A shaudenfreude type optimism

[Beearewhyain]

It sure looks shitty tonight but looking for bunnies and flowers :P I see a possibility that the neo-cons have enough rope to hang themselves with now. It is my hope that it will become painfully obvious to the electorate that they made a poor choice as this lame duck prez screws everything up. I just hope that it is not so screwed as to be impossible to fix and will translate to a future realignment.

[PATRICK]

1. if we are giving up on obvious fraud

the joke as ever is on us. America will fall completely and faster than Rome.

This line should have been drawn earlier at many stages along the way.
Draw the goddamn line!!!!

[Beearewhyain]

3. To what line do you refer?

If you are referring to the fact that a group of neo-fascist(neo-cons) have pulled the wool over the electorates collective eyes then i would say yes; draw that line. However, I still believe in this country and those Madisonoian institutions put in place to prevent the "tyranny of the majority". We just have to do a better job of getting our message across. The fault lays with us liberals in that we could not convince people to vote in their own self interest.

If that is not what you are referring to please explain.

[cosmicaug]

7. We will fall.

PATRICK wrote:

if we are giving up on obvious fraud the joke as ever is on us. America will fall completely and faster than Rome.

This line should have been drawn earlier at many stages along the way.
Draw the goddamn line!!!!

Full audit of the election.

Our foreign policy under Bush is not sustainable. Our domestic policy under Bush is not sustainable. Our fiscal policy under Bush is not sustainable.

I have tried pesimism for the first four years: when expectations are low, one is often pleasantly surprised when events turn out better than expected. Pesimism has not worked: Bush was, on the whole, a worse president than I feared.

Under Bush we will fall. It's that simple.

[PATRICK]

2. if we are giving up on obvious fraud

the joke as ever is on us. America will fall completely and faster than Rome.

This line should have been drawn earlier at many stages along the way.
Draw the goddamn line!!!!

Full audit of the election.

[cosmicaug]

4. That's awfully Panglossian of you.

Beearewhyain wrote:

It sure looks shitty tonight but looking for bunnies and flowers I see a possibility that the neo-cons have enough rope to hang themselves with now. It is my hope that it will become painfully obvious to the electorate that they made a poor choice as this lame duck prez screws everything up. I just hope that it is not so screwed as to be impossible to fix and will translate to a future realignment.

That last bit is the catch.

In fact, I would guess that if Kerry gets elected the odds of Republicans getting the presidency back in 2008 would be rather good simply because the situation is going to be so fucked (no matter who gets elected) that only one engaged in most excellent governance would be able to retain power in the 2008 elections (because shit will be bad and whoever is in charge will be blamed). However, as bad as that might sound, I don't thik it would be all that bad because I doubt that we'd be dealing with the same Republicans (I believe after a Bush loss, the neocons would ose power).

So yeah, by 2008 a lot of folk might have their doubts about Bush, but by then it won't make any difference. That's what I think.

[Beearewhyain]

5. Well isn't all optimism "panglossian"? N/t

[cosmicaug]

9. No.

Well isn't all optimism "panglossian"?

No, I don't think so.

[Beearewhyain]

10. Why not?

For isn't every "good" preceded or followed by a bad? Or is your evidence when you are are optimistic irrefutable?

[cosmicaug]

11. The point...

Beearewhyain asked:

Why not?

Because a big point of Panglossian optimism is that it is unconditional. Ultimately, it recognizes no badness (in the big scheme of things --best of all possible worlds and all that). I suppose, for all their fearmongering, the Bush administration engages in a great deal of fantasy augmented Panglossian optimism (with respect to Iraq, the economy --everything, really).

[Beearewhyain]

12. I will agree that being Panglossian is part of the * admin

but not for me. I have hoped that what the admin said would happen, would happen, even beyond reason cause I hate the idea of folks being killed needlessly. However, this affect that you ascribe to the * admin is part of the shaudenfreude that I stated above. I know that they will fuck things up and it is my hope that the people will realize the error of it. I also believe they may need a bit of help to get there and in that event I will help make the change necessary. Tonight has been shitty for all of us and all I was trying to do was find something to think positively about the future. It was not in rejection of reality.

I have been up too long and I am going to bed but I will still think of a way to make this work for us.

Cheers,
B

[cornermouse]

6. One possible little problem.

Last night, one of the commentators mentioned in passing that Bush may have made a lock on the hispanic vote. It is probably something that should be taken into consideration as a possibility.

[Beearewhyain]

8. Hispanics, from what I have seen are still running around

60/40 dem. The thing that I don't understand is the exit polling being SO different from the actual poll results. I try not to be a tinfoil hat but IMHO there is something wrong there.

But to address your statement, a very close third of the electorate is "independent" and statistically the are the most easily influenced (i.e. they are politically dumb as a rock). If we are able to effectively show them why voting our views is best(for them/the country) then we would never have what has happened this evening.