John Kerry on Meet the Press NOW!!

[Nimble_Idea]

Go watch!!

[Catt03]

1. I think Kerry would make a good president.

nt

[glarius]

2. He seems to be intent on bad-mouthing Howard Dean

[Catt03]

3. Do you not think

that all the candidates are going to start differentiating their positions and policies? There will be alot of debate on Deans positions, by all the candidates.

[Karmadillo]

4. Actually, quite the opposite

He pointed our their differences on repealing the Bush tax cuts (Kerry would keep those benefiting the middle and lower classes) and their differences on campaign finance laws (he would prefer to stay within the limits, but reserved the right to abandon them if Dean did so first, stating he couldn't unilaterally disarm).

But he's not badmouthing Dean. In fact, he even criticized a member of his own campaign staff for making a personal characterization of Dean as calculating (or something to that effect). So far, Kerry's giving a stellar performance.

[glarius]

5. You're right ....I posted before I heard everything....

I don't like how hawkish he is for the war though!

[karlschneider]

6. He wants it both ways. The war was right and it was wrong.

I am not impressed.

[Jacobin]

7. Yup. It's painfully obvious that his calculation on the war vote

is tripping him up.

[Karmadillo]

11. None of the leading candidates for the nomination have really

distinguished themselves on the war. I wish Kerry had voted not to give Bush authority to go to war until other options had been exhausted (and to be honest, I don't think war would have been the answer, even then--Saddam could have been contained and life could have been improved for the Iraqi people by lifting sanctions and keeping a strong UN presence in the country).

Unfortunately, we're likely going to be stuck with someone who supported the policy. Check these links to see that Dean's position is not as far from Kerry's as he might suggest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=23813#24477

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=24284&mesg_id=24451

I think Kerry's other positions and his history as a liberal plus his military experience situate him to give Bush a hard fight. I also am impressed (although my impression may not be all that objective since I was leaning towards Kerry before) with his performance on MTP today. He's taking some fairly hard shots and holding his own. Any Dem is going to get more than their share of grief from the corporate media and has to be able to take it and dish it out. Kerry looks ready for this.

[Catt03]

15. I agree.

He is very articulate about his positions. I like his position on Cuba since I am a South Floridian.

Good job Senator!

[Mika]

30. What is his position on Cuba?

" I like his position on Cuba since I am a South Floridian."

What is his position on Cuba? He waffled so many times I couldn't tell. We should drop the sanctions, we shouldn't drop them unilaterally (wtf? the US embargo is unilateral), travel but little trade, trade but little travel, more money to the Miamicuban "exile" dissident ops at the same time as saying our policies have pandered to them for too long.

[Renew Deal]

36. Exactly

I am having the same problems with him. It's seems like he wants to please everyone.

[ModerateMiddle]

112. "we need to re-evaluate"

open up travel, not drop trade embargo "unilaterally" right now, because you don't give something for nothing. Use dropping the trade embargo to "get something" from Castro.

It was pretty clear to me.

[Eloriel]

94. That's flat out disingenuous

and you know it.

Dean was -- is -- and will be -- against the Iraq war. Kerry played political opportunist and spinelessly voted to give Bush all the power he needed. And now he and his supporters want to try to make like his position was anywhere close to Dean's. It wasn't.

Shameless.

Eloriel

[Upfront]

102. Kerry Not

Kerry is doing what Russet hopes, destroying both himself and Dean. He has not helped the democrats beat Bush with his performance today. Says Dean will raise your taxes 20 times, what crap! Seems like another DLC, Bush lite to me. Just makes me work all the harder for Dean.

[Karmadillo]

124. I've read enough of the candidate threads lately to realize

being called "disingenuous" and "shameless" is actually getting off pretty lightly. I would, however, appreciate it if you would respond to what I posted instead of getting huffy.

From post #20 of this thread, it appeared to me a fairly good case (if somewhat rudely put) had been made Dean wasn't exactly the anti-war candidate he has been portrayed as. This quote especially appears to be cause for concern:

"<A>s I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

The discussion of "misled" on this thread again suggests Dean is not quite the straight shooter one might hope for.

Please remember there are those of us here who are not quite as heavily emotionally invested in the Dean movement as you appear to be, but we are open to reason. In fact, we'll be voting for Dean if he ends up as the nominee. If we happen to have stronger preferences for other candidates, it doesn't make us the Great Satan.

If you'd like to respond to what I posted and indicate why I've been misled (or have foolishly allowed myself to be misled), feel free to do so. If the best you can do is more insults, feel free to skip the response.

[graham67]

26. Not impressed either....

Did he miss all the retired generals who testified before congress last September? I don't wanna hear this 'bad intelligence' stuff. They were warned about what could happen in Iraq, that there was no imminent threat, that Al Qaida would recruit angry Iraqis, etc. etc. etc. The lawmakers who voted for the war should be held accountable too.

[Renew Deal]

35. Good assessment

Well put Karl

[newsguyatl]

32. that

"member of his campaign staff" was his very own CAMPAIGN MANAGER, jim jordan... jordan LOVES to trash dean, i've never seen anything like it... every quote i ever see from this man, he's trashing dean... he's as classless as they come... yeh, i'm sure :eyes: that kerry really hates :eyes: the fact that jordan keeps trashing dean...

[THUNDER HANDS]

55. they both bash eachother

both campaign managers have been tossing bombs at eachother. It's a bit unseemly, but that's politics.

[Renew Deal]

56. Two man race.

Kerry wants to make this a two man race. Kerry vs. Dean. I think it is a mistake. All he talked about was why Bush sucks and why Dean sucks. No mention of the other candidates and nothing like: If I were president I would... some clear statement.

[bearfartinthewoods]

132. yes he did mak a definitive 'when i am president' statements

on of which involved the UN.

[Renew Deal]

138. Might have missed.

I might have missed it. That was the impression I had gotten at the time. I really want to go through that transcript. He said a lot that I feel needs to be reviewed.

[kentuck]

8. Dean is his primary opponent at this time...it's human nature.

If he loses in NH and Iowa to Dean, it will be a difficult road ahead for him. He needs to win one of those states. So he's not worried about George Bush at this time - he's worried about Howard Dean.

[CMT]

9. this is true

and the same could be said for Dean. I think Dean can get away with losing Iowa to Gep but now anything less than second in Iowa for Dean will probably be interpeted as a loss. I think too it is essential that Dean win NH. Front runner has many advantages but also as many disadvantages.

[bearfartinthewoods]

22. huh?? he just ducked three oportunities to do so.

it seems to me he's going out of his way not to dis Dean.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. Agree.

He deliberately avoided taking swipes at him despite Whoressert continually giving him the opportunity. He even chastised his own campaign for doing it(whether that is having it boths way is another question entirely).

He took the high road. He deserves credit for this.

[glarius]

74. Read my answer #5....I said there I posted too soon

:)

[Judson39]

114. Kerry

They all sound good when they are looking for votes.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[clar]

10. As I watch this

all I can focus on is how much I LOATHE TIM RUSSERT.

[CMT]

12. I wonder if he would be half as tough on Bush

as he is against our democratic candidates who appear on his show.

[glarius]

14. Why did Kerry have to say Bush is LIKEABLE???

Ooohh WHY did Kerry have to say Bush is likeable? Bush is NOT LIKEABLE! When are these guys going to stop thinking they have to say that?

[Karmadillo]

20. A likeable fellow with no vision. He has to appeal to moderates

and he has to position himself to be able to go afterr Bush without making it a personal (and, therefore, easily dismissed) attack.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/politics/1813564/detail.html

<edit>

Kerry called President George W, Bush a likeable fellow with no vision.

"I think we need a presidency that sees the problems -- not down the road -- but today and responds immediately to those needs," Kerry said.

more...

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/062703_kerry_ed_board_2003.shtml

<edit>

Kerry said that Bush is "a very likeable fellow" and that he has no quarrel with him on a personal level.

"I just don't agree with his blurring of the lines of church and state," Kerry said. "I don't like his attorney general trampling on civil rights in the country. I disagree with his indifference towards average working people in America who should get help. I just have fundamental disagreements of policies."

more...

[shance]

135. There you have it.

"A likeble fellow with no vision."

Seems to sum it up for Kerry.

[OKNancy]

21. Because that's what politicians do

Someone who actually wants to get elected has to be careful. It has always been that way and it always will be. Sometimes it's better to just be diplomatic.

[glarius]

98. I think the main reason Bush is as high as he is in the poles is because

Everyone keeps saying he's a "nice man" and not pointing out what a SHIT he really is! IMO

[polpilot]

23. If you 'like' someone then you say they're 'likable'. Clear admiration.

Dean '04...

[Karmadillo]

24. Clearly not the case. Kerry pointed out he disagreed with Bush

on just about everything the Administration has done (or hasn't done). I doubt that Kerry would have gone to bat for Al Gore on the Bush AWOL/cocaine issues if he had "admired" Bush.

Kerry has to be able to effectively attack Bush without being tagged with the "mean-spirited" label with which the corporate media wrongly tagged Gore in 2000. Today, at least, it worked.

[alfredo]

83. Kerry is taking a page from the Mark Anthony speech

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.

The evil the men do lives after them;

The good is oft interred with their bones;

So let it me with Caesar. The noble Brutus

Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:

If it were so, it was a grievous fault;

And grievously hath Caesar answer’d it.

Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest,-

For Brutus is an honourable man;

So are they all, all honourable men,-

Come I to speak in Caesar’s funeral.

He was my friend, faithful and just to me:

But Brutus says he was ambitious;

And Brutus is and honourable man.

<snip>

[oasis]

116. Rove's spin network is attempting to characterize "Bush haters" as

being on the "fringe" of American society. Kerry must carefully chart a navigation through what could be a public relations blunder if he aggresively attacks a popular pResident.

[Andy_Stephenson]

107. Never

Because Kerry does like Bush. Look at the war vote. Kerry knew the intelligence was bad. Hell I knew it was bad.

[jos]

118. Typical beltway mentality

That's why Kerry is in the trouble he's in.

[Karmadillo]

13. Now that's a post to unite all DUers no matter what candidate they

support.

[Cha]

62. A-MEN!

[moondust]

16. Kerry is toast.

He's been wrong too many times on too many issues.

He still thinks he was right and Sen. Byrd was wrong about giving Bush a blank check on Iraq.

Russert has a quote of him praising the Republican congressional onslaught of 1994. Kerry blamed Democrats.

etc., etc., too much to document.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

17. While Kerry's not my 1st choice at the moment....

and I'm not thrilled by all his answers to Russert's antagonistic questions/accusations, I would easily support him if he won the Primary.

(But then I would have to pause and think hard before voting if it was a choice between Dubya & Hannibal Lechter)

[Renew Deal]

31. He won't win.

His personality is not compelling. I want to run away from the TV right now.

[chaumont58]

41. I agree, and...

another drawback is his physical appearance. He looks like a character from the 60s tv shows, the Munsters and/or the Adams Family. During the coming 2004 general election campaign, the repukes could do ads morphing Herman Munster to John Kerry and back. It would be difficult to tell when one began and the other left off.
Its a sad comment, but I think it is true.

[Yavin4]

59. I Would Go With Lechter

He's far more moral than Bush. Bush has killed five times as many people as Lechter.

[Cha]

66. lector has more class!

[GCP]

93. No question, Hannibal would get my vote!

I wouldn't have to think about it at all.

[T Roosevelt]

18. Statements like that really bother me

He's likable...I think he means well...BS - you can't say things like that and then have any credibility criticizing their policies, which is exactly what Kerry did. Stop being politically nice - obviously Kerry doesn't think he means well, or he wouldn't be saying he disagrees with everything * does.

And the proper response to the intellectual question is "I am astounded that someone of his intellectual capacity has achieved the most powerful position in the world...I am just stupefied."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. Had a chance to whack Whistle Ass about his lack of knowledge

and back-peddled.

Didn't give up S&B secrets, lol.


Pretty good performance by Kerry, didn't take too much of Whoressert's shit, whiffed on a few softballs though. Grade: B

[bearfartinthewoods]

27. WOOHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! HE COMING OUT FOR MEANS TESTING SS

hallejula...someone willing to bite that bullet. the weathiest recepiants get back everything they/ve paid in plus interest by age 77. from then on, their bennies are funded by people who may only be making 20 grand a year.

how is that progressive???? why should poor people be funding the retirement of people who make ten times more money?

finally...Kerry delights me!!!!

[Karmadillo]

34. TNR summary of his musings on this issue

It will be interesting to see how this one works out. I imagine a lot of Dems might fear this will reduce support for the program. After all, if the rich can't get lots more than they deserve, what's the point of their supporting a program that does nothing but help those who are in need?

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=610

<edit>

Kerry mused about means-testing Social Security, allowing wealthy seniors to recoup their payments into the system but no more, leaving more money for people who truly need it. He also suggested raising the cap on per-year income subject to Social Security taxation, which now stands at a relatively modest $86,000. "Maybe people ought to pay up to $100,000 or $120,000, I don't know," Kerry mused.

more...

[jos]

119. Why is that something to be celebrating?

That would just turn the program into another welfare program, making it easier to cut because it will have less support. If this is what Kerry's for, I'm glad he's sinking.

Lift the cap on FICA taxes if you need to. There's no reason to be cutting benefits.

[Jackpine Radical]

122. You're exactly right.

That's one of the major reasons no reputable Dem thinker has ever proposed means testing SS. As long as the rich get their money out, they aren't going to fight it very hard. If it starts looking like an elderly welfare program, it won't survive.

[Renew Deal]

28. Kerry stinks

He is condescending and seems like he doesn't understand the issues. This guy stinks. He is also not taking responsibility for voting for the war. He will not win the nomination. Voters will never go for this guy. There is nothing compelling about him.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

78. Actually yes

Did you watch him? What about him is going to draw new people to his campaign. He seemed condescending and confused. He says one thing now and something else a while ago.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Upfront]

105. Kerry Led Me

away from wanting him as my # 2 choice. In fact I now will rethink my long held position of anybody but Bush. Dean said he did not vote for the war but some of the other guys did, and that was an accurate statement. Kerry says Dean will not be able to lead the country because he has no foreign affairs experience, and wil raise your taxes 20 times. He did himself and the democrats no favor today. Looks more like a republican lite to me. Dean has more leadership ability in his litle finger then Kerry does in his whole body. Dean all the way!

[diamond14]

109. Kerry can WIN and that should be the MOST important issue...

Kerry/Clark
Kerry/Edwards

Kerry also exposed the real vulnerability in Dean...Dean has NO foreign policy experience, and as Kerry noted: look at the guy in the WH to see what happens when the pResident has NO foreign policy experience....

Dean has major issues in NO foreign policy, no International experience...and his draft issues are MAJOR....the 'cheap-labor conservatives' likely already have photos of Dean skiing at Aspen, which they will put up against bush* in his ANG flight suite...

OUR country wants someone to lead us out of the Iraq mess, and PROTECT our country from further attacks...Kerry has that background...Dean doesn't

that's why Rove and his minions are probably FUNDING Dean's campaign...because they KNOW that Kerry can BEAT bush*....

[oasis]

117. Was he compelling enough to keep you at your T.V.? see post # 31

[Octafish]

29. Kerry is showing Russert who's boss.

And that's Kerry. Without sounding condescending or flustered, Kerry has answered every question. In so doing, he's demonstrated that he is a better thinker than the anti-DEM Russert.

BTW: I can see why certain backers of other candidates don't like my horse. Kerry's knowledge, demeanor, and vision clearly demonstrate why he is the best candidate to serve as President of the United States.

[Renew Deal]

33. That's a joke.

Russert is roasting him. Kerry is all over the place. This guy isn't presidential. He is perfect for the senate.

[Octafish]

47. Like you would know a Liberal Democrat if you knew one.

The guy's been on the side of civil rights, organized labor, women's rights, small business, veterans. Oh yeah — strong on national defense. He's a real Leader.



Instead of bashing Kerry, learn something about someone you know nothing about. You'll discover he's the best candidate:

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/

[Renew Deal]

76. Not the point

You said: "Kerry is showing Russert who's boss." I said that's not true. I was not arguing whether he was good for labor or whatever.

You said: You'll discover he's the best candidate:

You think reading this is going to change the quality of his performance on MTP. I am not bashing. I was watching objectively unlike you. I was hoping that Kerry would be my guy. I am not happy about his performance today.

[bearfartinthewoods]

40. yes...he certainly has set a standard for the other candidates

it really shows the defecits of other candidates's ability to handle this type of media.......

[THUNDER HANDS]

37. Kerry Is Kicking MAJOR Ass

He is lightyears ahead of every other Dem candidate who's appeared on Meet the Press this year.

He's answering every question in a straightforward, concise, honest way. He comes across as strong, intelligent, well-spoken and humble.

He's absolutely blowing away both Dean and Edwards. I like Dean, and wish Russert had treated him a bit nicer, but Dean made statements that lead to Russert bashing him.

Kerry is pounding every Russert fastball over the fence.

He is head and shoulters (literally and figuratively) above every other candidate.

This is an EXCELLENT performance by Kerry.

:bounce:

[Pepperbelly]

39. I agree with your assessment for the most part although ...

he did let Timmy slip one past him when he tried to conflate a two income family with the raising of the upper limits on the payroll tax. He should have jammed it right back down Timmy's throat because the payroll tax is an individual tax, not a joint tax. Each of those $60K earners are already paying SS tax on ALL of their income and the so-called marriage penalty is irrelevant in this case.

Otherwise, I though Kerry did well, at least in the last 15 minutes or so that I caught.

[nostamj]

38. the best thing about this interview (so far)

is Kerry hammering on the LIES that preceded the Senate 'war' vote.

NOT TRUE
NOT TRUE
NOT TRUE
NOT TRUE

winning the election will mean exposing * on every lie until his 'base' (the people, NOT the miniscule # that invest in and profit from his presidency) understand that they have been systematically deceived on nearly every issue.

the people who support the troops won't support being lied to when it affects their income, their jobs, their children's lives

[Renew Deal]

42. Kerry is a snake

Watch him. His tongue keeps coming out of his mouth like a snake.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Egnever]

43. For the love of god!

Just answer the fucking question !

[janx]

65. He can't do that.

He has been in D.C. too long.

[Egnever]

87. Aparently so

Its dissapointing

[Fabio]

44. Impressions

Here are my impressions of JK's performance:

1) Very well prepared and direct with Tim Russert. Not defensive, but no pushover either. I thought this was best exemplified in his pushback on the vetting of his economic plan/deficit reduction package.

2) Sufficiently harsh on GWB, but could have had a field day with the Vogue quote. Still, critical about the administration without seeming personal.

3) 35 minutes without a commercial break and constantly talking about Iraq. That's quite a marathon. I know the IWR was a difficult position for JK to take at the time. I know he stands by his vote in a very real way. I think voters can and should know that it was a exceedingly difficult personal decision to make, but one made with a larger set of decision criteria than just yea or nea of GWB trustworthiness as CIC.

4) Let me say first off that Howard Dean is not my favorite, mostly because he has been throwing bombs at JK since last summer (some deserved, most not IMHO... and yes, JK is predictably my guy). But I thought JK was very fair in his critique of Howard Dean --> always objective and policy focused, never personal in tone --> I just wish that HD took that stance with JK. (not flame bait)

5) PAC money issue is HUGE to me personally. It is one of the roots of JK's progressive credentials, and I am happy he got to say it.

6) Finally, enough Deborah Orin (NYPost) and Boston Herald quotes to squash any rumors of liberal media bias. Nice people.

Overall grade: A-, but arguably a B+, as I saw room for improvement in general and specifically in terms of expressing some of his personal misgivings about IWR, despite being firm about vote.

Comments?

[Pepperbelly]

45. {{SIGH}} I see the bashers are at it early today...

and over some pretty irrelevant crap too.

Give it a rest, folks. The bashing convinces no one and only makes you and YOUR camp look bad. Of course, if you don't mind looking bad or making your camp look bad, it is up to you.

[Octafish]

54. Funny how they think they're smart not running with an avatar.

That way, it shows the world they are really neutral. How kewl.

Here's another false-flag operation:



"Fair play for Cuba, Mr. Bannister?"

[Renew Deal]

63. Not a basher

I was hoping that Kerry would be my backup candidate. I am not happy with this today. His style and performance will not play well with an electorate that desires leadership. Kerry says one thing and then says another or does another. And then in the end he tells how how good of a man Bush is.

[Egnever]

88. Observe my avatar

This did not go well for kerry

[Terwilliger]

110. Howard Dean

"dead who ran" also works

[Egnever]

113. interesting

you'r right it does.

[Renew Deal]

46. "Bush is a likeable man, that is a good man trying to do good things."

Kerry said that.

Implication: If Bush is doing good things, leave him there.

:wtf:

[THUNDER HANDS]

50. whatever

I said he's a likeable fellow, and I'm sure to some people he is.

But he said he disagrees with basically everything he stands for and has done since taking office and that he's leading the country in the wrong direction.

Kerry gave the best performance of anyone today. He handled almost a half hour straight, with no interruptions, no looking down at his notes like Dean did constantly.

Kerry is smart, comes prepared for interviews and answers questions in a straightforward manner.

Dean could learn something from him. I hope he was watching today's show.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pepperbelly]

61. this post is kinda-sorta...

well, specifically against the rules, friend.

Just thought I'd point that out. But hey, they absolutely deleted one of my posts yesterday so who am I to talk?

:toast:

[Malikshah]

67. Uh..post as litmus test

How completely pathetic.

Some folks like myself had only recently discovered the DU, read for a while, and have only begun posting.

I'm so sorry if that offends your purist sentiment.

Attack the logic of someone's argument, attack their use and/or abuse of evidence.

But to attack their post count is counter-productive and wrong.

[Renew Deal]

70. How do I increase posts...

without posting. Just because I am new to DU doesn't mean that I am new to the political scene. No where does it say at DU that I need to post 1000 times to have an opinion. You saw Kerry say that. What do you think?

[bearfartinthewoods]

128. TRYING...he said trying

your implication is flawed

[dsc]

48. He did well for the most part

but I have to say that we can not call the restoration of the tax code a tax increase no matter whose taxes we are talking about. Clinton had to spend virtually all of his political capital for his first two years to get his slight tax increase. If we persist in calling this restoration a tax increase either it won't happen at all or it will cost us all our political capital to make it happen.

[janx]

60. I can't agree that he did well, exactly...

He didn't fall on his face, but there were places in which he seemed to flounder. He just can't get past his early support for the Iraq war.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

90. I noticed

that when Kerry talked about repealing the tax cuts for the rich he named that "a rollback", but when he talked about Dean repealing the entire tax cut it was called by Kerry "a tax increase on the working and middle class."

[birdman]

49. I can't believe Russert asked about Skull and Bones

Maybe he's becoming a conspiracy theorist.

[THUNDER HANDS]

51. that was just stupid

All those policy questions, then he ends up with that remark.

Russert is really an asshole.

:mad:

[Andy_Stephenson]

100. What was Kerry's answer....

I would love to know...now I do. Won't answer a direct question about it. As I figured.

[Terwilliger]

57. Sorry John, you DID authorize the liar to do the war any way he wanted to

you knew exactly what you were getting in to, and you were WRONG to give Bush the authority.

You can't `splain yourself out of it, John. I won't be voting for your nomination.

[Old and In the Way]

86. Why do you say that Terwilliger?

Did you have a crystal ball back in October that told you that SH had no WMD? I assumed our President was telling the American people and Congress the truth. I suspected he was lying, but I didn't know that for certain. I wasn't privvy to the facts....heck, maybe SH did have UAV's on barges ready to fumigate the NE with Biologics.

Would I expect my Congress to look out for my families best interests based on the best information they were given? You betcha! Would you want to be the person voting "NO WAR" and have a million people killed because you failed to act?

As it turned out, Bush lied to us, the Congress, and the world. He should be impeached and tried/convicted, and jailed as a war criminal.

Put the blame squarely where it belongs...not on Congress that has to make decisions based on bad data that was supplied to them by this administration.

But really, we know you have no horse in this race....except, of course, to see the Democrats lose so your "Independent"Party (whatever that might be) will gain from the wreckage.

[Terwilliger]

97. response

Did you have a crystal ball back in October that told you that SH had no WMD? I assumed our President was telling the American people and Congress the truth. I suspected he was lying, but I didn't know that for certain. I wasn't privvy to the facts....heck, maybe SH did have UAV's on barges ready to fumigate the NE with Biologics.

Maybe there was intelligence suggesting that terrorists might fly planes into buildings. Oh, there was. President Bush decided not to act on that intelligence, and we had 9/11. Why did John Kerry, or any other Democrat, give George Bush ONE IOTA of credibility? Because it was politically expedient to do so?

Saddam Hussein has been a brutal thug dictator since he was a young man, and American men came to him and said "what do you need?" and in 1958, the CIA brought the Ba'athists to power. From that moment on, Saddam was in control of Iraq. He was never going to attack other countries without support or incentive. He was never going to give weapons to people who would likely as not use them on him. He has always been the pawn of the United States and its interests. And since George Bush used to head the CIA, I think he's very familiar with the American men who met with Saddam in those early days.

This is all a matter of record...does it escape Mr. Kerry or other Democrats, who are supposed to be far smarter than I?

20,000 Iraqi dead this year...500,000 dead over the course of 12 years of brutal sanctions against our boy Saddam...an estimated 100,000 Iraqi dead as a direct result of the Gulf War. Nearly 400 in-theater American dead in the first War on Iraq....nearly that many in the current conflict.

What is it that Kerry and other Democrats don't understand?

Would I expect my Congress to look out for my families best interests based on the best information they were given? You betcha! Would you want to be the person voting "NO WAR" and have a million people killed because you failed to act?

Sorry, Saddam was no threat. You were duped or chose to ignore that.

As it turned out, Bush lied to us, the Congress, and the world. He should be impeached and tried/convicted, and jailed as a war criminal.

Along with the Democrats who willingly participated in the deception.

Put the blame squarely where it belongs...not on Congress that has to make decisions based on bad data that was supplied to them by this administration.

This administration...that administration...some other administration... When do you actually suggest that they should put a stop to it?

But really, we know you have no horse in this race....except, of course, to see the Democrats lose so your "Independent"Party (whatever that might be) will gain from the wreckage.

If Democrats are really the liberals they claim to be, I'd like to see something more than pandering and political tactics. ONE time!

You are old and in the way. Fuck the system. Make a new system. Stop the killing. Stop the nonsense.


OnEdit: formatting

[Old and In the Way]

111. Thanks for the response.

But you really didn't answer my questions...we all know the SH/US connection. But the fact is, this administration told us, Congress, and the world that SH was minutes away from wrecking havoc on us. They had the evidence...or so they said.

Again, based on whatever data was was parsed/cooked to make the case, aren't our Congresspeople pledged to protect our national interests? If there was a chance, even 1% chance, that SH was planning a terrorist attack, and you had voted not to address it, wouldn't you be at least partially responsible for the outcome? And the 1st anniversary of 9/11 was weeks old....you don't think that was a reinforcing image to justify Congress's concerns about terrorist attacks (again, we are talking about the uninformed public here, not the DU). I can understand how many Congresspeople took the easy way out and elected to toss it to the UN. It was a no win situation either way for the Democrats. Vote no and be smeared as "anti-American, pro-SH supporters" by the Corporate Republican Media machine or elect to allow Bush to make his case in the UN, fully expecting that the UN would strip any pretense of justification for an invasion.

I am not happy with the vote, but I am even unhappier that Karl Rove used this as a cynical political hammer just before the mid-terms. You know full well what and who made this war happen and it wasn't the Democrats. Why don't you spend more time over on the RNC websites bleating your righteous indignation on the people who truly deserve it?

Or please show me who (Lieberman excluded) in the Democratic Party was making the case to attack SH prior to Bush's marketing campaign on the need to have "War on IraqII".

[Eloriel]

120. Good rant, Mr. T

If Kerry didn't know, he should have. 95% of DUers knew very, very well that there WERE no WMD, or at least not in any quantity as to pose a threat.

We also knew Bush couldn't be trusted, with NOTHIN'. And if anyone in Congress doesn't know that, they ought to resign for their stupidity alone.

We also knew about PNAC, and before that Brzezinksi's little tome. And before that -- 10 years before that!! -- Donnie Rumsfeld and company's little "let's take over the world" policy piece the Bush1 administration had to scuttle.

The other 5% of DUers either weren't around DU enough to know, or were just too afraid of the whole terra-ist threat to see it.

Too, there were plenty of Congresspeople who didn't think Iraq was a threat. Not enough of them, but a good handful.

No excuses for Kerry or anyone else. The WAR, in the meantime, rages on. And our boys are dying by the day, and some women too, as we pour $5 billion a MONTH down the hell-hole Bush created, with Kerry's and Gephardt's and Edwards' help. Help? Hell, their eager endorsement.

And I'll say something else. I think it's a fucking outrage for Kerry to go on national TV and say Bush is a likeable fellow who is trying to do good things. If Kerry would pry his lips away from Georgie's ass (not to mention the damn polls showing how popular Bush is), maybe he'd get enough "perspective" to see the truth.

Some "leader."

Eloriel

[Old and In the Way]

125. Hi Eloriel.

So do you think the Senator should have had his own special intel to confer with? Maybe his own private network of agents in Iraq? Or do you think he should have said, "well, I have been reading the DU boards and those smart posters know what's really going on. I have to vote no."?

Or maybe he was representing the majority of his voters in Massachussetts? Maybe his feedback from those who count told him that they believed the CIA and this administration and he needs to support the motion to let this administration take it's case to the UN. So much better to thumb your nose at your electorate and vote against something when you may not have the facts and you might be wrong, right?

I'm still waiting for Terwilliger to answer my questions in the 1st post...instead of ranting about how morally perfect his hindsight his position is way up on Mt. Righteousness.

As far as Kerry saying George is likeable...is he stating his personal opinion or the national polling? Sadly, it does appear that a majority of Americans think he's a nice guy. Not sure that is Kerry's fault, though..

[Terwilliger]

130. Sorry Eloriel, I don't like Dean

I think he's as trustworthy as a pimp.

That's my impression! I can't get over some things, and I don't understand the rationale behind the insistency of so many people. What Dean has is the power and majesty of the active wing (activist and truly liberal) for some reason, and I just don't buy it. He's not the person you should be behind.

Frankly, it's like people looking for another Bill Clinton. That's sad enough in and of itself.

[poskonig]

58. Kerry is the next Lieberman.

Bashing other Democrats as wanting to raise taxes '20 fold' and weak on defense (this is from the moron who voted to authorize Bush!) really pisses me off.

Living in Illinois, I'm *definitely* going to make certain I volunteer in Iowa and Wisconsin to ensure this guy loses.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[THUNDER HANDS]

71. hey could have bashed Dean like an immature baby

And called him "McGovern-lite" but he didn't. He said Dean is running a good campaign, but his support for repealing ALL of the Bush tax cuts will raise taxes for middle class families and people making $40,000 a year will have their taxes increased.

I'm not a tax expert, but I'm sure that's something close to the truth.

Why can't you just say I support DEAN, (I'm guessing you support Dean) and I'll hope he wins.

Why do you have to say I'll go to Iowa and Wisconsin to "ensure he loses."

You do this party no help.

[Old and In the Way]

127. So if he wins the nomination, will you support the Party?

Or will you help to re-elect Bush in 2004?

[alcuno]

64. I haven't really listened to Kerry before. He sounds desperate.

He and Timmy were just going back and forth about Kerry's support for the war. Kerry seemed to fall back on the "mass graves" neo-con argument. Then he said he supported the president because * could have gone to war without the consent of Congress anyways. Huh?

He started to twist himself like a pretzel.

[JNelson6563]

69. boy it is really obvious

that Russert is out to trip up any candidate from the Dem party. I thought Kerry did alright, nothing negative that I found all that notable.

As a Dean supporter, while I have a real problem with the whole Iraq resolution thing (and all that was behind it) I would definitely vote for Kerry if he won the nom. While he's not my first choice he'd be infinitely better than the Simain. I sure wouldn't be embarrassed to have him represent us abroad--like with our current pResident.

I think the more our candidates speak on the issues and don't fall for whore-media flame bait about each other, Bush will get the beating of a lifetime.

Go Dems!!! :toast:

Julie

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VolcanoJen]

80. Amen, Brother Pete!!!

It's so goddamned frustrating to me, the constant bashing of any candidate who is not Howard Dean. It's becoming so tired, and so transparent. What I find even more disturbing is that, well, I like Dean, but his proponents are actually starting to turn me off entirely. :-(

I'm one of the undecided folks out here, and Kerry impresssed me today with his calm, studied but firm rebuttals of Russert's attacks. Foreign Policy is my big issue, and he's more than qualified in that area. I'm listening to each of the candidates, and carefully, and with an open mind, because I have an important decision to make. If I want to hear posters attack Democrats, especially seasoned "good guys" like John Kerry, I'll run on over to FreeRepublic.

I have to say that it's unfortunate I can't run over to my friends at DU and read about our candidates' appearances on the Sunday morning talk shows anymore without becoming dismayed at our responses.

How could anyone here have a problem with his responses to the Vogue article question?

"I disagree with the Presiden't approach to almost everything he's done... almost everything. If you look at America and the choices we fact today, Tim, on the budget, he's favoring the wealthy in America at the expense of the middle class. He's ignored the plight of job loss in America. He's gone backwards on the environment, backwards on cities and urban... look, we've given a tax cut to people while states are being forced to raise taxes and cut services. He's gone backwards in the international community; he is not making us safer in the world. He has ignored the problems in North Korea to the point that they're a crisis. We should be freezing right where we are with North Korea today. We should be dealing with Russia and the problem of loose nuclear materials more effectively. We should be leading the world on the issue of global warming."

Look, I realize everyone here is passionate about their candidates, but Kerry is on our side, and his hour-long exposure to people today is a good thing for progressives. Keeping the focus on the failures of the Bush Administration is the key to electing a Dem president in 2004, and I feel Kerry did an excellent, sober and thorough job of that today.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

129. A breath of fresh air.

Thanks Julie...I think that's a fair position.

Personally, I think all the candidates are going to have warts and issues which we can find fault with, but, at the end of the day, every single one of our candidates are significantly better than the current administration.

I like to think each candidate would bring unique strengths to the Presidency and I'd rather see posts that extoll and expand on these characteristics and capabilities.

[jos]

72. The president has "inherent authority"

argument he made would erase Congress's power to declare war from the constitution. Kosovo and Haiti was more trying to end an internal mess in those countries. It was not a full-fledged war AGAINST those countries, the way Iraq was.

He's in a weak position because all he can say is that Bush lied to him. While that's true, it doesn't say much about his judgment in believing Bush in the first place.

[Terwilliger]

75. "Let me explain what I said..."

why didn't you say it right the first time?

"I don't know...we need to look at that..."

You need to look at that?! Just what the hell are you doing? How many years of service do you have to have to be able to explain what you think?

[Terwilliger]

77. Kerry thinks Bush is a good man who is trying to good things

WHAT FUCKIN PLANET IS HE ON?!?!?!?!??!?!

No wonder this idiot voted to givge him war authority. I'm getting to the point where I wont vote for Kerry if he gets the nomination.

[THUNDER HANDS]

79. then leave DU then

If you're not going to support whoever the Dem nominee is, then why are you here?

[Renew Deal]

82. Be a leader

I don't agree with Terwilliger on everything, but he is entitled to his opinion. Maybe that's an indication of how poor Kerry's performance was today. You can't tell him to leave DU. If you don’t like what he says, maybe you should leave. It is ridiculous. I think you should be a leader like him and criticize something you don't like instead of being a follower that just agrees with everything your candidates says.

[Terwilliger]

89. same reason you are

trying to retake my country from the barbarians (pssssssst...they're not all Republicans!!!)

[Old and In the Way]

126. You are right, Terwilliger.

Some of them were Nader voters! :D

[Terwilliger]

131. hmm

and Nader voters have influence on the power in this country?

You're not just old, you're tired.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

91. Sheesh

Grow up, please.

[Dover]

81. WOW! Russert gave THE most satisfying, indepth, comprehensive and

hard-hitting interview I have ever seen a candidate receive. He asked all the questions I wanted answered. I want him to do this with EVERY candidate. I also want the the press and the American people to do it, too....hold their feet to the fire until they cough up the goods. We NEED TO KNOW!!!

As for Kerry.....while appreciate that he is quick on his feet and articulate, he does not offer anything new...not domestically, and not with regard to foreign policy. He might have been more diplomatic and patient before resorting to war but the goals have been very similar to Bushco's. He IS the status quo that got this country here to begin with (with a lot of help from Bush, but it is also due to failures on many fronts over time).

What disturbs me the most about Kerry (if you believe what he says) and those who joined him in signing the War Resolution was that he trusted/believed Bushco and could not read these people and their intentions better....even after everything that had already come to pass. I don't actually believe him....I think it's more likely that his and Bushco's goals were similar enough regarding Iraq that he was willing to sign on.

I think Kerry has tried a variety of excuses for his signing and there really is no excuse.

[not systems]

84. What about the number 322?

Man how is "That's a secret." going to play in Peoria.

What is this - I want to be the president but I can't
tell you anything about my college spanking society.

Creepy.

I have been generally favorable to Kerry but the
man needs a better answer on Skull and Bones, the
answer he gave must be funny to the insiders but
I though it was wierd. He needs a line that is
funny for outsiders also.

[birdman]

96. S&B is a total non-issue

What difference does it make if Kerry belonged to S&B
or Lamda Lamda Lamda or Animal House ?

Only the morbidly conspiratorial could think this is
important.

[Andy_Stephenson]

104. Oh here we go....

Only the morbidly conspiratorial could think this is important.


Dismiss something important enuf for Russert to ask about. If it is not important, why won't Kerry answer?

[JVS]

136. It is indicative of an oligarchy that would have made Brezhnev blush

[Egnever]

85. This did not go well for kerry

couple things i noticed. Will wait for the transcripts to be positive but...

It sounded like he was nailed as lying to the people just like bush did about the contents of the inteligence reports. Also that he became a waffler on social security just like dean was. Did he say he wanted to invade cuba?

Like i say will wait for he transcripts but it looked really bad for kerry to me. I dont have anything against kerry I would vote for him if he gets the nod but i dont think this interview helped him even a little bit. He did come across likeable though. Not as wooden as i expected.

[Andy_Stephenson]

99. Stick a fork in him

he's done.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grasswire]

106. so...

...when is George scheduled for MTP?

[ryharrin]

108. Ugh. Did it bother anyone that Kerry was using repub talking points

when discussing Dean? He said that Dean wants to raise middle class people's taxes by 20x. Also, focusing on security/defense plays right into Bush's "strength"

[barbaraann]

121. It made me furious.

And it also made me furious that he kept talking about how much the middle class is suffering. Does he have ANY IDEA how the poor people are suffering in this county?

Does he have any idea that there are people who used to be middle class who are facing poverty and sometimes homelessness and are now NOT MIDDLE CLASS??? I know some of the people and they sure as hell aren't worried about whether their goddamn taxes are increased. They are worried about FEEDING THEIR CHILDREN.

There was a story on Northwest Cable News last night about how the eviction rate in King County is escalating. They showed an IT worker with children who has been unemployed for two years and is facing possible eviction from his home. This is NOT a taxation problem--this is a survival problem.

There is a lot of desperation here in Washington State. I can tell you that these desperate people are not worried about federal income taxes. They are worried about jobs and health care and putting food on the table, goddamit.

I'm furious because I know a lot of desperate people and my husband and I personally spend a lot of time trying to help them survive. The middle-level federal income tax schedules are a very, very minor part of the problem.

[IndianaGreen]

123. I noticed that Kerry bought the Bush line about "tax increases"

Kerry is also all wet when he was talking about reducing the deficit. This was perhaps the weakest part of the interview. Kerry sounded like Arnold, dropping the names of economic advisors he had surrounded himself with.

The dumbest statement was when Kerry said he could cut the Pentagon's budget, without cutting weapons systems. Kerry should take a good look at Rumsfeld's management of the Pentagon. Rumsfeld is in the process of outsourcing the vast majority of Defense jobs to the private sector. There are no savings there to be realized (as a matter of fact, direct outsourcing cost more money to the taxpayer but it benefits the big corporations).

Kerry's appearance on MTP showed his strong points, and his critical flaws. It also showed why he would lose to Bush in an election. It took Kerry 20 minutes to get around to giving a tortuous explanation of his vote on the Iraq war. A fine defense by Kerry of an indefensible point IMHO, but a defense that was too nuanced, and too complex for the average couch potato to comprehend.

Kerry's strongest points was when he was attacking Bush for over-stretching the military and for bungling the post-Saddam Iraq.

Kerry's biggest failure was to even acknowledge the moral bankruptcy of the American occupation of Iraq!

On the more mundane side, did anyone notice how Kerry dodged the question about Skull and Bones?

Final assessment: Kerry would make a fine President, but Dean would make a better President than Kerry! Kerry and Dean are preferable to Bush!

[gulliver]

133. Bothered me a lot

Kerry questioned Dean's fitness to be president. Very dumb, IMO. The remarks could be replayed in a Republican ad in 2004. Very disappointing.

[barbaraann]

137. And another thing that really bothered me was

when Kerry said "The world is a very dangerous place."

To me, that is the motto of the military-industrial complex instead of a man who wants to be President to achieve peace in the world.

I'm sick of the Skull and Bones chaos and profiteering.

[wuushew]

134. Why did he dismiss Ted Kennedy so easily?

Didn't Kennedy and Byrd have the same info on Iraq?


The show was pretty good otherwise, except the completely unnecessary skull and bones part.

[Dover]

139. Can you imagine BUSH being put through a similar interview? LOL!

He would slither to the floor and fake a pretzel attack!

Why isn't Bush put through these hard hitting interviews...without any props or notes or controlled Rovian protections? That was a rhetorical question of course.

[unfrigginreal]

141. You've got to be joking...

I've never seen Russert go as easy on someone as he did on Kerry today. For Jeebus's sake, he didn't even ask him if we were wrong to go to war with Iraq!

[phegger]

140. For what it's worth

I was not impressed. Granted, I only saw part of the interview, but it irked me that Kerry seemed to be wanting to have it both ways. I still don't really know what his position on the war is. Bush lied, and he's clearly against THAT--thank God--but "anyone who thinks taking on Saddam was a bad idea should visit one of his mass graves". So the invasion is justified on those grounds? Look, the point is not that Bush lied--except that it gives us something easily identifiable as WRONG to hang him with--but that he lied in order to lead us into a war that should never have happened, period. OK, so Kerry is against lying-I should hope so--but is he against the war?? I still don't know.

And what was that about Cuba? We should travel there but not trade...we should have some kinds of contact but not others. Look, either end the embargo, or don't end the embargo. Stop trying to have it all ways. Maybe I'm just too dumb to understand nuance, but it seems to me that this kind of equivocating is exactly why so many people are so justifiably pissed off at the Democratic party.

ph :mad:

[0007]

142. In my opinion John Kerry looked weak

in defending himself.