McCain's aide who joined the DLC says we need more church, less Hollywood

[madfloridian]

Geez this makes me mad. Another one leaves the GOP to come to our side to make us be more like them.
http://www.etaiwannews.com/World/2004/11/07/1099794765.htm

SNIP..."Marshall Wittmann, an activist at the Democratic Leadership Council, a centrist think tank, said, "This could be a liberating time for Democrats, a chance to clean the cobwebs. It should start with the realization that they need to spend less time in Hollywood and more time in churches."

"They need to realize that America is one of the most religiously observant countries outside the Islamic world," said Wittmann. "Bush's faith is his political strength, and if Democrats don't find a way to talk about faith and values, if instead they move to the left, that plays to Karl Rove's goal of essentially destroying the Democrats as a potential national majority party."

SNIP..." Lastly, there is John Edwards, who's out of a job and independently rich - perfect for a full-time presidential bid, with a stress on Southern religion and small-town values..."
(There is the church/religion thing again...the GOP playing ground)

At least they give a mention to Howard Dean:

A pair of recent players may resurface, and they could help determine the party's direction. Howard Dean is now a star on the liberal side, with his own grass-roots network, and he might not support a Democratic establishment that goes for a more faith-based approach.

And Aronchick said that even amidst despair, there is hope: the new independent, grass-roots groups that aren't going away, a new network of small donors, the Deaniacs' Web-based organizational prowess, "and so many people who, even though they were sad at the result, came away feeling enthusiastic about their work."

On the conference call Dean said something to this effect: Don't worry about the DLC, all they do is pontificate in newspapers.

However, he knows they have financial backing from corporations and will be dangerous to grassroots efforts.

[mhr]

1. What Prey Tell Does Moving To The Left Have To Do With Hollywood?

Could these idiots be anymore obtuse?

[Maat]

4. Yuck...

if the Democratic party becomes Rethuglican-fundie-lite...I'm outta there. And I never thought I'd say that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

40. I'm outta here as well .

I don't believe Gawd in any shape for form, and organized religion sickens me. I wasn't raised with religion, never had it introduced into my life and I don't care for it to be. I don't have a problem with anyone's religious beliefs, I just don't want it shoved in my face. Just like I don't push my non-religious views on anyone else, I expect the same courtesy in return.

[Lorien]

49. I've worked in film studios and met plenty of fundies there

the people IN CHARGE of the studios tend to be more liberal, like most creative people (narrow mindedness leads to conservatism), but there are quite a few fundies around. Bullshit argument all the way around; most of my Hollywood co-workers are rather apolitical, while my anti-Hollywood ("it all rots the brain") friends are liberal firebrands. Another baseless stereotype from the Neo-cons.

Moving further right is killing us. Remember KKKarl's quip about "wanting Dean" (turned out anti-war unapologetic Dean was who he wanted the least); he knows that if the Dems return to their roots, the GOP will lose and lose big.

[NYC Liberal]

54. They shouldn't be talking about Hollwood,

when THEY'RE the ones that have had actors as governors and president. That would be hypocritical.

Ooops, I forgot. We're talking about Republicans here...hypocrisy is implied.

[madfloridian]

57. Arnie baby,who wants to be prez. LOL

Good point.

[Carolinian]

2. Does anyone else have the feeling we're moving towards HOLY war?

[madfloridian]

5. I think we are there.

We left our Southern Baptist church last year because they believe Iraq is a war against good and evil...and they called us unpatriotic.

[Carolinian]

27. Oh no. I read somewhere that Christianity is the only major religion in

the world that is declining in numbers.

I'm of the opinion that organized Christianity doesn't really ractice the faith. In my eyes it has become a country club - not a refuge for the soul. I consider the soul to be as important to our health as the mind and the body, but the Church as fallen short in nourishing the soul.

Seems the real god of organized Christianity is money.

[Red Knight]

46. Imperial Hubris

Has anyone read this book?

I read some of it for about a half hour in a Borders but I plan to read it all when I get the chance. The author(Anonymous--CIA Intelligence analyst)is either a nutcase or a propaganda piece or a harbinger of some awful times.

He presents the war on terror(from the little I read) as nothing less than a holy war. If someone has read the entire book please feel free to correct me---but it seems at time to come across as a call to arms against the entire Muslim world. This--he seems to argue--is the only way we will be able to battle terrorism.

He does feel that the war is being fought wrong at a lot of levels but again, it's a complicated book and I didn't read nearly enough to get the full thrust of his plans and arguements.

If anyone has please comment on it.

Frightening stuff.

[Gyre]

It could be just my imagination but

it's seemed like more bible-whackers have been showing up in DU lately. Could the increased frequency be the result of an agenda? :tinfoilhat:

Gyre

[madfloridian]

7. Excuse me, but I am NOT a bible-whacker.

I am a Christian. I believe in separation of church and state, and I resent our party moving to the right to be like them.

[mhr]

11. I Am Generally A Non-violent Person, But That Character Trait

Begins and ends with Christian Fundamentalists that try to proselytize me.

Hear me Fundies, I believe (in your terms and religion) that you have become a tool and pawn of the devil you so hate.

Hence, I will have no problem with a little secular Christian retribution.

Don't believe me, take a chance then.

[Maddy McCall]

33. Wait. Someone with a hidden profile is accusing a person who...

has been here for three years of being a bible-thumping troll?

Give me a second while I digest the irony of that. :eyes:

[madfloridian]

34. Yes, a little odd, thanks. Weird board tonight.

:hi:

[movonne]

3. Screw them....no more religion

[Maat]

6. Hey...just because you're spiritual...doesn't mean you're a...

fundie.

But my religion is separate from my politics.

People need to re-read Jefferson and Madison.

[madfloridian]

8. Right, I am a Christian, but I don't want the church in politics.

People are a little obtuse here on this subject. It is called separation of church and state.

[Gloria]

9. Carol Mosely Braun on Laura Flanders tonight: one of her 3 items

of advice was that the party needs to come up with a positive program that will appeal to people---and this DOESN'T mean going to the right! Democrats, she said, are afraid to go to their core consituency...Rove went to the RW, but Dems keep trying to go to the center. Dems need to declare WHAT WE ARE FOR.

[fishnfla]

10. I think you can be a liberal Democrat without Hollywood liberals

I personally cant stand the idol worship. I dont like the glorified violence either. Its all fiction and mental slavery to me. ( EDIT:woah -some would say the same about organized religion)

I havent been to a movie in 12 years, and I havent watched commercial television since the war started. Of course I havent been to church in that amount of time either. But our kids do sing in the choir!

Movies and TV are just another form of the media to me, since I cant read 'em I turn 'em off.

Fuck hollywood, let them have their greatest glory-themselves(Edit : woah some would say the same about theologians)

[madfloridian]

22. It is a good thing. Nothing wrong with it.

What is going on here tonight?

[madfloridian]

23. If you put side by side:

A real Republican and one who is trying to be like a Republican, the Republicans will vote the real one every time. We have got to stop this.

Paraphrased Dean.

[mhr]

24. How Wrong You Are!

eom

[madfloridian]

28. Are we being a wee bit judgemental of Hollywood folks here?

Christians should not do that, now should they?

[mhr]

31. Who Said I Was Christian?

eom

[madfloridian]

39. I don't care what you are.

You just went after this thread bigtime, and I posted it intelligently. This is your problem, not mine. I really don't care. I do care that my country is turning into a religiously intense one, especially in the area of government.

And I was raised Southern Baptist.

[mhr]

42. Well Then We Share The Same Concern - I Live In And Among

A den of Fundies. And, I have grown to detest their narrowmindedness.

Hence, I see no connection between Hollywood and any argument to be made by Fundies.

And correspondingly, I see no reason for the Democratic party to pander to these dim-witted idiots.

[charlie]

12. Of course, Wittman would say that

He's a former top officer of the Christian Coalition. Religion will always be a prime filter through which he sees politics.

if Democrats don't find a way to talk about faith and values, if instead they move to the left...

As if leftward is the direction away from morals and ethics. Pfft.

[madfloridian]

17. Ah, I knew he was with McCain, but not Christian Coalition. Wow

That explains it. Our DLC welcomed him with open arms, too. I am getting tired of this.

[charlie]

30. Well, to his credit

He's the guy who had Bill Kristol on the outs with conservatives a few years back. Remember when they'd thought Kristol had gone soft in the head, thought he had become a bleeding heart liberal? It was because Wittman and Kristol were espousing a third way type of politics, which was very much concerned with the plight of the little guy, the poor and voiceless. Wittman is as much outraged by powerful interests (corporatocracy) and unresponsive government as any liberal.

Unfortunately, however, their worldview also championed "American Greatness", eg, PNAC. Kristol has since back-burnered his domestic concerns to hold point for the super-hawks. Wittman still seems to remember the populist side of their endeavors.

[madfloridian]

41. I read some of his stuff at the DLC site.

Some I agree with, but I most definitely disagree with his wanting to pull us more rightward. It is just not working. There is no longer a clear line between the parties, and it confuses people.

I expect my party to have values of its own, and not to give them up because the other party says we should.

[charlie]

45. I wouldn't listen to Wittman

or the DLC for a minute. I liked him when he was outside the RNC pissing in, not now that he's become one of "our" God and Manifest Destiny Third Wayers.

[scarletwoman]

13. Oh F**K their "faith and values"!

It's all a scam designed to make damn sure everyone's attention is directed away from the corporate feudalism that's taking over our country.

We need ECONOMIC POPULISM, not "faith". I refuse to cede secular government just so the ruling class can keep the sheep opiated.

All this "values" crap is a con game. Here's some values they DON'T want you worry about: Stop killing people in unjust wars, stop destroying our Mother Earth, and stop making a false virtue out of greed.

They can wear all the "WWJD" pins they want, until they REALLY follow his teachings, they're just hypocrites and pharisees. :mad:

sw

[ShaneGR]

14. I agree with him

We do need to spend more time in churches than in Hollywood. If we want to win national elections, of course we do.

[madfloridian]

19. Sorry, but you can do both. That is just silly. Good folks there.

Look at Rob Reiner, and Martin Sheen, and Paul Newman who worked so hard first for Dean then dedicated to Kerry fully.

They are good men with good works. Sean Penn, so-called bad boy, went to Iraq and walked with the children there. He stood up for them when no one else would.

I could go on and on. I consider Falwell and Robertson and Reed and Moon far worse then the Hollywood stars with big hearts.

[ShaneGR]

32. Hey, not arguing that they are good men, arguing it's not enough

Unless we start spending more time in churches across this nation, we will continue to lose and lose big. It's just a fact.

[madfloridian]

37. Then we are playing on the field of the right wingers.

I never remember a time in history when I even knew or cared about a candidate's religion. I remember Baptists being concerned about Kennedy's Catholic faith, but he reassured us in a good way.

If we play on their field too much, they will take over our field and leave us hanging with no issues left.

[Gothic Sponge]

15. This is Bullshit!

This will only spilt our party up more!

[Eric J in MN]

16. Any Democratic candidate who goes to church every week but

has the same pro-choice position isn't going to get the religous vote.

If the goal is to get the religous vote, moving to the center on abortion, like saying it should usually be illegal after the fourth month, would do more good than church attendance.

[fairfaxvadem]

18. So, religious TV celebrities can be involved in politics.

But "liberal Hollywood" celebrities can't be?

Yeah, like the logic there.

The underlying, unspoken message is that Dems need to go to "Christian Churches", not mosques, not temple, not the great outdoors for a little communing with Mother Nature.

Many Dems are religious and don't need to be told to "go to church."

[BOHICA06]

20. Here's my recipe for Success:

How to counter the Solid South, West and Mid-West:

Embrace the Culture of Life with a twist: – campaign to make abortion rare, but safe and available. Develop plans for adoption programs and homes and combine them with better access to family planning. When in power, carry through with these plans, but work even harder to expand the availability and safety of the abortion option.

Do not espouse that all nations are equal: It isn’t true – and our candidate ought to scoff at the UN when it does stupid things, like make Syria chair of the Human Rights Council or takes bribes like in the “Oil for Food” program. Say we will promote nations that embrace democracy and freedom, and work to bring the same to others. Recognize that we are the only country that can project power and that those that can’t are not our equals.

Promote a vision with a plan: Develop specific plans for energy independence, environmental protection, and economic growth and share them freely. When criticized, invite the critic to work on modifications to better the plan. Learn these plans and package them to look inviting and practical. Share them with the public, hold workshops, EXPLAIN them.

Go working class: Avoid the elitist leisure look – skiing & sail boarding for example. Appear hardworking and competent at a Habitat site or clearing a National Park trail. Give the impression that you drink beer from a bottle and can fumble your way through an explanation of the infield-fly rule.

Go to Church: Establish several years of regular church attendance and church activity. Do it in a manner that the congregation can speak well of you.

Get your Baggage out Front: Mend your fences before they are used to beat you over the head. Be self-aware of your closet's contents to know the baggage others WILL find, and be prepared for it.

[madfloridian]

26. Good ideas, but I disagree on one.

I think it is wrong to make going to church a criteria.

[BOHICA06]

29. If so, then the Candidate ...

should avoid going to Church during the Campaign like he or she does it regularly.

Aside: Speaking of Faith is enhanced with a tithe to go along with it.

[Catt03]

36. Just to remind you that the Clinton, Gore and Kerry

were men who attend chruch regularly.

John Kerry is a very religious man; always has carried a rosary, a prayer book and a St. Christopher's medal. He has literally been a church going Catholic since hte day he was born.

Clinton went to church his entire life as did Al Gore and family.

Bush was "saved" but never attended Church.

It is not about going to church

[Malikshah]

21. McCain??? Anyone associated with that name is M-U-D

Please-- one good thing about SNL was the Smigel cartoon showing McCain being the useless, dishonorable piece of filth he is.

Following pundit putridity in some lemming-like fashion will only result in more of the same.

Stand up
Think for yourself
Act

[RainDog]

25. I am ready to give up on all parties in my country

I have had it with the incursion of religion into state, and with disgusting way in which Republicans have pandered to hate that is called religion.

In case anyone thinks I have no idea of "who these people are," well, I was born in the south, raised as a southern baptist, and was able to think for myself because I was able to get away from them.

If this is what my country is, if someone like me, who does not want the southern baptists to have a monopoly on my country, then I guess I do not belong here, and neither do my children.

Neither does anyone else who has different ideas about religion and/or the separation of church and state.

I'm sick of politics and politicians and 59 million people here.

[mike_c]

35. the headline says it all....

There is a place for a repig senator's former aid on the DLC. Pretty soon the DLC and the RNC will offer a special deal on joint memberships.

[peacetalksforall]

38. Gibberish and crap.....

the more sepration of church and state we have the better - do not cross the line as the line will play tricks and we'll be roped.

Do not legislate morality.

If these so-called christains had been more humble and less hypocritical, they church they honor could have been sufficient to support them.

They are out to rob us of our Constitution and Bill or Rights. They steal votes. They steal our Constitution. They steal our Bill of Rights in the name of JESUS and the bible.

No way. No way....

We are native/african/irish/armenian/australian/hondurian/roumanian americans who worship broadly.

Don't let them steal our Constitution and Bill of RIghts with their defecient morality and hypocrisy.

Send that man back to McCain.

Hollywood faults are the blame of corporations and their stockholders.

Wake UP!

[Robeson]

43. Did you say DLC....

...:puke:

[JohnnyRingo]

44. We can TERMINATE satan from the party...Ja dot's whot we con do.

Oh wait....That's how the republican hippocrits "move from Hollywood to the churches".

[regnaD kciN]

47. I think we need more Democratic heritage and less DLC...

...not to mention "former McCain aides." (Boys and girls, can you say "Republican mole?" Sure, you can!)

[mitchum]

48. No thanks, I'll take justice and ethics over superstition and a skygod

Wittmann can go to made-up hell

[fujiyama]

50. This quote says it all

"They need to realize that America is one of the most religiously observant countries outside the Islamic world,"

This is one of the reasons I am seriously tempted to leave this country. I dislike religious fundamentalism in all its forms.

[Me.]

51. I Really Dislike The Idea Of Having To Prove Your "Faith"

This is really annoying to me. You can pray anywhere and the idea of having to prove to your beliefs is repellent. And if we're going to have a discussion of morals shouldn't we determine what morality is? Is it a man who can't stick to his marriage vows (rush), a wealthy televangelist who gets big whopping tax breaks for his vast holdings, a nut case Reverend who declares himself emperor while his newspaper advocates war? What about the morality of feeding and housing children, cleaning up the environment so people can breathe, doing unto other as you would have them do unto you, turning the other cheek?

What next a punch card so candidates can prove to the right's satisfaction that they attend a church? What has happened to the concept of separation of church and state, to the idea that what goes on between you and your creator is nobody else's business?

[Sara Beverley]

52. Now, wouldn't this be "Christianity for political reasons?"

We know the leaders of the mega evangelical churches are fake Christians but we don't have to be like them, do we?

[Sara Beverley]

53. Listen, moving to the left does not mean moving away from true Christianit

or religion. If Christ were alive today he would be a communist.

[dorktv]

55. How are corporations dangerous to grassroots?

because they fire people who dare stand up to them?

[Booster]

56. I think we need more Hollywood and less McCain - the guy

is seriously a flip-flopper.