and from themselves. God protect the innocents. Bring the troops home soon."

or for those who are more agnostic in their beliefs:

"Good protect them from the enemy and from themselves. Good protect the innocents. Bring the troops home soon."

I think we can all agree on that motto.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #317
319. No disagreement there
But I do maintain that those that DO wish harm to our troops, or callously disregard their suffering, need to be countered strongly. If we don't do that, then the Republicans are right when they tell voters that we don't care about the military.

I don't want Republicans to be right.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #319
320. That would require a complex mental construct to be built...
...clearly beyond the mentality of most Republicans. They can't be right because they can't understand complex thought.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #319
321. another stinking dupe...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 10:34 PM by markomalley
i really must learn to click only once :grr:
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #279
303. so do you absolve all troops
because of "following orders" or not - by your ranting response I'd guess you don't "apologise" for German soldiers - I don't view US soldiers as unnacountable either. Sorry if that pisses you off - actually no I'm not
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #303
307. I believe I stated that any soldiers violating
military law or the Geneva conventions should be prosecuted, but in case I didn't, I'll state that now.

Again you make the rather childish argument that because I prefer to place responsiblity for the Iraq war on civilian leadership instead of soldiers in the field, I must also support Nazi war criminals. I won't even honor a position like that with a response, and you should feel silly for even making it.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #213
250. which war in say the last 50 years
has had ANYTHING to do with "keeping the US safe" how many decades of Imperial war (and throughout history that's the cause 9 times out of ten) and war for profit need to be fought before people stop beleiving teh guff about "protecting America".

Most actually don't join for that reason, it's a payheck or an education or adventure, and good luck to 'em, but if there really are people there who think that any combat role that the US armed forces has been involved in for atleast 50 years is even remotely to do with "protecting" the US then I'm even more worried about the state of the army.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #250
254. So a kid that joins for the paycheck
deserves to get his legs blown off? The kid that needs a college education doesn't deserve good leaders?

Jesus, man! This is a simple choice: you can choose to place responsibility with those in power, or you can choose to blame the young men and women getting killed. Guess where I choose to put the responsibility?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #254
262. sigh
I know this is difficut for you but I'll try again

I BLAME BOTH

I blame those in power for the actual war and the policy it's being carried out with. Absolutely 100% Bush, Rove, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney etc etc SHOULD ALL BE IN JAIL You'll get no argument from me.

BUT if a soldier KNOWINGLY fires upon civilians or engages in acts of unwarranted brutality (seriously is there any way that someone could amke you rape soeone else???) then they also should blamed.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #262
274. Now you change the subject.
First we were talking about troops in general, and now you talk about troops that rape and commit war crimes?

That, my friend, is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #274
280. I was only ever talking about troops who commit war crimes
please inform me of a single poster who has said "ALL ROOPS ARE CRIMINALS" and I'll agree that that person has their head up their arse.

Frankly I have less and less clue as to what YOU'RE talking about as it's getting a tad incoherent.

Do you support ALL the troops, even the ones who committ crimes? if not then YOU don't "support the troops"
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #280
285. All right, lets be clear...
you need to take a position and stick with it.

Do you agree that the overwhelming majority of our troops in Iraq are not there to murder, rape, or kill innocent civilians?

My position is that these troops have been let down by their civilian leadership, which means that they have been let down by all those who put that leadership in place (including me). Putting the responsibility for correcting our mistakes on our troops is both cowardly and dangerous.

If you disagree with that statement, I would appreciate a response free of Nazi references, thank you.

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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #285
300. and I'd appreciate you not defining my argument
as you clearly do not have a clue. I have responded to statements such as "US soldiers are victims" I do not beleive for a second that weer the US invaded and occupied and a similar percentage of the community killed or imprisoned that you would view that illegal occupaying force as victims - if you think you would then fair enough - but would really?

Yes the leadership is responsible for the war itself - did anyone suggest that the troops wanted to go there or would that eb more hyperbole? - yes the chain of command mustr accept the MAJORITY of the blame - but individual soldiers also have some culpability - what would make you rape someone? or pose them for a torture photographic essay?

If YOU can't accept the paralells between not accepting "following orders" as an excuse for others and not accepting it for one's own soldiers then there really isn't anything to say
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #300
318. You're kind of all over the place with that one.
You keep bringing up rape, torture, and murder, but ignore the fact that I already said those types of activities should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. There is no disagreement there. "Following orders" should be no defense to war crimes. So that subject is done. If you bring it up again, I'll assume you're just doing it for shock value.

If you disagree with my premise that US soldiers in Iraq are victims of Bush's foreign policy, perhaps you'd like to visit some widows, some veterans without legs, or perhaps some orphans and explain to them how they should have know better when they signed up for the military.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #318
328. you not bored yet
there's this nice wall next to me that I might smack my head against coz it'll be easier for both of us and less painful for me.

Good to see you agree though - not all troops should be supported.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #328
331. If that's your best response
I'll take that as a concession and bid you a good night.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #331
335. take it however you feel like it
:eyes:
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #209
278. I respect your opinion,
however freeped your writing style may be, but unfortunately I can't support the troops. Like many others on here, I believe they are murderers and Bush enablers. I am sorry that I angered you so much, and hope that you can forgive my point of view.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #278
287. I wish I could say the same to you...
But I see very little to respect in someone who says "Fuck the troops."

Perhaps you lack basic human decency, perhaps you're just an asshole; I really don't care to find out. I just know that anyone who could be that callous to human suffering isn't someone who will do one ounce of good for the Democratic party or liberals in general.

If anyone asks, could you please refrain from telling them your political affiliation? Those of us that still give a damn would appreciate it.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #287
304. Wondering why your personal attack hasn't been removed...
Why do I have to tow the DLC line in order to proclaim my party affiliation? I have every right to believe that "the men and women in uniform" are jingoistic murderers, and even with that belief I want to help them out by bringing them home.

If you give a damn so much still, why not give DU a few bucks?
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #304
309. Wait, are you saying that refraining from saying "Fuck the troops"...
is towing the DNC line? You really are a quite a fella.

And hell yes I'm going to personally attack anyone who says something as stupid as you did. Because when you say "fuck the troops" and call them "jingoistic murderers", you are talking about several of my dear friends, and I take that personally. Some of them voted for Kerry and some of them didn't, but I'll be damned if I let a dumbass like you sit there and say those kinds of things without being called on it.

Really, if you think for one second that you are doing anyone any good by proudly displaying your lack of human decency, then I guess you may be a lost cause. I just wish that those of us with some sense didn't get lumped in with people like you.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #309
322. If we continue
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 10:35 PM by One of the Few
to shout "Support the Troops but not the war" then nothing will ever change. You are just giving the repukes the okay to continue their "democracy spreading."

I was not saying that you must say fuck the troops, I was saying that you shouldn't be forced to love professional soldiers in order to be a dem.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #322
323. Your lack of understanding is quite amazing
If you think that you'll change ANYTHING for the better with statements like "Fuck the troops", you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. And if you think that the two choices present are to "love professional soldiers" or to "fuck the troops", then I'm surprised you have the ability to turn on your computer without help.

Lets pretend that your "Fuck the troops" post becomes widely known and becomes the standard for liberals in general. Now pretend you have to explain to one of the millions and millions of people with family members why we're the party that is best suited to run the military. See where I'm going with this? Your bullshit only hurts, it does NOTHING constructive.

I'll beg you one last time: PLEASE, if anyone asks you you opinion on world affairs, either shut up or tell them you're a Republican.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #323
327. haha
I guess you are right, since your methods have been such a success.... Oh wait, your friends are still killing Arabs, whether or not they like it.

Go ahead and continue with your "tried and true" strategy, I'll go right ahead with my own opinions.

I'm still not sure exactly why we are fighting...our opinions differ here but I am sure we can find common ground. After all this is a progressive forum.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #327
329. Yes, we disagree.
You are someone who feel "fuck the troops" is a valid and useful form of expression, and doesn't seem to understand why anyone would have a problem with it.

I am someone who thinks anyone who would say "fuck the troops" has no conception of what this struggle of ideas really comes down to, and only hinders those trying to make a change for the better.

Good night, I hope you wise up or shut up before the next election.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #329
338. Wow.
I already said that I do understand your opinion in my first reply to you. I specifically used the word "respect."


And sorry, I won't shut up. This is not Fox News.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #338
339. Do you think there is some sort of equivalence here?
Because there isn't. Your position is morally reprehensible, and it will keep liberals out of power for the foreseeable future while giving a free hand to people like Bush to claim the military as his own.

I have no use for that.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #339
340. Send a donation to DU.
I double dog dare ya.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #340
341. Thanks, but I'm not sure I need your help spending my money
Although I appreciate the forum greatly, it does tend to bring out the worst elements of liberalism. (I'm talking about posts like yours)

Was that dare supposed to enrage me, by the way? Or just distract from your total lack of human decency?
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #341
342. Go disrupt elsewhere.
Ted Nugent has a pretty big forum I believe.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #342
363. That's lovely.
You show utter lack of decency toward young men and women getting killed and maimed, and you call me a disruptor?

People like you are the one of the reasons why America decided not to trust the Democrats with control of the military in this election, and that's a fact.

Thanks for nothing.
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #363
375. haha
If you are so concerned for the troops, why don't you just fucking sign up to go help them?

You are a disruptor, and I am beginning to pick up on your subtle hints. America not trusting democrats with the military....


The Nuge board awaits...
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #375
379. Yeah, its crazy to be concerned for human life, isn't it?
If you can't muster an ounce of human decency, then do us all a favor and just keep your damn mouth shut. You don't help us with shit like yours, you only confirm the worst stereotypes of liberals.

And if I were in fact a disruptor, I would be BEGGING you to keep talking, and encouraging you to get your message of "fuck the troops" out to as many people as possible. Bullshit like yours will guarantee that Democrats keep losing elections, and our troops keep getting put in harms way for no good reason.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
171. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. I've been told that George W. Bush can save my soul.
Do you believe everything you are told? That's a nice fucking attitude.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #171
174. I wouldn't go by that...
At this point it is not important to me (not really) in this discussion, who they voted for. As far as I am concerned they could have voted for Alfred E. Newman and I wouldn't care. What I do care about is how they are acting in the field. The politics of it be damned, there is still a serious issue of accountability.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
178. And I've also read on RWing boards...
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 03:52 PM by Q
...that they intend to come here to start threads exactly like this to get DUers to rant about the military. Of course there are DUers who will play your game...but DU's opinions of the troops is irrelevant. What's important to keep in mind is that it was GEORGE W. BUSH* WHO UNNECESSARILY SENT OUR SOLDIERS INTO HARMS WAY.

- Remember George? The guy who sat there with children while America was under attack on 9-11? The buck stops with him.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #178
179. flamebait??? n/t
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smbolisnch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #178
182. That's what I was just thinking.
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 04:13 PM by smbolisnch
I cannot even believe how many people have spent all day coming in this thread and bashing our entire military! Talk about giving the freepers ammo! What about the f'in pResident??!?!?! You remember, the one who took us into the immoral, illegal war to begin with?!?!

I don't think he was even mentioned in this entire thread. I am going to have to back through and check. Apparently, he has been absolved of his crimes. Get a grip people. :mad:

I don't think that the OP is a freeper, though.
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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #178
183. finally...
the freeper accusation, I was waiting for that...

I love it, see something you don't like, cover your eyes and scream FREEPER!!!! grow up.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #183
192. Good on you. Controversy is a good thing. Makes people think. n/t
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #183
203. "Grow up"? What's next? Should I move to another country...
...if I don't like the policies of this president?

- Those of us who have been here awhile have seen this type of shit thread so many times that it's getting predictable. Just who in the hell do you think you are to come to DU and tell anyone what to think or say? If someone doesn't like the 'troops' that's their first amendment right.

- Why don't you reserve your angst for those who deserve it...like the ChickenHawks that started this illegal war? Or the so-called president who insists on sending soldiers to fight and die in a phony war on terror in a country that wasn't a threat to our security?

- Kerry and many military experts were right: this war is nothing but a distraction...and it's creating more terrorists instead of decreasing the threat. But RWing lameasses don't seem to understand that those who planned the attack on 9-11 are still at large and planning another one.

- You should take your own advice about 'seeing something you don't like'. A few posters have problems with the troops and you start a thread to generalize about DUers.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
181. Hard to suppot those who rape and murder innocent women and kids
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #181
248. Is anyone asking you to support that?
You show me a SHRED of evidence that the majority, or even a significant number, of our troops are engaging in such behavior.

Actions such as those at Abu Ghraib need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. Any of our soldiers violating military law should be held accountable. Characterizing our troops as rapists and murderers, however, does nothing to accomplish that.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #248
291. I am being forced to support it
Thousands of innocent women and children murdered by
US soldiers who are being supported with my tax dollars.
100,000 Iraqi dead, and more being murdered every day. A few bad apples cannot kill that many people.
The numbers speak for themselves.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #291
324. At least have the honesty
to differentiate between those soldiers that commit crimes and the vast majority of our troops. The former need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of military law, and the latter really don't need people like you blaming them for civilian failure.

We failed to give them proper leadership, and they are paying for our mistakes with their lives, as are the Iraqis.

Maybe it makes you feel better to blame others for our own failures, but that's not how we're going to change things.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #324
346. I am being honest
The majority of US troops have been involved.
100,000 people were not murdered by a few Americans.
The truth will come out when the troops start coming home.
We will have unprecedented PTSD and related problems.
It is a failure on many levels. The reality is that war
is ugly, very ugly.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #346
364. You are avoiding the issue.
Go back and read what I posted again, and try to tell me what you disagree with. No one is saying this war is a good idea, or that our troops are 100% morally spotless. What I'm saying is that those troops were put there by the civilian government. That means we are responsible for putting them in this situation. WE. You, me, everyone that failed to change this government shares the blame.

When you blame our civilian govenrment's failures on the young men and women getting their asses blown up, you pass the buck. Be better than that.
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ROC Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
185. Absolutely agree! Support our troops!
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #185
189. Its blind attitudes like this that will simply propagate the
culture of death that brainwashes the troops. Remember, the troops who coldly and cruelly kill women and children were once our sons and daughters.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #185
292. I will never support the murder of so many innocent people
We should hang our heads in shame, as should our
troops.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
187. I for one will NOT bash our troops
I will gladly bash their leaders but never the troops.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
190. Did you post this just so a right wing blog will pick it up?
They really love this shit...
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GoldenOldie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #190
195. Who here at DU doesn't support the troops???
I think the Cons have become so used to smearing that they are looking for those that will feed their appetites or they will kill of their own.

I sure don't hear any of them demanding that Bush and Thugs provide the armor and up to date equipment that our "Modern Day Army" needs to fight and survive. Isn't this what Bush/Rove/Swiftboats smeared Kerry with, not voting monies to support the troops. Bush got what he wanted but the troops still are lacking the equipment 3-years after. Don't hear any of this on the news or coming from the the CON ditto-heads.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #195
198. me.
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eurolefty Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #195
202. me.
I am against all troops.
War is evil.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #195
343. me
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #343
352. To you three....remember the horror and outrage we felt at the recruiters
conning those kids in F9/11? That's who is over there right now. That's who you have turned your back on. I am ashamed of all three of you.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #352
354. no, here's who I'm turning my back on....
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 12:44 PM by mike_c


This is a U.S. Marine threatening a bound, unarmed Iraqi civilian. The Marine is certainly no "kid."




Here's a marine sniper, and below are sniper victims in Falluja. They were lucky at the time this picture was take-- they were still alive. Remember what the people of Falluja had to do with their soccer field?




Here's what the people of Falluja think about those "kids:"




It's pretty obvious who I'm ashamed of....
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #354
356. You can't pick and choose. Sorry. No pass.
It's pretty disgusting.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #356
358. I'm not picking and choosing-- I'm condemning the lot of them...
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 03:33 PM by mike_c
...for engaging in an illegal war of aggression against a country that was no threat to the U.S., for the murder of some 100,000 civilians, for the destruction of the infrastructure necessary to maintain basic living conditions for millions, for a brutal occupation, and for trampling the Geneva Conventions. They are presently engaged in the slaughter of civilians in Fallujah, where one Marine was quoted this morning dismissing noncombatants as simply being "in the wrong place at the wrong time." Do you want me to specifically target those kids at the mall? OK. When they engage in the activities I've outlined above, I condemn them. I refuse to support them. I refuse the authority of MY NAME as a basis for their crimes. No pass needed or wanted, thank you very much.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #358
359. Then I say again...Shame, Shame on you.
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 03:39 PM by MrsGrumpy
And I will continue to. Again, no pass. :hi:

It is here in these types of threads, that we get to see the ugly side of people, sadly.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #359
360. does any of this death and destruction mean anything to you...?
Why is condemning the murder of civilians and a war of aggression "ugly?" Why is this just about giving unqualified "support?"

I'm angry, certainly. I'm DEEPLY ashamed of what the U.S. military is doing in Iraq. I cannot express how ashamed I am-- this is not my America anymore. I suppose it's not much different from Vietnam, but I was younger then and more concerned about other things in life, so I didn't feel the shame of it as deeply as I feel this. I don't need your shame, MG-- I have plenty of my own.

I cannot support murder, and especially not institutionalized murder in our names. I'm sorry if this offends you-- truly I am.

xoxo
Mike C.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #360
361. Sure it does. and You've got my shame whether you want it or not. Both
sides are victims here. The Iraqi's and the troops. Sign up and then say no to a tour in Iraq and maybe I'd give your opinion more credit. But until then, it's easy for us to sit at our desks or in our easy chairs and say what we ourselves would do. Sorry.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
196. I wonder - would "our troops" kill us for being dissenters if Bu$h
ordered them to?

This is, I think, a valid question. Frankly, I could never kill someone I did not know and who had done nothing to me, my family, my country, or my people.

"Our troops" are killing Iraqis simply because Bu$h told them to.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this.

Could someone please explain to me how it is morally justifiable for "our troops" to kill Iraqis who did absolutely nothing to them and did not threaten them in any way?

Thanks, I would really appreciate a good logical explanation because this question really bothers me, and I'd like to not be afraid that our troops will kill me if Bu$h asks them to.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #196
197. They have to take an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies..
...foreign and domestic. So if we are determined to be domestic enemies of the constitution, then they could receive lawful orders to do so. Mind you, there are other considerations, primarily posse comitatus, but those things can be worked around. The short version is: yes.

How many would? Depends upon how good the brainwashing is. I fear too many would. Look at Waco.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. If they were to defend the Constitution against all enemies, then they
would come home and frog march Bu$h and the rest of the PNAC right into prison.
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #199
200. Agreed. But their programming does not allow them to think that way....
...they are far more likely to view true patriots like us as the enemy rather than the real enemy.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
205. Well said, the troops are in a no win situation
moreover, many did not even have a secret ballot
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
216. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MacDo Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #216
224. Back at ya
Do you read anything here, or just post insults?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #216
226. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
242. The soldiers on the ground in Iraq are just pawns in the game
It really does not make any difference whether they support the war or not. In the eyes of those organising the conflict they are simply expendable. The way things are going I expect the troops and the insurgents will still be killing each other in a years time in greater or lesser numbers. Along the way many more civilians will also die. All of these lives be they American or Iraqi are of equal value, and all are being wasted needlessly. The obscenity of the conflict is that it is being waged to prop up a financial system that is rotten to the core. None of those who stand to benefit from the war in terms of wealth or power are going to be at the slightest risk of harm. They make me sick.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
252. Are you speaking to assholes that support Bush? If so, I agree with you.
Edited on Sun Nov-07-04 07:53 PM by Swamp_Rat
Why do you admonish American citizens for exercising their right to free speech?


Support the troops by bringing them home ALIVE!
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OETKB Donating Member (262 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
256. Let's Really Mix It Up!
I admit it. I'm a peacenik. I was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. I was never drafted, but did serve in a poor neighborhood to satisfy my own conscience.

What a fix for the country, isn't it, to have citizens who would not defend their country! But wait a minute, we were not defending our country and war does not bring peace. It only provides the example when people have a chance to look at it, that they don't want to go through that again. I have listened to many of our combat veterans over the years and peered into the photographs of the human carnage of war(something cleansed from our TV screens) and it becomes clear it is an oxymoron to equate war and peace. Yet it comes and each time the survivors try imperfectly to stop it from occurring again.

Wars begin when options are closed, the opposition is demonized, and nationalistic fervor is ignited. It becomes a massive rolling stone toward disaster. So here we are. Soldiers are human beings and act as any of us would act put in the situation they are in. The answer: Don't put them there.
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rockydem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
263. some of them are trolls
DU has a long history of problems with trolls who post outrageous things. Some of them are long time members with stars. A couple of them outed themselves on election night - from what I knew of them I wasn't surprised. It's a public message board - that's just how it goes.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #263
312. Yes, the troll infestation continues.
Especially the ones who are just so leftist. (Usually with hidden profiles.)
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #312
353. funny... I always assume that it's the flag-baiters who are the trolls
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 08:13 AM by NorthernSpy
Especially when they presume to chide us for failing to "support the troops" -- a phrase always left carefully undefined.

I get the sense that by being urged to "support the troops", I am in fact being ordered to approve of their actions, or else.
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swhisper Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
264. The troops need to turn on our Administration
They know they are going to kill thousands of innocents in this attack. They pray for their souls, but will never reconcile with murder.Another generation trashed, a new generation born with defects will emerge. Kissenger's depopulation is in the works, and taking our kids along with them.(depleated uranium). These elected and appointed men are insane.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #264
265. Bingo!
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #264
266. We don't need a coup like a banana republic...
...we just need to educate them so that they can say "NO" to any more illegal orders.
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swhisper Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #266
273. My point exactly, against an illegal war. Articles of War were never drawn
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #273
275. No question...
...but that was a function of Congress (who are largely made up of corporate whores as well). Not a function of the military. I want to make clear that I am not advocating sedition or mutiny. They need to take responsibility to not carry out illegal orders in the field. We need to take on our responsibility to them.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #264
368. That is a horrible, horrible idea.
The only possible outcome for your suggestion is a military dictatorship. If you think things are bad now, I suspect you'd look back on these days fondly when the tanks start rolling down your street.

Civilians control the military, NOT the other way around.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
282. support the troops
by getting them home NOW...alive and safe
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Aunt Anti-bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
301. I have and always will support our troops.
It's their leader I have the problem with. They just follow orders and I admire and love them deeply for their sacrafices.

I have 2 nephews taking orders from W now so believe me, the troops are in my thoughts and prayers always.
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Fatima Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
302. As a veteran, I am capable of distinguishing between
war hero and war criminal without your assistance, thank you...

and I do make the distinction.

Now I will go back to saying what I want as long as Skinner tolerates my presence. That is not to say I have been denigrating troops, but if I see the need to single out the actions of a thug or group of thugs in uniform, that is my right to do so.
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #302
315. This is an illegal war
therefore the "troops" should refuse to fight. During the Viet era when I was in the Army, people would come up to me and ask me why I joined, I said "I didn't, I was drafted!" The response was "Why did you go?" At the time I didn't think I had an alternative. If I had it do over I wouldn't have gone. I feel sorry for the wounded, but these people aren't sheep, they know what they're doing, and if they think it's right, do they deserve support? How many more would have died in VietNam if everyone "supported" the troops? This is just another right-wing wedge phrase.
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tarheel_voter Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
314. Support our troops, fire Rumsfeld
JK said don't mistake the Warriers for the War. Folks at DU feel the same way. We're not making that mistake, we just don't like the policy makers.

No one is attacking the Troops, we tried our best to elect the better commander in chief for them. Thats dedication.
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Pig_Latin_Lover Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
334. Dems need to take "Support our troops" back
I don't think anyone is lacking in support of our troops. They're people we know, Americans just like us, and we don't like it any time they are used in vain such as the war in Iraq.

I think some of the "backlash" against the troops for voting for Bush is being misunderstood. I think the mindset is that they are either misinformed (victims of Bush's war, not perpetrators) or that they really don't think things are so bad. If they don't think things are so bad, then they must have accepted the consequences of their vote as more of the same. It's their choice. I wish they chose differently, but they're the ones in the trenches and they are ready to put their asses on the line in a way I certainly would not do.

But, I do think that some of the language being used against our troops is a bit strong in some posts and some people need to take a step back and make sure they aren't wishing death upon those who they wish to save.
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Dastard Stepchild Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-07-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
337. The "Support Our Troops" slogan....
is akin to saying, "Hey, let's breathe." I think the average DUer is most willing to support the troops. In fact, that tagline is getting a little trite - it's being overused in the same way that the American flag was overused after 9-11. There will always be a handful of insensitive individuals who criticize the person, not the policy, but they are by no means the majority... I'm just not sure the incessant reminder to "support the troops" is entirely necessary. (Not commenting on your post in particular, but on the whole "support the troops" sloganism in general.)
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Ktulu Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
344. Why
So if your at a anti-war rally and the cops buts your head we just support them cuz they are doing there job? This line of thought is BS, the troops are supporting Bush. What if they all decided to put down their guns and refuse to fight, do you think Bush would have been elected then?
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #344
367. A military coup is not the answer
"What if they all decided to put down their guns and refuse to fight"

That's not the way our system works, thankfully. The civilian government gives the orders and sets policy. Your suggestion passes the buck and sets up the probablilty of a military junta.

No thanks.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
345. Not ME
I didn't say anything negative about the troops. My support for them is in wanting them to come home.
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JSJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
347. 'support the troops' is a worthless political slogan...
...if you're not brainwashed. Usually uttered by one or all of three groups; one, the families of the troops, two, the troops, and three, rabid rightwingers who know the devisive nature of the slogan, and who use it to their advantage. I say let's retire this undeserving slogan that means absolutely nothing to intelligent and forthright people. To the above, I say fuck that and fuck you for using the guilt factor on the rest of us to gain cover for yours and Bush's volunteers who join to kill human beings (that's all of them- otherwise, why the fuck would they join the most lethal killing force in history, with a history of killing only third world peoples?). I'm disgusted as can be.
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
349. for as long as loyalty to race and nation trumps basic morality...
... aggressive war and all of its attendant crimes will remain popular.

You say that people here are "attacking the troops". I say that you are a dishonest propagandist. Stop slandering us.

What many here are doing is refusing to applaud what the troops are doing over there.

I personally know people who refused to join in the throttling of those poor little countries that the Washington imperialists had selected for destruction back in the 60s. And some of them really paid for that refusal. The country as a whole may have hated them, but I'm betting that the people who would have been their victims did not.

I'll consider the troops as suffering human beings who are at risk of death and maiming. I will not call them innocent, or lie and pretend that what they are doing to strangers halfway around the world is right and just. Only the most paranoid chauvinist could consider that "attacking" anybody.


If we want to benefit from other people's moral choices not to murder, not to torture, not to destroy -- then we have to make moral choices of our own.

We have no right to expect morality of others if we're not willing to exhibit any ourselves.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
350. Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
Support the troops by bringing them home. Alive.

RL
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #350
366. Why is it bullshit?
Why is it bullshit to not blame troops for civilian failure?

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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #366
378. Because
Raskolink, don't you get it.... there has to always be an enemy to bitch and moan about.... those horrible blood thirsty soldiers are EVIL!!!! How dare they be soldiers! Quit being so dense, dude.

Why don't you troop haters focus your efforts on the chimp (like the rest of us) and leave the teenagers out of it.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #378
380. You're right.
It seem like a vocal minority would prefer to blame the people that are bearing the biggest cost of our own failures.

If anything, the troops should be furious with US. They should be calling US names and questioning OUR humanity after we failed them in this election.

Sigh.
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firebee Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
355. QUIT WITH THE "TROOPS."
I'm fed up with calling our soldiers "troops". The difference between soldiers and troops is significant in my opinion.

A soldier is honorable, disciplined, courageous and a soldier risks their life for the people.

Troops participate in Abu Ghraib, airstrikes on hospitals and other illegal operations.

Start referring to our soldiers as soldiers and quit undermining their sacrifice by calling them "troops". How often do you hear a veteran or another soldier refer to the people in the military as "Our Troops"? NEVER!! That's because calling these men and women troops is disrespectful in the eyes of military personnel. Mel Gibson didn't name his movie "When We Were Troops" because the title of "troops" disrespects the sacrifice of these people.

I'M FED UP WITH "TROOPS". They're not troops, they're soldiers.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #355
365. Not disrepectful, just inclusive
They are called "troops" in order to encompass soldiers, sailors, marines, etc. If you refer to "soldiers", you are leaving out a significant portion of the armed forces.



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getoffmytrain Donating Member (575 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #355
377. ummm
Troop:

A group of soldiers.
troops Military units; soldiers.
A unit of cavalry, armored vehicles, or artillery in a European army, corresponding to a platoon in the U.S. Army.


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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
370. The Bush Zombies can't tell the difference between "the troops" and
Chimp. It's apparent that some on the ultra-left also have this problem.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #370
372. Well said.
Agree 100%.
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