Aside from the "R", What's Wrong with Arnold?

[RowWellandLive]

Of course I am a moderate Dem (far right wing here but centrist in the "real world" LOL). Anyway, I find myself actually agreeing with Arnold on many things. Of course he hasn't been specific but so far there isn't much to dislike. He's quite socially liberal, pro-choice, pro civil unions, etc. I think even the most liberal here can't find any fault on social issues. He's fiscally conservative which I also agree with. I don't think that taxing businesses more is a way to create job growth. I actually agree with Arnold more than Cruz being a social liberal, fiscal conservative.

As for that Proposition that was against benefits for illegals (forgot the number), well most Californians were for that too. I symphathize with that, if someone comes here illegally why should everyone have to pay? What good is the law then? The better approach would be to relax immigration laws. I think that most people believe the law should have some meaning and that is not an outrageous position. Again, most Californians agreed.

The fact he has no political experience doesn't bother me either. Neither did John Corzine or Mark Dayton. He has shown himself to be a shrewd businessman and his tax returns reveal a lot of admirable charitable giving.

As a Jew his Nazi father means zilch and we should drop that. His sex interview is a big so what.

I have never voted for a Republican so I don't have to make a choice here. If I did I might stick with Cruz simply because he is a Dem even though I probably agree with Arnold more. At least so far without the specifics. My question is, what do we hate about Arnold aside he's a Repuke. There's a part of me that thinks it's a good thing to have more R's like Arnold and move that party to the center and give less influence to the far right. Wouldn't that be better for the country?

Have at it!!!

[graywarrior]

1. I can't understand him when he talks

.

[billbuckhead]

2. If Swartz was a good guy he wouldn't have a "R" beside his name.

If Arnold is so independent, then why doesn't he run as an independent? No independent is Arnie because already Arnie has a meetup with Kenny Boy.

[fob]

74. I think thst sums it up nicely. The "R" is THE problem, look no

further.

I agree with the MM stance, but the R means he will be beholden to the Powers that BFEE

I agree with a lot of his social issue stands, but that R means I don't trust him to go against the Powers that BFEE

That R means terrible things these days, and even though he appears to support socially liberal ideals, the Powers that BFEE, took the same route. They were so untenable that had to actually, openly declare that they were 'compassionate' conservatives because conservatism, the religion behind the modern day R, is wholly without merit for compassion. It is based on an open-market business based philosophy. The problem being that business is a "for-profit" venture only. Compassion is a COST of doing business and as such is to be reduced/eliminated less the bottom line be harmed. aRnold's first reason given for running was that he was so wealthy he coudn't be bought. He needed NO special interest money. Reports today show he donated $2 million of his own money, but has raised over $1 million from wealthy donors! He has a website up to collect donations, why? Just because he is wealthy enough not to NEED any special interest money, doesn't mean he isn't/won't be influenced by special interests.

Where is his plan to reverse deficit? Surrounding yourself with businessmen who will come up with the plan for you because you're too inarticulate to convey or unclear on the subject enough to discuss sounds just like another R* in DC. How do you rate that guy's performance?

fob

[fob]

75. That sums it up nicely. The R is THE problem, look no further.

I agree with the MM stance, but the R means he will be beholden to the Powers that BFEE

I agree with a lot of his social issue stands, but that R means I don't trust him to go against the Powers that BFEE

That R means terrible things these days, and even though he appears to support socially liberal ideals, the Powers that BFEE, took the same route. They were so untenable that had to actually, openly declare that they were 'compassionate' conservatives because conservatism, the religion behind the modern day R, is wholly without merit for compassion. It is based on an open-market business based philosophy. The problem being that business is a "for-profit" venture only. Compassion is a COST of doing business and as such is to be reduced/eliminated less the bottom line be harmed. aRnold's first reason given for running was that he was so wealthy he coudn't be bought. He needed NO special interest money. Reports today show he donated $2 million of his own money, but has raised over $1 million from wealthy donors! He has a website up to collect donations, why? Just because he is wealthy enough not to NEED any special interest money, doesn't mean he isn't/won't be influenced by special interests.

Where is his plan to reverse deficit? Surrounding yourself with businessmen who will come up with the plan for you because you're too inarticulate to convey or unclear on the subject enough to discuss sounds just like another R* in DC. How do you rate that guy's performance?

fob

[Clete]

3. I guess you're not a woman.

His sexism and uninvited breast fondling turns me off even though I haven't been victimized.

But even a guy should balk at the the fact that he believes the proles need someone to guide them and lead them to what is good for them. It smacks of pure facism to me.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

5. Jon Stewart on Arnold

"Bush is happy to have Arnold because he can read Bush's civil rights policies in the original German"

[Cheswick2.0]

11. LOL, I love John Stewart

what a perfect joke, I think I will add it to my sig line.

[mitchtv]

26. Bill Maher said that

.

[Catch22Dem]

59. Mitch beat me to it

Maher said that.

[RowWellandLive]

8. I am a woman

but where is the evidence of uninvited breast fondling? I've heard only unsubstantiated gossip which I don't hold against anybody.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a prole?

[Clete]

16. Proletariat or one of us working class, unwashed masses.

Arnold's groping is well known around the Hollywood crowd and I am not talking about the celebrities, but about the blue collar workers who work on films, the cameramen, electricians, carpenters, make-up, wardrobe people, etc.. It has also been mentioned on various message boards and blogs on the internet, including here at DU.

[Breezy du Nord]

20. Don't know much about breast fondling but,

proles considered "lower class" people (I wouldn't know that either if I hadn't read 1984)

[YouNotMyBoss]

10. How much difference in evidence between Clinton and Arnie is there?

I'm talking about groping accusations and proof thereof.

[CastorTroy]

15. Documented evidence

as opposed to discredited allegations traced to Dickey Scaife or someother nutbag.

But feel free to wave Clinton's cock around when you need an easy debating point, its practically expected.

[YouNotMyBoss]

27. I asked a question because I'm curious about the evidence

Do you have a link or is your "clinton's cock' the only thing you have to toss around? Someone else mentioned groping - not me.

[CastorTroy]

34. were we go . .

http://eightballmagazine.com/diatribes/volume01/diatribes024/diatribes475-494/diatribes493.htm

[Clete]

23. Well, there isn't any testimony like Clinton had to

give, but give it time, I am sure someone will come forward.

[CastorTroy]

13. I'm still puzzled how this is not a bigger deal . . .

The knee-padded whore corps that babble on TV couldn't shut up about the rape allegations lodged against Predident Clinton by that discredited dishrag Juanita Broderick. And know we have VISUAL documentation of Arnie grabbing a women's ass uninvited(the clip from Britain's Big Breakfast program) and nobody mentions it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

14. And even a guy can be offended

by fondling and groping.

True, by definition I can't empathize, but I can sure as hell balk at not only his power-trip-lead-the-sheep statements, but also his unwelcome sexual exploits.

For what it's worth...

[whathappened]

4. ya where

was this boy king last year when davis was elected , why now is he running all of a sudden , has some one promissed him something in the future in his golden years

[AWD]

6. Because...

....he's set up to be the main recipient of good fortune from yet anoyther right-wing power grab.

A friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

7. Why should everyone have to pay?

It was Prop 187 you're referring to.

You asked, why should everyone (in the state of CA, via taxes) have to pay for services for illegal aliens?

You should have to pay because they're making your life less expensive. How much more would your fruits and vegetables (and prepared products that come from them) cost if illegal migrant workers weren't picking them for far below minimum wage?

How much more would your meal cost at a restaurant? Same applies. Illegal aliens do a great deal of the work that we don't want to do, the jobs no one wants. And they do it for a great deal less money, and no benefits.

So you're exploiting these people (yeah, I know that'll make you hit the roof, but whatever); I'm exploiting them too. It's time we do our part to make things right.

Also, you had ancestors that came to this country in order to try to find a better life. Why begrudge these people? First and second-generation immigrants (regardless of their legal status) are generally more productive and prodigious than the rest of us. Some study, somewhere, no link, someone help me out please.


Oh, and about the main thrust of your post: Shwarzeneggar is an idiot. I'm sure other good folks will address that in great depth, but I did want to tack my condensed version to the end of this missive.

[RowWellandLive]

17. I think it smacks of expolitation

to have illegals doing jobs that no one else would do for money that no one else would accept. I'd rather pay more and have people picking fruits for a living wage and benefits. I'm happy to have immigrants here but not so I can buy things cheap. We should relax the immigration laws and not exploit those who seek a better life.

As for Arnold being an idiot, I don't see any evidence of that. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make him stupid. Why is he an idiot?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

31. We partially agree

I'd much rather "legitimate" these people, give them work visas, give them medical insurance. But of course that means more money and as you're aware, California is a little short on that right now.

So I wasn't pushing for social revolution, not because I don't agree with the concept, but because I don't think it will be happening in California anytime soon and I was using the existing model instead.

I guess that what I was really trying to do was to point out the hypocrisy of some who are virulently anti-immigrant while at the same time benefitting from their services.

Back to Arnold. I was being brief, I was just getting my vote in the 'anti' column. I think Arnold is an idiot 1) for running as a Republican with the stances he's (sort of) taken, 2) he insulted my intelligence and the intelligence of every other citizen of the state when he was asked about budget specifics and he claimed that people don't care about numbers. It was an idiotic thing to say.

I'll even be magnanimous and say he's a political idiot. I suppose he's had a very good movie career and possibly he's a good businessman, but he's completely out of his depth when it comes to governing the state of California. Because he chose to jump in unprepared I think of him as an idiot, at least politically speaking.

After George W Bush, the last thing we need is more feel-good generalizations (city on the hill...what the hell is that?). I've heard enough mushy-mouthed lies from Bush to last me a lifetime. I'd much rather hear someone talking about the tough measures that will need to be taken to get the books balanced again.

I hope I fleshed that out just a little more for you.

[RowWellandLive]

Thanks for the good post

We agree on a lot of things. I just don't think that Arnold's lack of specifics is "political idiocy," it's more political calculus. The more you say, the more people you piss off.

I've come to believe that detailed numbers and specifics are usually as worthless as generalized "mushy-mouthness." They never stick to their specific plans anyway. Even when they want to, with a legislature and politics involved it's impossible. I just try to get a sense of where they are coming from and go from there. You attempt to discern their priorities and how they will govern, where their compromises will and won't be. I just don't think Arnold will be that bad. In fact I think he'd be O.K. I like that he has Buffet advising him. He seems pretty middle of the road and that appeals to me.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RowWellandLive]

32. I'm a "her"

and with a lousy 300 posts it's hardly my goddamn job.

[RowWellandLive]

28. I'm still here!

I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote Republican since I never have. Just wondering if those that dislike Arnold so much would vote for him if he was a Dem or Indy. I think he could easily belong to either party.

I appreciate your skeptisim of me. I'm just not as partisian as most. Just the average, middle of the road, left-leaning centrist. You need us.

[Trajan]

67. 'Party' matters ...

Given Arnold's choice of policies: .... I'd say he'd make a decent Democrat .... But dont we already HAVE a Democratic governor in CA ? ...

Arnold is running as a GOP: .... I do not intend to vote the GOP in power in CA just because one member has liberal views ...

After all: .. his friends in the GOP are damned conservatives .... FUCK them .....

I think the BETTER question is: .. WHY would a Republican vote FOR Arnold ? ..

[spooky3]

77. RoW, I think you've raised good points...

and I had wondered the same things.

One concern I have is that he's told people he won't raise their taxes and he won't cut education spending. I think he needs to be clear about how exactly he plans to solve the massive budget problems within these constraints (and others). Maybe a tax increase should be left on the table as an option. Makes you wonder if he is lying and will later rescind this promise or if he just doesn't "get" that there is no free lunch (or some other alternative). Reminds me of Bush Sr. too much.

[jiacinto]

12. His arrogance and ego

That's what I have against Arnold. Also, if he wins, it gives Bush a base in California come 2004.

[RowWellandLive]

38. The Bush base part

is a sensible reason. Although I don't think there is any chance that Bush will win CA. He didn't win lots of states with Repuke govenors last time, NY, PA, MI, etc. No way will he win CA in '04.

He does seem arrogant and egotistical, but then again most politicians do. I think it's a requirement when seeking high public office!

[jiacinto]

41. I think it's realistic

But Arnold's arrogance is more than I've seen in a long time.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. you are a moderate Dem?

I always thought you were one of our visiting republicans. Mind you I am not calling you a freeper or disruptor. I am simply saying that I thought you part of the small group of repubs who post here and are accepted by management and posters.

[RowWellandLive]

42. Think what you want

I'm a socially liberal, fiscal conservative Democrat. I just seem like a Republican to someone as far to the left as you. Thanks for not calling me a freeper or disrupter. You would never do that, right?

There are many Dems that think as I do. Without us you cannot win elections. We have a lot of common ground and should unite where we can. I think it's interesting and informative to explore Arnold's cross over appeal, which he surely does have. I do not want this board or our party to become as ridiculous and narrow minded as Freerepublic. If we don't win we cannot govern.

[Cheswick2.0]

43. excuse me while I think what I like

and while I am doing that, maybe you could tell me exactly how far left I am.

I think you are a little confused as to when crossover appeal is a good thing and when it is not. I am involved in politics to win,not to hand power to the republicans. If Arnold is so fabulously liberal he should be running as a Democrat. But he is not, he is a republican and can not be allowed to wing CA.

[haymaker]

19. Because he's an egomaniac,

who will be used as a tool by the Bushites to help the get the monkey back in the White House.

Picture Arnold and the monkey appearing together time and time again spewing the re-elect spew.

Fucking Duuuuuuhhhhh.

[Ein]

21. Republican...Actor...California...Governor.... deja vu, n/t

[mndemocrat_29]

22. Aside from the fact that he is a Repuke

He will give a base to Hard Right contenders in 2004. He'll help Bill Simon and George W. Bush and will give them a base.

Additionally, if he is so "moderate" and "independent" (which I seriously doubt), then why is he running as a Repuke. If he wants to be a independent voice, then he should run as an independent candidate. I'm betting he didn't because he wants Karl Rove to steal him this seat and he really is a hard right nutjob.

There are far, far better candidates in this race (two of which are named Cruz and Arianna).

[kentuck]

25. Democrats would never put Arnold up as a candidate....

Because he would be crucified by the Repubs..

[mndemocrat_29]

29. Mark Dayton did have political experience

He was our state Auditor.

[RowWellandLive]

44. I didn't know that

thanks. But my point is that there are probably lots of people with no political experience that would be supported here if their positions were right. I just think the lack of experience is not a theme that will resonate. It just sounds like a lame response.

[Journeyman]

30. I believe Schwarznegger. . .

should have the opportunity to make a run for Governor, and I look forward to his involvement in the next primary and general election campaigns. There are some aspects of the man that could have a positive impact in a full campaign against the Golden State's conservative Republican candidates, certain moderate tendencies that may have a mollifying influence on the Republican electorate as a whole. But let him do it in the runup to the next general election, so that we can all get the full measure of the man and make a reasoned, informed choice. It is this travesty of a recall, this bastardization of the process that disturbs me, and Schwarznegger's attempt to capitalize on this situation and "buy an election on the cheap," offends my every sense of Democracy, fair play, and ethical beliefs. For this reason, I will vote No on the Recall. And because I believe the established, legitimately elected government should retain control of the State, I will vote Yes on Bustamante, so that even if my first choice is dealt with in ill favor, I will still see the most reasonable continuation of the 2002 electoral process.

[Clete]

33. Yes, it is a cheap way for anyone

to try to steal an office from a legally elected Governor. It shows me that they don't care anything about California or it's people.

[RowWellandLive]

47. He could never win in a primary

in either party. Most politicians I support could not. I can't blame him for taking advantage of a situation he had no part in creating.

I have mixed feelings about the recall in general. It's a law that's been on the books since 1911 so I'm not sure that it's a "bastardization" or "unfair." It's been attempted against Govs of both parties and failed in the past. There must be some genuine and not simply partisian disdain towards Davis for it to get this far now. The time to complain about this provision was before the fact, not after. The existing provision does not require any malfeasance or lawbreaking so it is being used properly. It is "buying an election on the cheap," but it is the law that I heard no one object to prior.

I have to say that there is a part of me that likes this "lemon law." Perhaps it is a good thing to be able to get rid of politicians that campaign one way and govern another. I'm not saying that is the case here, but in theory. Maybe it would make politicians more accountable and less "god like." Perhaps the standard should be higher, although since it's been attempted in CA many times and has not been done in a very long time the standard is high enough. I'm not sure about that.

[maxanne]

35. these Arnold threads are a hoot

the right wing is doing a good job, to have a bunch of democrats defending a cartoon character like Arnold as a candidate. WTF is anyone sticking up for him for? He's a Republican!! Are the freepers over there debating the positive aspects of the Kucinich candidacy? Hell no - they're calling him a pinko - while we debate the positive aspects of a musclebound oaf who's had waaaay too much plastic surgery.

[robbedvoter]

39. Excellent post! Bravo!

His fan club is very active on DU these days. (and they just discovered the GD forum today)

[mitchtv]

36. the problem is

he is inexperienced and has assembled a group of "advisors" including Pete Wison and Geo Schultz(bechtel). He will be nothing more than a puke figurehead like Dukmajian and will follow his marching orders. Do the secret meetings with Ken Lay bother you? they do me.As for prop 187 many supported it, but not the workers(teachers, cops, nurses) who were mandated to become immigration tools/snitches. .we should be treating undocs civilly or throw them out. they are doing work most americans won't do.As long as they are here they are helping.Wait till you start getting puke appointments to the coastal commission and the PUC, you'll be sorry then.

[robbedvoter]

37. Uh, besides wanting to hijack a democratic election, there's this:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0817-07.htm 
 
Published on Sunday, August 17, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

Ahnuld, Ken Lay, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Gray Davis

by Jason Leopold

  It bothers me when an immigrant wants to stick it to other immigrants. It bothers me too that he keeps Daddy's company.
His attitude towards women bothers me.
His chutzpa on deciding who can be married and who cannot bothers me.
That W said "He'd make a great governor" bothers me to no end.
His lies bother me.
And, as a "moderate Dem" (ahem) you should be bothered by his willingness to raise taxes (real estate and income)
But most of all, it's the "R" that bothers me.
Why? Because REPUBLICANS STEAL ELECTIONS. Put that in your moderate pipe and smoke it.

[DavidNY]

40. It's not just Arnold's Nazi _father_ (which I agree is not his fault)...

but Arnold's friendly relationship with Kurt Waldheim. (Waldheim, for those who don't know, was a former Wehrmacht intelligence officer, eventually linked to Nazi war crimes against Jews and Allied prisoners of war and because of this put on a US "watch list" of people who are forbidden to enter the US. He served as UN Secretary General before his past was completely exposed, and President of Austria even afterwards. See http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/26865p-25537c.html .) Even after Waldheim's past was exposed, Arnold publicly showed him friendship and support-- I believe he gave toasts at a public birthday celebration or somesuch in the not-too-distant past.

This doesn't mean Arnold is a Nazi; the most plausible explanations I've heard have to do with Waldheim being a family friend and with Arnold's plans at the time to possibly run for office in Austria (where a lot of people feel that Waldheim was wrongly made a pariah). But it does represent insensitivity to how evil the Nazis were, or at least how evil one particular Nazi was. Someone unwilling to disown a man like Waldheim is not someone I'd want to vote for.

[VermontDem2004]

45. The problem with Arnold is he is trying to have it both ways

Hannity:What is your stance on abortion
:ahnold:I am pro-choice but against Partial Birth Abortion
Hannity:What is your stance on gay rights
ahnold:I am for gay rights but I am against gay marriage.
Hannity:What is your stance on legalization.
ahnold:I am for medical marijuana but against legalization.
He is also undecided on immigration and affirmative action. Name 1 issue where he is solidly liberal or solidly repuke. From what I know, Arnold is not trying to piss anyone off.

[RowWellandLive]

48. I mostly agrre

with all of that.

I am pro-choice but have mixed feelings about Partial Birth Abortion. I do think they're mostly performed only when necessary so it is a bit of a red herring. It does slightly give me the willies though.

I am for gay rights and civil unions but against gay marriage (not sure intellectually why but I'm not there yet).

I am for legalization of marijuana but since no declared candidate of either party is there this is a non-issue (I did like that Gary Johnson guy, where'd he go?). Here he has taken the same stance as all the Dems we support do.

I have mixed feelings about AA as well as immigration. Most Americans do.

These positions sum up my feelings nicely and I'm not trying to "have it both ways." I just naturally see all sides and see things in a nuanced way. Arnold has centrist appeal here. It might be calculated but since I agree I do not see it as anything but heartfelt.

[VermontDem2004]

46. Let me add

As a Jew his Nazi father means zilch

I don't care about that, but you should care about this

Schwarzenegger’s Nazi problem

Here’s a question Jay Leno forgot to ask Arnold Schwarzenegger when he announced his candidacy for governor of California on last night’s “Tonight Show”: “Will you renounce your support for Kurt Waldheim?”

http://www.msnbc.com/news/949666.asp?0cv=CB20

Read the entire article

[RowWellandLive]

49. I read it

and it is disturbing. It seems as if there was a certain loyalty there that deterred him from doing the right thing. However, I just don't believe he has any Nazi sympathies. He has gone out of his way to help the Simon Wiesenthal Center way before he entered into politics. While his non-decouncement of Waldheim sucks, I truly don't detect any anti-semitism in him. If I did I would hate his guts. Loyalty and friendship can make a person rationalize lots of things. I can be overly sensitive to a fault on issues of anti-semitism but I don't detect it here. Maybe I should but I don't.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Even as a centrist, here are the points on which we can agree

He's quite socially liberal, pro-choice, pro civil unions, etc.

I'll give you that. He comes from Hollywood so he doesn't have the other stigmata that comes along with Republicans in your neck of the woods...I want to say you hail from Kansas or Missouri if I am correct but not certain.

As far as his attitude towards women, there is a life's worth or written words and Hollywood gossip but I have no idea if it is true and for most of it don't care but for I already had a President where sex was used to blacklist him for one relationship and many rumors by the party who now gives me Arnold the admitted gang banger Scwarzenegger. Would he get elected in your state to a leadership position? Why mine then?


He's fiscally conservative which I also agree with. I don't think that taxing businesses more is a way to create job growth. I actually agree with Arnold more than Cruz being a social liberal, fiscal conservative.

Assumes facts not in evidence. His advisors are from Pete Wilson's team. I lived here when Pete Wilson was governor and before that ad Deukmejian.

Work Comp reforms (which I realize you did not bring up) were cited as the reaason the state was not attractive to business then as were high taxes. Tax cuts were created and comp reforms were enacted based on what was later proven to be entirely inaccurate data based on the series of award winning articles by a REPUBLICAN REPORTER. Businesses played other states against us and left anyway.

When Wilson was governor, deficits were quite bad, and the budget was just as contentious. At one point the state ran out of funds and had to pay bills with IOU's.

This group of people cut taxes, didn't fund and as a result, workers compensation cases for legitimate injuries were backlogged for two years.
The Workers compensation appeals board's mail was backlogged several months with several feet of unopened mail due to understaffing.

This is the Republican answer to spending on items the citizens want...don't fund them. That isn't fiscal management, that's MIS management.

So this is the team Arnold would bring in.

Between Wilson's term and Davis' term we got the 2000 census and learned that we had 36 million people.

Taxing businesses more is not the case. Taxing them adequately is.

A couple of BIG for instances are:
Hollywood is a big industry. Their work is seasonal. Every year when the season ends, thousands of workers collect unemployment EVERY YEAR..so this drains state funds that are paid into by EVERYBODY.

Businesses can fight a workers compensation case where they ARE LIABLE because an injury DID happen. During this time if the worker is disabled they collect from STATE DISABILITY fund. This is funds paid by every worker's paycheck in the state of California. At the end, when the company is found to be liable for the injury, they settle the claim against the state disability fund (EDD from which unemployment also comes) for pennies on the dollar..again depleting state funds for which they would otherwise be liable.

As for that Proposition that was against benefits for illegals (forgot the number), well most Californians were for that too. I symphathize with that, if someone comes here illegally why should everyone have to pay? What good is the law then? The better approach would be to relax immigration laws. I think that most people believe the law should have some meaning and that is not an outrageous position. Again, most Californians agreed.

Protecting our national borders is the duty of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. We pay in far greater in tax revenues than the state gets back for these services. Denying basic subsistance benefits to anyone IS inhumane.

The facts on illegal immigration are missing something very important about undocumented workers. They pay INTO services that they usually DON'T get back such as the social security fund.

If one denies benefits to undocumented workers one actually increases the desire of many industries to use them since it reduces their liability.

On edit: Back to Arnold. We already have George Bush with a team of advisors who choose his every move because he can't govern. I rest my case on that one.

Two, he passed an after school program on the ballot initiative last year that has increased the NEED for funding so it can't be implemented...he has contributed to this mess.

The last point about Arnold is his meeting with Lay and Riordan but that isn't worth going into unless you know the details of our energy problems.

[RowWellandLive]

51. Well informed post

and I promise I will research and address all your points when I'm more awake. It's well past my bedtime now.

I do have to tell you that I'm from New Jersey and have never been to Kansas or Missoui in my life, although I am sure they are fine places.

Have a nice evening.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. OK then he might get elected there

:D

[RowWellandLive]

53. I doubt it

Stop keeping me awake with your funny retorts!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Whaaa no gangbanging?

From a state that as a model gave us Sopranos? :evilgrin:

[RowWellandLive]

55. Leave my state alone!!!

We have our faults but we're loveable too!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Love the lakes

hate the mosquitos..like getting in and out of Newark when I fly to NY ( hate Laguardia)

[Clete]

58. I know you read the LA Times but for those who don't

this article about his after school initiative also raises a lot of flags for me. I voted against Prop 49, not because I didn't like the idea, I actually loved it, but because of the way it was funded or rather the lack of funding. It's typical a Republican get the vote carrot by dangling it in front of the needy. "We will do these things for you, but nobody has to pay any taxes to fund them." Duh, most people do know simple arithmatic and two plus two still equals four.

For those who haven't read about it, here's the link.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop28aug28,1,5085308.story?coll=la-headlines-california

[ButterflyBlood]

57. Just a brief correction

Mark Dayton did have political experience, he was state auditor for a term.

[FredScuttle]

60. "Last Action Hero"

I want my money back....what a waste of 2 hours.

Also:

Hercules in New York
The Villain
Conan the Destroyer
Red Sonja
Red Heat
Junior
Eraser
Jingle All the Way
Batman & Robin
End of Days
The 6th Day
Collateral Damage
(Christ, this lummox has more turkeys than Butterball)


NO on the recall/YES on Bustamante

[Skittles]

61. HELLO, HE SERIALLY ASSAULTS WOMEN

FOR REAL, not that made-up shit from the CLINTON INQUISITION.

[Clete]

62. Thanks Skittles!

I was feeling all alone on this one. Even if he kept his hands to himself, he's definitely not a feminist sympathizer.

[RowWellandLive]

65. Please present proof

I have seen none so far. This crap is no more credible then the stuff against Clinton. What evidence do you have to claim it's FOR REAL? All this trash is as bogus and irrerelevant now as it was then. Take your battle to the issues because this stuff is surely a loser.

[Skittles]

66. OH BITE ME

What do you want me to do, get him to fondle me? When I was in England they showed him on TV GROPING A WOMAN who definitely did NOT INVITE IT - when he as getting INTERVIEWED on a MORNING TV SHOW. The guy is F***ING DISGUSTING.

[Clete]

73. Let me put it in perspective for you.

If there were rumors floating around that Hillary Clinton, Dianne Fienstein, Barbara Boxer, or Asa Hutchinson went around rubbing up against male subordinates, patting them on the butt, or grabbing their you-know-whats, you would be aghast. Of course the victims probably wouldn't want to file charges for fear of losing their jobs and endangering their future careers. Jobs on a movie set pay very well and it's very hard to get into the business to the point where you are working regularly.

Now in Arnold's case this isn't just one thing that happened, it's a regular thing that comes up in conversation when Arnold is being discussed with those who have worked on his movies. Remember with Clinton, what happened with Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones and Monica Lewinsky were rumors and would have remained so until they were put through the legal process by the Whitewater investigation and Ken Starr.

I have argued that for anything to stick to Arnold they are going to have to get sexual assault lawsuits filed against him and drag him through the courts. Although there has not been one yet that we know of, current rumors are that there will be such lawsuits filed in the future.

There is the video of the butt grabbing of the host of an English talk host pretty recently and the Oui article about gang banging that has surfaced and is pretty compelling evidence. The fact that he thought nothing about doing the butt grabbing on television for the world to see shows his mysoginism.

[KayLaw]

76. I feel the same

And just the butt grabbing is enough to turn me off. Once at work, a strange man grabbed me as I was walking past, lifted me off the ground, and kissed me hard on the cheek. Then he and his buddies started laughing like hyenas. It doesn't sound like a big deal but it made me feel like crap and I thoroughly despise any man who does that sort of thing to women!

[wabeewoman]

63. Isn't the key why Arnold isn't the right choice

aside from the fact he is repug(and all the other reasons people have given here)is that he is inexperienced? Why are people willing to elect a person with NO political experience to govern a state the size of California? Is he the best qualified candidate? Would you let someone who had never done a surgery operate on you? Do you want a boss who has no experience in your field, no apparent knowledge of how your systems works, and really no qualifications? A bigger question than 'what's wrong with Arnold' is 'what's right with Arnold?, why him? is there no one else qualified?'

[David__77]

64. What you're agreeing with are sound bites, not policy recommendations.

He's an opportunist who's already lied, stating he won't accept "special interest" contributions, and then collecting from corporations and people with business before the state. Bottom line, I think people of all ideological perusasions should be wary of him for his prevarications and platitudes. I mean, what policies has he recommended? He's so vague...

[onehandle]

68. Arnold is Irrelevant...

The problem is the theft of California.

We cannot let Rove get conrol of the state.

[Trajan]

69. The bottom line ....

Rowwellandlive has EVERY RIGHT to be a socially liberal and fiscally conservative Democrat who likes Arnold .... Have at it ...

Feel free to vote for Arnold .... if thats your burning desire ...

I certainly WONT .... and I consider myself to be a fiscal moderate ...

The 'R' next to his name means everything ....

One might ask: ... WHAT MAKES a Democrat a centrist ? .... WHICH positions does he hold that makes him 'centrist' ? ...

Are the positions of DIFFERENT centrists identical ? ... do they ALL believe the EXACT same things on the myriad policies that form the party platforms ? ....

Not in the LEAST: .... SOME moderates are social conservatives but fiscally liberal ... SOME are PRO Choice: some are ANTI Choice ... SOME are PRO Environment, some are against environmental regulation ...

In the end: ... As a party, we cannot pander to the edges, since it ignores the thrust of the general philosophy of the party as a whole: ...

I am a Democrat BECAUSE it is a progressive party: BECAUSE it holds PRO Choice, PRO Environment, PRO Education and PRO Worker philosophies .... Though some Democrats may NOT agree with every plank: we must admit that is THEIR choice which they can freely make, ... and move on with them by not pandering to their differences, but finding areas of consensus ....

A moderate can be JUST as unhappy in either party: .... trying to please them with policy is a losing game ....

Its YOUR choice, Rowwellandlive .... You want to vote for Arnold ? .. feel free ..... but dont expect US to simply because He seems 'moderate' ....

He is GOP, and I can assure you: ... His party is NOT moderate ...

[Terwilliger]

70. no no no...not Arnold...AHHH-nold

say it the way HE says it...AHHH-nold

[spooky3]

78. Could we try to find something else to make fun of?

Anyone who speaks with an accent because he or she is multilingual deserves respect, not derision, in my opinion.

[SkepticalThomas]

71. What's wrong with Arnold

Just that fact that he is in favor of school sponsored prayer is enough for me.

That position shows a distinct lack of understanding on the importance of the separation of religion and government.

He would never get my vote.

Tom

[Terwilliger]

72. he is?

not only is AHH-nold a fence-sitter, but it seems he's dangerously schizoid as well.

[KamaAina]

79. He was in on a secret meeting with Kenny Boy Lay

and other energy robber barons. And he and his R buddies are blaming Gray Davis for CA's energy crisis?! (pot kettle black)

The R makes a bigger difference in the recall election than it did, say, for Mikey Moneybags Bloomberg in NYC. In the recall, there is no question of differential ballot access for D's and R's vs. I's, G's, etc. All candidates, of whatever party, go on the same ballot. So, Ahh-nuld could just have easily run as an Independent. What's he getting out of the R affiliation? You tell me. Backing from Rove & Co.?

[Demobrat]

80. He's against equal rights for gays.

Which is enough for me.

[Demobrat]

81. He's against equal rights for gays.

Isn't that enough?

[Generic Other]

82. Arnold is a NO-NO Boy

Arnold is not an American and never will be as long as he insists on holding dual citizenship. Since he feels it necessary to retain his Austrian citizenship, I don't believe he is more than half American. People who refuse to renounce their "fatherland" have suspect loyalties as far as I am concerned. It makes him a security risk. Should such a man be given any sort of security clearance? I don't think it's an unfair question. Foreign nationals (from former hostile nations no less) should not be allowed to hold office in this country.

As I recall, all the Japanese Americans were asked two loyalty oath questions during WWII: Will you renounce Japanese citizenship and loyalty to the emperor? Will you swear allegiance to and fight for the US? Those who answered "NO" were incarcerated in high security camps separate from their families in the re-location camps. Even the Japanese American community in the other camps shunned them for lack of patriotism. And they were considered enemy combatants. None of them were elected by Republicans to high office.

But Arnold is allowed to answer "No" with impunity in the very state where the Japanese American "No-No Boys" were incarcerated. Only now they will elect him governor when he is not even an American by birth or by choice. Half American doesn't cut it with me.

I may be of half Japanese ancestry, but I am 100% American by birth and by choice.

Yet, I have spent my life demanding that other Americans (mostly white Republicans) acknowledge that I am as much of an American as they are, not half Japanese by virtue of blood.

I think I am entitled to demand that all politicians in this country sign the same loyalty oath Japanese Americans were once forced to sign. All American politicians should be 100% American by choice.

The half Austrian Arnold Schwartzenegger should not be elected governor of California until he proves he's 100% American by choice.
Our country should not be in the hands of "NO-NO" Boys.

[Kamika]

83. This is what i think, pretty much in your seat

Im also pretty centrist like you. But i Dont want Arnold just because of the fact he considers himself a "republican". Now lets not fool ourselfes.. if Arnold had run as a Democrat we would have jumped of joy. And even IF Arnolds agenda is pretty liberal the fact hes a republican would mean the republicans would gain ALOT of prestige, and even voters for the presidential election because they would say

"oh look arnold is republican and hes cool, so ill vote republican"

Thats why i DONT want Arnold.

[Clete]

85. I wouldn't have jumped for joy even if he was a Democrat.

He is not good governor material.

[Liberal Veteran]

84. He thinks gay marriage should be between a man and a woman...

:eyes:

[rocktivity]

86. His lack of political experience sure bothers me

because this is a RECALL election. If Davis is doing such an awful job that he needs to be replaced prematurely, why in the world would I want a replacement with no experience and someone else's ideas? I'd want someone who can hit the ground running, and be able to give me specific ideas about how he's going to do what Davis didn't. Bustamante has done exactly that, and some of us criticized him. I thought it made him look like a qualified, experienced leader.


rocknation