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Shadowen Donating Member (742 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:27 PM
Original message
I'm going to be sick.
No, really, I am.

Watching CNN, they're doing a piece on how "troops support President Bush". Aside from the survery numbers they provided:

Bush
Favorable/Unfavorable: 69%/23%

Kerry
Favorable/Unfavorable: 29%/54%

Country
Right Track: 64%/31%

...they also did interviews with soldiers at a ceremony for fallen comrades. One lost both his legs, and says he believed the president "did no wrong" in going to war with Iraq.

From there, they noted that families of active-duty soldiers supported the president slightly less than soldiers themselves.

But they provided a hint of something approaching a balanced report when they noted how behind closed doors and off the record, more soldiers seem to dislike what's going on in the White House--and that those soldiers were under pressure to keep quiet. They noted that even out of uniform, at a bar, they spoke with one soldier who said that he believed the armed forces were overstretched and Bush couldn't do the job anymore, and then asked they not use the interview. (They simply noted this in narration; they didn't actually air the interview. They aren't FOX News.)

Then, it's back to the company line. Now, they're talking about how the Pentagon, obviously aware of the surface numbers, is pushing military personnel, as many as possible, to get their absentee/military ballots in on time.

And finally, I missed something as I was typing--something about 24% of military personnel unwilling to answer a particular question...
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is precisely why we need a conscription....
so our military will be made up of a representative section of our society, not just the dimwitted gung-ho types.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. I'm curious...why do you think these soldiers would be willing...
...to publicly state who they're voting for in November?

Additionally, do you really believe that the troops consist totally of "dimwitted gung-ho types"? What about the 30% of the National Guard that has refused to report for duty when ordered? What about the reports we're hearing from behind the scenes from senior officers to the lowliest private that this war is wrong? What about all of the retired senior officers that have gone on record stating that this war is wrong and that a change in leadership is needed at the top?

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority troops were quite a bit more "gung-ho" when they first entered Iraq...but that's not even close to the case now.

Be careful of making broad sweeping generalizations...they tend to make you look worse than the people you're trying to vilify.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Many of the 1ID are on R and R right now
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 03:07 PM by lebkuchen
Even those who had voted for Bush in 2000 are now realizing, as they stand in the "thick of things," that what Bush had drummed into them is not the reality of what they're seeing in Iraq.

There is no question, Bush will not have the military votes this year as he did in 2000, and perhaps more importantly, military spouses will not be voting for Bush.

Many military overseas voters are voting out of key states, like Florida, which have no state income tax. Bush's losing FL is a huge concern, but his loss is on the horizon. Not even last minute visits by Wolfowitz to the 1ID headquarters last week and Rummy's visit to Iraq can stem the tide.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. If they understand what they're allegedly fighting for, which is "freedom"
according to their Commander-in-Chief, they shouldn't be afraid to state who they're supporting. I'm guessing that a poll doesn't have to reveal their names. And yes, I painted with too broad a brush when I referred to the "gung-ho types." They have seen enough suffering and dying to know that whatever they are doing this for had better be damned good. But what do they know of their mission other than to keep themselves and their buddies alive, or to kill or capture "bad guys" as they are identified?

People who have joined the armed forces voluntarily must somehow rationalize that what they are doing is the right thing. Those who are conscripted are more free to critically examine the big picture.

And I hope your "behind the scenes" reports are true.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. So that more liberals will get killed in combat?
:shrug:
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. No, so that there will be less combat in the first place.
What we have with an all-volunteer army is the next thing to a privatized militia, a hired mercenary force. That is not what I want defending my country. And I believe that if we have a conscripted cross-section of Americans in our armed services, we'll be far less likely to go into these bullshit wars of choice in which we're defending not our country, but some neocon's plan for Empire.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Perhaps if there had been a draft in the '50s and '60s, there would not
have been a Vietnam and Korean Wars.
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I think it could have worked out that way. I believe that to the extent
our armed forces reflect and represent our people, we will do the right things with the military.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. There was. Elvis got drafted.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. if 64% actually thought the country was on the right track
then at least 50% of us would be in the wrong country.

it is so obviously bs its silly.
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budkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. No way...
I call bullshit.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Trust me, those soldiers are scared to speak their minds right now
It is amazing the right-wing pressure that comes top-down in the service.

I remember being stationed overseas in 1988 and casting my ballot for Dukakis via absentee ballot...I was thinking it would be intercepted and I would be sent to Ft. Leavenworth on trumped up charges for 20 years.

Seriously.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I know what you mean
It's a very propagandized right wing society and there is a palpable fear that you will be 'found out' for having the wrong opinion or voting outside of the official party line. I was very hesitant to express my political views or admit that I voted for Clinton when I was in the Navy.
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Rambis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. With a psyche that fragile....
How in the hell can you believe any differently? You have to believe this is good or the entire world falls apart. It is a survival mechanism IMHO.
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Heyo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Are you saying..
...the soldiers' psyches are too "fragile" too make choices about this type of thing?

I am just trying to clarify what your message says.

Heyo
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Rambis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I am saying... and not very well
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 02:51 PM by Rambis
In order to survive mentally you need to buy into it 100%. Can you imagine sitting there with a limb gone or remembering a buddy getting blasted away and realize this war was all a bunch of shit? I couldn't handle it. It is a fine line-
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. They also said that 15% (most likely Kerry supporters) refused to answer.
So change that to:

Bush
Favorable/Unfavorable: 54%/38%

Kerry
Favorable/Unfavorable: 44%/39%

Country
Right Track: 49%/46%

:)
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drmom Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. I heard the same report on the radio, but here in the liberal bay area
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 02:45 PM by drmom
they also added that some huge percentage of the active military and their families are repugs. I can't remember the number, but it was enough to explain the findings in this poll.

It does boggle the mind that those in the military (who tend to be in the lower socioeconomic class) would support a party that absolutely is not looking out for them. What, is it that the repugs let them play with guns? I just don't get it.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. What is it? my opinion, drmom
Republicans imagine themselves as authority figures. Dems imagine themselves as free-spirited, egalitarian figures.

The military is nothing, if not authoritarian. Therefore, military members trend toward associating with the republickers authoritarian figure heads.

Praise be the military types here on DU who, rather than be authoritarian, are egalitarian members of a democratic society.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think the military folks are self censoring
what they put on the ballot may be different. Many did not want to speak on camera and were pressured to shut up, thats what i heard on cnn.
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. Do you call this troop support?
Letters to Stars and Stripes

Draft more fair than stop-loss--Oct. 11, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24832

Undeserving Commander--Oct. 8, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24789

Bush to Blame?--Sept. 27, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24600

Army's 'redheaded stepchild'--Sept. 26, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24584

Toe the line or else—Sept. 11, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24320

Strong leadership?—Sept. 6, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24226

AAFES censorship (of F 9-11)—Aug. 29, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24087

Bush’s behavior on 9/11—Aug. 27, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=24055

Too much Fox? You decide; Civilian leadership failed the troops—Aug 18, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23897


The letters below (What protection? and Response to Rumsfeld) are in response to a letter Rummy wrote to the troops and was published in Stripes on or around June 26, 2004. Rummy’s letter is here:

US TROOPS' SKILL EMANCIPATED IRAQ
(Stripes did not provide an URL)

To the troops:

More than 15 months ago, a global coalition ended the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein and liberated the people of Iraq.

As in all conflicts, this has come at a cost in lives. Some of your comrades made the ultimate sacrifice. For your sacrifices, our country and the president are deeply grateful.

In a free, democratic country we have vigorous debates over important public policy issues--none more heated than a decision to go to war. But this should not distract us from the mission at hand or lessen the magnitude of your accomplishments.

The threat we face must be confronted. And you are doing so exceedingly well. Indeed it has been a historic demonstration of skill and military power.

On Sept. 11, 2002, 3,000 citizens were killed by extremists determined to frighten and intimidate our people and civilized societies. The future danger is that, if the extremists gain the potential, the number of casualties would be far higher. Terrorists are continuing to plot attacks against the American people and against other civilized societies. This is a different kind of enemy and a different kind of world. And we must think and act differently in this new century.

These extremists think nothing of cutting off innocent people's heads to try to intimidate great nations. They have murdered citizens from many countries--South Korea, Japan, Spain, the United Kingdom and others--hoping to strike fear in the hearts of free people.

Theirs is an ideology of oppression and subjugation of women. They seek to create radical systems that impose their views on others. And they will accept no armistice with those who choose free systems.

They see the governments of the Middle East, the United States and our stalwart allies as targets.

Consider the background. In the span of 20 years, Saddam's Iraq invaded two neighbors, Iran and Kuwait, and launched ballistic missiles at two more. He employed poison gas against soldiers in Iran and against kurdish villages in his own country.

The United Nations and the U.S. Congress shared the view that Saddam's regime was a threat to the region and the world. Indeed, in 1998, our Congress passed a resolution calling for the removal of the regime. And over the years the U.N. passed 17 resolutions condeming Saddam's regime and calling on him to tell the U.N. about his weapions programs. He ignored every one.

Information gathered since the defeat of Saddam's regime last year confirms that his last declaration to the United Nations about his weapons programs was falsified. The U.N. resolutions had called for "serious consequences" should Saddam not comply. He did not.

The president issued a final ultimatum to Saddam to reliquish power to avoid war. Saddam chose war instead.

By your skill and courage, you have put a brutal dictator in the dock to be tried by the Iraqi people and restored freedom to 25 million people. By helping to repair infrastructure, rebuild schools, encourage democratic institutions and deliver educational and medical supplies, you have shown America's true character and given Iraq a chance at a new start.

But most importantly, your fight--and ultimate victory--against the forces of terror and extremism in Iraq and the Middle East will have made America safer and more secure.

You are accomplishing something noble and historic--and future generations of Americans will remember and thank you for it.


What protection?—Aug. 2, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23299&archive=true

Response to Rumsfeld—Aug. 20, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23942



Too much FOX news—Aug. 6, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23371&archive=true

Don’t follow leaders blindly; Kerry’s war actions—Aug. 5, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23370&archive=true

Letter was chilling; Christ’s words lost—July 30, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23296&archive=true

Bush leadership weak—July 29, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23295&archive=true

Don’t blame Clinton—July 27, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23293&archive=true



Bush vs. military standards; Gay marriage—get over it—July 24, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=23290&archive=true

Conservatives are like sheep—July 15, 2004
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22980&archive=true

Bush actions parallel enemies—June 30, 2004
http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22650&archive=true

Can FOX News be trusted?—June 18, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22420&archive=true

Impeach Bush—June 11, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22413&archive=true

Troops not forgotten—June 7, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22240&archive=true

Lies and failures—May 23, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22017&archive=true

‘Year in hell’ long enough; Treat GIs like heroes—May 20, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=22003&archive=true

Rumsfeld should resign—May 11, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21889&archive=true

Iraq resembles Vietnam; Distortion and deception; Abuse of prisoners—May 9, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21779&archive=true

Bush fought pay restoration—May 3, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21768&archive=true

We need them back; Get out and vote; Enough is Enough—April 18, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21380&archive=true


Thanks, Secretary Rumsfeld; Supports troops, not mission; Let them come home—April13, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=21375&archive=true

Dr. Laura and the Military/Spend more for protection—March 26, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=20988&archive=true

A little selective amnesia; Spend more for protection—March 25, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=20987&archive=true

Must demand better—March 7, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=20639&archive=true

Canceled R and R; Vietnam, Iraq similar—Feb. 8, 2004
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=20107&archive=true

Bush visit disrupted dining--Dec. 5, 2003
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18886&archive=true

Take Limbaugh off AFN; Mission real national tragedy—Nov. 28, 2003
http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18798&archive=true

Will Limbaugh change?; Remove Limbaugh show—Nov. 27, 2003
http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18797&archive=true

Will be glad to leave Army; Conditions deplete Guard
http://estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18992&archive=true
Above URL no longer works; letters are here:

Dec. 1, 2003

Will be glad to leave Army

I’m assigned to the Chemical Reconnaissance Platoon, 89th Chemical Company, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment based out of Al-Asad Airfield, Iraq. Let me tell our story to all the soldiers having a great time here.

My soldiers and I were initially assigned to 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment when we entered Iraq in April. We moved from troop to troop nine times in four months, never really having a home. My soldiers and I have driven more than 13,000 miles in Iraq from Dogwood, south of Baghdad, to Tikrit in the north.

Every time I turn around I have a new chain of command who I must “get along with.” My soldiers and I are physically and mentally worn out, yet we continue to soldier on as professionals every day. We’ve been shot at, hit with rocket-propelled grenades, run in front of exploding improvised explosive devices, and run over unexploded land mines. Yet we continue to soldier on without complaining or running our mouths. Our living conditions have ranged from good to inhuman. It depends on when and where we are assigned. The summer was the worst, as temperatures hovered in the mid-130s at Ramadi and Fallujah. Yet we continue to soldier on.

We’re currently assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division Artillery and further operational control to the 21st Chemical Company for ammunition supply point assessment and reduction. I have no doubt that when the 82nd is finished with us, we’ll be passed on to someone else.

Oh, did I mention that we’ve not done chemical recon since coming here? We’re used as site security, convoy security, a quick reaction force, and escorts for both civilians and military personnel. My soldiers and I would love to take rest and recuperation leave, but alas, I don’t think we’ll be chosen.

When all of my soldiers and I get home safely next April or May, I’ll actually be glad to leave an Army that I once loved. I hope readers can see the smile on my face while I’m typing this and saying that I hope all soldiers here, regardless of branch, make it home safely.

Staff Sgt. Marc S. Jacobson
Al-Asad Airfield, Iraq


Conditions deplete Guard

This is to all those who say that guardsmen and reservists in Iraq and Kuwait need to suck it up and drive on or get out: We will suck it up and drive on, and we will get out.

I was in Kuwait in Desert Storm as a National Guardsman. When we returned, there was a mass exodus from the units. That’s why units have to have fillers this time. We were only here for five months the last time. We did our job and left.

The longer we’re here, the more we get a “don’t care” attitude. To think that the regular Army doesn’t need the Guard is crazy.

Sgt. Merlin Nichols
Camp Navistar, Kuwait


Real national tragedy
Nov. 24, 2003
http://estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18896
URL no longer works. Letter here:

Stars and Stripes’ front page on Nov. 3 published the headline, “Deadly day in Iraq.” The caption under the front-page photo of the downed CH-47 Chinook helicopter included a statement by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. He called the deadly downing of the Chinook “a national tragedy.”

The downed helicopter with its killed and injured U.S. military personnel was not a national tragedy. It was a needless and terrible loss of our brave soldiers. In my opinion, the real national tragedy is George W. Bush. Why? He didn’t get elected fair and square, and his politics are making a mockery of America. Further, I feel he took us to war over the objections of many Americans under false pretenses. President Bush used weapons of mass destruction as his reason when his real, diehard reason was to take control of Iraqi oil for himself, his father, and his cronies – some of whom have personal involvement/interest in oil and oil support companies.

I’m also of the opinion that President Bush’s burning desire to control and capitalize on Iraqi oil has alienated many countries and allies and further infuriated the Muslim world with more hate for America. No wonder we’re going it almost alone in Iraq and losing good soldiers every day.

It is again my opinion that President Bush has traded American blood for Iraqi oil. Now he and Secretary Rumsfeld have the proverbial “tiger by the tail” and don’t begin to know how to turn it loose.

In my opinion, the real story on this whole sordid mess that President Bush has gotten America into can be found in Gore Vidal’s book, “Dreaming War: Blood For Oil and the Cheney-Bush Junta.” I urge every registered military voter, as well as those personnel who are not registered voters, to read it.

Phil Williamson II
Sicily


‘Hero’ image a myth
Nov. 19, 2003
http://estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18795
URL no longer works. Letter below:

The letter “Iraqis must help themselves” (Nov. 12) suggested that countries critical of the coalition forces’ liberation of Iraq are in some way indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

The writer was quick to label such critics as being guilty of providing weapons and training to Iraq. This may indeed be the case. However, would the writer be so keen to put America on the chopping block? After all, it was the Reagan and first Bush administrations that provided Osama bin Laden with the necessary training with which to form al-Qaida and further the necessary funds with which to carry out this training. Is America therefore indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Afghans, not to mention the 3,000 killed on Sept. 11, 2001?

Please cease all of this sentimental, patriotic claptrap that sees America painted as, once again, the conquering hero.

Clementine Ford
Naha, Okinawa, Japan


Money can't fix Iraq
Nov. 17, 2003
http://estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18689
URL no longer works. Letter below:

Why do we allow ourselves to be brainwashed into thinking that money will eventually buy our way out of Iraq. The only people who believe that philosophy are the ones responsible for putting us there.

I keep reading in the newspapers that “we will not be intimidated,” “more and more Iraqis are supporting our programs” and that “we will win this war.” Has anyone noticed that this little war of ours is starting to look like the one between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Their little conflict has been in the news forever and shows no signs of stopping. I once asked a Middle Eastern person how long the conflict between the Jews and Arabs would continue. He replied: “Until the last Jew has disappeared.”

The Iraqis are using the same terror tactics as the Palestinians and will be able to prolong this conflict for as long as they wish. As with the Palestinian-Israeli war, too many of the Iraqis see us as invaders and occupiers and will continue to fight as long as we are on their land. They see the United States as an Israeli ally and, consequently, their enemy.

In the Middle East, the nation of Islam is stronger than an allegiance to any nation. What is seen as an enemy to one is an enemy to all. King Richard the Lion-Hearted ran into the same problems in the 1100s. Current headlines read: “Attacks are increasing, but we are going to use more power.” We have all the groundwork for a long conflict in Iraq.

It is difficult for Americans to believe the Iraqis would prefer to be led by someone like Saddam Hussein rather than a liberator from the West. But many Iraqis view the American troops as infidels. Better to be led by a devil you know than by an infidel — a nonbeliever.

In response, our leaders are providing a wonderful example of “brute force” politics. We are determined to make our present Iraqi policy work, no matter the cost. Somehow, it has become un-American to criticize current foreign policy. It is taken as a slam against our brave troops, who are trying to implement orders while dodging bombs and bullets.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Our forces are dedicated, loyal and committed to providing a better life for the Iraqi people. But we cannot — and should not — cram our way of life down their throats.

Even worse, while trying to teach the Iraqis how to institute a democratic way of life, we are not willing to let American citizens exercise their democratic right of dissension.

However, I think it is more un-American to sit quietly by and let our government drag us into one quagmire after another, especially when we find out, too late, that the whole policy was based on lies and deception. I think it is un-American to sit idly by and watch our young troops getting killed day after day, to see billions of dollars going to help foreign cities, and to put up with trusted leaders who dance around the truth and wrap the American flag around their misbegotten causes.

We have too many citizens who need health care, food, homes, education, schools and jobs. Let’s fight our own war on poverty and take care of the United States first. Winston Churchill once said: “Americans will always do the right thing … after they’ve exhausted all the alternatives.” Well, it is time to do the right thing for America — not next week or next year, but now. We also had a president who said: “You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all the time.” It is time for some of us to stand up and say, “Enough is enough.” My representatives in Congress know how I feel.

Clifton J. Jester
Kadena Air Base, Okinawa


Bush not in Iraq
July 13, 2003
http://estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=16637
URL obsolete. Letter here:

It was a no-brainer that President Bush’s reaction to the attacks on our troops in Iraq was “bring them on.” He’s not there. He’s not feeling the day-to-day heat and the stress of being away from home and getting shot at and maybe killed. Bush sure is a tough guy. So tough, in fact, that he was in the National Guard during the Vietnam War flying over Texas, and during part of that time was absent without leave. Nobody seems to remember that. People should do some research. So let’s all rally around Bush and support the Iraqis to “bring them on.” And let’s keep our troops in a dangerous position while our government tries to figure out what its next move will be.

Bush’s daughters are old enough to join the military, right? Why not send them to a recruiting station and “bring them on”? Oh, I forgot. Daddy has money and is running the United States.

And what about the United States’ weapons of mass destruction? Out of every country in the world that has weapons of mass destruction, the United States is the only country that has used them. What if the world wakes up and bands together and comes on over and tries to disarm the United States? What if they want to go door-to-door and take our own personnel weapons?

Saddam Hussein is gone, and for that the world is a better place, even though we haven’t found him or Osama bin Laden yet. What happened to all of that American money that was found over there? While our own government cuts money from such things as education and Social Security to fund the war, the money that was found is doing what? Is our government turning around and putting it right back into Iraq? I don’t know. It hasn’t said. It’s like the American ammunition that was found during the first few days of the war. It was probably left over from when we armed Saddam to fight Iran. Did readers not know that?

One last question: How long are we going to sit around and let our friends, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, aunts and uncles stay in Iraq? What is the magic number of dead American troops that has to be reached before Bush gets tired of telling Iraqis to “bring it on”?

Jason Mayfield
Hanau, Germany

Thanksgiving visit--Nov. 7, 2003
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=18888&archive=true

Stars and Stripes letters, Aug. 31 – Sept. 6, 2003
http://estripes.com/article.asp?section=125&article=17402
URL obsolete. Letters here:

August 31

Yearning for substance

As a soldier deployed in Baghdad, I look forward to the three- and four-day-old copies of Stars and Stripes that my unit gets for news and current events. Being detached from modern news mediums is part of the job, and I expect Stripes to be abreast of the world’s happenings.

In the Aug. 11 issue there were multiple articles on serious international issues in Liberia, Jakarta, Iraq and on the Israelis and Palestinians. But I was more than disappointed to see that the most important thing to Stripes wasn’t these issues. It was the story “Air Force back on track for fitness test” (Aug. 11). It was about the Air Force’s new physical training program.

Does anyone really care so much about the Air Force getting a new PT program that it should overshadow world events, including American soldiers in combat? Since Stripes caters to servicemembers, does Stripes really think they want to read about airmen running laps or current events shaping the world around them?

Most soldiers tolerate Stripes because it’s the only media we can get a hold of. But I think Stripes’ values need to be reevaluated. Deployed soldiers yearn for substance in Stripes. Instead, it’s filled with human interest nonsense that doesn’t affect anybody except apparently the Air Force.

So when Stripes’ editors get together and decide what to print and where to place it, they should please keep in mind the readers who want newsworthy articles instead of pages filled with airmen on treadmills.

Spc. David C. Ratliffe
Baghdad, Iraq


Reserve your criticism

On behalf of all Reserve and National Guard soldiers and airmen serving on hardship tours around the globe, I’d like to thank the writer of the letter “Don’t like it? Don’t re-enlist” (Aug. 13) for sharing his low opinion of us and his disdain for our individual concerns. His extemporaneous wit and well-placed sarcasm, depicting our civilian lives, families and careers as nothing more than “frat parties” and “Mr. Bean’s sociology midterm exam” really showed us the error of our ways.

To answer the writer’s questions: Yes, we all signed up for military service because we thought the money was good. From my own personal experience, the military is a great source of supplemental income to my part-time civilian job shoveling animal excrement at the local zoo. It really helps when it comes time to pony up my share when our frat hosts another kegger.

After having served or watched colleagues leave to serve in Bosnia, Kosovo, Haiti, East Timor, Somalia, Desert Shield/Desert Storm and in other contingencies, it perplexes me that we were all so shocked to be asked to serve in Afghanistan and Iraq, too. I guess we should have taken the past 15 years of conflicts as a hint that another round of deployments might be around the corner. I can’t explain how we were all so naïve as to believe that this time the Pentagon would pardon us from the obligation we agreed to fulfill.

I’d also like to express the shame and guilt we all now feel for placing our families in this situation. Since I feel my soldiers should share the same self-control and foresight as the writer, I’ve ordered all my married soldiers to file for divorce when they return home. This will allow their spouses to remarry people outside the military who can better provide for their families, lest we get deployed again. I’ve also ordered all of my married and unmarried soldiers to lead lives of celibacy from this day forward to ensure that they will not again place a dependant in a situation in which they don’t have at least some control.

I hope these ideas catch on in other units and in our sister services so that in the near future the military will appear to the casual observer as nothing more than a bunch of nuns and monks running around with assault rifles and machine guns.

I’d like to thank the writer again for so aptly illustrating how meaningless our civilian lives really are. His opinion has been heard! From the writer’s position in Misawa Air Base, Japan, where he’s allowed to wear civilian clothes, enjoy running water, shop at the local post exchange/base exchange, take in a ball game or get a beer with his buddies and sleep comfortably in his own bed at night, he of all people has earned the right to criticize.

1st Lt. Charles Unger
Camp Speicher, Iraq


September 3

Not complaining

This is in response to the letter “Quit sniveling” (Aug. 12). I’m a 23-year veteran of the active duty Army and National Guard. I’ve been deployed to Bosnia and places I wish to forget. I agree with the letter writer that as noncommissioned officers we need to stop complaining and whining. We need to act like leaders.

I’m stationed in northern Iraq. The writer is missing out on all the fun here. Too bad he’s at Camp Doha, Kuwait. Where else in the world can one sleep on dirt or wooden floors and watch insects crawl across the floors, tent mates and ourselves? But I’m not stating a grievance.

Air conditioning? Not around here. We have electric fans that move hot air around when the power is on. We’ve gone through six generators. It’s something about the dust and heat that’s caused them to stop working. Again, I’m not criticizing.

I spend quality time with my troops. We stand in line to eat, shower, use the latrine and shop at the post exchange. I wouldn’t miss it for the world. And if we don’t feel like eating in the dining facility, we can go over to Burger King. Oh, I forgot. We don’t have a Burger King. My mistake. But we do have sun-baked Meals, Ready to Eat. Oh, what a treat. But I’m not complaining.

I look after the morale of my troops. I make sure they call home when the phone is working or e-mail loved ones when the system is working. Both the telephone and e-mail are great devices when they work properly. I’m not whining either.

The local population entertains us with nightly mortar attacks, sniping and ambushes. They go through a lot of trouble to do that. But I’m not complaining.

The mail? Well, let’s not beat a dead horse. Once more, I’m not grumbling.

Live like a civilized human being? The thought never entered my mind. We have it so great here in Iraq that I feel bad for the letter writer. And to think we get paid to do this. But I’m not finding fault.

Did I mention the lovely aroma of burning waste? It makes my eyes water to think about it. The Korean rice fields have nothing over it. Again, I’m not being a grouch.

As I said, we NCOs need to support our chain of command by holding them accountable to correctly find out when redeployment is going to happen, inform the troops and then make it happen. We NCOs are the backbone of the Army, and this backbone is hot, sweaty and worn out. But once more, I’m not complaining, criticizing, expressing dissatisfaction, finding fault, or bellyaching at all.

Sgt. John Epperson
Camp Anaconda, Iraq
Telephones

I’d like everyone to know about AT&T and the military. I’m currently assigned to the 253rd Transportation Company from Cape May, N.J., that’s serving in Iraq. While in Mosul I was able to use the telephones to call my family in the United States. Now AT&T has removed those phones and put in a new tent with phones. But these phones have connection fees. With a 100-minute phone card I’m only able to make a six-minute call. We don’t make a lot of money and shouldn’t have to worry about phone fees.

AT&T doesn’t help soldiers. Instead, it’s running a business as usual. Unfortunately, we don’t have a choice of which phone company we can use.

We’re doing an important job here by keeping our freedom and fighting for the greatest country in the world. But we don’t have good sources of communication when we want to call our loved ones.

Spc. Orlando Miranda
Iraq


Retention

I’d like to comment on the letter “One-year deployment too long” (Aug. 5). The writer had the courage to write what the majority of us are feeling here in Iraq. He is absolutely correct about retention. When my contract expires, I’m gone. I know I don’t plan to let the Army take another year of my life. Six months can be forgotten, but a year will never be forgiven.

I want the writer to know that he indeed feels the true pulse of the troops. I appreciate the fact that someone does. I can only hope that he’s not punished for telling it like it really is.

2nd Lt. Nicholas Bradford
Iraq


We're prisoners

I’ve been in the National Guard since 1977. This is my first deployment. I always thought that when we were activated we became regular Army — an “Army of one.” I received mobilization orders on Feb. 10. These are the only orders I’ve been allowed to see. I know we have orders to be in country because one of my soldiers had to get medical help back at Camp Arifjan and he was given a copy of his orders. I’ve asked my commander and first sergeant about these orders and have been denied. I’ve had several other problems with them and have been denied to see my command sergeant major and inspector general.

My men ask me for guidance and I’m limited because my senior leadership has failed me and my men. Here at Tallil Air Base in Iraq, the National Guard units are run by politics, just like back home. The Army has rules to keep politics out. But the Army of one doesn’t apply to the National Guard.

I want to go home. My wife sent a letter to our governor back home, and I have a letter in response. The response says that there’s no stop loss. Yet when my men’s expiration, term of service is up, they’re not allowed to leave.

We’re prisoners here. I haven’t been allowed even one day off since I’ve been deployed. All we want is a date — something to look forward to. My wife also wrote to senators and even to President Bush. None of these people seem to care about our fate.

Sgt. 1st Class Michael Cranfill
Tallil Air Base, Iraq
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Excellent post...thanks for compiling all of this information!
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's a work in progress.
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 03:12 PM by lebkuchen
The military does not like Bush. The Pentagon hates him.
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hey, indoctrination works!
It's sickening, but not surprising. When they have it (wrongly) drilled into their heads from the time they join up that the democrats are evil and want to kill the military, pretty soon most of them will fall in line like obedient little pups.

Thank goodness for the few who still think for themselves.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. The number of the military "who still think for themselves" is growing...
...by leaps and bounds for every additional day that we stay in Iraq and Afghanistan. Spend a tour or two under those conditions, and I bet you would know exactly what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to be "indoctrinated" in military schools, but ut's quite another to see the war in Iraq as it really exists.

These guys aren't dumb...they see what's going on.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. 4 problems: team cohesiveness, CIC support, education, job boredom
I grew up in a military household; I'm married to a Vet, two of my sisters married active duties, both of my brothers are active duty, one sister (one of the married ones) was active duty until she got pregnant and medicalled out. (One of them had to in case they both were called up at the same time; else, they would have had to have given up custody.)

There are good reasons the military goes to the neo-cons; they don't make sense, but they are legitimate reasons. The first is team cohesiveness. In a lot of situations, it's considered "better" for a unit to all have the same opinion. Thus, especially in controlled access areas, like Diego Garcia and Basic/AIT, military personnel may not have access to multiple opinions, especially if the brass doesn't want them to. (This was a problem on DG for years because the commander was a strict Baptist who didn't allow anything with a rating greater than PG on the island. He was also censorious of other materials... DG was rightly considered a hellhole for a long time...) So those who have conflicting opinions will keep them to themselves out of the best interest of the team (and to protect themselves.)

The second is a very nuanced issue: CIC support. You're not allowed to criticize the CIC officially; it's a fine line between talking for yourself and talking as a member of the armed services and a lot of the brass can be rather ignorant about that line. They take the line "My CIC, right or wrong" and don't allow dissent. The military is not a republic and not democratic. A lot of brass can be rather ignorant about a lot of things... like prayers in formation, required chapel, and similar, but that's for another day....

The third is also a hard one to remedy: education. Most of those enlisting have only a high school diploma. Some have a year of Community College. Very few of those who enlist have a 4 year degree. Most are young - 18-22; most come from economically depressed backgrounds where the military is the ONLY way out of poverty. If you can't play ____ball well enough to get a scholarship, if your grades are only okay, if you never had a chance to even think about college, then the Armed Forces are the escape from the McJobs now that the good paying manufacturing work has evaporated. In general, these are not kids used to introspection. They're not stupid in general, but they do tend to be rather ignorant of the real world. They go from a protected space of being an adolescent to the protected space of being in the military. Few of them have much real world experience. (And the military is NOT the real world.)

And then there's job boredom. Military personnel are trained to do a job. Practicing that job gets dull.... ask any firefighter that turns pyro. It's the same concept. Personnel get tired of range practice, drill and working on the same thing day in and day out. Going to war may not be a great option, but for people trained to do a job - and trained to enjoy it - not being allowed to do so is painful. There are a lot of adrenalin junkies in the forces, sad to say. If they were before or not is debatable.

However, a draft or required service would not cure these problems. We have to change out the brass, remediate this culture of total control, educate everyone, and work on making the jobs interesting all of the time. (That last is not possible....)

Anecdotally, I'm not sure if the numbers are correct - my Marine family is pretty skeptical of * and the war, as are their friends. Once they realized that the increase in pay was combat pay, not a raise, they turned away from *. Money will get them every time... if we Dems want a following in the armed forces, we MUST insist on *annual* COLA raises, change out the contract system (our personnel are sick of crappy, expensive tools bought on a no-bid contract when they could spend half the money by having the Snap-on truck come out....) and get rid of the privatization "forces." (Contracted chow halls were the worst idea ANYONE ever came up with.... ) They don't want new heavy equipment every year as much as they want functional equipment all of the time. (My Air Force brother hates the B-2/F-2, for instance.)

If we reform the Pentagon so that the # 1 line item is not equipment but salaries and benefits, we will get their loyalty. The Air Force is far more liberal than the other three (as is the Coast Guard) and their #1 line item is salaries and bennies. If they need more money for operations, they go back to Congress. (Okay, the system can't work indefinitely that way, but....)

Pcat


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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Thank you for this post; lots of good information, and I think
more reasons why a drafted military is the answer. It shouldn't be about money, but about service. If all young men are required to do their basic 2 years of service, at very low pay, they can figure out within that time if military life is going to be for them. Upon re-enlistment they could be well paid with good benefits and security, but the first-term draftees would supply most of the horsepower (no need for contracted chow halls.) Most of those would get out after their 2-year hitch, but with a much better idea of what to do with their lives than the average 20-year-olds have today.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. see post 30
I addressed some of your issues, but it was easier to reply once to both.

Pcat
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Good read. politicat, thanks, that's the military I was taught about...
If part of the problem is that the members in the military have never experienced real life, them maybe members should have to be at least 23 years or older before being enlisted?

While national duty is an interesting idea, the fact of the matter is that we are better off without a huge standing army, or any large organized force, that could be used for nefarious means by any ruler, or politician.

Why, had not the military been capable of invading Iraq, they never would have, eh?.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. *shrugs* Rather than a large standing army, a large force of
functionaries might work. For one, we need to bring the Nat. Guard back to its intended purpose: to defend the homeland and take care of internal issues. National Guard IS the Department of Homeland Security. They are supposed to deal with natural disasters, internal issues and repel invaders. (If China decided to get busy, we'd be bent over a barrel. We have next to no one here at home.)

We also need the equivalent of a CCC to go into the forests and clear out all of the dead brush manually so we don't end up with forest fires (not the "Healthy Forests" crap... what I'm talking about is basically raking leaves and making compost...) and to police our more fragile ecosystems for invasive weeds; that would be a good use for the national service groups. We need a WPA to build low income housing, to repair the schools and roads... It's time to bring back alphabet soup.

I don't mind the idea of a national service plan, but automatically inducting everyone into a branch of the Armed Forces is not the way to go about it. And as far as low pay for those first two years as an Armed Forces-National Service "crew member".... what do you think a PFC or a specialist gets? The pay is crap. The difference is the benefits and the housing. But we can't set up a system that creates a "special group" in the military; the whole point of the indoctrination in basic is to make members part of a team because the team is only as strong as its weakest member. If we set up a special group of national service personnel, that's going to cause all sorts of problems. Ask a National Guard member who has been on active duty about the problems s/he's experienced by being a National Guard member... FANGer is practically a polite term (F*cking Air National Guard); they get the worst of materiel, the worst assignments, the least training and the lowest pay. That's the two level system we have. Add in a third, even lower level? Nooo.... bad juju.

Pcat


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FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. Change the channel ... Better yet, turn off the television.
I promise, you'll feel better.
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