Should the Cuban embargo be lifted?

[goobergunch]

Poll question: Should the Cuban embargo be lifted?

In light of this LBN story.

[goobergunch]

1. I voted "Yes", it should be lifted. (n/t)

[JitterbugPerfume]

2. yep

it should have been lifted a long time ago

[Mika]

3. Absolutely should be lifted

Even a majority of Cuban-Americans want the embargo to be lifted, despite the mewlings by the minority of extremist "exiles" in Miami.

[donsu]

4. yes

nt

[redeye]

5. Undecided

On the one hand, the embargo actively screws Cuba by denying it key products. On the other, lifting it will screw it by letting Fidel have the power to continue his repressive policies. On yet another, continuing it will legitimize Fidel and increase the chance that after he dies Cuba will still be communist. Etc., etc...

So I'm undecided.

[Mika]

7. Give the Cuban people more credit than that

"On the other, lifting it will screw it by letting Fidel have the power to continue his repressive policies. On yet another, continuing it will legitimize Fidel and increase the chance that after he dies Cuba will still be communist."



Does anyone really think that Castro forced the Cuban people to develop a 1st class health care system for all Cubans, forced the Cuban people to develop a 1st class education system for their children, forced the Cuban people to develop a full & complete social infrastructure? It doesn't compute.

The Cuban people, together, worked hard and long to build what they have in free and sovereign Cuba. After their succes kicking out the fully armed & bloodsoaked US supported Batista dictatorship, they are fully empowered and aren't going to take any shit from here on out.

If Americans were not travel banned by their own government from going to Cuba, then this would be common knowledge in the US. 


WB: Learn from Cuba
http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/learn.htm

At the same time <as sanctions and the Soviet collapse>, however, its record of social achievement has not only been sustained; it’s been enhanced, according to the WDI.

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990.  That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

_____

IS CUBA DEMOCRATIC?
http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates. Instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions comprising representatives of all the mass organisations.
The municipal elections are the cornerstone of Cuba's political structure. They comprise delegates who have great authority amongst the local population and who are elected for reasons of known integrity, intelligence, hard work and honesty.

The elections to the provincial and national assemblies (Cuba's regional and national parliaments) follow a different procedure. For deputies to the national assembly the nominating process involves proposals from the municipal councils.

In addition to receiving nominations from different organisations and institutions, the candidacy commissions carry out an exhaustive process of consultation before drawing up a final slate. In the February 1993 elections they consulted more than 1.5 million people and established a pool of between 60 and 70 thousand potential candidates before narrowing it down to 589.

The nominating process and the huge participation in the last election clearly show that the deputies to Cuba's parliament enjoy massive public support.

[redeye]

8. There were elections in Nazi Germany, too

Cuba's rating from freedom house is 7 for both political and civil rights - 7 being the worst grade for both with 1 being the best.

As for Cuba's health care, I've actually read that it'd been in decline since the fall of the Soviet Union. But then again, my source must be Republican propaganda; after all, it's against DU's majority.

[Mika]

9. Freedom House? LOL

Freedom House gets its funding from the NED - the same source as the CANF & Radio and TV Marti.


http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Freedom_House

Freedom House

* R. James Woolsey, Jr., Chairman

__


NED Covert Action Cuba, China, Russia, VN
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/154.html

[redeye]

10. Well...

...apparently the UN finds Freedom House reliable enough; it uses its reports in Human Development Reports, as do studies in comparative politics across national boundaries when they differentiate "free" democracies (average rating of 1, 1.5, or 2) and "unfree" democracies/dictatorships (average rating of 2.5 or more).

[Judi Lynn]

11. Ah, the prestigious FREEDOM HOUSE

(snip) In 1997 Freedom House was given $500,000 by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). This was followed by further USAID funding in 1999 and 2000 totalling $825,000.

It was under Freedom House sponsorship that the so-called "Centre for a Free Cuba" was set up, headed by former CIA agent Frank Calzon and financed by a further USAID donation of $1 million.

Freedom House's role is to recruit politicians, journalists and activists from central and eastern Europe who have experience of the "transition to democracy" and send them to Cuba to help in the formation of "non-governmental organisations" to fight "the Castro dictatorship".

There are plans to publish and distribute leaflets inside Cuba in support of this aim. (snip)

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~cpa/garchve3/1031cuba.html

[FubarFly]

6. Yes. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

12. You bet

Of course I said yes. Fidel isnt my hero but I know he aint horrible, and that hes done some good.

[mitchtv]

13. also repeal the Cuban Readjustment Act

start treating them like we treat the rest of the immigrants. Stop this preferential treatment.

[sujan]

14. I second that

they aren't anymore repressed than say citizens of congo, who are being slaughtered.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Absolutely right.

Also, consider the plight of the Haitians, who come on truly dangerous boats, sometimes with over 100 at a time, from 600 miles away.

As soon as they are caught, they are thrown in jail, then thrown the hey outta the country.

The country to which they return is bedlam. Some Haitians have fled to Cuba. They have even been the subject of study by a Florida professor.

What about the Mexican travellers, who die by the hundreds EVERY YEAR trying to get across the desert from California to Texas.

End the Cuban Adjustment Act. It's indecent.

[sujan]

17. exactly

[Kamika]

16. I voted undecided

I dont think we should let Castro go because he IS a dictator that mistreats his citizens.. BUT asfar as i can tell as always the embargo just punishes the people and not Castro so i think it should remain but get changed.


*to mods** i dont wish to sound like a conservative by saying the embargo should be left, but i think a dictator who is really mean to his people shouldnt be let free, its in no way any conservatism behind it

[Mika]

18. Kick

A :kick: for the late afternoon DUers

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. No

We have no obligation to trade with another nation -- especially a repressive dictatorship.

[sujan]

25. china?

[sujan]

26. pakistan?

[Forkboy]

27. Like I said before

if Muddle is against it I'm all for it.

It's a recipe for being right.

[sujan]

28. muddle should learn more about repercussions of his statement

if USA stops trading with china, both side of the Pacific will be, well, fucked.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. That's true

So start somewhere and keep from trading with MOST repressive dictatorships -- Cuba and North Korea come to mind.

[sujan]

36. so

when do I hear you wanting to stop trading with china?

and I quote you: "We have no obligation to trade with another nation -- especially a repressive dictatorship."

OR

wont you? because you seem to define it very conveniently.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. I would love to, but I am realistic

So, we start small. Having a moral foreign policy has to begin somewhere.

[sujan]

40. nope

you're not realistic. Your position is that of cowardice and hypocrisy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. How so

Oh wise and mighty sage?

If we lose the economic ability to function as a nation, we lose the moral ability to do anything. So, we start small and, in so doing, begin to put pressure on larger repressive nations. The world does not change in a day.

[sujan]

42. no

when you support a repressive regime now I really dont think you can't talk anything 'moral'....

China will get richer and will continually do so. The middle class here will be destroyed. Middle class is the backbone of every society. When your backbone is weak, you will have trouble standing up. When the pressure comes, you might just break yourself.


Cuba has been under US repression for years and I dont see anything changing. Neither has china even though the US tried to stir up trouble with the help of Tibetan Exiles. US is scared of China so likes to push around small nations.

you're right 'The world does not change in a day.'. I am looking to the day when US is no longer the farcical 'superpower' that it thinks it is right now. and good luck with your dreams, it is a dangerous adventure.

[Mika]

43. Huh?

"If we lose the economic ability to function as a nation, we lose the moral ability to do anything."


What the hell are you talking about? :crazy:

Trade with Cuba will cause the US to lose economic ability? WTF?


The US farm belt is seeking trade with Cuba to increase their economic ability, because the billions of dollars that Cuba purchases represent (read: US jobs) have been denied to American businesses and American workers to placate and pander to a small minority of Cuban-Americans in Miami.


It is clearly morally bankrupt to maintain failed sanctions that impact mainly the working men and women, as well as the children of Cuba.

[vision]

20. If interaction with China brings democracy

why doesn't it work the same for Cuba?

[Mika]

21. How about a..

:kick: for the early evening DUers

[CMT]

22. yes

this is a useless cold war embargo that should have been lifeted ages ago.

[Nikia]

23. Yes

Really, there are much more repressive dictatorships. What about China who is one of our biggest trading partners? We trade with many brutal third world dictators, some of whom we give foreign aid. the embargo has gone on long enough. It only hurts the Cuban people.

[sushi]

24. Definitely

I just can't believe it hasn't yet.

[zekeson]

29. It was bad policy

after the first few years - long past due.

[Mika]

30. A Sunday morning..

:kick:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

31. Yes nt

[Mika]

32. Maybe someone can keep this kicked so DUers can take this poll

A Democratic Party :kick:

Maybe someone can keep this kicked so DUers can take this poll. I have to go to work for a few hours.

[John_Shadows_1]

33. Hell yes...

.... If we're so sure that capitalism is best, then how come we're afraid to let a socialist country compete with us?

Cigars and rum, maybe?

[Osolomia]

35. Maybe. In light of the LBN story

on the stance of the 2004 Democratic presidential contenders and the attitudes of many DUers it depends on what you've got in mind for afterwards especially considering the policy for regime change outlined in the 1996 Helms-Burton Act and continued under Bush to this day.

It'll be interesting to see how the debate and vote on Flake's travel bill goes this Thursday. How's your Dem rep voting on it eh?

[Mika]

37. A Sunday afternoon..

kick :kick:

[ButterflyBlood]

39. yes

even if Castro is such a bad guy, the embargo certainly hasn't done in any good in getting rid of him

[Mika]

44. How about a Monday afternoon

bounce. :bounce:

Maybe some Labor Day votes will come in.

[guajira]

45. The Only Beneficiaries of Cuban Embargo are Miami Batistianos!!

No other group benefits except some pandering US politicians!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the embargo is against American businesses, and the travel ban is against American citizens!

This could be the best issue Dems could have - if anyone candidates had the backbone to use it!!!

[DealsGapRider]

46. I think the embargo should be lifted....

...if for no other reason than because it's inconsistent with our robust trade policy with China. And I think trade increases the democratization process in repressive countries. That having been said, I think it's ignorant to suggest that the embargo has had the deleterious effect on Cuba that many Castro apologists suggest. After all, the only countries that honor it are the US and Israel.

DU Castro defenders mystify me. Not only do they greatly exaggerate Cuba's successes when it comes to health care and education, but they ignore the widespread poverty caused by the ineptitude of Castro's economic system and the wholesale deprivations of human rights under the Castro dictatorship. This is a country where homosexuals have been kept in concentration camps, where Castro has murdered thousands of political opponents without trial, where criticism of the state can get you sent to prison for lengthy prison sentences, etc. And the notion that it's a democracy and that Castro is democratically elected is pure fantasy. Those who propagate this myth are delusional.

Every Castro supporter on this board should read this column by Richard Cohen of the Washington Post op-ed page (not exactly a right-winger).

http://www.cubacenter.org/media/archives/2001/summer/life_under_castro.php3

Note this line: "The government only recently freed the journalist Jesus Joel Diaz Hernandez, who was arrested in 1999 and accused of violating Article 72, a ghastly edict right out of Orwell that forbids “conduct that is in manifest contradiction with the norms of socialist morality.” In other words, anything the state says it is."

Yeah, Cuba is free my dick.

[Osolomia]

47. OMG, yet another brainwashed DUer spewing propaganda!

Just for starters and as a classic example of an often used mantra on DU, can anyone show me even one human rights report that says

“Castro has murdered thousands of political opponents without trial”

or any shred of evidence that comes anywhere close?

It’s those who propagate this myth who are delusional!

Why does so much blatant lies and bullshit about Cuba persist in this post cold war post 9-11 day and internet age, especially on a forum such as this, and especially since the embargo is an election issue in at least 35 states?

[guajira]

48. The Cuba Bullshit propaganda couldn't exist if Americans could travel to

Cuba. One major reason Bastistianos want to keep Americans from going to Cuba is so they can feed shit to brain-washed Americans who think everyone who wants to go to Cuba is a commie!!

[reachout]

49. I'm in favor of lifting sanctions.

Largely because I'd like to see a better life available to the people of Cuba. Their standard of living has been steadily declining since the fall of the Soviet Union and I would be in favor of anything that brings them more food, medicine, educational material, etc.

I'm all in favor of freedom and self-detrmination, but I've seen little evidence that those things are brought about by denying basic necessities to the citizens of a country. I would like to help them be fed and clothed then start working with them to build a better political future.

Cuba was a pawn in the Cold War, used by both us and the Soviet Union, each for our own purposes. The former Soviet states really aren't in any position to help Cuba, so that leaves us.

Castro doesn't have many years left on this planet, and I think engagement and a long-term strategy concerning Cuba's political future could benefit both the U.S. and Cuba. We need to start thinking about who will lead that nation next, and what direction it might go.

[guajira]

50. A friendly kick!