HEY-Didn't Laura Bush have to have fertility treatments to conceive?

[Carni]

I watched an MSNBC biography about Laura Bush about two weeks ago
and unless I imagined this...I seem to recall them saying they were having a hard time having kids and that they sought medical help?

She had twins--so this AM it dawns on me...what type of "medical help" did she have?

I don't know much about how this is done, but aren't eggs ("lives" bla bla bla) sometimes "killed" in the process of some fertility treatments?

This wouldn't jive with bush's beliefs about stem cell research would it?

I just thought I would bring this up and see if anyone knows anything or can find anything on this topic!

I may have misconstrued what I heard on the biography but I figured it wouldn't hurt to search around!

ON EDIT: The above about "Eggs/lives" being killed is sarcasm on my part--I personally don't hold that belief, just parroting what I have heard from the freeper types!

[skippysmom]

1. I believe you're right

Just finished Kitty Kelley and she referred to it. They were fairly "old" (mid-late 30s) when they had kids.

[Carni]

19. Kitty Kelly book page 425/end of second paragraph

"Finally Laura consulted a fertility specialist in Dallas, and in 1981 she became pregnant with twins"

Now how the hell would we find out what her treatments entailed? :(

[roseBudd]

23. And fraternal twins would suggest implanted embryos

How many were discarded or did not take?

[Carni]

29. That's what I was wondering

I don't know how it could be proved, or unearthed.

Where has the chimp stood on discarded eggs from fertility treatments?

[SoCalDem]

71. Until recently, they implanted MANY embryos..sometimes as many as 7 or 8

so ...since only 2 "took", Laura must have "aborted" the others :)

[elehhhhna]

21. A: Yes, she had sex w/man who was sober & thus could do "hard work"

[Eurobabe]

57. OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH that's gonna leave a mark.

[Radio-Active]

2. good point...

I hope someone can help with this..

If so, several poor embryos have been killed on her behalf.

[vetwife]

13. She said on one interview that they had planned on adopting and

then she got pregnant. I think she was on a fertility plan.

[Catfight]

3. Yes, the eggs that don't get used are thrown away, which could be

used for stem cell research instead, but the Bushies would rather throw them away. Nothing new by the way about a hypocritical christian.

[troublemaker]

6. Mass-murderer, by his own standards

[RoyalWickedness]

4. Not to mention that any type of fertility treatment

is "interfering with God's will." If God had meant her to reproduce, she would have had them without any "help." If he didn't, maybe there was a good reason. God works in mysterious ways, you know.

[TexasSissy]

5. I think she got pregnant almost immediately after their marriage.

So close that I thought they might have "had" to get married.

[RafterMan]

8. When were they married?

"Before twins Jenna and Barbara were born on Nov. 25, 1981, fertility experts told the Bushes "that it was highly unlikely that Laura would ever become pregnant. The news plunged her into a state of depression; Laura became so unhappy that she avoided walking down the baby aisle of the supermarket.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A32246-2002Oct28¬Found=true

[Carni]

16. November 5th 1977

Nov. 5, 1977 Marries Laura Welch,
a former teacher and librarian, after dating for three months. ...


www.cbsnews.com/elements/2004/07/ 12/in_depth_politics/timeline628875_0_main.shtml

[maveric]

61. The twins were born in 1982, I believe.

So there was no "shotgun" involved there.

[MsTryska]

40. What reason does a childless woman

have to be walking down the baby aisle in the grocery store anyway?


granted some stores keep the feminine hygeine products there too.

[IdaBriggs]

43. Grocery stores don't always keep "just baby stuff" in that aisle.

I've cried my share of tears in those aisles, too. :( Trust me on this one -- she was being normal. :(

[MsTryska]

50. Oh I'm sorry to hear that.....

and sorry your going through an emotional situation too. I had no idea there was other stuff int he baby aisles. must be how my stores are designed down here.

[Carni]

12. Maybe I confused this--I know that Bush 1 and the Quaker Oats man

Were pregnant with George immediately -- maybe I have confused this but I will try to track this down.

[ellie]

22. Quaker Oats man!

Hilarious!

[Raster]

24. that would be the Quaker Oats man with the beautiful mind...

[mindfulNJ]

44. hahahahahaha

"Quaker Oats Man! :7

[jmm]

55. Maybe you have them confused with the Regans

Barbara and George were married in Jan of 1945 and George was born in July 1946.

[Vickers]

62. "and the Quaker Oats man"

Aw man!

:spank:

[myrna minx]

64. Quaker Oats man...

Coca Cola burns when it is launched out the nose. Damn...that's funny!

[Bridget Burke]

15. They married in 1977; twins were born in 1981.

It was a difficult pregnancy. (Her mother had lost several babies, leaving Laura an only child.)

Was Barbara Bush supportive of her daughter-in-law--understanding that Laura would not be able to keep popping them out until she produced a male heir? Well, I've got little patience with Laura, but I feel a bit of compassion about her having the original Mother-In-Law from Hell.

(By the way, Laura quit her "career" immediately upon marriage.)

[IdaBriggs]

7. No, eggs are NOT "killed" during infertility treatments.

Women are given drugs to enhance egg production. Eggs are harvested. Fertilization rates are considered good at 60-70%. If an embryo fertilizes within the first 24 hours, yeah! They are then monitored for three to five days (depending on the clinic) before being transferred. Extras are "frozen" for future attempts. Fresh embryos have a success rate of 50-70% (again, depending on the clinic), while frozen averages about 35%. The big advantage to going for a five day transfer is the decreasing risk of high range multiple births.

At no point does ANYONE involved in the process INTENTIONALLY KILL ANY EMBRYO. Any other questions?

[Carni]

14. I was being SARCASTIC

Speaking in Right winger type jargon--I don't think anything is "killed" but the wingers use that as a talking point

I just think that given bushit's ideology that if he and the Mrs had fertility treatments he's a damned hypocrite.

[IdaBriggs]

28. I once sat at a table where someone tried to tell me...

...that a child conceived via IVF would have "No Soul" because God only puts souls in children who are conceived "penis in vagina" style. The person in question was a friend of my father's, and to his credit, my father didn't agree. Thank you for identifying your post as sarcasm. This wound is still raw for me, and I apologize if my reply was rude due to my sensitivity about it.

[Carni]

30. No problem!

Trust me it was sarcasm!

And good God regarding your father's friend's blatherings!

That's a hell of a theory he has there (NOT! LOL)

[IdaBriggs]

34. It was definitely a very surreal moment! <smile> nt

[Lefta Dissenter]

35. that certainly explains

the twins, now doesn't it?

[Radio-Active]

25. aren't they "killed" eventually?

I mean, years later, after a successful pregnancy and everything.

[IdaBriggs]

31. It depends.

That sounds like I'm hedging, but I'm not. Sometimes people ask that their "extra" embryos get destroyed if they are uncomfortable with the idea of someone else raising their genetic offspring; sometimes the family keeps trying until they achieve a successful pregnancy even when they know the chances are slim. And sometimes, the "owners" of the embryos just can't make up their mind, so they keep paying the fees for them to be in the freezer until they hit the "freezer burn / won't implant" stage just because making a final decision is so painful. Does that answer your question?

[Carni]

37. What is the rationale currently for throwing them out

Instead of using them for stem cell research?

I don't understand what the RW thinking is about not using these.

[IdaBriggs]

47. I believe its an "experiment with human tissue" issue, but

I'm guessing. I am in the "whatever the owners of the frozen embryos decide is okay with me" camp because I know these are NOT easy decisions, and I trust each family to make the ones that are best for them.

[Radio-Active]

39. I understand, and I read your other post..

Your post here makes sense, because you stated they weren't killed "during fertility treatments". But they are sometimes destroyed AFTER fertility treatments (or allowed to "expire").

[IdaBriggs]

46. Yes.

If you stop trying to get pregnant either because you've succeeded and don't want anymore children, or because you can't take it anymore due to finances, or physical/emotional limitations (more common than you would believe), then you have to make a decision about what to do with the "leftovers". Your options are:

1) Keep paying for storage until they are useless.
2) Have them destroyed (very difficult for most people).
or
3) Donate to someone else (again, emotionally difficult).

There used to be an option 4 -- donate for scientific research -- which would alleviate the question of other genetic relatives, and give people a "greater good" type of feeling, but Bush no longer allows that, so these three are the only options.

[Carni]

51. Thanks! That was what I was after!

So Bush actually eliminated option number four...I didn't know that.

It's not exactly spelled out by our wonderful media.

[DrWeird]

60. Yes.

That's the real issue in this debate, not stem cell research.

That is, should a few cells sitting in a petri dish be donated to science or just thrown in the trash?

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. And what happens to the unused, frozen embryos?

[IdaBriggs]

32. It depends.

That sounds like I'm hedging, but I'm not. Sometimes people ask that their "extra" embryos get destroyed if they are uncomfortable with the idea of someone else raising their genetic offspring; sometimes the family keeps trying until they achieve a successful pregnancy even when they know the chances are slim. And sometimes, the "owners" of the embryos just can't make up their mind, so they keep paying the fees for them to be in the freezer until they hit the "freezer burn / won't implant" stage just because making a final decision is so painful. Does that answer your question

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. You sound like you know whereof you speak -- thanks for the info.

[TexasSissy]

45. In vitro fertlization results in fertilized embryos being trashed.

Is that different from infertility treatments?

[IdaBriggs]

49. Please see my other post --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1050244 for a better explanation. The question of what to do with "leftover" embryos from infertility treatments is an emotionally charged one for many people, and I fear I'm getting repetitive! :)

[TexasSissy]

66. So.....it seems they ARE trashed, or sold for research?

That was my question - whether in vitro fertilization is the same thing as infertility treatments. So you are saying they are?

I know what's done with fert. eggs from in vitro, so all I was asking if infertility treatments were a different procedure or what.

I am not offering an opinion (nor do I have one) on what SHOULD be done about the unused fert. embryos. I'm just very clear about what IS done with them.

[IdaBriggs]

68. IVF is one method of infertility treatments.

But just to clarify, when people were allowed to donate unused frozen embryos for science, it was always A DONATION. They were never (to my knowledge) EVER sold. I put a clearer answer in #46 (copied here, because this topic is getting LONG!):

If you stop trying to get pregnant either because you've succeeded and don't want anymore children, or because you can't take it anymore due to finances, or physical/emotional limitations (more common than you would believe), then you have to make a decision about what to do with the "leftovers". Your options are:

1) Keep paying for storage until they are useless.
2) Have them destroyed (very difficult for most people).
or
3) Donate to someone else (again, emotionally difficult).

There used to be an option 4 -- donate for scientific research -- which would alleviate the question of other genetic relatives, and give people a "greater good" type of feeling, but Bush no longer allows that, so these three are the only options.

[TexasSissy]

69. Ohhhhh. Got it!

[Virginian]

9. I heard that on another board

I was on Vote.com, looking at the discussions about 3 years ago and read about it there. The poster, from Texas, said that it was known when Bush ran for Governor, but it was hushed up because of the potential of losing votes from the fundies.

[endnote]

10. Well you saw the results... Two pinhead daughters...

[SW FL Dem]

11. It depends on the type of fertility treatment

Some treatments just involve medications to stimulate ovulation and conception. Other treatments involve removing eggs from the ovary (in-vitro and others). Only the more invasive treatments actually affect the eggs. The eggs are harvested, fertilized and then implanted a few at a time into the mother. Some eggs don't fertize. Extra fertilized egg are frozen for possible later use.

[BUSHOUT]

17. This is a campaign 2004 topic....how? n/t

[Carni]

18. I guess I thought because stem cell research is an issue

That the bush's engaging in fertility treatments would be relative to the campaign (silly me)

If it's in the wrong forum complain and get it moved.

[BUSHOUT]

20. Are fertility treatments related to the stem cell issue...

in the sense that anyone getting fertility treatment is using stem cells?

Perhaps I'm ignorant about it so help me understand the relationship between the two. I know one of Kerrys arguments about stem cells is they could be grown from fertility clinic samples that would otherwise be garbaged, but that's a departure from the fertility treatment itself.

[RafterMan]

Not a departure

if the unused fertilized eggs would otherwise be "garbaged".

But I don't really know what happens to them. Do they stay frozen forever?

[IdaBriggs]

36. The families have to make that decision.

Average cost = $500 per year.

[BUSHOUT]

42. Yes, a departure.

An egg, by itself, is not what the fundies call "life" (although some probably do).
In order to get stem cells, the egg would need to be fertilized.

Masterbating into a kleenex isn't destroying life in the book of most pro-lifers. I believe they call fertilization the beginning of life.

Embryonic stem cells would require fertilization. The items being garbaged from a fertility clinic COULD be used to produce embryonic stem cells, which is the crime. But these items are generally NOT fertalized.

[Carni]

48. It depends on what kind of treatment Laura had

Here are Bush's own comments-- If Laura didn't have a treatment where there were fertilized eggs placed in cold storage, then it only proves him a hypocrite to the extent that apparently his "creator" didn't want HIM to create.

If there were fertilized eggs kept in cold storage from the Bush's then where are they now? (obviously expired, freezer burned, or whatever at this point and not fit for implantation)

If the Bush's had extra frozen embryos floating around and they allowed them to "expire" then that certainly makes him a hypocrite in my book.

By his standards they never should have been created in the first place, at least that's the way I see it.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:yZplYzBNh9sJ:www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/08/20010809-2.html+george+bush+on+stem+cell+research&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

"And while we must devote enormous energy to conquering disease, it is equally important that we pay attention to the moral concerns raised by the new frontier of human embryo stem cell research. Even the most noble ends do not justify any means"

"I also believe human life is a sacred gift from our Creator. I worry about a culture that devalues life, and believe as your President I have an important obligation to foster and encourage respect for life in America and throughout the world. And while we're all hopeful about the potential of this research, no one can be certain that the science will live up to the hope it has generated."

[RafterMan]

52. But they are fertilized

More eggs are fertilized than are actually used, as a backup if the first ones don't take. At least that is my understanding, and Ida's posts seem to confirm this.

It is those fertilized eggs people are talking about. Are the Bushes paying the $500/year to keep them frozen forever? Did they donate them all to other couples? Maybe. But if they're not, if they just had them destroyed, then the stem cell position Bush has taken seems pretty empty.

Again, this would depend on the specific procedure. And I'm not sure it makes good campaign talk at this stage.

[Carni]

54. I think the only value to it is...

That while Bush spews his ideology and mandates for OTHERS...when he needed the assistance of science, he sought it out.

But you are absolutely right I don't think there is any way to prove what type of treatments she had...unless there's an old interview floating around out there, where one of them talks about the treatments and so far I am not finding anything!

[liberal N proud]

27. But that is different, Only the chosen people can have them

The bush's being chosen and all get what ever they want.

[yo-yo-ma]

33. a brief clarification of the science of fertility treatment

Infertility is defined as the inability to conceive after 12 months of trying to. There are also women who have recurrent pregnancy losses which is slightly different. I f women with infertility presents for treatment, both she and her partner are evaluated. Infertility is caused by hormonal anovulation (30%), fallopian tubes blocked (20%) usually secondary to prior infection, "male factor" ie sperm (20%), or unknown. The treatment depends on the causality of infertility - surgery for blocked tubes, and "fertility drugs" -- medicine to cause ovulation for hormonal factors. This medicine, usually clomiphene, does lead to a slightly higher rate of twinning.
IVF - assisted reproduction techniques are completely different. First of all they are not covered by insurance and cost about $10,000 or so per cycle. They involve the use of various medicines to hyperstimulate the ovary such that many eggs can be harvested. Then there are different techniques for combining the ovum/egg with sperm sometimes involving injecting the sperm into the egg. Several embryos are then grown to about the eight cell stage and then several are implanted in the uterus. Because usually more than one embryo is implanted, this process commonly leads to multiple births. The cells of the embryo - the ones implanted, the ones left in the lab, the ones we came from - all are considered stem cells, because they have the potential to develop into any of the multitude of different cells that make up our body.

Hope this clarifies some questions

[Carni]

41. Yes, thanks

I guess as a talking point this wouldn't fly, because there is no way of finding out what type of treatment Laura Bush had...

Although I can certainly see Kerry throwing a zinger out there such as "Without science and the help of a fertility expert this President would not have been able to have his lovely daughters"

Or something to that effect...all I am trying to drive at is the hypocrisy of bush's stances on science.

[yo-yo-ma]

53. This administration is all hubris and hypocrisy

Science has never been as threatened as it is now, since perhaps the time of Galileo or something.

As for Laura's fertility treatment -- hard to know, but I'd imagine she had clomiphene to induce ovulation. Although she may have had IUI -- in utero insemination. The semen from Geogre would have been collected in the office, then washed, veiwed under a microscope, then placed via a thin pipelle into Laura's uterus.

'nuff said

[fob]

72. With all I've seen about the bush*s I would be unsurprised to find out

Laura's "fertility treatment" was in reality george's. Remember this was years before he quit drugging and boozing, and a low sperm count is an effect of some drugs.

This is exactly the kind of story that could win some real journalist a huge award.

[Placebo]

56. Eh, who cares.

:shrug:

[grasswire]

58. I'd like to know...

...what happened to that child that was in the final stage of adoption proceedings by Laura-George.

[Carni]

59. I hadn't thought of that

Good point

[Vickers]

63. Probably working swing shift at a WalMart

Boy, they sure missed the lottery, huh?

:eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

65. Not from the Edna Gladney Home....

That's the Neiman Marcus of Texas adoption services. The kid went to a prosperous family & probably was lucky not to be the "adopted" Bush.

[Vickers]

67. True...in any case, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek

I'd almost rather be working swing shift at WalMart ON MY OWN than be connected to the BFEE in any fashion.

:P

[951]

70. This might explain why they don't look alike...

and nothing like their "father".